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Bosses - Discussion On Scale And Fun Factor.


Zeus154
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Anyway, J2K Golem, or now "Lephantis" is a good step in the right direction in making these bosses large and fun to play. I enjoyed what they did for Golem. Now the question is... can they make another boss that is fun to fight? Similar to Golem. Something like these battles?

 

SotC: Thirteenth Colossus - Phalanx battle.

 

MGS4 - Solid Snake Versus Liquid/Ocelot.

 

For those who cannot view Embedded videos, in their respective order

 

 

Note if you haven't played these games, you should. They're pretty amazing. Also do note that these are spoilers for those who have not completed these games. That said, I wish that more bosses could be like that; large, interesting or just epic. From mounting the fins of Phalanx, to harkening back to Metal Gear Solid 3 with Snake Eater, these battles conveyed pure amounts of just awesome, for lack of a better term.

 

What do you guys feel about Golem? How large of a scale do you think they should make for the bosses?

 

Discuss.

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In terms of looks and atmosphere, the Lephantis boss really was top notch. We need more bosses that give you that feel of intimidation challange that comes with fighting a boss.

 

I remember reading a topic here with screenshots in Corpus areas that had pieces to what was thought to be a giant robot. I really hope that is true and one day we get a boss like that for the corpus.

Edited by Darkmoone1
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I rather they make bosses have more interesting abilities to fight against, and not some dumb mechanic that just slows you down from killing them, like going underground, or creating a shield around them that can not be damaged.

 

That would be cool. As for going underground, it depends. Golem had 3 stages, so... 3 opportunities for doing damage. The Phalanx battle just shows scale and difficulty. Still fun nonetheless. As for Vor, I can relate to the situation.

 

The upcoming Alad V boss looks to be a pretty epic fight, too. (in true Corpus fashion, he has a pet robotic dog-spider-thing)

 

I hope he doesn't become another Kela and throws robo-dogs instead of rollers... If so... "Release the hounds!"

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I think Lephantis was a let down myself. Sure, it was different, but only in the sense that the boss was huge, and had multiple life bars individual of the main body. Aside from that, it's just like fighting Kril. Shoot weak point and profit.

 

I think Bosses are one of those aspects of the game that will take several updates to other core gameplay mechanics before they can be looked at in a true light of challenge and fun. As the game is now, they are doomed to be bullet sponges with varying states of "can't hurt me" attached to them.

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You say that like 99% of bosses in video games don't follow that pattern.

Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Fallout: New Vegas, Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, Temple of Elemental Evil, Condemned: Criminal Origins, Red Dead Redemption, Dishonored, I could go on and on and on.
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Fallout 3 and NV (same thing actually), were non-linear as possible, and their bosses had at least a three different legal ways to be put down, and at least a couple glitchy ways to do the same exploiting the moronic AI or dumb game decisions (i.e. enter VATS and then launch mini-nukes everywhere counting on the silly 80% damage reduction you get from what is supposed to be an assisted targeting system sitting in a glorified PDA on your arm, thankfully in NV that was removed, but your companions are still OP as F*** without mods, heck Veronica easily nuked the whole population of the friggin BoS bunker with just a good power fist and powered armor. The same mobs would have laughed at my high-level guns and could tore through the same powered armor if I was wearing it).

 

Lephantis is on the right direction, but still feels like the bosses in the games where you use a fake gun to shoot at the screen. And pay with coins to play.

Edited by bobafetthotmail
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Make the bosses like Devil May Cry, God of War. I'll have more fun farming bosses then :D

 

God of War had some pretty fun boss battles. Like the Olympian statue battle in GoW2. I do like riding some cyclops every now and again. :P

 

Fallout 3 and NV (same thing actually), were non-linear as possible, and their bosses had at least a three different legal ways to be put down, and at least a couple glitchy ways to do the same exploiting the moronic AI or dumb game decisions (i.e. enter VATS and then launch mini-nukes everywhere counting on the silly 80% damage reduction you get from what is supposed to be an assisted targeting system sitting in a glorified PDA on your arm, thankfully in NV that was removed, but your companions are still OP as F*** without mods, heck Veronica easily nuked the whole population of the friggin BoS bunker with just a good power fist and powered armor. The same mobs would have laughed at my high-level guns and could tore through the same powered armor if I was wearing it).

 

Lephantis is on the right direction, but still feels like the bosses in the games where you use a fake gun to shoot at the screen. And pay with coins to play.

 

I say FO3 is better than NV, but that's personal preference. And yes the AI is pretty moronic in those games. Stealthiness for the win. :3

 

To think about it, "I feel like a god amongst the people." Yes we are Tenno and space ninja, but we can laughably destroy our enemy. At higher ranks, the factions shoot their pew-pew guns, while we can easily shrug off the shells of their inevitable fate. They should make some fights in the game fight or flight instances. That and encourage stealth more. Stealth as it is, is pretty much an underused/non-existent mechanic in Warframe. Why would you slowly creep around the enemies, when you can easily shoot your guns and sever limbs?

 

The Warframe, the suit, should be a tad bit more fragile even at max levels. I say this because, this makes experience more difficult, and encourage more cautious play; hence adding to stealth and the slight difficulty of the boss battle. However this will cause a fan outcry like Stamina changes in Update 10. That said, this would present a large predicament, for people who like stealth and compromise for those who like run-and-gun.

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Fallout 3 and NV (same thing actually), were non-linear as possible, and their bosses had at least a three different legal ways to be put down, and at least a couple glitchy ways to do the same exploiting the moronic AI or dumb game decisions (i.e. enter VATS and then launch mini-nukes everywhere counting on the silly 80% damage reduction you get from what is supposed to be an assisted targeting system sitting in a glorified PDA on your arm, thankfully in NV that was removed, but your companions are still OP as F*** without mods, heck Veronica easily nuked the whole population of the friggin BoS bunker with just a good power fist and powered armor. The same mobs would have laughed at my high-level guns and could tore through the same powered armor if I was wearing it).

 

Lephantis is on the right direction, but still feels like the bosses in the games where you use a fake gun to shoot at the screen. And pay with coins to play.

I agree on all accounts about NV and how the companions were OP... on normal mode, but I hated hardcore. Unarmed/Melee were super deadly because it meant getting up in spitting distance. Heck, the scariest thing any NCR/Independent/House-aligned player can see in the low teens is a Legion hitsquad and one of the assassins sporting a Thermic Lance while you're in visual range of Cazadores (fun fact: Thermic Lance is the perfect melee weapon against them, kills them before they can even hit).

Yet in Warframe, melee is almost garbage until you put a potato+formas into an already powerful weapon like Gelatine. It's less about the damage you can do in a few swings and more about killing the enemies before they can kill you. Every Toxic Ancient/Ancient Disruptor I see on a mission where I'm all melee-happy and suddenly I'm looking at Rawr from Lonesome Road.

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That would be cool. As for going underground, it depends. Golem had 3 stages, so... 3 opportunities for doing damage. The Phalanx battle just shows scale and difficulty. Still fun nonetheless. As for Vor, I can relate to the situation.

 

 

I hope he doesn't become another Kela and throws robo-dogs instead of rollers... If so... "Release the hounds!"

You will not be disappointed with this boss... From what I have seen... it looks amazingly epic... beautiful... so beautiful it puts everything we wanted from Dark Sector in Warframe to shame...

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I want the bosses who have special abilities to use them more often and creatively.

 

For example, whenever I faced Tyl Regor, he only used the dash once and only as an attack. I'd like to see it used more often as both an attack and escape, having him zoom across the map and basically making the fight more interesting.

 

Another idea is to have him use his dash to escape from things like Vauban's Bastille, or maybe as a sneak attack/escape during Rhino's Stomp.

 

Things like that would make me happy.

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I think some bosses should stay small also. some should be huge in size, as long as they fit for believable size. A size of a boss shouldn't also define the power of the boss, this way we could see the immense power a boss such as Vor or Hek has gotten, being a size of a normal human but possessing the power of Lephantis or close to it for example. This way, we have more variation and the developers have more freedom in creating bosses, as long as they are believable of course.

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You say that like 99% of bosses in video games don't follow that pattern.

 

And a large portion of those games also aren't worth a damn in regard to their boss fights. Just because the stigma infects most of the video games published doesn't make it ok. It's often other parts of the game that make up for their lack luster boss battles.

 

Shadow of the Colossus was an example of weak points done right, as the true battle was not waiting for those weak points to show themselves, but getting to those weak points. Even some bosses in games like Ninja Gaiden where weak points were the focus still allowed you to attack any available point on the boss to do damage and get them into a staggering state to reach that weak point, giving you an option to do a few strikes of massive damage as opposed to any damage at all. Boss fights like Lephantis leave you waiting for the weak point to reveal itself so you can actually do damage, instead of allowing you to work for the sweet spot yourself if you choose. It was a reactive experience instead of a proactive one, and not a very good one at that... I don't feel like I'm countering anything, or making clever use of an opening in the bosses defenses... I feel like I'm playing a cover based shooter where all I do for most of a fight is sit behind a wall and wait for a chance to shoot the guy so I can be done with it...

 

Lepahntis could have been a new breed of boss in Warframe, focusing on a true multi-tiered battle against three bosses in one and giving the player multiple means to take it down based on their preference. Instead it just had three weak points that you had to wait for it to open its maw to attack before you could do anything with them... The boss may be visually stunning, but it's an even bigger grind than the other bullet sponge bosses. At least bosses like Vor are kind enough to only go invicible in stages, rather than only be vulnerable in stages...

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