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Titania_Umbra

Weapon design

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I like how weapons in Warframe are designed and balanced. In destiny 2, you can use lord of wolves to gain free kills in close range. Here in Warframe, you can give you free kills in any distance! Just use this new kuva weapon and you can kill other players, sounds good right?

Please stop saying things like "conclave is dead", this gamemode exists and I do not think because of few play it can be the reason of not fixing it.

I remember both two-handed nikana came with very "PVE" damage in conclave, and tatsu released in march 2019. I am very interested in the reasons why this mistake has been made multiple times.

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27 minutes ago, Titania_Umbra said:

I remember both two-handed nikana came with very "PVE" damage in conclave, and tatsu released in march 2019. I am very interested in the reasons why this mistake has been made multiple times.

Repeating old mistakes seems to be DE's jam lately. They learned half a decade ago that abilities shouldn't be mods and that a stamina bar has no place in Warframe, and look at Railjack now.

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26 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Repeating old mistakes seems to be DE's jam lately. They learned half a decade ago that abilities shouldn't be mods and that a stamina bar has no place in Warframe, and look at Railjack now.

They also learned that RNG stats for mods was a bad idea, and yet they still brought that back with Railjack.

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31 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Repeating old mistakes seems to be DE's jam lately. They learned half a decade ago that abilities shouldn't be mods and that a stamina bar has no place in Warframe, and look at Railjack now.

Eh, the Abilities as mods thing was a problem because they took up the same slots as regular mods. Railjack's don't. Yes, they take up overall capacity, but not only is that upgradable, it's a lot more flexible. Opportunity cost isn't always a bad design decision, as long as it's not too frustrating. I don't mind how the 'jack itself plays at all. It's a lot bigger than an Archwing or Warframe, of course it's not quite as nimble.

 

No, in my opinion, the mistake they didn't learn from with Empyrean is that they didn't balance their goddamn enemies. It's the exact same thing as Fortuna all over again. 'Oh but you don't fight as many at once' No, DE, you absolutely do.

Yp0wM5b.jpg

This is about the same number of enemies you'd encounter in a regular tile for a non-endless mission, about 12 with another hurrying in. Honestly, it's more than in some tiles. It should also be noted that, playing Limbo as aggressively as I do, I have quick thinking and life strike installed. I don't need that much, I can take a hit or two in level 100 content, as long as I can heal it off I'm fine - it's not like I get hit that often, even without spamming stasis+cataclysm, just rift-walking protects me fine. Except here. This is Veil Proxima. Every single one of these twelve-ish enemies can oneshot me (or equivalent for continuous damage). Since most of them use hitscan weapons, I have absolutely no real means to dodge, since my ability to evade is based ultimately on luck. Of course, all these enemies have more EHP as well, with the only reason I can do any is because I have a meta crit/slash heavy attack melee and one of the highest-damage crit-bleed primaries in the game.

Guess how I solved this. Stasis+cataclysm spam. Press 4 to win gameplay. Exactly the kind of gameplay DE has said they don't want Warframe to be. But because they haven't touched how damage works for almost as long as the game has been alive, despite the system showing obvious seams for half that time from what I can tell, it becomes not just the most efficient cheese way to play, it's becoming the ONLY way to play.

 

DE, for the love of god, balance your game. Properly. It is actively hindering your ability to make content of any kind now, not just 'end game' content.

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30 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I don't mind how the 'jack itself plays at all. It's a lot bigger than an Archwing or Warframe, of course it's not quite as nimble.

That's not really a repeated mistake, but I do still hate it. I play WF for fast-paced, fluid combat. Piloting a lumbering behemoth, sitting in a gun turret, or running around putting out fires and crafting more fire extinguisher fuel ain't it. None of the crew roles in RJ offers the things that make the rest of WF appealing.

I do agree with the rest of what you said, a damage rework is sorely needed and has been for years. My biggest fear in that regard is that DE is going to focus on eliminating the disparity between grineer and other factions at high levels. Yeah, they're like ten times tougher than the others, but contrary to popular belief that's a good thing. In the early game the fun comes from experimenting with elemental combos and figuring out what works best against each faction, but eventually you do figure it out, at which point having to switch just becomes a chore. In the curent system, at endgame you just leave your guns modded against grineer, and the other factions die easily anyway because they're so much weaker. If there's anything that would 100% drive me away from the game, it would be having to go to the arsenal after every f*cking mission to reshuffle the mods on all of my gear. F*ck. That.

Now watch DE do exactly that. I'm calling it right here, right now, that's where we're headed.

Edited by SordidDreams

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Just now, SordidDreams said:

That's not really a repeated mistake, but I do still hate it. I play WF for fast-paced, fluid combat. Piloting a lumbering behemoth, sitting in a gun turret, or running around putting out fires and crafting more fire extinguisher fuel ain't it. None of the crew roles in RJ offers the things that make the rest of WF appealing.

To each their own. I've heard a lot of people do like a lot of these roles, and whilst I also play for fast and fluid combat, I do like how Railjack offers a difference in kind. It's like the puzzles in classic God of War, or the chase sequences in Portal, or the traversal leading up to the fight in Monster Hunter. Sure, they're not as good as the main event, despite taking up so much game time, but they serve primarily to prevent that main event from getting too monotonous. That being said, I would recommend working into a good engine and piloting if you really can't stand how the Railjack handles, because you really do start zipping around a lot faster. Or maybe DE could just balance the archwing weapons properly, but that goes into my rant.

9 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

I do agree with the rest of what you said, a damage rework is sorely needed and has been for years. My biggest fear in that regard is that DE is going to focus on eliminating the disparity between grineer and other factions at high levels. Yeah, they're like ten times tougher than the others, but contrary to popular belief that's a good thing. In the early game the fun comes from experimenting with elemental combos and figuring out what works best against each faction, but eventually you do figure it out, at which point having to switch just becomes a chore. In the curent system you just mod your guns against grineer, and the other factions die easily anyway because they're so much weaker. If there's anything that would 100% drive me away from the game, it would be having to go to the arsenal after every f*cking mission to reshuffle the mods on all of my gear. F*ck. That.

The thing about the disparity is that it's partially the cause of all this. I absolutely understand where you're coming from (I'm exactly the same way, there's a reason I have so many viral/slash crit weapons, because they're good against anything), but the disparity is a lot more of a nuisance than a help. It's pretty hard to make a damage ability useful if one set of targets has one EHP range and the other set has one on a completely different order of magnitude, and still having it not turn of gameplay entirely.

It's entirely possible for DE to intentionally make a 'jack of all trades' route which requires no screwing around with switching builds in a balanced system, especially since we're long past the point of Warframe intentionally going for the truly hardcore route in game design. Looking at Monster Hunter again, you can absolutely min-max for a specific monster or kind of monster if you want, but it's also 100% viable to go for a middle of the road build that's good for everything. A Rathian might be super easy to take out with a hammer and maximising your stun capabilities to stunlock her in place until she dies, but you can still beat her very comfortably by using your charge blade, long sword, gunlance, what have you, with nothing special. With Warframe, we don't have to switch builds not because there is a generally useful go-to setup, but because the damage types we're minimising in the min-max builds are so pathetic that minimal damage is still far more than they can take.

 

Personally, my biggest fear is that DE eliminates the disparity... and then doesn't wind up touching the weapons and powers after the fact. That would be a can of worms... parasitic worms.

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Conclave is dead.  Sorry but if I would've known this was a conclave topic I wouldn't have clicked on it.  Typed that just to waste a few more seconds since I'm here lol.  Yeah I should read tags, I'm dumb.

Edited by (PS4)thowed
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3 hours ago, Titania_Umbra said:

Please stop saying things like "conclave is dead", this gamemode exists and I do not think because of few play it can be the reason of not fixing it.

Conclave is dead, bad and belongs in the trash. The low playercount is the exact reason for not fixing it - nobody but a fringe group of players engages in it, nobody but a fringe group of players cares enough to see it fixed. There is absolutely nothing that can redeem or save this abhorrent waste of Dev-time. 

Edited by Eklectus

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6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I would recommend working into a good engine and piloting if you really can't stand how the Railjack handles, because you really do start zipping around a lot faster.

I have a +50.5/+0.19 Vidar MK3 and rank 8 piloting. In no way does the ship's performance qualify as "zipping around". Back when the Winged avionics affected the railjack and stacked with RJ-specific ones, yes, then it was pretty zippy. Since that's been patched out it's about as nimble as a cinderblock.

It reminds me of old, pre-parkour 2.0 WF that had no bullet jumping. It took rampant glitch abuse for DE to realize that the game is way more fun when you're fast and agile. Sadly they seem to have forgotten that realization and not repeated it with RJ.

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Or maybe DE could just balance the archwing weapons properly, but that goes into my rant.

Yeah, but then everyone would just play the fast-paced and fluid AW combat instead of using the lumbering and slow RJ, and that can't be allowed.

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

It's pretty hard to make a damage ability useful if one set of targets has one EHP range and the other set has one on a completely different order of magnitude, and still having it not turn of gameplay entirely.

Ability damage ignores armor. Boom, solved.

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

It's entirely possible for DE to intentionally make a 'jack of all trades' route which requires no screwing around with switching builds in a balanced system, especially since we're long past the point of Warframe intentionally going for the truly hardcore route in game design.

Possible, yes. But given how much they screw up everything else, especially the previous proposed damage rework that had to be scrapped after players pointed out how crap it was, I don't exactly have a lot of confidence that they'll be able to pull it off. It would be awesome if they did, but...

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Personally, my biggest fear is that DE eliminates the disparity... and then doesn't wind up touching the weapons and powers after the fact. That would be a can of worms... parasitic worms.

Agreed 100%, that would be terrible. Watch it happen.

Edited by SordidDreams

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59 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Yeah, but then everyone would just play the fast-paced and fluid AW combat instead of using the lumbering and slow RJ, and that can't be allowed.

A properly specced railjack will outrun any archwing, even if they spam blink.

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11 minutes ago, Corvid said:

A properly specced railjack will outrun any archwing, even if they spam blink.

Over a short distance maybe. Once it runs out of stamina, the AW will pull ahead again. More to the point, AW is just more fun than RJ, or was before the guns got nerfed into the ground. I use my RJ now as well, but sitting in once place staring at a black hole and shooting into a stationary munitions vortex is boring af. I'd much rather be zooming this way and that through space on mechanical angel wings, dodging shots, catching up to enemy ships, and eviscerating them with a hail of bullets...

Edited by SordidDreams

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10 hours ago, Titania_Umbra said:

Please stop saying things like "conclave is dead",

the truth hurts more than any other weapon.

we say it because it is true: DE haven't even bothered updating conclave in years, and when they tried to branch out by riding Rocket League's hype with Lunaro, that crashed and burned as well. PvP doesn't work well in Warframe, and it would take far too much time and effort to bring it up to a barely playable standard. that's all you would get: something that's OK, compared to the countless other games out there that do PvP better. Warframe has many strengths, but PvP is certainly not one of them.

it's on life support at best, and it's high time to turn off the machine.

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1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

Over a short distance maybe.

Long enough to get between points of interest. And the forward boost from coming out of a drift will generally launch you far enough forward that by the time the archwing catches up you'll already have full stamina again.

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1 hour ago, Corvid said:

Long enough to get between points of interest. And the forward boost from coming out of a drift will generally launch you far enough forward that by the time the archwing catches up you'll already have full stamina again.

Maybe. But again, not really my original point. My point is that RJ is not as fun as AW because it's a much more clumsy, lumbering behemoth. Dropped from a height, even a cinderblock will achieve good straight-line speed. That doesn't make it nimble.

Edited by SordidDreams

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3 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I have a +50.5/+0.19 Vidar MK3 and rank 8 piloting. In no way does the ship's performance qualify as "zipping around". Back when the Winged avionics affected the railjack and stacked with RJ-specific ones, yes, then it was pretty zippy. Since that's been patched out it's about as nimble as a cinderblock.

It reminds me of old, pre-parkour 2.0 WF that had no bullet jumping. It took rampant glitch abuse for DE to realize that the game is way more fun when you're fast and agile. Sadly they seem to have forgotten that realization and not repeated it with RJ.

Vehicles are a different beast. I can see why they tried to make it weighty in the turning department (although straight-line speed is absolutely massive) I honestly wouldn't mind more classes of Railjack with different specs. Abilities on mods might be their choice, but unlike a Warframe, Railjacks can outright play different. Larger, slower gunships bristling with turret locations and hoards of dome charges and missiles allowing for a mighty glacier approach, or dogfighters with more nimble turning, akin to what you're requesting. Railjacks are more like really big weapons, at the end of the day, and weapons handling different is par for the course.

3 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Yeah, but then everyone would just play the fast-paced and fluid AW combat instead of using the lumbering and slow RJ, and that can't be allowed.

Balanced with doesn't necessarily mean equal to. Railjack could still easily be a much better damage-dealer, Archwing is just severely under-powered (seriously, it does 95% reduced damage for whatever reason). It being more nimble than any Railjack would be a good trade-off for the greater vulnerability and lower damage.

3 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Ability damage ignores armor. Boom, solved.

Weapons still get screwed over though. Not necessarily a bad idea with enough work, but the EHP disparity is a problem regardless.

3 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Agreed 100%, that would be terrible. Watch it happen.

Steve mentioned something about trialling damage ideas with Railjack, and Railjack does have its own damage types. So at least I can be confident that they would... eventually. My more realistic fear is that they try pull a melee 2.99 and do it piecemeal, because no amount of valuable feedback would be worth what would happen during the in-between. Especially since it'd probably take even longer than between Melee phase one and two.

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12 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Repeating old mistakes seems to be DE's jam lately. They learned half a decade ago that abilities shouldn't be mods and that a stamina bar has no place in Warframe, and look at Railjack now.

For Railjack it isn't necessary to have infinite sprint.

Unlike in the normal gameplay, you don't have to hurry from one point to the other. Enemies are always there following you and the objectives aren't all that far away.

Plus boosting doesn't do much for you because crew ships will land a shot, it doesn't matter what you're doing.

Edited by JackHargreav

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22 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Vehicles are a different beast. I can see why they tried to make it weighty in the turning department (although straight-line speed is absolutely massive) I honestly wouldn't mind more classes of Railjack with different specs. Abilities on mods might be their choice, but unlike a Warframe, Railjacks can outright play different. Larger, slower gunships bristling with turret locations and hoards of dome charges and missiles allowing for a mighty glacier approach, or dogfighters with more nimble turning, akin to what you're requesting. Railjacks are more like really big weapons, at the end of the day, and weapons handling different is par for the course.

I suppose. What I really want is different ships altogether. Like maybe weaponize the Liset and use it as a nimble one-man fighter (that cloaks when you leave it), and add an intermediate two-person heavy fighter as well. That would solve a lot of the issues I have with RJ and give options to players who don't have enough friends and/or don't want to play with randoms.

22 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Balanced with doesn't necessarily mean equal to. Railjack could still easily be a much better damage-dealer, Archwing is just severely under-powered (seriously, it does 95% reduced damage for whatever reason). It being more nimble than any Railjack would be a good trade-off for the greater vulnerability and lower damage.

It would be a good trade-off if almost every projectile wasn't an aggressively homing missile, which makes maneuverability useless, but that's a whole other can of worms. People say WF is impossible to balance due to armor scaling or whatever, but that's BS. It's impossible to balance because there's tons of unavoidable damage. Hitscan bullets, AoEs, homing missiles... When no amount of skill allows you to dodge incoming damage, you can't play a glass cannon or anything else, tank becomes the only option. That can't be fixed by tweaking numbers, only by changing how enemies and weapons and projectiles behave.

22 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Steve mentioned something about trialling damage ideas with Railjack, and Railjack does have its own damage types. So at least I can be confident that they would... eventually. My more realistic fear is that they try pull a melee 2.99 and do it piecemeal, because no amount of valuable feedback would be worth what would happen during the in-between. Especially since it'd probably take even longer than between Melee phase one and two.

RJ does have its damage types, yeah, but they don't seem very good or balanced to me. Though I guess the 'corrosive' type reducing both armor and shields is nice, and the 'slash' increasing damage taken regardless of target or damage type also makes it universally useful. If they implement those into an eventual damage rework, I guess a universal loadout useful against all factions would be possible.

9 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

For Railjack it isn't necessary to have infinite sprint.

It's not necessary to sprint or bullet jump in regular WF missions either, you could totally play them all just walking slowly and jumping normally. But having that speed and those maneuvers sure makes the game a lot more fun. Same with RJ. No, it's not necessary to have a fast ship, but it would be a lot more fun.

Edited by SordidDreams

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27 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

I suppose. What I really want is different ships altogether. Like maybe weaponize the Liset and use it as a nimble one-man fighter (that cloaks when you leave it), and add an intermediate two-person heavy fighter as well. That would solve a lot of the issues I have with RJ and give options to players who don't have enough friends and/or don't want to play with randoms.

It would be a good trade-off if almost every projectile wasn't an aggressively homing missile, which makes maneuverability useless, but that's a whole other can of worms. People say WF is impossible to balance due to armor scaling or whatever, but that's BS. It's impossible to balance because there's tons of unavoidable damage. Hitscan bullets, AoEs, homing missiles... When no amount of skill allows you to dodge incoming damage, you can't play a glass cannon or anything else, tank becomes the only option. That can't be fixed by tweaking numbers, only by changing how enemies and weapons and projectiles behave.

RJ does have its damage types, yeah, but they don't seem very good or balanced to me. Though I guess the 'corrosive' type reducing both armor and shields is nice, and the 'slash' increasing damage taken regardless of target or damage type also makes it universally useful. If they implement those into an eventual damage rework, I guess a universal loadout useful against all factions would be possible.

It's not necessary to sprint or bullet jump in regular WF missions either, you could totally play them all just walking slowly and jumping normally. But having that speed and those maneuvers sure makes the game a lot more fun. Same with RJ. No, it's not necessary to have a fast ship, but it would be a lot more fun.

the ship dodges farther and moves faster then an archwing.... for some reason u think it doesn't 

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1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

I suppose. What I really want is different ships altogether. Like maybe weaponize the Liset and use it as a nimble one-man fighter (that cloaks when you leave it), and add an intermediate two-person heavy fighter as well. That would solve a lot of the issues I have with RJ and give options to players who don't have enough friends and/or don't want to play with randoms.

Agreed. Not sure about the liset 1:1, in part because although it'd be designed primarily for solo play, it'd be a nuisance preventing players using it for 4-player squads. Still, I could easily see a Railjack billed as a stripped-back fighter/dropship hybrid - stripping side turrets, artillery and the slingshot for the auto-void cloak when no-one's aboard and automatically repairing certain damages, with a much smaller frame and interior leading to an overall more nimble ship. Instead of the five-seven rooms (depending on how you split the multiple floors), just an all-in-one room with the exit, a single forge for just revolite and munitions and the helm. It'd be cramped but it could carry four players if some nitwits decided to do so.

(also, and this is just me, I'd love more ship designs)

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

It would be a good trade-off if almost every projectile wasn't an aggressively homing missile, which makes maneuverability useless, but that's a whole other can of worms. People say WF is impossible to balance due to armor scaling or whatever, but that's BS. It's impossible to balance because there's tons of unavoidable damage. Hitscan bullets, AoEs, homing missiles... When no amount of skill allows you to dodge incoming damage, you can't play a glass cannon or anything else, tank becomes the only option. That can't be fixed by tweaking numbers, only by changing how enemies and weapons and projectiles behave.

Honestly this point applies to the whole game. Homing projectiles and hitscan are applied far too liberally. The damage balance is also a factor, but the two issues exacerbate each other. One would be bad enough but when I dodge one of the few actual projectiles in the game just to get deleted because I failed a luck check with hitscan, or the bloody projectile decided to adjust course to hit me whilst it was off screen? That's just adding salt and pepper to the wound.

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

RJ does have its damage types, yeah, but they don't seem very good or balanced to me. Though I guess the 'corrosive' type reducing both armor and shields is nice, and the 'slash' increasing damage taken regardless of target or damage type also makes it universally useful. If they implement those into an eventual damage rework, I guess a universal loadout useful against all factions would be possible.

Yeah, I suppose that's why Steve wanted to test them in Railjack.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

the ship dodges farther and moves faster then an archwing.... for some reason u think it doesn't 

Turning speed and acceleration also matters. Those are elements that other ships could provide.

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