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Learn from Tetris


SordidDreams
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Remember that old game called Tetris? Ever play it? Ever notice how the random distribution of pieces is relatively uniform? That's because the pieces you get aren't randomized on a piece-by-piece basis. Instead, the game generates a random sequence of all seven pieces, then a new sequence once you've gone through the previous one, thereby ensuring that you never get an excessive unlucky streak where the game just refuses to give you the piece you need.

The fact that kuva weapons are not handled the same way boggles the mind. This lesson can also be applied to various other RNG in WF. Please learn it.

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Meh, takes about 1 minute to run cassini to generate a lich and try for a weapon. That's far better than 3 hours to get one chance at a weapon. I can live with it. I don't disagree that a more intelligent RNG distribution system would be nice, but every time we ask for improvements like this DE just thinks "How much faster will players complete our content if we let them grind less?".

Edited by Skaleek
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14 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Remember that old game called Tetris? Ever play it? Ever notice how the random distribution of pieces is relatively uniform? That's because the pieces you get aren't randomized on a piece-by-piece basis. Instead, the game generates a random sequence of all seven pieces, then a new sequence once you've gone through the previous one, thereby ensuring that you never get an excessive unlucky streak where the game just refuses to give you the piece you need.

The fact that kuva weapons are not handled the same way boggles the mind. This lesson can also be applied to various other RNG in WF. Please learn it.

Except Tetris forces you to use those pieces it generates.  You never see the piece prior, nor have the choice to simply not generate that piece.  If you don't want a particular Kuva weapon then just use your eyes and use your brain and don't stab the Larvae.

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10 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Meh, takes about 1 minute to run cassini to generate a lich. That's far better than 3 hours to get the weapons I want. I can live with it. I don't disagree that a more intelligent RNG distribution system would be nice, but everytime we ask for improvements like this DE just thinks "How much faster will players complete our content if we let them grind less?".

When you put it like that, I see how silly my suggestion is. We must now allow a grind gap!

7 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

Except Tetris forces you to use those pieces it generates.  You never see the piece prior, nor have the choice to simply not generate that piece.  If you don't want a particular Kuva weapon then just use your eyes and use your brain and don't stab the Larvae.

What is it with WF players shooting down proposals that have no detrimental effect on them and can only ever benefit them?

Also, Tetris does in fact show you what the next piece is going to be.

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12 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

Except Tetris forces you to use those pieces it generates.  You never see the piece prior, nor have the choice to simply not generate that piece.  If you don't want a particular Kuva weapon then just use your eyes and use your brain and don't stab the Larvae.

This.

You have 30 seconds to make up your mind of "Do I want to stab this larva and get this weapon?  Or do I not want this weapon and try again the next run?"

And considering how quickly Cassini goes by its not hard to just generate larva after larva after larva after larva until you get the weapon you want in a relatively short amount of time.
Sure it took me 6 runs to get a new weapon from a Larva...but I did that in just around 10 minutes (which includes loading times, and completing the mission) through running Cassini.
And with how the percentages stack now, with a guaranteed minimum 10% growth of the highest bonus damage that takes care of that part of the RNG process almost completely as now you have guaranteed progress.

Its not like generating the weapon you want takes hours upon hours upon hours of grinding.
Sure that time is spent actually killing your lich (generally 2 hours, sometimes 3 or 4 if your lich just adamantly refuses to spawn even ta max rage which is a different topic), but for actually getting the weapon you want its fairly fast.

If we were stuck with the old way of not knowing until after we get the lich what weapon it'll have I would be more inclined to agree with OP...but as it stands?  the system works.

28 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

This lesson can also be applied to various other RNG in WF.

Please explain how to apply it to a multiplayer game with shared drops?
Who in the lobby is going to have their RNG sequence honored, and who is going to get screwed because they just happened to group up with the wrong people?

You seem to be missing a critical component here: Tetris is single player so they don't need to worry about "Player A has this sequence and is on number X in the sequence, Player B has a completely different sequence and is on number Y in that sequence...."

Edited by Tsukinoki
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Just now, Tsukinoki said:

its not hard to just generate larva after larva after larva after larva until you get the weapon you want

True, which is why I didn't say that it was. My point is that it's pointlessly tedious.

1 minute ago, Tsukinoki said:

Sure it took me 6 runs to get a new weapon from a Larva...but I did that in just around 10 minutes (which includes loading times, and completing the mission) through running Cassini.

Good for you, it took me an hour to get the bow the first time, and of course it was 25%. Now it's been several hours without seeing a second bow. I am more than a little annoyed, and I'd argue annoyance is not a feeling an entertainment product should evoke.

3 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Its not like generating the weapon you want takes hours upon hours upon hours of grinding.

Oh sweet summer child...

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7 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

When you put it like that, I see how silly my suggestion is. We must now allow a grind gap!

Hey I didn't say I don't support the idea, I'm just saying its basically in exact opposition to their ultimate goal, making us play longer.

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29 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Well the current system is making me not want to play at all.

Really? You aren't inclined to play this system moreso than the old system?

29 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

What say you to that?

I say that's the balance that they are constantly trying to find. I'm infinitely more inclined to play the current system than the previous system. So they tipped the scales one way. You feel the balance still isn't there. They want you to play their system longer, whilst not burning out. I think you know that i've been pretty harsh in my feedback about DE's mishandling of RNG in the past, specifically the lich system. I've only done 4 Liches on the new system so i will still need some time to determine whether i feel this is oppressive, but in comparison, its nothing like the old system.

I haven't experienced taking an hour to get a specific weapon from a larvling yet, so maybe I will change my tune when/if I do. Although at the speed i run cassini i would have to get incredibly unlucky to experience this.

Also, i could also say "You're still here playing, so what do you say to that?", if i wanted to make this an easy argument, because I don't think you're going anywhere. That's just my gut telling me though, since I think you're a lot like me.

Edited by Skaleek
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30 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Really? You aren't inclined to play this system moreso than the old system?

Only in the sense that I'm morbidly curious how much longer the game is going to withhold the damn weapon from me. I don't expect to engage with this system very much in the future.

30 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

i will still need some time to determine whether i feel this is oppressive, but in comparison, its nothing like the old system

I agree, but not in a way you'd like. The old system was so insanely terrible that I just gave up on it entirely, so it didn't annoy me. This? This dangles the carrot just close enough that the inability to reach it does actually have a negative emotional effect on me. Again, I don't think annoyance is a feeling an entertainment product should be designed to evoke.

30 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

at the speed i run cassini i would have to get incredibly unlucky to experience this

Yeah, you said one minute. If you abort, I can believe that. If you run to the exit to get that 100 kuva,  2 or 3 is more realistic. That's what I'm managing without using Volt or Gauss (since I don't want those elements). Though I'm probably going to start aborting, that 100 kuva is just not worth it.

Edited by SordidDreams
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1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

What is it with WF players shooting down proposals that have no detrimental effect on them and can only ever benefit them?

Maybe because we don't believe the proposals are the best solution.  A solution I could agree with would be to inform the player in-game about what Liches are so anything that happens after that point is solely on them.  I've never liked the idea of dismissing in-game mechanics, the player should learn the game systems and overcome them.

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

Also, Tetris does in fact show you what the next piece is going to be.

Seems I missed an 's' in my comment.  Was meaning "pieces", as in the set of generated items.  Error on my part.

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1 minute ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

Maybe because we don't believe the proposals are the best solution.  A solution I could agree with would be to inform the player in-game about what Liches are so anything that happens after that point is solely on them.  I've never liked the idea of dismissing in-game mechanics, the player should learn the game systems and overcome them.

Dismissing? No, the point is improving game mechanics. I agree that WF needs to explain itself much better than it does now (patch notes are not the place to put tutorials, dammit), but explaining bad mechanics doesn't make them any less bad.

Edited by SordidDreams
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8 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

This.

You have 30 seconds to make up your mind of "Do I want to stab this larva and get this weapon?  Or do I not want this weapon and try again the next run?"

And considering how quickly Cassini goes by its not hard to just generate larva after larva after larva after larva until you get the weapon you want in a relatively short amount of time.
Sure it took me 6 runs to get a new weapon from a Larva...but I did that in just around 10 minutes (which includes loading times, and completing the mission) through running Cassini.
And with how the percentages stack now, with a guaranteed minimum 10% growth of the highest bonus damage that takes care of that part of the RNG process almost completely as now you have guaranteed progress.

Its not like generating the weapon you want takes hours upon hours upon hours of grinding.
Sure that time is spent actually killing your lich (generally 2 hours, sometimes 3 or 4 if your lich just adamantly refuses to spawn even ta max rage which is a different topic), but for actually getting the weapon you want its fairly fast.

If we were stuck with the old way of not knowing until after we get the lich what weapon it'll have I would be more inclined to agree with OP...but as it stands?  the system works.

Please explain how to apply it to a multiplayer game with shared drops?
Who in the lobby is going to have their RNG sequence honored, and who is going to get screwed because they just happened to group up with the wrong people?

You seem to be missing a critical component here: Tetris is single player so they don't need to worry about "Player A has this sequence and is on number X in the sequence, Player B has a completely different sequence and is on number Y in that sequence...."

It doesn't matter that the last iteration was a rotten turd, and now this is a fresh turd with glitter on it. You can call that improvement, but are you genuinely having fun doing this?

Sure, the time you spent (with RNG favoring you) wasn't too bad. But step back from that for a second and think about gameplay experience. The reasonable thing for you to do is jump into the same mission where you're supposed to be capturing a target towards some greater goal, you do this repeatedly, and as soon as you see a larvae (if it spawns) that doesn't have the weapon you want, you abandon and abort the mission. Immediately, you redo the mission and repeat this cycle until you get what you want.

This is horrifically immersion breaking and not fun. At least not to me. Do you think that is fun? Or do you just see it as a necessary evil that isn't too bad, all things considered? If you find it fun, I would dare say get a job instead. You will have more enjoyment and less frustration, and be paid, to boot.

For all I know, you're 14 and can't get a job, or you've had a successful career for decades. All types play Warframe. My point is, I'm just not seeing the fun factor in the design on top of it being massively immersion breaking and just weakly thought out. All the creative effort went into, 'how do we make them play more', and none of it went into actually making the process enjoyable so people would actually want to play. It's more like just manipulating people who are too addicted to the game to walk away from it to just keep grinding away instead of leaving and doing something with their time they would actually enjoy. That is a travesty of design work on many levels.

If it's not that, then their code is so convoluted that anything besides just rehashing what's already there would simply implode the game and break it beyond any saving. Judging by how buggy the game is to this day and how we alpha and then beta test all of their new content for them, I'm definitely willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that this could be a serious issue as well.

But the real key point brought out is the multiplayer dilemma. All opinions on entertainment value aside, this is something that would need to be addressed if the system were to change. And I hope it changes massively, like, almost from the ground up. I just started my second lich and I'm already feeling like, my god why did I even do that. That's a horribly sad state for brand new content (I only did my first lich within the last couple days).

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22 minutes ago, Fiddlestixxx said:

This is horrifically immersion breaking and not fun.

Depending on how cynical you want to be, you could conclude that DE want this to not be fun, to motivate you to buy some plat and just trade for the lich you want instead of suffering through this. Oh, the joys of the free-to-play business model...

22 minutes ago, Fiddlestixxx said:

I just started my second lich and I'm already feeling like, my god why did I even do that.

I know the feeling. And don't even get me started on how easy it is to zone out during this monotonous grind and accidentally stab a larvling you didn't mean to, condemning yourself to hours upon hours of grind just to get rid of the damn thing. That's a whole other can of worms that deserves its own thread.

Edited by SordidDreams
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vor 9 Stunden schrieb Tsukinoki:

And considering how quickly Cassini goes by its not hard to just generate larva after larva after larva after larva until you get the weapon you want in a relatively short amount of time.

Sure it took me 6 runs to get a new weapon from a Larva...but I did that in just around 10 minutes (which includes loading times, and completing the mission) through running Cassini.

Its not like generating the weapon you want takes hours upon hours upon hours of grinding.

Is that true? I'm no expert so pls correct me if I'm wrong. Some numbers for you:

  • There are 16 Kuva weapons, each at 1/16th chance, equals 6.25%
  • To get "the weapon you want" with 90% probability, you'd need to do 36 runs
  • To get "the weapon you want" with 99% probability, you'd need to do 71 runs
  • At a rate of 10min/6runs that's 60min for 90% or 119 min for 99%
  • I consider both these times NOT "a relatively short amount of time" speedrunning capture missions back to back

Real RNG (I know we don't have real real RNG here) is often perceived as unfair and not random. I think @SordidDreams intention was to call for a rotation system that brings up every Kuva weapon once in 16 Larvling kills.

And the same principle CAN very much be applied to a multiplayer game with shared drops (which is irrelevant) for example when farming a specific set of mods (Proton, Tek or similar), weapon parts, boss drops etc.

Edited by (XB1)OdinAsteroid
typo
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9 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Who in the lobby is going to have their RNG sequence honored, and who is going to get screwed because they just happened to group up with the wrong people?

THANK YOU. It's refreshing to see people who actually understand how algorithms work every once in a while.

As a general rule of thumb, an algorithm is NOT capable of accounting for the output of another instance of the same algorithm which is going on at the same time. Meaning that, in the situation this guy described, the game would outright crash (if no system for giving priority to an instance over another exists), or it would help one player while screwing another (if a system for giving priority, which I must stress would be COMPLETELY ARBITRARY, does exist).

Thus, this kind of proposal is simply not feasible. It cannot be made to work. That's it, that's how it is.

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I can imagine someone could come up with an algorithm that prevents the game from crashing when more than one instances of that algorithm are going on. You could just prioritize the host's algorithm. It's not very productive for farming Kuva weapons, but for a set of four mods I can totally see it work. The squad would only need to run the bounty/boss/enemy four times and everyone got what they needed?!

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1 hour ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

THANK YOU. It's refreshing to see people who actually understand how algorithms work every once in a while.

As a general rule of thumb, an algorithm is NOT capable of accounting for the output of another instance of the same algorithm which is going on at the same time. Meaning that, in the situation this guy described, the game would outright crash (if no system for giving priority to an instance over another exists), or it would help one player while screwing another (if a system for giving priority, which I must stress would be COMPLETELY ARBITRARY, does exist).

Thus, this kind of proposal is simply not feasible. It cannot be made to work. That's it, that's how it is.

I like how you guys have completely seized on this minor point as if it completely invalidates the main point of the thread. You may think you understand algorithms, but you don't understand discussions.

Allow me to put your concerns to rest by stating the obvious: I was not referring to shared drops.

Edited by SordidDreams
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2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

I like how you guys have completely seized on this minor point as if it completely invalidates the main point of the thread. You may think you understand algorithms, but you don't understand discussions.

Oh I'm sorry, you're absolutely right. Let's spend 5 more pages talking about how great it would be to implement a function that cannot and will not be implemented. That will be "understanding discussions", will it?

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12 minutes ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

Oh I'm sorry, you're absolutely right. Let's spend 5 more pages talking about how great it would be to implement a function that cannot and will not be implemented. That will be "understanding discussions", will it?

Evidently you also don't understand how the larvling/lich system works. Kuva larvlings are not shared, there's nothing preventing such a system from being implemented.

1 hour ago, (XB1)OdinAsteroid said:

I think @SordidDreams intention was to call for a rotation system that brings up every Kuva weapon once in 16 Larvling kills.

On average, yes. Due to randomness within each rotation, the interval could be more than that.

Edited by SordidDreams
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3 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Evidently you also don't understand how the larvling/lich system works.

I simply was assuming yours to be a general point and not a point limited to larvlings, given then, as others have pointed out, right now Cassini makes the larvling process so ridiculously easy it would be downright laughable to suggest a large mechanical change JUST for that. I sincerely apologize for overestimating your ability to think rationally.

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3 minutes ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

I simply was assuming

There's your problem. Maybe next time respond to what people say rather than what you assume they mean? Just a thought.

3 minutes ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

as others have pointed out, right now Cassini makes the larvling process so ridiculously easy

And there you go doing it again. As I have pointed out to the other guy, I never said it's not easy. I said it's tedious. So again you're arguing against something nobody said, and not only that, you're repeating points that have already been debunked. Remember how I said you don't understand how discussions work? Yeah, this is what I meant.

Edited by SordidDreams
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