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Klokwerkaos

What I learned on my latest break from warframe at destiny 2

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Recently (after the new year) with the limitations of what railjack does in the game and the horrible initial implementation (even though it is fun, it's overly grindy and repetitive as you grind out those rank 10s, and yes, I know a lot has been done to fix railjack and the infamous awful lich system at launch).

So I went over to D2 to figure out what they were doing and why anyone cared about this game.

What warframe does better: 
-Special abilities

-unique playstyles (which of course makes warframe worse at overall game balance)

-melee combat

-wider array of weaponry (though their exotic system does feel more profound because you have to earn the better gear with in game actions/activies, rather than just grinding the same map 5000x on ultra easy mode until the thing you need drops).

-character mobility/combat loop

-character customization and aesthetics
-load times


What Destiny 2/Bungie does better:

-Core gameply loop reliant on bounties/activities, rather than just speed murder
-Season Pass (gives a better rate of return on investment for time spent)
-PVP (actually functional and fun, adds a whole new dimension to the game)
-item balance
-xp and power level/balance, this is really key.  When you die in warframe (or rather, your pet dies and you extract because it's pointless to bother without your vacuum and radar) it's because of something you couldn't reasonably prevent after 2 hours in endless without having 360 vision and a computerized brain, when you die in destiny 2, it usually feels like you made a mistake and/or the enemy earned it.  This also consequently, makes combat feel more weighty and makes the game far more engaging where as with warframe I can be braindead and not slept in 24 hours and still have a 100% guaranteed mission success.
-more enemy factions and better enemy ai
-bows, just all of it.
-regular events and updates (cough cough cough)
-Game stability (massively better, where warframe has so many glitches and bugs constantly that you get numb to them over time, D2 is almost entirely stable and bug free with very few glitches and bugs in an entire playthrough experience: currently rank 146/100 in season pass as of this writing)

-amazing raid design (cough cough)
-Actually feeling like you are earning in the endgame phases and are rewarded for playing rather than having endless rng loops that are frustrating to the player.  There is rng in destiny 2, but it's much less frustrating.  If anything, the rub with rng and grind is what made me fed up with warframe again, second time in 1 year.  At a certain point warframe stops feeling like fun and starts feeling like a job to get the thing I want, and I don't want to feel like it's a job, and this is all because the amount of reward vs time invested is completely ridiculous, speaking as an MR 27 player with about 7k hours in mission.  Warframe suffers from the "daily chores" problem that WoW has, in that it forces you to do repetitive tasks for minimal reward.

While warframe certainly has it's strengths, they honestly lose out on which is more enjoyable to play for extended play sessions.  That said, d2 is likely far more casual, but it still serves the hardcore players by having excellent raids (not this half measure squad link stuff they keep trying to bait us with) and pvp.

Because of this I'd strongly urge the DE devs to take a look at these areas in the game and steal everything they can as far as conceptual design models, or improve where they overlap (for example, you could liken bounties to warframe factions, it's just that d2 does that whole system 1000x better).

Mainly the feeling of being rewarded is very absent in warframe as of late, everything is launched in the last 2 years is launched as a massive grind fest and it just feels crappy and then after a year of it being sucky they buff it out for the casuals and it just feels like they don't respect their most dedicated players to launch something in an even close to finished state, and really aren't as good at listening to players as they used to be, although I am glad to see the lich and railjack updates, this is stuff that really was low hanging fruit I feel like they shouldn't need to be told, like "hey, this thing you launched is super broken and far too grindy to ever be enjoyable".  It just feels like at this point it's some kind of sick stockholm syndrome with the player base to see how much crap (grind/rng/broken launches) we'll put up with, which really sucks because I really love playing warframe.

I'm also likely going to be looking at star citizen soon too, since they are really pushing what is possible with space adventure and it would be really cool to see some of what they are doing end up as features as some point once the tech is better perfected, like, why shouldn't we eventually have capital ships and space stations, and planets covered in cities we can fully explore and run impromptu missions on?  Why can't we visit a corpus city?  Why can't we see a huge grineer mining colony?  Obviously not any time soon but these are things I think should one day be in the future of warframe, obviously storyline pending as nothing like that will likely be possible till after the new war and the tech is pioneered sufficiently.

I'm also keeping my eyes on Cyberpunk this year as well to see how and what it implements successfully to hopefully help warframe become even better over time with feedback.

Also DE devs, skins are not content, maybe technically so, but when players are mad because nothing is being released, the answer isn't more skins...




 

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Nah, WF just needs more types of Shawzins. /s

DE's choices and priorities are weird.

Fairly sure DE staff has played D2 and knows all about it though. But they're also stubborn and have probably become lazy (sorry DE). Years of no real competition gets you into a "do whatever" kind of attitude. And it shows in the numbers :) 

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I am not going to disagree with anything said. I saw a lot of points that I feel the same way. But I kind of want WF and D2 to remain different as I like them both. I am not a fan of the bounty/pursuit daily loop in D2. I am not a fan of the lack of balance in WF. But I don't know! I don't know if I want them both to be made similar! 🤔

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Oh, wait. Destiny 2 has a more attractive loot system. Getting drops that I can equip while offworld is really exciting. And even though I can't really mod weapons in D2 like I can in WF it is cool to get the same weapon I already have but with perks that reward me for playing different. Makes the mind want to try it out.

Check out this page. https://www.light.gg/db/items/3924212056/loud-lullaby/
I had this gun for a while, but I got a drop with new perks on it that were so fun to use that I made a review. My review is at the bottom and explains it!

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Id disagree on pretty much everything besides the raids theyre quite nice but the entry barrier is so huge most normal players are never going to get into it since theres no matchmaking and the community isnt really helpful in carrying newbies.

Its power balance makes me feel like a baby even when my characters is maxed out unless you have a full team most higher power activities are near uncompletable.I always feel like my character is made out of tissue paper when facing more then like 4 or 5 enemies.
The rng drops and perks frustrate me to no end because i never have a clue if i got a "god roll" or not since the stats page is just a bunch of fckin bars that dont really show me anything same with the perks why is there no concrete numbers.

People might praise the bounties but i hate them and everything they stand for.You have to waste minutes running between every damn vendor so you can pick them all up and then you have to play specific activities or use specific weapons or elements to finish them which just kills my enjoyment of running builds i like.Plus their "endless" nature makes me feel like the game is my job not something i play for fun.

Armor 2.0 is an insane grind worse then anything ive experienced in warframe where i dont just randomly roll the drop and which piece of gear it i also roll stats and  the element so even if i get the god roll stat it might not be an element i need or even worse i have to farm another set in another element because of the way their mods and seasons work.Why we still cant change the element on our gear with some kind of item or consumable i have no idea.The Menagerie does help out a bit but you cant get all the weapons in the game from the menagerie.

So many of its quests and bounties are just giant checklists "go kill 50 enemies with headshots" then "go kill 20 enemies with solar damage" that just make me feel so bored and apathetic to the game.Its lore is quite intresting but the lack of intresting interactable characters is a joke the only kind of intresting one is Saint 14 because he seems just like a normal person.

Pvp is just a mess of  overpowered things that make playing pvp competitively a frustrating experience.

Even the leveling experience later on becomes frustrating when you have to rely on rng to drop the right gear for your character to progress further then when you hit the softcap the only way to go further is to have every gear in your slots at +1 above the softcap to raise your power by 1 point and the artifact is a kick in the nuts because all the extra power you earn through it goes away once the season ends.

To me the only thing Destiny has over Warframe is Raids and more money thrown into cinematic stories.Destiny has changed very little over its life time and has more in fact doubled down on its worst parts now that Bungie has split with Activision more paid dlc,paid season passes,constant Eververse microtransactions while the ingame vendors havent had an inventory refresh since the game came out.

Even with all the problems Warframe has changed a lot over the years and keeps going i mean for gods sake with got actual space battles with ships and space jetpacks before Destiny has even tried anything expansive or innovative.

Not hating on anyone who enjoys Destiny but id rather De not take anything from them and just keep going foward on their own.They said they are planning to reintroduce Raids back into the game and thats about all id even consider and pvp has never really had a place in warframe thx to its power fantasy and movement I would just add some racing modes or parkour speed trials and be done with actual player vs player content.

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1 hour ago, Gravitus123 said:

Id disagree on pretty much everything besides the raids theyre quite nice but the entry barrier is so huge most normal players are never going to get into it since theres no matchmaking and the community isnt really helpful in carrying newbies.

I was raiding at 3 weeks with literally no idea what I was doing to get there, I just jumped in and played.  Granted, I'm not a newb, and I go hard in the paint, but if you look at the barrier to entry for something like say, arbitrations, yes, you can also get that in three weeks as well, but most players won't be there for years, where as with destiny I'd assume six months max.

1 hour ago, Gravitus123 said:

Its power balance makes me feel like a baby even when my characters is maxed out unless you have a full team most higher power activities are near uncompletable.I always feel like my character is made out of tissue paper when facing more then like 4 or 5 enemies.

This is a cursed development problem "I want all the power" vs "I want challenge" you can't really have it both ways.  I don't know many people that have achieved top level power and can solo carry 4 man arbs for hours without difficulty that don't feel that warframe's power level is a bit absurd and the combat has no depth or weight.  Thankfully the looks at enemy scaling will hopefully help with this, but they really have to look at enemy ai as well, for example one of the things in d2 is that enemies have different tactics based on what faction you are facing, not just different damage types, attack types and weaknesses.  For example the fallen bob and weave, while the taken will split and make duplicates if you don't take them out quickly, etc.

All in all the enemy design and power level is just better.  I think there is still a way to find a good middle ground too without nerfing everything into oblivion, except for the pvp aspect which I think the best option is to standardize dps for weapons based on type and then simply focus on balancing abilities except for maybe a monthly or annual event situation where that gets disabled and we run with everything at full power for people that want to engage in that.

Ultimately you can have depth of customization and weighty combat, it's just it takes a careful hand to balance it effectively, and after years of complaining we're just now seeing them start to take these concerns seriously.

1 hour ago, Gravitus123 said:

People might praise the bounties but i hate them and everything they stand for.You have to waste minutes running between every damn vendor so you can pick them all up and then you have to play specific activities or use specific weapons or elements to finish them which just kills my enjoyment of running builds i like.Plus their "endless" nature makes me feel like the game is my job not something i play for fun.

So your complaint is that collecting the bounties should be streamlined.  I agree.  What I don't agree with is that this makes activities not fun and rewarding.  The thing is, fixing your complaint is easy... you just get bounties in your orbiter with the option to pick them up manually if you want at say a relay or something.

1 hour ago, Gravitus123 said:

Armor 2.0 is an insane grind worse then anything ive experienced in warframe where i dont just randomly roll the drop and which piece of gear it i also roll stats and  the element so even if i get the god roll stat it might not be an element i need or even worse i have to farm another set in another element because of the way their mods and seasons work.Why we still cant change the element on our gear with some kind of item or consumable i have no idea.The Menagerie does help out a bit but you cant get all the weapons in the game from the menagerie.

You haven't grinded warframe much then.  Did you do the old tower white condroc farm?  What about hema solo research?  What about blah blah blah... point being in terms of grind you are far worse off in warframe, especially if you are 100% f2p.  It's not even a contest.  Additionally where as you have mandatory mods in warframe that are essential to min/maxing, in d2 you can more or less just acquire stuff at a natural rate and even a crap build is viable, where as that is not true in warframe.

1 hour ago, Gravitus123 said:

Pvp is just a mess of  overpowered things that make playing pvp competitively a frustrating experience.

My experience was very different.  I want to be clear that I suck at pvp, and did not have close to min/maxed gear, and did iron banner and managed to pull off a 3 ish k:d, and had a blast doing it.  This however, is subjective, but I think that's kind of my point.  The fact that warframe's pvp sucks however, is not subjective, it's widely heralded as abandoned like lunaro and sees about as much use as flappy zephyr.

1 hour ago, Gravitus123 said:

So many of its quests and bounties are just giant checklists "go kill 50 enemies with headshots" then "go kill 20 enemies with solar damage" that just make me feel so bored and apathetic to the game.Its lore is quite intresting but the lack of intresting interactable characters is a joke the only kind of intresting one is Saint 14 because he seems just like a normal person.

This is no different from the same stuff we have in nightwave, thus making warframe not "better" in this regard.

1 hour ago, Gravitus123 said:

Even the leveling experience later on becomes frustrating when you have to rely on rng to drop the right gear for your character to progress further then when you hit the softcap the only way to go further is to have every gear in your slots at +1 above the softcap to raise your power by 1 point and the artifact is a kick in the nuts because all the extra power you earn through it goes away once the season ends.

I have an opposing thought on that.  Since you're viable for anything at 900, getting to 970 is completely unnecessary, and gettting to 960 is pretty easy, the last 10 levels are to give a slight and more grindy reward to the most dedicated players that amounts to very little, but is doable if you're dedicated.  From a game design perspective to me this is genious.  There is still reward to earn, that is temporary (since each season ups the LL), but it gives you something to work towards that is also not impossible, but is not more grindy than anything else in warframe.

1 hour ago, Gravitus123 said:

To me the only thing Destiny has over Warframe is Raids and more money thrown into cinematic stories.Destiny has changed very little over its life time and has more in fact doubled down on its worst parts now that Bungie has split with Activision more paid dlc,paid season passes,constant Eververse microtransactions while the ingame vendors havent had an inventory refresh since the game came out.

You mean like how warframe's vendors only get an update once every billion years (not counting monthly Baro vs weekly Xul)?

additionally I don't understand why people complain about the eververse shop, if anything warframe's shop is far more egregious with things like slots and catalysts and forma and such.  I did buy the expansions and have bought nothing else from the store because I could give zero F's about emotes and skins that kinda, by comparison to warframe, are kinda ugly.  I would buy a skin if I actually liked it, but I have yet to see one I care about enough to spend a dime on.   

1 hour ago, Gravitus123 said:

Even with all the problems Warframe has changed a lot over the years and keeps going i mean for gods sake with got actual space battles with ships and space jetpacks before Destiny has even tried anything expansive or innovative.

Sure, they added railjack... which is fun... for a while, but also causes extreme burn out grinding out 10 intrinsics, and yes, warframe does have advantages, I don't deny that, but there are things they can learn from and do better, and there are lots of areas in the game that are far more broken than destiny.  Until railjack is a sustainable and integrated part of the game rather than just another content island I'm going to say it doesn't count.  What we have right now with railjack is a midly balanced tech demo, not a game.  It needs another 2 years of regular expansion to even be worth calling a proper expansion.

 

2 hours ago, Gravitus123 said:

Not hating on anyone who enjoys Destiny but id rather De not take anything from them and just keep going foward on their own.They said they are planning to reintroduce Raids back into the game and thats about all id even consider and pvp has never really had a place in warframe thx to its power fantasy and movement I would just add some racing modes or parkour speed trials and be done with actual player vs player content.

But what if a good pvp mode was introduced?  Would that not significantly improve the game?  Is such not possible? I think it is.








 

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7 hours ago, Redfeather75 said:

I am not going to disagree with anything said. I saw a lot of points that I feel the same way. But I kind of want WF and D2 to remain different as I like them both. I am not a fan of the bounty/pursuit daily loop in D2. I am not a fan of the lack of balance in WF. But I don't know! I don't know if I want them both to be made similar! 🤔

I don't think that they can ever be the same game, the tone is different, the story is different, visuals are different, I'm more discussing about analyzing their design concepts and reworking the good parts to make warframe better in areas it lags and sucks in.

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10 hours ago, Redfeather75 said:

Oh, wait. Destiny 2 has a more attractive loot system. Getting drops that I can equip while offworld is really exciting. And even though I can't really mod weapons in D2 like I can in WF it is cool to get the same weapon I already have but with perks that reward me for playing different. Makes the mind want to try it out.

Strongly disagree. I despise Destiny 2's loot system because it's like any other Random Loot system and I hate that concept altogether. At least prior to the Old Blood, Warframe's gear had fixed stats for every item. If I earned a Prisma Gorgon, I could be sure it was always going to have the "best" possible "rolls" on all of its stats and I never had to earn it again. Yes, that meant each weapon could usually only be played a single way, but that was made up by just having lots and lots of weapons. Sure, I like some of the perks in Destiny 2, especially Memento Mori. Getting faster reloads on a headshot kill AND 6 massively overpowered shots per reload in a 13-shot revolver was indeed quite fun. It's not something Warframe couldn't do, however, and DE have experimented with this of late.

What I DON'T like is having no real control over my stats. Maybe I want a rocket launcher with Cluster Explosives, but THE ONLY Exotic rocket launcher I have just didn't roll that and Lord knows when I'll get another one. Maybe I like the look of my Lion Ramparts, but the set I got rolled with low Resilience and I'm probably never going to get another set given their rarity. Maybe I DON'T like all the crappy shaman gear on the Moon, but the game insists I have that. It's mandatory for the storyline quest and it offers massive benefits against Nightmares so I'm at a disadvantage for not having it.

Honestly, I'll take Division 2 loot, especially given what they're discussing now for a Mach-ish release, over Destiny 2's. I like the actual moment-to-moment gameplay of Destiny, but I highly dislike its loot system.

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On 2020-02-06 at 10:29 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

I was raiding at 3 weeks with literally no idea what I was doing to get there, I just jumped in and played.  Granted, I'm not a newb, and I go hard in the paint, but if you look at the barrier to entry for something like say, arbitrations, yes, you can also get that in three weeks as well, but most players won't be there for years, where as with destiny I'd assume six months max.

This is a cursed development problem "I want all the power" vs "I want challenge" you can't really have it both ways.  I don't know many people that have achieved top level power and can solo carry 4 man arbs for hours without difficulty that don't feel that warframe's power level is a bit absurd and the combat has no depth or weight.  Thankfully the looks at enemy scaling will hopefully help with this, but they really have to look at enemy ai as well, for example one of the things in d2 is that enemies have different tactics based on what faction you are facing, not just different damage types, attack types and weaknesses.  For example the fallen bob and weave, while the taken will split and make duplicates if you don't take them out quickly, etc.

All in all the enemy design and power level is just better.  I think there is still a way to find a good middle ground too without nerfing everything into oblivion, except for the pvp aspect which I think the best option is to standardize dps for weapons based on type and then simply focus on balancing abilities except for maybe a monthly or annual event situation where that gets disabled and we run with everything at full power for people that want to engage in that.

Ultimately you can have depth of customization and weighty combat, it's just it takes a careful hand to balance it effectively, and after years of complaining we're just now seeing them start to take these concerns seriously.

So your complaint is that collecting the bounties should be streamlined.  I agree.  What I don't agree with is that this makes activities not fun and rewarding.  The thing is, fixing your complaint is easy... you just get bounties in your orbiter with the option to pick them up manually if you want at say a relay or something.

You haven't grinded warframe much then.  Did you do the old tower white condroc farm?  What about hema solo research?  What about blah blah blah... point being in terms of grind you are far worse off in warframe, especially if you are 100% f2p.  It's not even a contest.  Additionally where as you have mandatory mods in warframe that are essential to min/maxing, in d2 you can more or less just acquire stuff at a natural rate and even a crap build is viable, where as that is not true in warframe.

My experience was very different.  I want to be clear that I suck at pvp, and did not have close to min/maxed gear, and did iron banner and managed to pull off a 3 ish k:d, and had a blast doing it.  This however, is subjective, but I think that's kind of my point.  The fact that warframe's pvp sucks however, is not subjective, it's widely heralded as abandoned like lunaro and sees about as much use as flappy zephyr.

This is no different from the same stuff we have in nightwave, thus making warframe not "better" in this regard.

I have an opposing thought on that.  Since you're viable for anything at 900, getting to 970 is completely unnecessary, and gettting to 960 is pretty easy, the last 10 levels are to give a slight and more grindy reward to the most dedicated players that amounts to very little, but is doable if you're dedicated.  From a game design perspective to me this is genious.  There is still reward to earn, that is temporary (since each season ups the LL), but it gives you something to work towards that is also not impossible, but is not more grindy than anything else in warframe.

You mean like how warframe's vendors only get an update once every billion years (not counting monthly Baro vs weekly Xul)?

additionally I don't understand why people complain about the eververse shop, if anything warframe's shop is far more egregious with things like slots and catalysts and forma and such.  I did buy the expansions and have bought nothing else from the store because I could give zero F's about emotes and skins that kinda, by comparison to warframe, are kinda ugly.  I would buy a skin if I actually liked it, but I have yet to see one I care about enough to spend a dime on.   

Sure, they added railjack... which is fun... for a while, but also causes extreme burn out grinding out 10 intrinsics, and yes, warframe does have advantages, I don't deny that, but there are things they can learn from and do better, and there are lots of areas in the game that are far more broken than destiny.  Until railjack is a sustainable and integrated part of the game rather than just another content island I'm going to say it doesn't count.  What we have right now with railjack is a midly balanced tech demo, not a game.  It needs another 2 years of regular expansion to even be worth calling a proper expansion.

 

But what if a good pvp mode was introduced?  Would that not significantly improve the game?  Is such not possible? I think it is.








 

I really disagree on the ai front warframes ai is fine and the enemies do have more tactics then just rushing at you ,grineers drop blunts,use cover and usually stay at range where theyre safer,corpus do the same but they have a few extra toys like nullifiers and combas plus the flying drones also dodge the only ones that are kinda bad are the infested but thats because most of their units are melee they just need more diversity.If the ai was too smart it would be frustrating to play the best thing is too just add more units with specialized tactics.

I dont like feeling like im not getting stronger in a game based on getting loot in Destiny it just feels like im not stronger at all Warframe might be a more unbalanced but atleast i feel like the hours i put in mattered and my gear is strong.

I did do the hema grind but that was one weapon not my entire gear and if im hunting a specific thing in warframe i can usually do something to speed up my progress farming resources get a full team of loot frames and bring a kavat,getting prime gear refine my relics to radiant and get a full squad of people to do the same.Destiny has slowly added ways to get specific weapons but most of the loot is still random.

Oh i suck at pvp too and even I could sometimes go on large killstreaks thx to easy auto target supers or just pure luck but still playing comp and just getting thrashed on by the meta is not fun.

Warframes pvp is definetly bad but id argue warframe was never fit for pvp the movement is too fast plus most of the maps arent designed that well,to make pvp playable you would have to slow players down but then it wouldnt really feel like warframe.Id rather they just retire pvp and get it over with nobody really plays warframe for pvp and thats fine.

NIghtwave atleast has some little story bits and the challenges are weekly and not daily plus if i dont feel like doing them i can just stockpile the challenges and do them at a later time thanks to the catch up mechanic that was added in season 2.It also doesnt restrict my playstyle as much as the bounties from destiny.

Once in a few years is better then never the vanguard vendors have had the same loot since launch and have become pretty much useless so youre just stockpiling resources.

The big difference in the shops is Warframe is free while Destiny still charges for expansions,dlc and the season pass and besides that theyre actively ignoring other vendors just to dump more things into eververse.In warframe its also a lot easier to get cosmetics be it through the nightwave credits or just trading for platinum.I dont like games locking content away especially if i payed for it the "only cosmetics" is not an excuse i agree with cosmetics are part of the game and not being to able to get things would throwing more cash away is not something i feel like should be excused in any game with a price tag on it.

I guess looks are just personal preference but personally most of the gear in destiny you can farm kinda looks dumb i think i found like 2 sets of armor in the whole game i actually like what happend to a lot of the cool armors from Destiny 1 can we not get that id rather have cool looking recycled stuff then new boring ones.

The big issue with Railjack is they pushed it out way too early and mistook the pace of it so the missions just feel like theyre inflated but otherwise its a pretty big change of pace from the regular gameplay loop and whether you like it or not is a pretty big step foward for the game itself.Destiny just feels like its adding more types of horde modes and not really changing or evolving at all 

With Destiny i usually log in like every 6 months or so and play for like a week meanwhile i cant stay away from Warframe for more then a week.

Taking a few lessons from Destiny is fine and all Id personally like more puzzles and parkour type missions or challenges but thats about it,Also id really love if Warframe bosses could be affected by abilities i can recall Day 1 Exploiter Orb when me and a bunch of clanmates were coming up with other strats to use against it using Nova to break all the vents or Gara to block the coolant spiders:Thats my only big problem with Warframe is that too many enemies are just completely immune to abilities nowadays it takes away from the fun

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On 2020-02-09 at 5:55 AM, Gravitus123 said:

I really disagree on the ai front warframes ai is fine and the enemies do have more tactics then just rushing at you ,grineers drop blunts,use cover and usually stay at range where theyre safer,corpus do the same but they have a few extra toys like nullifiers and combas plus the flying drones also dodge the only ones that are kinda bad are the infested but thats because most of their units are melee they just need more diversity.If the ai was too smart it would be frustrating to play the best thing is too just add more units with specialized tactics.

I dont like feeling like im not getting stronger in a game based on getting loot in Destiny it just feels like im not stronger at all Warframe might be a more unbalanced but atleast i feel like the hours i put in mattered and my gear is strong.

I did do the hema grind but that was one weapon not my entire gear and if im hunting a specific thing in warframe i can usually do something to speed up my progress farming resources get a full team of loot frames and bring a kavat,getting prime gear refine my relics to radiant and get a full squad of people to do the same.Destiny has slowly added ways to get specific weapons but most of the loot is still random.

Oh i suck at pvp too and even I could sometimes go on large killstreaks thx to easy auto target supers or just pure luck but still playing comp and just getting thrashed on by the meta is not fun.

Warframes pvp is definetly bad but id argue warframe was never fit for pvp the movement is too fast plus most of the maps arent designed that well,to make pvp playable you would have to slow players down but then it wouldnt really feel like warframe.Id rather they just retire pvp and get it over with nobody really plays warframe for pvp and thats fine.

NIghtwave atleast has some little story bits and the challenges are weekly and not daily plus if i dont feel like doing them i can just stockpile the challenges and do them at a later time thanks to the catch up mechanic that was added in season 2.It also doesnt restrict my playstyle as much as the bounties from destiny.

Once in a few years is better then never the vanguard vendors have had the same loot since launch and have become pretty much useless so youre just stockpiling resources.

The big difference in the shops is Warframe is free while Destiny still charges for expansions,dlc and the season pass and besides that theyre actively ignoring other vendors just to dump more things into eververse.In warframe its also a lot easier to get cosmetics be it through the nightwave credits or just trading for platinum.I dont like games locking content away especially if i payed for it the "only cosmetics" is not an excuse i agree with cosmetics are part of the game and not being to able to get things would throwing more cash away is not something i feel like should be excused in any game with a price tag on it.

I guess looks are just personal preference but personally most of the gear in destiny you can farm kinda looks dumb i think i found like 2 sets of armor in the whole game i actually like what happend to a lot of the cool armors from Destiny 1 can we not get that id rather have cool looking recycled stuff then new boring ones.

The big issue with Railjack is they pushed it out way too early and mistook the pace of it so the missions just feel like theyre inflated but otherwise its a pretty big change of pace from the regular gameplay loop and whether you like it or not is a pretty big step foward for the game itself.Destiny just feels like its adding more types of horde modes and not really changing or evolving at all 

With Destiny i usually log in like every 6 months or so and play for like a week meanwhile i cant stay away from Warframe for more then a week.

Taking a few lessons from Destiny is fine and all Id personally like more puzzles and parkour type missions or challenges but thats about it,Also id really love if Warframe bosses could be affected by abilities i can recall Day 1 Exploiter Orb when me and a bunch of clanmates were coming up with other strats to use against it using Nova to break all the vents or Gara to block the coolant spiders:Thats my only big problem with Warframe is that too many enemies are just completely immune to abilities nowadays it takes away from the fun

I think my references to the AI have more to do with the effects of the bob and weave effects that allow you to miss on D2 enemies, because they actively try to avoid you... where as in warframe, yeah they have tools, but I promise that those tools mean literally nothing if you build right at endgame.  They are all just insta dead wet tissue paper.  If they could attempt to avoid something it would really make a huge difference in the game, but they react like molasses.  Imagine if you used peacemaker and not everything insta died and allowed you to win, or with one attack everything near you with a properly riven'd melee didn't insta die because it rolled out of the way with some agility?

I think the reason you don't feel like you are getting stronger in destiny is because the max cap of power is designed to be closer to the minimum to avoid the mistake of warframe where they are so spread apart that if you're a new player, 90% of maps are just you running behind other players stepping on loot.  I promise that when you do reach the endgame of warframe (and by that I mean having all the primed/umbral mods, all the gear/frames, max focus, arcanes, etc.), you will experience the same thing, the reason you don't notice it is because they artificially pad the hell out of the content with stuff like RNG layers and .1% drop chances and standing caps and such, and I'm not saying that's all bad, because some things, like say, a cosmetic grind are perfect for that, but for crucial components like reactors and mods and frame parts, etc. that's just busy work and it's not any different from the endless wow loop of "go collect 20 new currencies for me with a 1% drop and I'll give you a 1% towards your next ding" it's literally the same old school trash grind used by the mmos of yesteryear and not at all in line with better gaming practices implemented elsewhere since those days.

As far as railjack I do/did like it, until grinding my face off to get points, it's just soooo grindy and repetitive.  It was cool, but yeah, I don't think anyone disagrees that it was half baked trash on release, even if it was fun.

Honestly my main battle is to get the devs to shut up about squad link and actually make full on 8 man raids.  The tech is well pioneered, it's not impossible, they just have to stop jerking around and pretending like it is and produce some actual content, and if players break it with their insane builds... then you just balance it for that or let it remain as a viable strat, because like you said about the bosses, it sucks to have all your stuff you've earned over thousands of hours just "turned off".



 

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