A universe at war

[Stygian_Gaming]

I'd probably engage more in PVP with a system like that.

Sounds like it could be fun/interesting to play as some mob type against other people playing as some mob type.

• PVE: Maybe synth scans could add more variance of mob types to play in PVP.
• PVP: Maybe the winner of the match essentially has a synth scan of the loser.

Both would offer a path to play as different mob types.

DCUO had a PVP sort of gameplay mode where you could play as different characters (other than your own).

If it's not a forced system, I personally don't see a problem and may even keep me playing longer on a given night where I may have knocked out what I wanted in PVE for the session. 

I wouldn't put it past their "outside the box" thinking for new things either and well within their means to do this.

Edit - Damn, I just noticed my first forum post after all this time playing.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Stygian_Gaming

[(XBOX)CFE Vulari]

       Warframe has always been a balance of PvP endgame mixed with PvE grinds and events. Having a competitive endgame allows the content to remain fresh. Gives PvE grind a purpose, more than just bragging rights. Also allows clans to have a real reason to join an alliance. Solar Rails were objective based PvP that effected the PvE grind. That balance is the harmony we are lacking. Also, you'd rarely get into drawn out pvp fights as if you know how to approach a rail run in a manner in which there is too little time.  Learning these skills and methods are the same as PvE events, each require thought and teamwork. 

       True, there are a large community of solo PvE runners who just enjoy easy bot wipes with OP godlike builds (usually created by PvP players but that's ok) And don't really participate in Events. Which is about 95% of the content you have available. Clearly this antisocial game play doesn't require much teamwork or actual skill.I'm just confused at their argument to remove any competitive nature or endgame, as that is what PvP (done properly -.-) brings to the table. We lost a large community of competitive players when conclave replaced rails as the PvP game mode for warframe. Where Solar Rails were unique and difficult, conclave is much the same as PvE running routes with OP builds. No real teamwork required. That of course doesn't have to be that way, but because of certain decisions, that is what we have.

      And acting like your region chat is as toxic as it is because of the amount of PvP players, get real. We're all the same and we all bleed red. This talk about PvP players being a "different breed" "get rid of them all together" That just sounds... bigoted.  You don't need to get rid of us to play by yourself. And I hope DE, the makers of Unreal, will remember that PvP content is never ending. 

[(XBOX)CFE Vulari]

3 hours ago, Mithrah said:

Fair criticism for sure. But that's what the suggestion is looking to solve. If the PVP mode doesnt take mods or warframes into account, its balance won't change PVE content at all. Also, a lot of games are designed as PvE games upfront but then add successful PVP content (Fortnite and Gears of War being premier examples) 

Heres the thing that players who are staunchly against playing PVP are overlooking. If you attract more players because you offer a more complete package, then the game will be more successful, which in turn means more meaningful content for the PVE side of the game as well. 

I'm a founder that grew up playing Dark Sector on the PS3, so I very well know what the game originally was and what the vision for it was, as well. If you love Warframe like I do, and want to see it succeed, you have to look at solutions to what it doesn't do well. 

 

 

I love you btw. 

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

9 hours ago, Sentinel-14 said:

The problem is that it will attract PVP players

Are PvP players bad people? You are really making it sound like they are.

[(PSN)sdaly96]

With simaris being able to simulate anything via the simulacrum and sanctuary onslaught, lore wise this could be another of his simulations, newly awoken tenno learning the opposing factions battle tactics. Going off what was said about star wars battlefront 2, the space battles from the original ps2 version would work well in warframe

[(PSN)robotwars7]

Anyone who knows me knows I hate pop, but even I must admit, I would definitely at least *try* a corpus vs grineer mode. There's one problem though... the game is called warframe, and would DE be willing to dedicate some of its resources to mode where we aren't even using them. Then there's the issue of balancing the mode, and how would slower paced combat feel (since we wouldn't have bullet jumping or rolling, or any parkour moves). Would people even like that? I'm not totally sure, and I'd hate for yet another pop mode to backfire on DE.

But at least then it would be official that pvp would be forever dead and likely get scrapped, so confirmation is still something gained IMO.

[(XBOX)CFE Vulari]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

Anyone who knows me knows I hate pop, but even I must admit, I would definitely at least *try* a corpus vs grineer mode. There's one problem though... the game is called warframe, and would DE be willing to dedicate some of its resources to mode where we aren't even using them. Then there's the issue of balancing the mode, and how would slower paced combat feel (since we wouldn't have bullet jumping or rolling, or any parkour moves). Would people even like that? I'm not totally sure, and I'd hate for yet another pop mode to backfire on DE.

But at least then it would be official that pvp would be forever dead and likely get scrapped, so confirmation is still something gained IMO.

Yeah, how about... no. Hard No. Once again, if antisocial players do not want social game modes, then please, the game has all the content you could ever desire. Make a new profile. Fashion frame with your comrades. And allow us to grow as a game. Don't let our game die because you're too bitter to be open minded. 

[DrivaMain]

Waste of Development time for a gamemode that will only be abandoned again a few weeks to months after release, Looking at you Conclave. I play warframe to relax while shooting hordes of enemies not constantly having to deal with Manchilds spamming lennies and constantly harrasing everyone in PvP games. Sure, it will attract new types of players but I don't want this gamemode to slow the currently very few PvE content pace in terms of quality and quantity, which DE already struggling with recently.

2 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Are PvP players bad people? You are really making it sound like they are.

Well NOT all of them. But from my experience of playing competitive PvP games before leaving PvP for good, bad people there are a LOT because PvP games tend to cause a lot of pressure to it's players and that can lead to players getting frustated and started blaming everyone and everything.

[Mithrah]

3 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Waste of Development time for a gamemode that will only be abandoned again a few weeks to months after release, Looking at you Conclave. I play warframe to relax while shooting hordes of enemies not constantly having to deal with Manchilds spamming lennies and constantly harrasing everyone in PvP games. Sure, it will attract new types of players but I don't want this gamemode to slow the currently very few PvE content pace in terms of quality and quantity, which DE already struggling with recently.

Well NOT all of them. But from my experience of playing competitive PvP games before leaving PvP for good, bad people there are a LOT because PvP games tend to cause a lot of pressure to it's players and that can lead to players getting frustated and started blaming everyone and everything.

True enough. Thing is though that Warframe lacks sustainable content because it's so PVE centric. There is a reason why a game like Counterstrike or Team Fortress can exist for decades with a ton of players still behind it.

 

PVP is variable and thus no experience is the same. There is less burnout with PVP content. When I start an hour long MOT survival in Warframe I know exactly how its going to end, the same way it did the last forty times I've done it. Its why Warframes numbers fluctuate so often (for veterans at least). A big content release comes out, people come back for it, burn through it, and then leave until the next content drop. And because DE is a company that has to retain the playerbase in order to keep their studios open, they make new content more and more grindy. Hence railjacks taking 7 days to complete construction and bonkers material costs for parts. Its because that content takes a long time for DE to make and doesnt sustain player numbers in the way that is needed. Thats just the reality of it. So even if you don't like PVP personally, more players staying in the game instead of leaving to get a PVP fix elsewhere, means more content for everyone.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Mithrah

[Sentinel-14]

8 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Are PvP players bad people? You are really making it sound like they are.

No, I'm not saying PVP players are bad people. I'm saying they will insist on taking resources away from developing the PVE side of the game. A good friend of mine is a very serious, very competitive Overwatch player. He's high-gold/low-platinum most of the time: middle of the bell curve more or less. I joked with him once about giving Warframe a try knowing from the start that it isn't his kind of game, just as he pulled me into Overwatch knowing it's not my kind of game. He tried anyway, gave it a few weeks to build up mods and a few max-rank weapons, and said exactly what I expected: "It's okay, I guess. Wish the PVP didn't suck." No comments on the world, or the engaging gaming experience as you clear the starmap: he went straight for the PVP and quit when he found he didn't like it. He at least respect that Warframe isnt a PVP game and understands why DE wont put any effort toward it. He was happy that I had found a game I enjoyed, since my displeasure with Overwatch was rather evident to him.

I've said time and again in the past that I think Overwatch has an absolutely fantastic world that would be perfect for a PVE game, but _{(until recently)} Blizzard has been quite up front about Overwatch being a PVP-only game. I respect that, honest to goodness I respect it and I never pushed for PVE in Overwatch. I respect that Blizz knew what kind of game they wanted to produce and more or less stuck to it. They added a couple of recurring PVE-ish modes, sure, but it took the development of Overwatch2, an entirely different game that no one in the OW community asked for, to truly satisfy that desire for a PVE game. Or at least, I think it will: we don't yet know how that's going to work out with OW and OW2, but I digress.

PVP requires a fundamentally different approach to gaming in terms of design and balance. Weapons/abilities powerful enough to be useful against bullet-sponge mega-bosses in PVE are ludicrously overpowered vs other players in PVP. So what's a studio to do? If they maintain a unified sandbox (which is what Bungie did) one mode or the other will suffer (which is exactly what happened with Destiny 2's PVE). The only option is to develop PVP and PVE as entirely separate modes with separate sandboxes and balancing. Basically developing two entirely separate games. The problem with this however is that it requires the studio to split their resources instead of devoting everything to just one. Blizzard is a big enough studio that they can afford to develop OW2 alongside OW, but they're an outlier. Most studios (DE included I'd wager) dont have the capacity to do this.

PVP players come to games because they want PVP, not because there's a great PVE mode with some PVP on the side. Since PVP is their focus, their fun, they naturally want to see more and more resources devoted toward developing that mode. I've never run into a PVP player in Warframe that says "yeah, the PVP here is kind of garbage, so I'll go play COD or Rainbow Six or Overwatch or whatever." They always say "Yeah the PVP here sucks: wish the devs would spend more time fixing it." I don't want the devs to fix PVP. I want it gone, or at the very least ignored and left to wither as DE is presently doing. You'll forgive me for being a little defensive about people suggesting things that will take dev time away from the things I enjoy.

The point is, as a PVE gamer I don't go to PVP games insisting that PVE modes be brought in. I understand that the game is PVP-only, and that if I want my PVE fix I'll have to go to another game. I simply ask the same in return, that PVP gamers understand Warframe is a PVE-only game and they'll have to go somewhere else for PVP.



Addendum: I dont think anyone will argue that there are plenty of bugs and problems with Warframe as is, right? Lots of things need fixing, tuning, reworking, etc. Plenty of older frames need updates. Some weapons (looking at you Kraken and Viper) aren't used at all because they're just garbage. Wouldnt you rather see DE devote time and resources to fixing the things that are already in game instead of working on something entirely new? I know I would. I would like to see them take at least a full year and just fix things. It's not possible, they need the hype from new content releases, but it'd be nice if they'd actually get serious about fixing things.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Sentinel-14

[(XBOX)CFE Vulari]

PvE, just because you don't like 5% of the game which is PvP, doesn't mean you should scrap pvp all together. You're talking about overwatch, which is a completely different type of game. If you want a close pvp relevance in another game, I'd say... ESO? Black Desert? And FYI, a lot of warframe pvpers moved to those games after armistice. 

    Warframe updates content more than any other game. Destiny does content drops like once a year. We are taking resources from PvE? I think you're missing the point. Warframe is warframe. We don't want your resources, we just want armistice to end. Give us back the game mode taken. 

   Imagine procrastinating for five years to revamp a game mode. Everyone who encouraged you to do so has died and disappeared, what is left are people who don't know enough to care. 

[Sentinel-14]

6 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

Anyone who knows me knows I hate pop, but even I must admit, I would definitely at least *try* a corpus vs grineer mode. There's one problem though... the game is called warframe, and would DE be willing to dedicate some of its resources to mode where we aren't even using them. Then there's the issue of balancing the mode, and how would slower paced combat feel (since we wouldn't have bullet jumping or rolling, or any parkour moves). Would people even like that? I'm not totally sure, and I'd hate for yet another pop mode to backfire on DE.

But at least then it would be official that pvp would be forever dead and likely get scrapped, so confirmation is still something gained IMO.

Considering they developed the Operator mode and force you to use it for certain content, it's certainly possible that they'd develop things that do not center around Warframes and their usage. Though, I recall plenty of people complaining about being forced to use Operator for War Within (even though it makes sense) and Chains of Harrow, as well as the Eidolon hunts. "This is Warframe, not Operator. I want to run my favorite X build frame and guns, not this wimpy brat that gets knocked out with one hit." It's a legitimate criticism.

There seems to be a contingent in the community that loudly opposes anything other than the status quo.

5 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Waste of Development time for a gamemode that will only be abandoned again a few weeks to months after release, Looking at you Conclave. I play warframe to relax while shooting hordes of enemies not constantly having to deal with Manchilds spamming lennies and constantly harrasing everyone in PvP games. Sure, it will attract new types of players but I don't want this gamemode to slow the currently very few PvE content pace in terms of quality and quantity, which DE already struggling with recently.

Well NOT all of them. But from my experience of playing competitive PvP games before leaving PvP for good, bad people there are a LOT because PvP games tend to cause a lot of pressure to it's players and that can lead to players getting frustated and started blaming everyone and everything.

I'm in the same boat. I play warframe to relax after work so I'm not looking for a competition or something ultra-challenging. I just want to kick back and slaughter for a while.

And as I've said I dont think PVP players are bad people. Not as a whole, anyway. But I do agree that PVP ratchets up the stress and pressure, leading to people getting frustrated and lashing out. I should know: I'm one them. I've said some rather unkind things to my own friends due to having matches go entirely sideways and immediately regretted it. Fortunately my friends are forgiving and understand it's just me being unable to handle the stress of a PVP game.

PVP is far easier to develop and maintain than PVE is which is why you see PVP games last for years and years while so many PVE games die off after a few. That's why so many studios devote so much to PVP: it's reliable. It's easy. Easy to come up with a new game type and a couple new maps every 6 months or so. It's a lot harder to come up with an entirely new quest line with good lore, a rich and engaging story, and art assets that might only be seen Once. Kuva Throne, for example. Unless you buy the captura scene of it, you only see it Once in War Within and then it's gone. We've never gone back there. Lots of time and money went into developing that map only for it to never be used again. Some studios would call that a waste.

My issue with PVP players is not with them personally; it's with what they inevitably demand from the dev teams: more resources toward PVP. Less of other things. No. Hard NO.

[(XBOX)CFE Vulari]

In 2019 DE pushed out more new content than the base game itself. But how is warframe stagnant? Because PvE content has a shelf life. If you bring back a PvP endgame you would improve the game drastically, yes there would be people who complain, but no more than normal. Ending armistice will give you fresh content without anything further. 

[(XBOX)CFE Vulari]

PvE shelf life. Ready for it? Remember Anthem? Point n case.

[Mithrah]

20 minutes ago, Sentinel-14 said:

Considering they developed the Operator mode and force you to use it for certain content, it's certainly possible that they'd develop things that do not center around Warframes and their usage. Though, I recall plenty of people complaining about being forced to use Operator for War Within (even though it makes sense) and Chains of Harrow, as well as the Eidolon hunts. "This is Warframe, not Operator. I want to run my favorite X build frame and guns, not this wimpy brat that gets knocked out with one hit." It's a legitimate criticism.

There seems to be a contingent in the community that loudly opposes anything other than the status quo.

I'm in the same boat. I play warframe to relax after work so I'm not looking for a competition or something ultra-challenging. I just want to kick back and slaughter for a while.

And as I've said I dont think PVP players are bad people. Not as a whole, anyway. But I do agree that PVP ratchets up the stress and pressure, leading to people getting frustrated and lashing out. I should know: I'm one them. I've said some rather unkind things to my own friends due to having matches go entirely sideways and immediately regretted it. Fortunately my friends are forgiving and understand it's just me being unable to handle the stress of a PVP game.

PVP is far easier to develop and maintain than PVE is which is why you see PVP games last for years and years while so many PVE games die off after a few. That's why so many studios devote so much to PVP: it's reliable. It's easy. Easy to come up with a new game type and a couple new maps every 6 months or so. It's a lot harder to come up with an entirely new quest line with good lore, a rich and engaging story, and art assets that might only be seen Once. Kuva Throne, for example. Unless you buy the captura scene of it, you only see it Once in War Within and then it's gone. We've never gone back there. Lots of time and money went into developing that map only for it to never be used again. Some studios would call that a waste.

My issue with PVP players is not with them personally; it's with what they inevitably demand from the dev teams: more resources toward PVP. Less of other things. No. Hard NO.

Well, I dunno if that's a sword you're willing to fall on. Because Warframe is now 7 years old. Empyrean is the largest update they've made and had the largest amount of hype they have ever gotten for a single content release. Everyone who has been interested in Warframe has played by it now. Currently Warframe averages 1k monthly views on twitch which isnt terrible, but isnt great either after the biggest update in the game's history it should probably be much larger. Mixer numbers arent where you'd expect if social blade is accurate. Many content creators of the game have taken a break. So, I mean, if people would rather just stamp their feet in the mud than include a gameplay option that they dont like, I hope DE avoids your evaluation toward gameplay. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Mithrah

[Sentinel-14]

I thought we agreed to disagree? I was responding to Robotwars' question and commenting on DrivaMain's post.

10 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

Well, I dunno if that's a sword you're willing to fall on. Because Warframe is now 7 years old. Empyrean is the largest update they've made and had the largest amount of hype they have ever gotten for a single content release.

Warframe is 7 years old and has only gotten better with time. It has it's problems, sure, but all games do. Empyrean only feels big because the map is vast: the actual content is currently quite minimal. I'd argue that Plains of Eidolon was the biggest release the game had because it did something fundamentally different from anything the game had before. Open world, modular gear, raid-like boss hunts that are harder than typical world-boss assassination missions, bounty chains, fishing (which is still goofy as heck).... a lot went into Plains, and Fortuna more or less rode in it's coattails as a corpus reskin with the same underlying systems. Empyrean is the same 3 maps with the same 1 mission, over and over ad infinitum. Occasionally you'll find the anomaly at Veil so I guess there's that too.

10 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

 Everyone who has been interested in Warframe has played by it now.

Unless the human population has suddenly ceased to reproduce, this is objectively and statistically false. Unless you can see the future, this is impossible to assert with any level of conviction.

10 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

Currently Warframe averages 1k monthly views on twitch which isnt terrible, but isnt great either after the biggest update in the game's history it should probably be much larger. Mixer numbers arent where you'd expect if social blade is accurate. Many content creators of the game have taken a break. So, I mean, if people would rather just stamp their feet in the mud than include a gameplay option that they dont like, I hope DE avoids your evaluation toward gameplay. 

Viewers aren't playing, and players aren't watching. If they're watching, then of course they're not logged in thus leading to lower numbers. If they're logged in and playing, they're not watching, leading to lower watch numbers. There are people who play but don't watch at all, and I'm sure there are probably some who watch but never play. Both are useful metrics, certainly, but one does not necessarily correlate with the other. Furthermore, Overwatch League has left Twitch in favor of Youtube, yet no one's citing that as some harbinger of doom for OWL. So again, Twitch/Mixer activity isn't as important as people make it out to be.

Content creators have taken a break, sure. I'm not a content creator but I took a 3-week break after burning out on the first Nightwave series: everyone is susceptible to burnout and needs a break now and then, especially content creators who devote all their time to one game. The ones who branch out with a variety of games don't seem to have the burnout issue.

It's not stamping feet in the mud: it's asking DE to continue doing what they do well instead of wasting time and resources on something they've already tried with unsatisfactory results. Again, DE's own internal numbers reflect enough of a lack of PVP participation for them to decide not to work on it anymore. Their PVP team is 2 people who have authorization to work on it after hours, without compensation, if they want to. That's how little DE cares about PVP. Those same numbers show that their PVE content is what draws players.

They don't have to 'avoid my evaluation': they've already reached the same conclusion.

[Mithrah]

7 minutes ago, Sentinel-14 said:

I thought we agreed to disagree? I was responding to Robotwars' question and commenting on DrivaMain's post.

Warframe is 7 years old and has only gotten better with time. It has it's problems, sure, but all games do. Empyrean only feels big because the map is vast: the actual content is currently quite minimal. I'd argue that Plains of Eidolon was the biggest release the game had because it did something fundamentally different from anything the game had before. Open world, modular gear, raid-like boss hunts that are harder than typical world-boss assassination missions, bounty chains, fishing (which is still goofy as heck).... a lot went into Plains, and Fortuna more or less rode in it's coattails as a corpus reskin with the same underlying systems. Empyrean is the same 3 maps with the same 1 mission, over and over ad infinitum. Occasionally you'll find the anomaly at Veil so I guess there's that too.

Unless the human population has suddenly ceased to reproduce, this is objectively and statistically false. Unless you can see the future, this is impossible to assert with any level of conviction.

Viewers aren't playing, and players aren't watching. If they're watching, then of course they're not logged in thus leading to lower numbers. If they're logged in and playing, they're not watching, leading to lower watch numbers. There are people who play but don't watch at all, and I'm sure there are probably some who watch but never play. Both are useful metrics, certainly, but one does not necessarily correlate with the other. Furthermore, Overwatch League has left Twitch in favor of Youtube, yet no one's citing that as some harbinger of doom for OWL. So again, Twitch/Mixer activity isn't as important as people make it out to be.

Content creators have taken a break, sure. I'm not a content creator but I took a 3-week break after burning out on the first Nightwave series: everyone is susceptible to burnout and needs a break now and then, especially content creators who devote all their time to one game. The ones who branch out with a variety of games don't seem to have the burnout issue.

It's not stamping feet in the mud: it's asking DE to continue doing what they do well instead of wasting time and resources on something they've already tried with unsatisfactory results. Again, DE's own internal numbers reflect enough of a lack of PVP participation for them to decide not to work on it anymore. Their PVP team is 2 people who have authorization to work on it after hours, without compensation, if they want to. That's how little DE cares about PVP. Those same numbers show that their PVE content is what draws players.

They don't have to 'avoid my evaluation': they've already reached the same conclusion.

Ah, I didnt even notice you were the same person from before. But if you give your opinion and come back at it on the thread I started yeah I'll still chime in. Its not hostility just criticism. 

Well, I dont want to retread topics but yeah conclave wasnt successful. No one says the opposite, but its because of implementation hence the point of the post from the get go. Viewers are indicative of interest in the game as a whole its why people care about streamer numbers at all. The insinuation wasnt that the game cant keep players currently playing it interested long term. Its a suggestion for DE if they want to attract a wider audience and gain short term player retention. Which of course is for DE to decide and no one else. Thats all the point was about. And yes we do take breaks due to burn outs, but once again that was what my suggestion is aiming to solve is a different structure people can engage in during content drought periods. Which by the way, affects DE as well, if you've played the game and followed their development cycles from the get go, the constant treadmill to push content to keep players playing the game takes a toll on their dev team as it would with any development team. So yeah, I knew from the get go a lot of warframe players are knee jerk against PVP, but the benefits outweigh the negatives. So like 1 month of dev time to modify a system that could potentially bring in thousands of players that were otherwise not interested. PVE players are that desperate to keep the treadmill moving at breakneck speed until new war and whatever else comes out? I've already seen nothing but comments just asking when New War is coming out during the last devstream. How long do you think this type of thing could really continue realistically? New PVE content requires mocap, voice acting, tons of scripting, new map locations, potentially new mechanics not already in the game, new items as rewards for that content. Its way more demanding development wise to make even basic PVE content, when you could literally make a single PVP map, use stuff already present in the game, and push it out in a minor patch like they used to do with the seasonal events.

Refocusing to fix what the game has is a better use of dev time, and it already has PVP, popular or not (which i think it would be if it were actually good), might as well fix it.

 

[Sentinel-14]

Preface: I'm not being sarcastic or mean-spirited anywhere here. I genuinely enjoy a civil discussion.

17 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

Ah, I didnt even notice you were the same person from before. But if you give your opinion and come back at it on the thread I started yeah I'll still chime in. Its not hostility just criticism. 

I was answering Robotwars because it seems rude not to, considering he quoted me and therefore seemed to be speaking to me directly. I wasn't trying to continue an argument: that's why I was a little surprised you responded. We seem to be on opposite sides of the PVP debate and I don't think there's much value in continuing.

17 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

Well, I dont want to retread topics but yeah conclave wasnt successful. No one says the opposite, but its because of implementation hence the point of the post from the get go. Viewers are indicative of interest in the game as a whole its why people care about streamer numbers at all. The insinuation wasnt that the game cant keep players currently playing it interested long term. Its a suggestion for DE if they want to attract a wider audience and gain short term player retention. Which of course is for DE to decide and no one else. Thats all the point was about.

If DE wants to attract a wider audience then PVP might be an option, sure. But all indicators seem to show that they don't. DE seems to know just who plays their game and what those players want, and PVP isn't it. Alternatively, like Blizz with OW, DE seems to know what kind of game they want to make, and it doesn't seem to be PVP.

17 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

 And yes we do take breaks due to burn outs, but once again that was what my suggestion is aiming to solve is a different structure people can engage in during content drought periods.

This is probably the only use I can see for PVP in an otherwise PVE-oriented game: retention. The problem is it never stays that way.

• PVE players who don't like PVP won't play at all. This seems to be the majority of Warframe's current base.
• PVE players who like PVP will play it off and on during the drought, then go back to the main content upon new release. DE's numbers seem to indicate that this group is statistically nonexistent.
• PVP players wont play the PVE at all, or only where necessary to gain power or gear. I saw this so much in Destiny with people who didn't play the campaign at all, knew nothing about the world or the story, and actively avoided anything PVE except where required to get a new gun. They always insist on more focus for PVP. It always happens.
  That's why I don't want PVP in Warframe at all. I don't want to open that door. I want that door kept shut, locked, chained, and buried in concrete with a giant sofa in front of it.

17 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

... if you've played the game and followed their development cycles from the get go, the constant treadmill to push content to keep players playing the game takes a toll on their dev team as it would with any development team.

It absolutely takes it's toll, no argument there. Developing PVE games is grueling because your players will always manage to grind through the content faster than you can develop it. It's the nature of the beast. And it's why so many rely (naively in my opinion) on PVP for retention.

17 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

So yeah, I knew from the get go a lot of warframe players are knee jerk against PVP, but the benefits outweigh the negatives.

I respectfully disagree.

17 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

So like 1 month of dev time to modify a system that could potentially bring in thousands of players that were otherwise not interested. PVE players are that desperate to keep the treadmill moving at breakneck speed until new war and whatever else comes out? I've already seen nothing but comments just asking when New War is coming out during the last devstream. 

So we at least agree that PVP is easier to develop than PVE? Common ground! :D
And yes, PVE players are desperate to keep the treadmill moving because it's impossible to satisfy everyone. Utterly impossible. The reason you've seen comments about New War is because they've shown and talked about it repeatedly. Anytime something new is teased, people want to know more. It's why some studios remain utterly silent on new content until it ships, that way they're not fielding endless questions about it, or accusations of not having met some unstated or arbitrary timetable. We waited for Sacrifice for.... what? 2 years? They teased it, but then went silent until it released. The question was asked endlessly: "Sacrifice when?" Now it's "New War when?" PVE players always want something new.

17 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

How long do you think this type of thing could really continue realistically? New PVE content requires mocap, voice acting, tons of scripting, new map locations, potentially new mechanics not already in the game, new items as rewards for that content. Its way more demanding development wise to make even basic PVE content, when you could literally make a single PVP map, use stuff already present in the game, and push it out in a minor patch like they used to do with the seasonal events.

I have no idea how long they can keep it up. I really don't. I work in structural engineering, not game design. We seem agree that more work does go into PVE content than PVP.

17 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

Refocusing to fix what the game has is a better use of dev time, and it already has PVP, popular or not (which i think it would be if it were actually good), might as well fix it.

I agree that refocusing to fix what the game has is a good use of dev time: I simply disagree that working on PVP is a good idea when there is so much PVE that needs work. Frame reworks, weapon tuning, drop-rate tuning, bug-fixes, etc.

You clearly love the game and seek to use PVP as a means to bring in more players and give the game a prop-up between content drought. That's passion, and it's admirable. But it's naive. Let's assume they get it working perfectly, and players have something to do between content releases. Eventually that PVP will get old and stale unless they develop for it. That means they're not developing the PVE content, only further delaying it's release and exacerbating the drought.

DE does not have a PVP team. There is no one they can allocate to work on content or balance for it, because doing so will negatively affect development of the rest of the game. You cannot serve two masters and please both.

Again, we're at an impasse here because we're firmly on opposing sides of the fence. I want DE to continue getting better at what they already do well: you seem to want them to pivot and attempt to get better at something they have already failed at.

[(PSN)sdaly96]

3 hours ago, Sentinel-14 said:

Preface: I'm not being sarcastic or mean-spirited anywhere here. I genuinely enjoy a civil discussion.

I was answering Robotwars because it seems rude not to, considering he quoted me and therefore seemed to be speaking to me directly. I wasn't trying to continue an argument: that's why I was a little surprised you responded. We seem to be on opposite sides of the PVP debate and I don't think there's much value in continuing.

If DE wants to attract a wider audience then PVP might be an option, sure. But all indicators seem to show that they don't. DE seems to know just who plays their game and what those players want, and PVP isn't it. Alternatively, like Blizz with OW, DE seems to know what kind of game they want to make, and it doesn't seem to be PVP.

This is probably the only use I can see for PVP in an otherwise PVE-oriented game: retention. The problem is it never stays that way.

• PVE players who don't like PVP won't play at all. This seems to be the majority of Warframe's current base.
• PVE players who like PVP will play it off and on during the drought, then go back to the main content upon new release. DE's numbers seem to indicate that this group is statistically nonexistent.
• PVP players wont play the PVE at all, or only where necessary to gain power or gear. I saw this so much in Destiny with people who didn't play the campaign at all, knew nothing about the world or the story, and actively avoided anything PVE except where required to get a new gun. They always insist on more focus for PVP. It always happens.
  That's why I don't want PVP in Warframe at all. I don't want to open that door. I want that door kept shut, locked, chained, and buried in concrete with a giant sofa in front of it.

It absolutely takes it's toll, no argument there. Developing PVE games is grueling because your players will always manage to grind through the content faster than you can develop it. It's the nature of the beast. And it's why so many rely (naively in my opinion) on PVP for retention.

I respectfully disagree.

So we at least agree that PVP is easier to develop than PVE? Common ground! 😄
And yes, PVE players are desperate to keep the treadmill moving because it's impossible to satisfy everyone. Utterly impossible. The reason you've seen comments about New War is because they've shown and talked about it repeatedly. Anytime something new is teased, people want to know more. It's why some studios remain utterly silent on new content until it ships, that way they're not fielding endless questions about it, or accusations of not having met some unstated or arbitrary timetable. We waited for Sacrifice for.... what? 2 years? They teased it, but then went silent until it released. The question was asked endlessly: "Sacrifice when?" Now it's "New War when?" PVE players always want something new.

I have no idea how long they can keep it up. I really don't. I work in structural engineering, not game design. We seem agree that more work does go into PVE content than PVP.

I agree that refocusing to fix what the game has is a good use of dev time: I simply disagree that working on PVP is a good idea when there is so much PVE that needs work. Frame reworks, weapon tuning, drop-rate tuning, bug-fixes, etc.

You clearly love the game and seek to use PVP as a means to bring in more players and give the game a prop-up between content drought. That's passion, and it's admirable. But it's naive. Let's assume they get it working perfectly, and players have something to do between content releases. Eventually that PVP will get old and stale unless they develop for it. That means they're not developing the PVE content, only further delaying it's release and exacerbating the drought.

DE does not have a PVP team. There is no one they can allocate to work on content or balance for it, because doing so will negatively affect development of the rest of the game. You cannot serve two masters and please both.

Again, we're at an impasse here because we're firmly on opposing sides of the fence. I want DE to continue getting better at what they already do well: you seem to want them to pivot and attempt to get better at something they have already failed at.

To be fair, one of the things they said they'd fix was the dark sectors, which apart from clan politics getting in the way was a fun gamemode, in both its pvp and mobile defense pve variant. Working on them, implementing railjack maybe would be nice. Personally I think having pvp to go to (or at least the option to) would be good for content drought, adding other things like actual k drive races and other things of the sort could help too. Even some clan events would be nice, better were the days when they were every couple of months.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

3 hours ago, Sentinel-14 said:

PVE players who don't like PVP won't play at all. This seems to be the majority of Warframe's current base.

Ok. That's true.
 

 

3 hours ago, Sentinel-14 said:

PVP players wont play the PVE at all, or only where necessary to gain power or gear. I saw this so much in Destiny with people who didn't play the campaign at all, knew nothing about the world or the story, and actively avoided anything PVE except where required to get a new gun. They always insist on more focus for PVP. It always happens.

I actually started off in Warframe as a strictly PvP player. I remember just wanting to play the Solar Rail battles and nothing else. Over time I realized it would be necessary to do PvE to help my clan members get gear, to get platinum, to ensure my clan was high ranked in the events and weekly kill leaderboards, and playing PvE was one of the best ways to recruit new players into the clan. I can't think of a single player that has that mentality and I know pretty much everyone in the Warframe PvP Community. We aren't advocating for DE to invest 100% of their time into the PvP. We just want to see some more development on the foundations that have been laid and a fulfillment of the promise that DE made to end the armistice.
 

 

5 hours ago, Sentinel-14 said:

That's why I don't want PVP in Warframe at all. I don't want to open that door. I want that door kept shut, locked, chained, and buried in concrete with a giant sofa in front of it.

You are going to be disappointed to know that PvP has been in Warframe for 6 years now. Your attitude towards PvP isn't a healthy one to have. PvP has not negatively impacted the development of the game. If anything, its benefited the game.

 

5 hours ago, Sentinel-14 said:

It absolutely takes it's toll, no argument there. Developing PVE games is grueling because your players will always manage to grind through the content faster than you can develop it. It's the nature of the beast. And it's why so many rely (naively in my opinion) on PVP for retention.

Conclave has not received a serious balance pass since 2017. Yet people still play it daily. It has an entire community of people who love and enjoy the mode. If Warframe stopped receiving updates, most of the PvE playerbase would leave. The PvP players would still be playing it for years to come. PvP is infinite content because no two matches are the same. Chess hasn't received an update in a thousand years and there are millions of people that still play it because they enjoy it. PvP directly causes player retention.

5 hours ago, Sentinel-14 said:

I agree that refocusing to fix what the game has is a good use of dev time: I simply disagree that working on PVP is a good idea when there is so much PVE that needs work. Frame reworks, weapon tuning, drop-rate tuning, bug-fixes, etc.

The problems plaguing PvP in Warframe are problems that can be solved by changing a few 1s into 0s. Literally. There is a flag on every weapon that determines whether it is usable in Conclave or not. Removing just a few troublesome weapons (for example the telos boltace, bramm, and staticor.) and adjusting some of the modifiers on the outliers will fix most of the issues in PvP. Solar Rails had an entirely different set of problems but nobody is asking for them to come back exactly as they were. I've spoken a fair bit about the issues that were in them in other threads so I won't bring it up here unless there is some interest for it.
 

 

5 hours ago, Sentinel-14 said:

You clearly love the game and seek to use PVP as a means to bring in more players and give the game a prop-up between content drought. That's passion, and it's admirable. But it's naive.

I don't see how it is naive. The PvP community has stuck around in Warframe for years with DE barely acknowledging their existence. That supercedes any content drought in the game. Conclave has had a 2 and a half year long content drought and is still played. Solar Rails haven't been in the game for nearly 5 years and people still talk about wanting to see them return. Putting effort into PvP has much more effect on player retention than PvE does. How many times do you go and play defection missions just for the fun of it? Adding new modes and maps into PvE is only a holding measure, because people get bored of it very quickly. Unlike the maps added to the PvP side of things.
Don't misinterpret what I am saying. I'm not saying that adding PvE content to the game is wrong or inherently doomed to failure. I am just saying that making just a little bit of content for the PvP community can keep them entertained for a few years and so it is well worth the effort that goes into it.

6 hours ago, Sentinel-14 said:

Let's assume they get it working perfectly, and players have something to do between content releases. Eventually that PVP will get old and stale

It won't. People play Halo Reach and its a 10 year old game that hasn't received any major changes since 2011. People still play Starcraft 2 and Brood War to this day. I typically don't like using the chess example more than once but people still play chess. PvP is infinite content that scales in effectiveness based on how much effort is put into the development of it.

6 hours ago, Sentinel-14 said:

That means they're not developing the PVE content, only further delaying it's release and exacerbating the drought

Can they not work on PvP and PvE content at the same time? You do know that they did that just fine for several years, right?

6 hours ago, Sentinel-14 said:

DE does not have a PVP team. There is no one they can allocate to work on content or balance for it, because doing so will negatively affect development of the rest of the game. You cannot serve two masters and please both.

We aren't asking for 50,000 man hours to be put into the development of PvP in Warframe. We are asking for 5 minutes and some 1s changed into 0s. DE managed both just fine for a long time before they stopped working on PvP.

 

6 hours ago, Sentinel-14 said:

Again, we're at an impasse here because we're firmly on opposing sides of the fence. I want DE to continue getting better at what they already do well: you seem to want them to pivot and attempt to get better at something they have already failed at.

Nobody is asking for the entirety of DE to work on PvP content 24/7. We just want some attention dedicated to the problems plaguing the mode.
 

[Mithrah]

Couldn't have said it better myself Repo.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

18 hours ago, Mithrah said:

Couldn't have said it better myself Repo.

Thanks.

[(PSN)sdaly96]

21 hours ago, Mithrah said:

Couldn't have said it better myself Repo.

I second this

[(XBOX)CFE Vulari]

On 2020-02-06 at 5:39 PM, Mithrah said:

Couldn't have said it better myself Repo.

I could have... I just chose not to...

[(XBOX)Chroma Prime]

On 2020-02-05 at 7:12 PM, (XB1)CFE Vulari said:

       Warframe has always been a balance of PvP endgame mixed with PvE grinds and events. Having a competitive endgame allows the content to remain fresh. Gives PvE grind a purpose, more than just bragging rights. Also allows clans to have a real reason to join an alliance. Solar Rails were objective based PvP that effected the PvE grind. That balance is the harmony we are lacking. Also, you'd rarely get into drawn out pvp fights as if you know how to approach a rail run in a manner in which there is too little time.  Learning these skills and methods are the same as PvE events, each require thought and teamwork. 

       True, there are a large community of solo PvE runners who just enjoy easy bot wipes with OP godlike builds (usually created by PvP players but that's ok) And don't really participate in Events. Which is about 95% of the content you have available. Clearly this antisocial game play doesn't require much teamwork or actual skill.I'm just confused at their argument to remove any competitive nature or endgame, as that is what PvP (done properly -.-) brings to the table. We lost a large community of competitive players when conclave replaced rails as the PvP game mode for warframe. Where Solar Rails were unique and difficult, conclave is much the same as PvE running routes with OP builds. No real teamwork required. That of course doesn't have to be that way, but because of certain decisions, that is what we have.

      And acting like your region chat is as toxic as it is because of the amount of PvP players, get real. We're all the same and we all bleed red. This talk about PvP players being a "different breed" "get rid of them all together" That just sounds... bigoted.  You don't need to get rid of us to play by yourself. And I hope DE, the makers of Unreal, will remember that PvP content is never ending. 

You certainly have a way with words. It is a shame that the larger community views the PvP community in such a way. We are all Tenno.