One-shot self-damage has no place in a game with this many jacks-in-the-box

[SordidDreams]

This has been a problem for a very long time, but explosive weapons either haven't been worth using anyway or had some kind of safety mechanism (Lenz, Acceltra). But with the release of the Kuva weapons, while I do appreciate the thematically appropriate design ("it doesn't matter if it kills the user, we have more in the cloning tubes"), it's become evident something needs to be done.

Door closed in your face? Dead. Teammate ran in front of you? Dead. Flameblade teleported to you? Dead. Arctic eximus activated its bubble in front of you? Dead. Orokin Pillar of Annoyance rose out of the floor in front of you? Dead. There are probably others I'm forgetting. The number of things that can suddenly appear in front of you and kill you with your own explosive weapon is too damn high.

The solution is simple and obvious: Cap self-damage to a percentage of the frame's health, on a weapon-by-weapon basis (less on bullet hoses like Acceltra, more on slow-firing hard-hitters like Bramma).

 

Edit: Thanks everyone for your input and discussion. It was a lot of fun and I learned a thing or two. See ya around, tenno...

Edited March 1, 2020 by SordidDreams

[TheGrimCorsair]

This is really a you problem, not a game problem.

I regularly use the Kuva Ogris and Zarr (and have the latter since it came out) and do not have any issues with self-termination whatsoever.

The solution is for you to have a bit of self-awareness and recognize that you aren't skilled enough to use those weapons and should stick to more user-friendly weapons.

[Voltage]

I would much rather DE removed self damage altogether. It is absolutely pathetic that Ember does not kill herself with a meteor shower and other Warframes with AoE skills, but a minority of AoE weapons will kill her instantly. Shedu, Sonicor, Catchmoon, Tombfinger and more exist, but god forbid Penta or Tonkor kills a group of enemies without self damage. Limited ammunition and low fire rate should accommodate for balance in a game where you can use a plethora of AoE options to wipe crowds. Literally any melee weapon with Primed Reach will achieve a comparable radius to an explosive weapon.

Band aid mods like Cautious Shot should not exist either.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Voltage

[Voltage]

10 minutes ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

This is really a you problem, not a game problem.

I regularly use the Kuva Ogris and Zarr (and have the latter since it came out) and do not have any issues with self-termination whatsoever.

The solution is for you to have a bit of self-awareness and recognize that you aren't skilled enough to use those weapons and should stick to more user-friendly weapons.

How is it the user's problem that there are AoE abilities/weapons where only a percentage have this horrendous mechanic? All this mechanic does is turn off most players as something like the Catchmoon is stronger for obvious reasons. Tonkor and Catchmoon were nerfed for the exact same reason 2+ years apart. It's no mystery why these weapons become popular, and DE keeps repeating the same mistake over and over. This mechanic is a poor solution to a problem DE continuously fails to actually address.

The problem is not unskilled players. I have great accuracy with my weapons, but I don't use AoE weapons unless they don't have self damage. Weapons with self damage have no benefit over AoE weapons without it. I can kill a large group of enemies with the same or more damage without that useless mechanic.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Voltage

[SordidDreams]

On 2020-02-08 at 9:09 PM, TheGrimCorsair said:

This is really a you problem, not a game problem.

I literally just explained how it's not.

On 2020-02-08 at 9:09 PM, TheGrimCorsair said:

I regularly use the Kuva Ogris and Zarr (and have the latter since it came out) and do not have any issues with self-termination whatsoever.

That is what's commonly known as a lie.

On 2020-02-08 at 9:11 PM, Voltage said:

I would much rather DE removed self damage altogether.

Eh, I do kinda like the high risk, high reward gameplay of explosive weapons, but the risk has to be based on the player's skill. A flameblade teleporting into the path of my shot a milisecond after I release it has nothing to do with that, it's just a random unavoidable death the game decides to dish out.

On 2020-02-08 at 9:11 PM, Voltage said:

Band aid mods like Cautious Shot should not exist either.

That I agree with 100%. They wouldn't need to if my suggestion was implemented. Same goes for ability augment mods. If you find out an ability is badly designed and needs a change, just make the damn change FFS, don't add it as a mod.

[kwlingo]

I agree remove self damage on weapons. I mean look at all the self-damage weapons usage %, lowest of all weapon use. The new Kuva is nice because is a meme right now but Im pretty sure it will be like the rest of they within a few months. Only use for sorties for "Bow's only" missions.

Im just glad this game doesn't do team self damage because we would always see host migration like the old Radiation sortie mission.

[kwlingo]

10 minutes ago, Voltage said:

 

Band aid mods like Cautious Shot should not exist either.

Exactly waisted mod if DE just took this out of the game. lol DE tried to balance a flaw with a flaw. lol

[Drachnyn]

Meanwhile bombards and napalms will happily shoot their own feet and feel nothing from it. Self damage needs to go away.

[Vespilan]

Many players seem to have problems with this and if they have to introduce a bandaid, atleast make it a good one. Cautious Shot does not fix the issue either because even the reduced damage is most of the time still enough to oneshot yourself. And even if it had 100% reduction I would probably not use it. -15% to damage after mods is nasty. 
Someone once suggested to change Cautious Shot so that it has a damage cap to self damage instead of damage reduction up to a maximum of 200 self damage. 

[(XBOX)Shodian]

Remember rule #96...

Aim!

[Oreades]

On 2020-02-08 at 9:33 PM, Vespilan said:

Many players seem to have problems with this and if they have to introduce a bandaid, atleast make it a good one. Cautious Shot does not fix the issue either because even the reduced damage is most of the time still enough to oneshot yourself. And even if it had 100% reduction I would probably not use it. -15% to damage after mods is nasty. 
Someone once suggested to change Cautious Shot so that it has a damage cap to self damage instead of damage reduction up to a maximum of 200 self damage. 

Yeah I don't get the point of that mod at all. It is absoloutly useless at doing anything other than sucking down a mod slot for no reason. DE could honestly make it 99.99% self damage reduction and it would still do nothing because that last .01% is still enough to one shot the bulk of Warframes, in short anything short of a 100% reduction is a total waste of a mod slot and whatever arbitration MacGuffins you used to buy it. 

[(XBOX)Vaktalor]

4 minutes ago, Oreades said:

DE could honestly make it 99.99% self damage reduction and it would still do nothing because that last .01% is still enough to one shot the bulk of Warframes, in short anything short of a 100% reduction is a total waste of a mod slot.

Exactly, especially the kuva bramma with lots of damage it's still enough to kill most warframes in one shot

Edited February 8, 2020 by (XB1)Vaktalor

[AEP8FlyBoy]

If they just made self damage across the board for weapons that have it deal a flat percentage of damage to the user (say between 30-50% of your current EHP), you wouldn't have a need for bandaid mods, and you wouldn't have to worry about one-shotting yourself. Thus leading you to be a bit more careful instead of the game slapping you in the face for stuff that's sometimes out of your control.

That way it wouldn't one-shot weaker frames like Loki or Ivara, and it wouldn't one-shot tanks like Inaros, Hildryn or Nidus. _{even tho hildryn would be fine anyway cuz shield gating}

EZ.

Edited February 8, 2020 by AEP8FlyBoy

[Drasiel]

The only thing I personally wish would change is that self damage projectiles should not have clipping on other players. I view all other deaths as user error but you absolutely cannot control other players and their inclination to dive directly in front of you. Flame blades, pop up defenses, enemies around a blind corner? That's my fault for not having situarional awareness. Other players popping up like wack a moles in front of you? There's nothing a player can do about that. 

[(XBOX)Vaktalor]

11 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

The solution is simple and obvious: Cap self-damage to a percentage of the frame's health, on a weapon-by-weapon basis (less on bullet hoses like Acceltra, more on slow-firing hard-hitters like Bramma).

It would be great if explosive weapons would not one shot you I do like the self-damage cap and I do support it. If they don't deal much damage to you regardless It would be a great change. However I still feel that even with this change self damage can still unintentionally kill players depending on your situation and can be frustrating when it happens. Self-damage should be removed entirely; especially given the facts that you can only revive 4 times by default and up to 6 times if you have 2 max rank arcanes that have that feature. You can easily burn through all of your revives using explosive weapons weather you like it or not. Skill doesn't matter and accidents can and will happen.

Edited February 9, 2020 by (XB1)Vaktalor

[SordidDreams]

Just now, Drasiel said:

Other players popping up like wack a moles in front of you? There's nothing a player can do about that.

Especially since you often stop to shoot in order to not run into your own explosion, and the players behind you do not stop.

[kwlingo]

Imagine if flying limbs and particles did self damage, we would be dying all the time. lol

[Clats01]

41 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Door closed in your face? Dead. Teammate ran in front of you? Dead. Flameblade teleported to you? Dead. Arctic eximus activated its bubble in front of you? Dead. Orokin Pillar of Annoyance rose out of the floor in front of you? Dead. There are probably others I'm forgetting. The number of things that can suddenly appear in front of you and kill you with your own explosive weapon is too damn high.

 

Doors, thats a personal issue, that if you have played long enough you will know the range they open and close at, not to mention why are you shooting though a doorway with an explosive weapon to begin with anyone smart will tell you that is a dumb idea to begin with unless you are the one controlling the door opening.

team mate, the game is in third person, how do you not have the situational awareness or peripheral vision to see them in the first place.

Flameblade, sure though again situational awareness you can see them in the room, Its not like they teleport from 4 rooms away.

Arctic eximus bubble, why are you that close to begin with and why was it not dead already? sounds like another personal issue.

Orokin pillar, see doors. They have a sensor range and if you play even a small amount of time in the void you know where they rise from.

nothing suddenly appears in front of you unless you have the situational awareness of a rock, outside of the flameblades everything you listed sounds like a personal issue that you are too oblivious to learn from and deal with.

 

[Oreades]

2 minutes ago, Clats01 said:

Arctic eximus bubble, why are you that close to begin with and why was it not dead already? sounds like another personal issue

Speaking as someone who once had a Nekros summon an arctic Eximus who popped their bubble directly infront of me when I was firing off my Zarr...... it isn't always as cut and dry as not paying attention to an existing eximus. 

[Clats01]

1 minute ago, Oreades said:

Speaking as someone who once had a Nekros summon an arctic Eximus who popped their bubble directly infront of me when I was firing off my Zarr...... it isn't always as cut and dry as not paying attention to an existing eximus. 

true, but OP never stated it was a nekros summoned one, and again the animation on nekros is long enough where you can avoid them

[(XBOX)Vaktalor]

11 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

I view all other deaths as user error but you absolutely cannot control other players and their inclination to dive directly in front of you. Flame blades, pop up defenses, enemies around a blind corner? That's my fault for not having situational awareness.

Some of these things lots of players wouldn't have time to react to. Maybe I can get pop-up defenses but the enemies you won't have time to react or if you do have time it's so small that you would have to have extraordinarily good reaction time to react to it and some situational awareness. I wouldn't hold it against the user as it's not really their fault in insight in most cases.

[SordidDreams]

16 minutes ago, Clats01 said:

if you have played long enough you will know the range they open and close at

That doesn't help at all if an enemy is keeping the door open and a teammate behind you shoots that enemy, causing the door to close in your face.

16 minutes ago, Clats01 said:

shooting though a doorway with an explosive weapon to begin with anyone smart will tell you that is a dumb idea to begin with unless you are the one controlling the door opening

If you play the game for any length of time, you know that if you are close enough to the door to open it, you are close enough for your shot to kill you upon hitting the enemy standing right behind the door.

16 minutes ago, Clats01 said:

situational awareness you can see them in the room

No, you can't. Not if you play any kind of high-level missions, especially not with a team. Enemies die and are replaced so quickly that it's impossible to keep track of whether there is or isn't a particular enemy type present at the moment (commanders have the same problem, incidentally). That's to say nothing about the amount of sh*t on the screen when playing with a team. Even with reduced effects intensity I often find myself unable to actually see enemies and blindly shooting in their vague direction based on the minimap blips.

16 minutes ago, Clats01 said:

why are you that close to begin

Because the eximus is in a small room or around a corner in a corridor or in some other of a large number of situations that require me to get close. Again, if you've played the game for more than five minutes, you know the answer to this one.

16 minutes ago, Clats01 said:

everything you listed sounds like a personal issue that you are too oblivious to learn from and deal with

I'd take that a bit more seriously if it came from someone who actually uses self-damage weapons, but your most used explosive weapon is the Ogris (1.6%) and the next most used the Penta (0.5%, one of the safest explosive weapons due to its manual detonation). So maybe try using these weapons a bit first before lecturing people about how much they suck with them?

Edited February 8, 2020 by SordidDreams

[sam686]

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

Teammate ran in front of you? Dead.

The teammate and ally somehow survives point blank short range damage of Ogris or some other weapons, yet this still does self damage?

If the friendly fire always off in missions so cannot damage allies, why should self damage work?

 

The self damage operator amp was sometimes useful. Getting stuck inside Lua speed puzzle room in solo mode. While warframe is outside the puzzle room and operator is stuck inside, requires to self damage down to 2 health, to return to Warframe and get unstuck.
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1123423-lock-up-inside-speed-drift-challenge-room/

Maybe a "self damage" on or off option might help.

[OmegaVoid]

15 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

That doesn't help at all if an enemy is keeping the door open and a teammate behind you shoots that enemy, causing the door to close in your face.

Since you know this can happen, it surely can't be a problem to allow for the possibility?

15 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Because the eximus is in a small room or around a corner in a corridor or in some other of a large number of situations that require me to get close.

For close-quarters combat you have a melee weapon, though.

15 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Even with reduced effects intensity I often find myself unable to actually see enemies and blindly shooting in their vague direction based on the minimap blips.

Maybe switch to your other firearm in such situations? (Unless you're backing up an Ogris with a Kulstar or something 😆)

Edited February 8, 2020 by OmegaVoid
kan nott spel.

[OmegaVoid]

5 minutes ago, sam686 said:

Maybe a "self damage" on or off option might help.

Such an option exists: use a weapon without self-damage if you don't liek self-damage.

Players are already quite spoiled for choice of safe (and effective!) AoE weapons, after all.

Why some ppl want to take choice away from those who liek to live dangerously? 😕