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Rivens and how would I change them


Kashtan
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Let's be real here. Rivens are broken when it comes to balance and I'm not even gonna try to attempt to balance them because it's impossible to balance purely random mod. So instead I'm gonna talk about more tedious aspects of rivens so let's get started.

1. They're too rare.

There are only a handful of ways that you can actually get a riven and due to their random nature it's absurdly rare to even get a relatively "good" riven. There needs to be a reliable and consistent way of getting them and no putting them in sorties which only give random reward once per day is not a good solution. Neither is making arbitrary timegates by putting them in syndicate offerings. First of all do not timegate them. There's nothing more infuriating in a grindy game like warframe as artificial roadblocks put up by developers that only purpose of existence in the first place is to just impede player's progress. When you put up a timegate (Sorties daily reset mechanic, syndicate daily standing cap or just a blantant cooldown in case of turning-in riven shards) and on top of that you dillute the loot pool in said timegate while rivens are random to begin with you have a recipe for one of the least enjoyable systems in the game. And no making them more accessible won't make the game unbalanced because rivens never were balanced in the first place.

2. They're too random.

On top of the fact that you get a random riven for a random weapon you also get fully random statistics and it can even give you crippling debuffs like negative global damage. There needs to be some sort of a system to either influence the randomness in some way or a mechanic like just locking the bonuses that you like so they won't reroll when you cycle the rivens.

3. Altering them is too costly and time consuming.

Kuva is a massive pain in the butt to farm and it's also insanely boring. On top of that you get so small amounts that you may not even get to do a single re-roll after doing a kuva flood without a resource booster. Either get rid of the scaling reroll cost or bring kuva gains up by a lot. And by saying a lot I mean something like 3-5x the values we get right now because let's face it. People only use kuva for rivens and there are very few blueprints that need kuva.

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I think Rivens were one of-- if not the worst addition to the game. They have utterly destroyed the trade and indirectly shifted the average prices of everything. I think DE take away any way to get Rivens and allow all current Riven owners to keep them. Rivens are awful for the game and it's market. It's like mass producing the newest iPhone in 1950 and pricing it at the cost of a house.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

I think Rivens were one of-- if not the worst addition to the game. They have utterly destroyed the trade and indirectly shifted the average prices of everything. I think DE take away any way to get Rivens and allow all current Riven owners to keep them. Rivens are awful for the game and it's market. It's like mass producing the newest iPhone in 1950 and pricing it at the cost of a house.

Unfortunately the damage is already done and disabling riven drops would just inflate their prices immensly effectively making the economy even worse. On the other hand if they would be more accessable they would drop in prices and eventually that single person who had that very specific riven will not be able to ask absurd amounts of platinum for it.

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I don't understand the hate on rivens here. They are great. Pretty much combine multiple mods into one slot.They are also a great way to make plat. Buy a trash/unrolled riven for whatever meta weapon is cool this month and roll it. Sell for profit and do it again. Trading is pretty easy in this game. Sites like warframe.market makes it even easier. list the random junk you have and people message you in game wanting to give you plat. There is very little effort involved. 

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1 hour ago, adek183 said:

There needs to be some sort of a system to either influence the randomness in some way or a mechanic like just locking the bonuses that you like so they won't reroll when you cycle the rivens

This is probably my main complaint about rivens. Especially when you want a particular set of bonuses (not necessarily even damage related) it can literally take hundreds of thousands of Kuva just to get one Riven to have the stats that YOU want.

I don't mind that Rivens are somewhat rare-ish, and it's hard to get one for your weapon of choice. In fact sometimes getting a certain Riven made me use the weapon much more, which I think is pretty cool. However I believe that if you did get a Riven for a weapon of your choice, you should be able to craft it into whatever you want within reasonable amount of rolls.

I think being able to lock the stat during a reroll would be a very good addition, OR maybe something like being able to replace one stat from a rerolled riven into the old version of riven and vice versa.

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5 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I don't understand the hate on rivens here.

Literally no content in the game that needs that level of powercreep, stacking stats rather than consolidating mod space. And their initial purpose was to bring low-tier "useless" weapons up to competitive stats for weapon diversity. Their actual use?...Powercreep...making the top weapons stronger.

I usually trash all of my rivens, or sell them in bulk at 5-10p each to get them out of my inventory.

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1 hour ago, adek183 said:

Unfortunately the damage is already done and disabling riven drops would just inflate their prices immensly effectively making the economy even worse. On the other hand if they would be more accessable they would drop in prices and eventually that single person who had that very specific riven will not be able to ask absurd amounts of platinum for it.

Better way i keep declaring in many threads for the most direct way to just resolve the fiasco of them: Just fking make all riven mods that are NOT veiled, untradable. This creates a crazy incentive to trade veiled for the rolls and transmutations, while also boosting kuva gain to compensate for the inabiity to trade unveiled riven mods, but honestly reducing the costs would be better for the re-rolls. But also it would DELETE the fiasco memes we call the riven mafia and bot-trackers cause veiled are not that too hard to get but the demand would make them valuable for people to fork over easily 40~80 plat for them, when you used to be able to auto-sell non-shotgun rivens for 20~30 and shotgun rivens used to auto-sell for 80 for thar veiled when they first came out and a few months after.

 

57 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I don't understand the hate on rivens here. They are great. Pretty much combine multiple mods into one slot.They are also a great way to make plat. Buy a trash/unrolled riven for whatever meta weapon is cool this month and roll it. Sell for profit and do it again. Trading is pretty easy in this game. Sites like warframe.market makes it even easier. list the random junk you have and people message you in game wanting to give you plat. There is very little effort involved. 

The issue is they SUK most of the plat up in trades these days, because people wildly overprice them all of the place because people give zero fks about flooring or in this case, ceiling values. Such as figuring out what kind of value certain mods could be. Such as how yesterday i was able to sell a max rank healing return mod for 70~ plat(which yes i know via warframe.market could reach the 130~s or so but i was being generous to the wtb`er), despite it having a .01~.03% drop rate on only 2 specific enemies, yet with condition overload, people demand it for 10~20 DESPITE it also being a .01~.03% drop rate on 2 to 3 very specific grineer enemies that normally would not overlap, despite it also being a very valuable mods to builds these days.

With more platinum being burnt on riven mods, the usage of plat gets even more unstable with other items because people further lose the understanding on how to value goods, where it was normally fine to sell a syndicate mod for 10, a prime set that is NOT in the vault yet but has been out for a while for around 100 for a warframe and around 60~80 for a weapon. Plus even when tri-dolons were out for a while, arcane energize, grace, avenger were all still priced quite sizable for thar drop rates for singles yet people kept marking them down at a alarming rate.

 

This is kind of why i normally see any riven mod priced over 300 as not worth it since the dispositions can easily change and the real reason its overpriced is because of the rolls for it, meaning any riven mod WITHOUT an absurdly high combination of rolls, is honestly just people exploiting hype trains and what they could use that plat for more permanent(Like slots or the feel goods of skins, especially deluxe ones) or extremely beneficial boons, where with rivens, they might not be used all that often or for very specific types of content, which could easily be flipped to being a worth-less buy if a better strat to take down that content is found (like how arca plasmor, Lanka, Tombfinger and Vulkar Wraith stopped getting used over after Rubico[and its prime] due to shot combos and Daikyu is also a very great pick, though with a properly designed chroma and the `crit harrow` setup, riven mods became even less needed for eidolons).

25 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Literally no content in the game that needs that level of powercreep, stacking stats rather than consolidating mod space. And their initial purpose was to bring low-tier "useless" weapons up to competitive stats for weapon diversity. Their actual use?...Powercreep...making the top weapons stronger.

I usually trash all of my rivens, or sell them in bulk at 5-10p each to get them out of my inventory.

Sadly its due to crap like railjack and kuva liches which are pushing that b.s. need of riven mods. Due to things like enemies being IMMUNE to status procs and/or having the most ridiculous values of durability that is likely even MORE then going thru the entire 100% bar of a freaking stalker acolyte. Which i think are still able to be affected by status procs or had plenty more c.c. that worked on them, unlike how the Wulf of Sata Six was, which was basically a prototype lich when you think about it.

Sadly so i can farm effectively when doing kind of deep farm runs for fissures or even...urgh, kuva fissures, i have to have a riven for my opticor vandal to maximize the kill speed and my most recent addition being a ninkondi riven since the best way to freaking destroy a rank 4-5 kuva lich is to use a rhino stomp or other slow form and just Jackie Chan smack the fk outta that boi/gal with a storm of nun-chuck bashing.

Edited by Avienas
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Too rare, too random and too time consuming are all great qualities to make a system highly valuable and worthy of investment. If you want them to be cheap, they will be worthless. If you want these special mods to be great, just invest your time or Plat into it. But at the end, it won’t matter because DE will nerf whatever Rivens of specific weapons if players like them too much. 

More in the rarity: they are now extremely easy to obtain and roll. Have you ever put in any efforts in the system? 

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On 2020-02-08 at 3:20 AM, George_PPS said:

Too rare, too random and too time consuming are all great qualities to make a system highly valuable and worthy of investment. If you want them to be cheap, they will be worthless. If you want these special mods to be great, just invest your time or Plat into it. But at the end, it won’t matter because DE will nerf whatever Rivens of specific weapons if players like them too much. 

More in the rarity: they are now extremely easy to obtain and roll. Have you ever put in any efforts in the system? 

You do realize that you're basically suggesting me to pay real money to deal with the fact that rivens are so random and time consuming? You're also implying that they'll be nerfed anyway and it's not worth it.

Time consuming =/= rewarding/worthy of investment. That system is entirely luck dependant essentially like lootboxes. You have no influence if you'll even get a riven let alone a riven that you WANT.

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8 hours ago, adek183 said:

You do realize that you're basically suggesting me to pay real money to deal with the fact that rivens are so random and time consuming? You're also implying that they'll be nerfed anyway and it's not worth it.

Time consuming =/= rewarding/worthy of investment. That system is entirely luck dependant essentially like lootboxes. You have no influence if you'll even get a riven let alone a riven that you WANT.

If you don't like it, just don't use it or trade it. If your time is worth less than your perception of the value of the plat, by all means don’T spend any money, any plat or efforts in it. A big problem of the game is from those who have nots asking DE to nerf others gears /mods and what others enjoy. And then DE would placate these players to remove fun factors or whats worthy of investment. 

At the end everyone is unhappy. You are not happy about what god Rivens others have or enjoy. God rivens owners are not happy because their efforts of obtaining them can get trashed all the time. 

If you want something great, you must invest your time and efforts in the system to get what you want EVENTUALLY. If you don’t like it, just quit.

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7 hours ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

Animated GIF

 

Except you can't buy Rivens with real money from the store. 

Well said. The system is great. It elicits the darkside of player psychology. Too bad they are also nerfed all the time by DE to appease some envious players who are very loud about how they don’t have it or too expensive. 

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1 hour ago, George_PPS said:

Well said. The system is great. It elicits the darkside of player psychology. Too bad they are also nerfed all the time by DE to appease some envious players who are very loud about how they don’t have it or too expensive. 

Rivens are balanced (both nerfs and buffs) as DE said they would do when rivens were implemented, not to appease "envious players".

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2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Rivens are balanced (both nerfs and buffs) as DE said they would do when rivens were implemented, not to appease "envious players".

Too bad it still is horribly designed, considering how many people will shell out between 400 to 2000 platinum for a good to `god roll` riven mod. Despite the fact the riven disposition for that weapon will clearly get hammered down on disposition during the entire year which would likely be a 10% drop or even worst on its total stat value every few months.

But clearly D.E. does not ever use MARKET CHAT as a measuring stick to balance a system despite it being so heavily relied upon for quite a few players. Since drop rates can be quite b.s. to the point just trading for the uncommon/rare prime/variant parts of anything is a whole lot better then spending what could be more then 24 hours just to get a single part, even worst if the opp to get said item will not last for 24 hours, its a part of a prime that no one is actively grinding for or the only people who would sell you what could be a item you are unable to do said content, despite the part not being that hard to `farm` for more skilled players, Would just result in you running into people charging extremely absurd price tags for that `common item`.

 

There is a reason i have quite literally, spammed a number of rather simplistic ways on how to fix things on warframe which some would be as SIMPLE, as boosting the gain rate for things like Void Traces & Kuva due to how absurdly fast the stuff can be consumed yet takes quite a long time to accrue it, regardless if your a optimized player or a total noob, with only the ability to speed run, yet very shoddy designs on some elements will get in your way a lot often (refer to enemy corruption and reactant drop rate for fissures as an example).

...And then i just proceeded to more nuclear option suggestions like making unveiled rivens completely untradable so the value of veiled mods become greatly more appreciated and the demand for them sky rockets. On top of the fact it would also do a major spike in people farming kuva, which could translate into more Requiem relic farmings to both spam Siphons and Requiem fissures for kuva and riven slivers. Despite the fact that Kuva Fissure Relics have ayatan amber stars & weapon exilus bps, which the former should of been in arbitrations and the latter should of been merged with NORMAL exilus adapters, instead of this b.s. where d.e. wants to keep making more random things, and continue to over-saturate the stuff we have to deal with, between adding an absurd number of resources with railjack with zero concern to solar map resources, despite using them to build the thing first. To us having so many relics these days that the fact they have not polished the fissure system itself is asine on ends itself.

Edited by Avienas
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13 hours ago, George_PPS said:

If you don't like it, just don't use it or trade it. If your time is worth less than your perception of the value of the plat, by all means don’T spend any money, any plat or efforts in it. A big problem of the game is from those who have nots asking DE to nerf others gears /mods and what others enjoy. And then DE would placate these players to remove fun factors or whats worthy of investment. 

At the end everyone is unhappy. You are not happy about what god Rivens others have or enjoy. God rivens owners are not happy because their efforts of obtaining them can get trashed all the time. 

If you want something great, you must invest your time and efforts in the system to get what you want EVENTUALLY. If you don’t like it, just quit.

1. Just because You / other people enjoy a certain weapon / gear item / mod it doesn't mean it's balanced and it shouldn't be nerfed.

2. I never had (and never will) a problem that people have "godroll" rivens. Actually it's kind of sad if the person that is using said riven paid the absurd price that the seller was probably asking for.

3. I'm unhappy about how much effort you need to put in and potentially don't even get any reward. Not that you have to actually put effort into something. If rivens would just be some kind of mods with progressive power increase beside the usual ranking up system i'd be more than happy about it.

4. "If you don't like it, just quit" - me quitting won't magically solve the problem. And i'm not going to quit over something so silly i'll probably quit quicker because of content drought that is currently happening.

21 hours ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

Animated GIF

 

Except you can't buy Rivens with real money from the store. 

From store no but nothing stands in your way to go into trade chat and buying basically any riven from a player.

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1 hour ago, adek183 said:

From store no but nothing stands in your way to go into trade chat and buying basically any riven from a player.

You don't have to trade plat for a riven. I got a really good broken war riven from a guy that wanted a nikana riven. So we traded and we are both super happy. There's always someone that might trade stuff with you without asking for plat.

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On 2020-02-07 at 11:41 AM, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

I think Rivens were one of-- if not the worst addition to the game. They have utterly destroyed the trade and indirectly shifted the average prices of everything. I think DE take away any way to get Rivens and allow all current Riven owners to keep them. Rivens are awful for the game and it's market. It's like mass producing the newest iPhone in 1950 and pricing it at the cost of a house.

I don't see HOW it's ruining the market, in fact it's an opportunity for DE to make money from fans of the game buying platinum, which supports them and the game. You don't even have to buy any if you don't want to since you have the ability to MAKE platinum on your own then turn around and spend it on that God roll riven you want. It's a free market yes, but there is also the weekly prices people are actually paying for these rivens that DE puts out so no one gets ripped off either. Do you mean let them keep then ones they have without the option to trade them? Because If you took away rivens but let people keep the ones they have with the ability to trade them that would drive prices up even more because there are so few left of each weapon and everyone would be scrambling to get the rivens they want. Saying you don't like how much effort you need to put in without getting any reward is an absurd statement. The game revolves around grinding and putting time in to get the things that you want. At the end of the day and you turn off that console you still want to tell me all that time you put in the game was too much effort for no reward anyways? I don't see how If you arnt buying or selling rivens how it's affecting you and your game play. 

Edited by (PS4)MastrBeader
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I state that I am not a supporter of the riven, but I understand who uses them. The problem, in my opinion, is that, as they are today, they represent only an incentive to powercreep.

In my opinion they should be optional, but today they are falsely represented as fundamental for every end-game build.

Here is my solution:

  • The riven stops being considered a mod, and becomes an addition to the weapon, similarly to an arcane, a lens or a gravimag;
  • You can freeze one of the riven's statistics and reroll the others, but only once. This statistic will never be changed again in future reroll;
  • The reroll cost is reduced;
  • The number of riven is increased;
  • From the moment the riven is inserted into the weapon, or it is rerolled, or traded, the riven is considered activated. Each week it will lose a fraction of his power equal to 1/12 of disposition (until it reach disposition 1). Consequently, the disposition values that the DE modifies every quarter, will only concern the new rivens;

In this way it is established as a rule that the riven are intended to reduce their power, but the system is made more flexible.

CONS.

  • No powercreep, 6-digit red critics no longer possible except for short periods (honestly, not a cons for me)

PRO:

  • The Riven become truly optional. They will be an addition to the build, and not a fundamental element;
  • The price on the market will be lower and availability higher;
  • End with the hoarding of riven by few players (through the use of secondary accounts) we have seen enough mafia with the Rubico;
Edited by (PS4)Tekikko
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Il y a 5 heures, (PS4)Tekikko a dit :

 The riven stops being considered a mod

You can freeze one of the riven's statistics, The reroll cost is reduced, The number of riven is increased

---

No powercreep

You can easily have a very good riven, and use it without remove a mod, and it is "no powercreep" ?

 

Il y a 5 heures, (PS4)Tekikko a dit :

Each week it will lose a fraction of his power equal to 1/12 of disposition (until it reach disposition 1). 

May-be the worst idea of mechanic that i ever seen.

"Consequently, the disposition values that the DE modifies every quarter, will only concern the new rivens" 

There is good reason to change the disposition (but it also have some bad effect, yes).

But if there is more negative points than positive points, the solution is to definitely fixe the disposition, not introduce a crappy mechanic.  

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  • 1.   Negative stats, most specifically: Neg damage, multishot, Crit chance and crit damage. The chances of getting 3 positives in your roll with any of those 4 negatives completely nullifies the entire use of the riven. From no angle can it be concluded that any weapon benefits from Neg damage, multishot,etc. In reference to Vile Acceleration/ Anemic Agility the only mods with neg damage but only a 15% decrease never 100%+ like in a riven. There is no “balance” in those neg stats because it nullifies any positive stat you get. There is no reason for it to be in the database and this issue has been overlooked since Rivens Release. Please this is an urgent issue because your company knows the riven market and it’s out of your jurisdiction but the rolling experience itself is unbearably frustrating knowing those 4 specific neg stats can magically appear. I won’t discuss the other neg stats as of now, they are fine.
  •    Secondly, Riven Capacity, beside it being ridiculously steep of 60 plat for 3x slots. The same price each for one as an entire warframe slot. Why isn’t +1 riven capacity added with mastery rank? If a mastery rank gate was added why not see it through all the way? The 3x Forma Bundle costs 35 platinum if I remember correctly and that same forma is required to fit that new riven mod into a weapon. The Riven slot bundle should/can be at least 45 platinum or close to a forma bundle. It shouldn’t reach to riot levels where the community says they are feeling cheated to forcibly buy a slot bundle/ dissolve or sell their wanted rivens. If +1 mod capacity and +1 load-out capacity is given upon mastery rank, there should be no issue adding +1 riven capacity to help with the ever growing demand. Considering riven mods are a common drop reward from sorties. 
  •    Lastly, Kuva abundance, DE did a great job with adding kuva survival but the yields are so deplorable it’s not even funny. Without a resource booster, the player’s time invested is nowhere equal per kuva reward to roll a riven mod of 3.5k each after 10 rolls. Yielding only 200 kuva per capsule is bad resource economy and again forces players farming kuva to use boosters just to get a decent amount of kuva efficiently. Game modes like Arbitration or Nightwave almost feel less tedious to earn the 10k kuva from their store because the farm is more fun/beneficial. The community has been begging for this but not barking loud enough for it(enough) please increase kuva survival yields to 500 PER capsule or decrease the fixed 3.5k to 2.5k kuva or adding scaling rewards to kuva survival where the yields increase by 100 every 10/15 minutes so players have reason to stay longer in mission. The community has been too distracted with the current bugs with railjack and Kuva liches because they found something new to be upset about. If the Kuva Lich system can receive optimal quality of life changes upon such recent release. The Riven stats, Capacity and Kuva existing for far longer can be rectified and improved. Thank you and keep making this game awesome.
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On 2020-02-16 at 2:52 AM, (PS4)MastrBeader said:

I don't see HOW it's ruining the market, in fact it's an opportunity for DE to make money from fans of the game buying platinum, which supports them and the game. You don't even have to buy any if you don't want to since you have the ability to MAKE platinum on your own then turn around and spend it on that God roll riven you want. It's a free market yes, but there is also the weekly prices people are actually paying for these rivens that DE puts out so no one gets ripped off either. Do you mean let them keep then ones they have without the option to trade them? Because If you took away rivens but let people keep the ones they have with the ability to trade them that would drive prices up even more because there are so few left of each weapon and everyone would be scrambling to get the rivens they want. Saying you don't like how much effort you need to put in without getting any reward is an absurd statement. The game revolves around grinding and putting time in to get the things that you want. At the end of the day and you turn off that console you still want to tell me all that time you put in the game was too much effort for no reward anyways? I don't see how If you arnt buying or selling rivens how it's affecting you and your game play. 

Don't even know who you were addressing in that second half of the response because I said nothing like that.

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I'd pull out all the numbers and replace them with actual fun powers that can be re-rolled..

as example...

See through walls

On head shot go invisible for 5 seconds.

Silenced 

Collect ammo/health/energy that is shot by weapon

Additional Magnetic proc protection.

run on water.

proc sleep effect...ect ect.

 

so on and so on so the player can actually have fun rather than being casino addict in front of slot machine...

 

 

Edited by (PS4)FriendSharkey
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