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Heliocor feedback


UghZug
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Hey Simaris, this thing is really expensive to purchase and build compared to other melee weapons out there but it has a lot of downsides that are counter to your promise of an efficiency gain.

1. Scans... I have your scanner on my bar and it is supposedly using this hammer to capture scans for you. However you are not giving out standings gains, how is that efficient?  I still need to manually scan stuff for you, why bother using this? Even if I'm collecting kavat DNA I still need to spot them with the scanner first. General scans? Who needs that when Helios does a great job already.

2.  The scanner appears to fail scanning some targets killed by AoE attacks from either styles or slams in large groups.  This is really frustrating because you can't always tell if a kavat was successfully scanned or not.

3.  The weapon's swinging sound effect is very grating on the ears.

Some suggestions:

Offer upgrade widgets for your weapon selections: pinging for interactive targets similar to what one would see when a scanner pings etc without the zoom, kavat stealth dye making them easy to spot while cloaked, combat bonuses for scans etc.

If you really wanted to offer something that improved my efficiency as you claimed then a successful scan with this device should provide standings.  It's not as if we don't have enough factions to grind standing for on our plate already.

DNA samples should be a lot easier to gather using this device as it has contact with the flesh and blood of its target rather than scanning from a distance.   Upgrade its ability to reliably gather kavat DNA samples.

Allow for melee attacks to scan on scannable map assets like plants.

Change the sound.

Edited by UghZug
ENGRISH
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7 minutes ago, UghZug said:

1. Scans... I have your scanner on my bar and it is supposedly using this hammer to capture scans for you. However you are not giving out standings gains, how is that efficient?  I still need to manually scan stuff for you, why bother using this? Even if I'm collecting kavat DNA I still need to spot them with the scanner first. General scans? Who needs that when Helios does a great job already.

Kudos to this. Hella greedy on DE's Simaris' part to make a weapon that is supposed to encourage scans just to make it subpar and not actually count any of the point currency inherent to that system.

9 minutes ago, UghZug said:

2.  The scanner appears to fail scanning some targets killed by AoE attacks from either styles or slams in large groups.  This is really frustrating because you can't always tell if a kavat was successfully scanned or not.

Agreed. Seems a bit lazy to have direct impact trigger a scan, but other types of kill damage on the same kill end up not triggering it. At least if this does hold true, since I don't really use Heliocor due to the reasons above.

11 minutes ago, UghZug said:

DNA samples should be a lot easier to gather using this device as it has contact with the flesh and blood of its target rather than scanning from a distance.   Upgrade its ability to reliably gather kavat DNA samples.

Allow for melee attacks to scan on scannable map assets like plants.

I overall agree with the suggestions, as they would improve Heliocor and the scan system. But these 2 stand out, and I really like them. There are way too many little things in this game that are overly grindy due to oversight, lack of foresight and/or plain greed, or "just because". And in these "little" cases they tend to be left as is for years since they're easier so swipe under the rug and ignore than a game breaking bug.

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51 minutes ago, UghZug said:

If you really wanted to offer something that improved my efficiency as you claimed then a successful scan with this device should provide standings.  It's not as if we don't have enough factions to grind standing for on our plate already.

if this becomes true, it will be Secura Lecta all over again (when it could be used to gain 200k credits per mission before Index's arrival)
tell me the reason to ignore that hammer if i can just swing around in one survival's mission and fill simaris standing everyday, generating an huge income in Energy Conversion, Health Conversion, Sentinel rivens... to the game
plus the fact that Synoid Heliocor brings similar effect with specter creation throught heavy attack, so... forced Suda's standing generation for that syndicate too? (which means screw New Loka and Perrin Sequence followers)

Edited by Zeyez
like this topic, everything in the world can be changed, it just needs the right words... and the left ones too
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7 minutes ago, Zeyez said:

if this becomes true, it will be Secura Lecta all over again (when it could be used to gain 200k credits per mission before Index's arrival)
tell me the reason to ignore that hammer if i can just swing around in one survival's mission and fill simaris standing everyday, generating an huge income in Energy Conversion, Health Conversion, Sentinel's rivens... to the game
plus the fact that Synoid Heliocor brings similar effect with specter creation throught heavy attack, so... forced Suda's standing generation for that syndicate too? (which means screw New Loka and Perrin Sequence followers)

There is a cap for standings gain per day, something which I might add is very easily capped by scanning unaware targets in a mission.  I don't see this as being overpowered.  Standings gains are not endless.

 

edit 2, we are talking about the Heliocor from Simaris, not another item.

Edited by UghZug
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44 minutes ago, UghZug said:

There is a cap for standings gain per day, something which I might add is very easily capped by scanning unaware targets in a mission.  I don't see this as being overpowered.  Standings gains are not endless.

 

edit 2, we are talking about the Heliocor from Simaris, not another item.

its not endless, but by using your suggestion, its become trivial simply by equipping one single weapon [as mr 28, my daily cap is 29k, which is quite huge to be capped in just one stealth mission]
plus the fact that, if you ignore translating in changes to the Synoid variant, it will be tagged as worthless, since both should be comparable, just like any weapon that has 2 variants that has some sort of sidegrade feeling (so ignore any mk1 series), like Telos Boltor (higher critical chance, Truth effect) and Boltor Prime (higher base damage, higher status), Gorgon Wraith and Prisma Gorgon, Tigris Prime (easier possibility for 100% status chance) and Sancti Tigris (faster reload, Purity effect), Vaykor Hek (more balanced to use) and augmented Hek (brute force with +200% multishot at cost of 1 mod slot)... and so on

 

in the end, you can't just shrug off that variant because you want since its sidegrade version of the weapon that you want to buff
buff both in different ways or you need to apply the same effect for both, but like i stated before, none of the suggestions shouldn't simply be restricting any weapon usage because of an detrimental effect not related to the combat itself

Edited by Zeyez
doing the same actions, over and over again, expecting the results to change... damn RNG, i'm insane
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1 hour ago, Zeyez said:

if this becomes true, it will be Secura Lecta all over again (when it could be used to gain 200k credits per mission before Index's arrival)
tell me the reason to ignore that hammer if i can just swing around in one survival's mission and fill simaris standing everyday, generating an huge income in Energy Conversion, Health Conversion, Sentinel rivens... to the game

you're still limited by a daily limit either way, and it still won't be faster than Stealth Scanning anyways.
so for it to compete with normal Stealth Scanning you'd have to do Finishers on every Enemy you see.

13 minutes ago, Zeyez said:

plus the fact that, if you ignore translating in changes to the Synoid variant, it will be tagged as worthless, since both should be comparable, just like any weapon that has 2 variants

Synoid Heliocor is already objectively inferior to the normal version of it anyways, the problem is already there.

Edited by taiiat
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2 hours ago, taiiat said:

Synoid Heliocor is already objectively inferior to the normal version of it anyways, the problem is already there.

only crit-wise (38% to 16%)
but in every other stat [status chance (12 to 40%), base attack speed (0.83 to 1.08), range (2.5 to 2.6), specter on heavy attack kill, starting combo count (0 to 20)], Synoid is better, which makes it better suited for heavy attack build and even Condition Overload combo, unlike normal version, mostly suited for long sessions with normal attacks, running on Blood Rush/Gladiator set

even if you build normal one for heavy attack or Condition Overload, it would need to sacrifice too much just to make it usable, the same is applied for Synoid in normal's one field
so, what's the problem? "critical chance is king" mentality? because it could be an discussion about what the hell DE did with critical chance in meele 3.0

 

and well... i don't need 220 combo count + Blood Rush to kill an single kavat in derelicts, Synoid is an better option there for its swing speed, has enough base damage for that level scale or even its heavy slam attack, which starts at 20 combo count, but not against the idea of extracting kavat DNA throught the hammer, since it should simulate the effects of manual scan (without the 2x chance from Simaris scanner) anyway

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5 hours ago, Zeyez said:

only crit-wise (38% to 16%)
but in every other stat [status chance (12 to 40%), base attack speed (0.83 to 1.08), range (2.5 to 2.6), specter on heavy attack kill, starting combo count (0 to 20)], Synoid is better, which makes it better suited for heavy attack build and even Condition Overload combo, unlike normal version, mostly suited for long sessions with normal attacks, running on Blood Rush/Gladiator set

even if you build normal one for heavy attack or Condition Overload, it would need to sacrifice too much just to make it usable, the same is applied for Synoid in normal's one field
so, what's the problem? "critical chance is king" mentality? because it could be an discussion about what the hell DE did with critical chance in meele 3.0

how is in any way the variant with lower Crits and higher Status better suited for spamming Heavies? that's literally the opposite of the Stats that pair well for spamming Heavies.

normal Heliocor has enough status for Condition Overload. increasing Status is a lot easier than increasing Crits. both Crits and Status are important Stats, but since increasing Status is a lot easier than increasing Crits, Crit Chance is much preferred over Status Chance if you have to lean towards one rather than the other.

the Specters from Synoid Heliocor are useless and irrelevant.

 

Synoid Heliocor is absolutely not better for the task of Scanning cats - if Damage doesn't matter, than neither does Attack Speed because then you can Mod into huge amounts of Attack Speed if increasing your Damage is not important.

and at the end of the day, with not being able to use any upgrade widgets that the Synthesis Scanner has, it struggles to be useful for the task it is trying to be useful for, since you'll get significantly more out of Scanning something yourself. Heliocor only being able to offer itself as an 'easy/lazy but slow' way to Scan things.
where for cat DNA it's even just mostly undesirable because you absolutely want to get that Chance for double Scan when we're talking about something with such a low Chance.
i wish Heliocor would let you do a full Scan twice to something, then it would be really compelling and useful for Scanning.

Edited by taiiat
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2020-02-08 at 6:24 PM, taiiat said:

how is in any way the variant with lower Crits and higher Status better suited for spamming Heavies? that's literally the opposite of the Stats that pair well for spamming Heavies.

normal Heliocor has enough status for Condition Overload. increasing Status is a lot easier than increasing Crits. both Crits and Status are important Stats, but since increasing Status is a lot easier than increasing Crits, Crit Chance is much preferred over Status Chance if you have to lean towards one rather than the other.

the Specters from Synoid Heliocor are useless and irrelevant.

 

Synoid Heliocor is absolutely not better for the task of Scanning cats - if Damage doesn't matter, than neither does Attack Speed because then you can Mod into huge amounts of Attack Speed if increasing your Damage is not important.

and at the end of the day, with not being able to use any upgrade widgets that the Synthesis Scanner has, it struggles to be useful for the task it is trying to be useful for, since you'll get significantly more out of Scanning something yourself. Heliocor only being able to offer itself as an 'easy/lazy but slow' way to Scan things.
where for cat DNA it's even just mostly undesirable because you absolutely want to get that Chance for double Scan when we're talking about something with such a low Chance.
i wish Heliocor would let you do a full Scan twice to something, then it would be really compelling and useful for Scanning.

so, following your lead, you just prove the point that Synoid variant needs even more buffs, battle-wise, than the normal variant itself, justified by "critical chance is the king" mentality and the existence of Weeping Wounds mod, which can turn this topic in 3 paths:

  • Heliocor and Synoid Heliocor need those changes mentioned on this topic
    which will make Synoid variant breaking game's logic by granting Simaris standing, besides the weapon being heavy modified by Suda, or being wildly troublesome to be used by New Loka/Perrin followers because of the negative standing generation
  • Synoid Heliocor needs more than its suggested for normal variant on its battle stats
    since the only competition against critical chance is critical chance (16% to 27%?) or really massive additional boost in every other stat (+1 range, +0.5 aspd, +100% base damage, unlimited duration on specter...), since the actual boost isn't enough and that version needs to be an sidegrade version of the Heliocor that should win against it in some fields
  • Meele weapons are broken because of the damage scaling throught critical chance + critical damage combo and the sole existence of Weeping Wounds, which ignores any lack of status chance if the weapon has 10% or above
    with that, all weapons and/or mods of that category needs an overall tweak once again, including Heliocor series

in any of those cases, Heliocor can't be solely be upgraded on developer's whim or most of the players will feel that they are being too imprudent
my observations here are just to attempt to avoid those cases, just like when someone start to ask for Augment slots or unnecessary warframe buffs

(yeah yeah, almost 2 weeks later since i was quite busy)

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1 hour ago, Zeyez said:

so, following your lead, you just prove the point that Synoid variant needs even more buffs, battle-wise, than the normal variant itself, justified by "critical chance is the king" mentality and the existence of Weeping Wounds mod

probably, a good start would be making the Specter Ghost... thing actually relevant at all, since that's the most unique feature of the Weapon.

 

i'd welcome Attack Speed and Range, those compete against just Damage pretty well since they can't be strictly quantified.
could do weird stuff too like making the impacts have an amount of AoE.

Edited by taiiat
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  • 1 month later...

For toise who don't know this, the (Synoid) Heliocor scan is bugged. It doesn't scan enemies when killing them (as it's supposed to do).

BUT: not only it doesn't scan killed enemies (not the Kavats anyway), it also invalidates scan using the Synthesis scanner! (when equipped)

 

In Derelict Exterminate mission, I normally find 4-6 Kavats (they usually go in pairs). Today I got this:

- Using Synoid Heliocor to kill all enemies (including 4-6 Kavats): no Kavat genetic codes

- Using Synthesis scanner to scan 4-6 Kavats (and S. Heliocor still equipped): no codes

- Using Synthesis scanner to scan 4-6 Kavats (no Heliocor equipped): 2 codes

So Heliocor is not only useless for scanning (because bugged), it ruins other forms of scan too!

 

Since this bug was already present in 2018, I wonder why DE is still ignoring it.

Edited by Pulsar63
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