Valence Fusion DOESN'T CARRY OVER FORMA INVESTMENTS

[ArcKnight9202]

Didn't the Valence Transfer gift the Forma + Catalyst to the donor item? Why would this fusion system omit such an obviously desirable benefit? Did they go out of their way to make this work in such a manner? Didn't Valence Transfer also destroy one of the items or does that argument only work if it's thematic?

If they were going to change the functionality in such a way, it definitely warranted a much deeper explanation in the patch notes. As it stands, this seems like a side-grade instead of a strictly superior option.

Truly baffling.

If I'm misunderstanding something, I apologize.

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by ArcKnight9202

[Guest]

Perhaps you should've read the confirmation dialog more carefully?

Edited February 6, 2020 by Guest

[TARINunit9]

Just now, ArcKnight9202 said:

Didn't the Valence Transfer gift the Forma + Catalyst to the donor item? 

From what I understand, no. In Valence Transfer/Fusion, one weapon stays the same in terms of Forma, while the other is destroyed entirely, Forma destroyed with it. Only the Valence itself is moved from weapon to weapon (and under the new system, is increased to a higher value than either of the weapons)

That said, despite my thermonuclear bomb metaphor earlier in this thread, I do agree that the way you and OP want it to work is how it should work

[Siegecraft]

when the kuva transfer first came out it took me two time to relalise my mistake of not looking at the element

man i felt stupid as f

Edited February 6, 2020 by Reakacemrz

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

28 minutes ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

Didn't the Valence Transfer gift the Forma + Catalyst to the donor item? Why would this fusion system omit such an obviously desirable benefit? Did they go out of their way to make this work in such a manner? Didn't Valence Transfer also destroy one of the items or does that argument only work if it's thematic?

If they were going to change the functionality in such a way, it definitely warranted a much deeper explanation in the patch notes. As it stands, this seems like a side-grade instead of a strictly superior option.

Truly baffling.

If I'm misunderstanding something, I apologize.

 

No, it never gifted anything to the new item. Here's how it currently works: Gun 1 has 5 Forma, but only 25% bonus damage. Gun 2 is brand new, but has 50% bonus damage. You destroy Gun 2 to combine its bonus with Gun 1, giving Gun 1 with its 5 Forma a 60% Bonus. What OP did is he destroyed Gun 1 instead of Gun 2. 

The only thing that changed in the latest patch is that the bonus percentages are combined instead of replaced. Before, if Gun 1 had a higher bonus than Gun 2, then Gun 2 would be completely useless to you. Now, it doesn't matter which one has a higher bonus, but the game still makes it very clear that you're choosing one gun to upgrade, and one gun to sacrifice. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by (XB1)Erudite Prime

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I do think a tutorial should be added. Some people are gonna make mistakes no matter what unless they are visually walked through it. That's not stupidity or anything, it's just some people learn in different ways than others

But hey, I'm just after the weapons for MR so what do I know lol.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

41 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

I do think a tutorial should be added. 

Why need a tutorial when the information is put right in front of you in plain English? What could the tutorial even be? 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

Why need a tutorial when the information is put right in front of you in plain English? What could the tutorial even be? 

Hey I agree, people gotta read more, but I guess that's too hard for some, and let's be honest, DE could do a LOT better in the tutorial department...

[ArcKnight9202]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

No, it never gifted anything to the new item. Here's how it currently works: Gun 1 has 5 Forma, but only 25% bonus damage. Gun 2 is brand new, but has 50% bonus damage. You destroy Gun 2 to combine its bonus with Gun 1, giving Gun 1 with its 5 Forma a 60% Bonus. What OP did is he destroyed Gun 1 instead of Gun 2. 

The only thing that changed in the latest patch is that the bonus percentages are combined instead of replaced. Before, if Gun 1 had a higher bonus than Gun 2, then Gun 2 would be completely useless to you. Now, it doesn't matter which one has a higher bonus, but the game still makes it very clear that you're choosing one gun to upgrade, and one gun to sacrifice. 

I appreciate you clearing that up. Thanks for the example. I haven't actually touched the Valence XYZ system because I'm still trying to figure out why the weapons roll with different IPS stats as well as elemental. That's off-topic, though. I have no experience with the system.

Now, to clarify what I think my misunderstanding was, is that in this post there is a small example given:

New Kuva Weapon Combining: VALENCE TRANSFER
Replace a Kuva weapon’s innate damage bonus with one from another Kuva weapon of the same kind. This process destroys the donor weapon and overrides the previous Kuva weapons damage bonus.
 
For example: everything you've done on Kuva Seer A will stay (Forma, Potato, Lens, Mod Configs, Appearance Configs, etc) when Kuva Seer B is consumed. The buff from Kuva Seer B will be passed onto Kuva Seer A, and Kuva Seer B will cease to exist in your Inventory.

How to:

1. Head to your Arsenal
2. Navigate to the Upgrade screen of the desired Kuva weapon
3. Select ACTIONS and then the new VALENCE TRANSFER option 
4. Select the Kuva weapon you would like to consume
5. Type TRANSFER into the prompt to confirm the consumption - this also displays what buff you are replacing
6. Grofit!

The bolded emphasis is mine. I think the reason there is confusion is because this does NOT state that the reverse isn't also possible. There is no mention here of the potential to lose everything, either. I could have made a grievous error myself if I wanted to keep my original Kuva Quartakk even though it's weaker than one I got later. I wanted to keep my very first Lich drop as a trophy and this system could have totally ruined it.

I suppose I just won't ever use these functions, haha.

Edit: To clarify, it reads, to me, as if the weapons customization in total is transferred to the donor, not just the elemental. Even if that's not how it's supposed to be read, the possibility that it can be read in such a way is why laws/policies/whatever are often written in specific and technical language to remove any and all ambiguity.

Edited February 6, 2020 by ArcKnight9202

[kwlingo]

You have to use equip the weapon you forma'ed. Then fuse the others onto them. Works perfectly fine. It even tells you the changes before you have to type in "transfer"

[Marvelous_A]

Apparently the system is providing insufficient description for this to ever happen.

A simple single line of "Polarization and catalyst of this weapon will not carry over to the fused weapon" would have worked great.

[vegetosayajin]

For that kinda things I always go with toxin and keep my original weapon...from habit.
 

24 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

A simple single line of "Polarization and catalyst of this weapon will not carry over to the fused weapon" would have worked great.

That's the thing, it does, you just have to select your original weapon first, not the new one.
It isn't explained right, I agree.

Edited February 6, 2020 by vegetosayajin

[HugintheCrow]

22 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Apparently the system is providing insufficient description for this to ever happen.

A simple single line of "Polarization and catalyst of this weapon will not carry over to the fused weapon" would have worked great.

It does.

Right here:

1 hour ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

Why need a tutorial when the information is put right in front of you in plain English? What could the tutorial even be? 

 

[Syln]

So basically you can't change your weapon element without starting forma and stuff all over again ? ^

Never had to change so i didn't knew, that's silly !

[(PSN)Silverback73]

5 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

  

It's accurate. 

  

There's no info that has been given. He just did it wrong.

If it’s 2 of the same weapon type, then forma’d slots need to remain the same REGARDLESS of which weapon you “choose first”.

I don’t care if DE wrote a blurb.  I would not even make it an option to wipe out this type of progress.

The option to “do it wrong” never should have been a choice on DE’s part.

This is a complete “best practices”/quality control failure.

There are ONLY 2 feasible reasons (perception-wise) that DE allowed it to be coded so valence fusion could strip away Forma progress:

1.  They WANT players to be able to choose to lose progress (?)

2.  They didn’t have time to safely code it because it’s “too hard” (reminds me of the “Skins for Zaws are too hard to do” argument that they rectified when they realized it was both a profit and QoL sticking point”).

It’s a bad look.  And I’m guessing DE will work to change it.

Edited February 6, 2020 by (PS4)Silverback73

[HugintheCrow]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

1.  They WANT players to be able to choose to lose progress (?)

If you want to change the element of a weapon, then yes, you will need to lose the "progress".

That seems intentional.

[Numerikuu]

9 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Something to check is this (from the patch notes):

*PS: It matters which order you Valence Fuse them in. The weapon that you START from, the one where you click "Actions", is the one that will be kept with its investments.

If you knew that already then you've definitely had a bug occur, as they have specifically stated it should carry Forma across. Make a post in the Feedback section of the Forums (DE doesn't really read General Discussion) and then log a ticket with Support to get your stuff back.

They'll probably even give your stuff back if it wasn't a bug and you just messed up the transfer as per the above note.

Thing is, this should be a note in the game. Not everyone checks the forums, as OP has shown. Something this goddamn important should be in the game. DE should have made it so that prior to infusing a weapon--especially a forma'd one etc--a warning popup should show telling you that 'hey, you're about to destroy your 5 forma whatever. Are you really sure you want to do that?'

Seriously though, if there is one thing about Warframe that has irked me like hell for years, it's the fact that too much information of the game is outside of the game.

3 hours ago, Pr1A said:

Perhaps you should've read the confirmation dialog more carefully?

 

Ah so it does have one. Nevermind then lmao.

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Numerikuu

[HugintheCrow]

1 minute ago, Numerikuu said:

DE should have made it so that prior to infusing a weapon--especially a forma'd one etc--a warning popup should show telling you that 'hey, you're about to destroy your 5 forma whatever. Are you really sure you want to do that?'

They did.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

Why need a tutorial when the information is put right in front of you in plain English? What could the tutorial even be? 

 

[ArcKnight9202]

1 hour ago, HugintheCrow said:

They did.

 

I think it could be easily argued that that little blurb of text only really says that the weapon itself will be destroyed, not that any customization done to said weapon will also be destroyed. Irreversibly losing the donor weapon is likely fine for most players in most situations. Losing the customization items is probably not, though.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say that this warning doesn't entirely make sense. If you already know the system, it's just fine. But the problem with something like this is that it's ambiguous and can be understood differently. This leads to mistakes.

As mentioned previously, I thought it moved any modifications(forma/potato/exilus) from gun to gun. This system is absolutely tragic. For something that utilizes RMT items, it's pretty sloppy.

Edit: Thinking about this, doesn't this not actually help reduce grind? Since it works on a stat+10% for fusion(correct me if I'm remembering this wrong), isn't it just best to grind out the highest element for that first before fusing? Otherwise, if you forma a weak-bonus weapon, you have to slog through a lot more to get it all the way to 60%. If you get a stronger one, you can't transfer all your previously done work to the already-better version. That seems pretty annoying to me.

Edited February 6, 2020 by ArcKnight9202

[HugintheCrow]

1 minute ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

I think it could be easily argued that that little blurb of text only really says that the weapon itself will be destroyed, not that any customization done to said weapon will also be destroyed.

Notice how it says:" HIND (1 FORMA)"?

It specifically tells you how much you're gonna lose if you go through with it.

[ArcKnight9202]

34 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

Notice how it says:" HIND (1 FORMA)"?

It specifically tells you how much you're gonna lose if you go through with it.

And it says I'm going to lose a gun that already has one forma in it. The gun itself. It mentions nothing about the polarities or catalysts not carrying over. The fact that you and I can even debate this is the entire reason for its failure.

Edit: This isn't to say you or anyone else here is wrong. The problem is that if it can be reasonably misunderstood, it will be by someone. This entire thread is evidence of it being possible. Regardless of the reason.

Edited February 6, 2020 by ArcKnight9202
Clarity

[DeerioJim]

4 hours ago, Pr1A said:

Perhaps you should've read the confirmation dialog more carefully?

Yeah I think OP could've read the confirmation dialog a bit more clearly. 
But at the same time the confirmation text isnt super clear on what it means, I can see it being confusing for people who doesnt have english as their first language. 

[Vox_Preliator]

33 minutes ago, DeerioJim said:

Yeah I think OP could've read the confirmation dialog a bit more clearly. 
But at the same time the confirmation text isnt super clear on what it means, I can see it being confusing for people who doesnt have english as their first language. 

What about it isn't clear?  It very very specifically states exactly what is going to happen:  The bonus on the original will change, and the second one is consumed.  Nothing else.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Vox_Preliator

[Ham_Grenabe]

The system works unless you perform the operation incorrectly. However, two things about this system cause trouble. 

1. Previously, you only wanted to burn the better weapon into the worse one. Now it works either way, but you still might instinctively say "I need to give the big bonus to the little bonus."

2. CRITICALLY, DE should have coded this to prevent the consumption of a weapon with any progress at all -- so you always and only improve the weapon you already own. (and if you claim two guns at the same time and fuse them, then obviously it doesn't matter then which one you pick). 

#1 can't be helped. However, given the volume of people having problems here just on the forums, number 2 could and should be part of the next hotfix.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Ham_Grenabe

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

Stupidity deserves requires punishment.