The removal of hold to Heavy Melee has worse issues than it solved

[Karonuva]

Being forced to use two different buttons for the same action is a huge detriment to gameplay flow, especially since if you want to heavy attack with a primary out you cant just press the melee button to directly heavy attack, you have to switch weapons and then also switch keys. This issue of splitting heavy melee off on its own binding is worsened by the fact you can't share melee functions with other keys, so you can't have a shared binding on R to be both Reload and Heavy Melee for example. Hold to heavy has its own share of issues, but as it stands swapping the old issues for these new issues arguably hurts more than it helps. Warframe is already starved for good keybinding space without having two different buttons for what used to be on the same key.

[CopperBezel]

What?

First, it's shared by the secondary fire button. Second, holding never went straight into a heavy as the first attack, unless you want to count gunblades before Old Blood.

Dropping your combo stack at random during a series of normal attacks, though? That was a new problem when holding to heavy attack was added back. And good riddance. X /

[Drachnyn]

What we should get is a keybind for heavy attacks that works while you have your gun out. Atleast on PC we have easily enough buttons on a keyboard to do something like that. Just how sprint/roll is default on shift but you can also make a keybind for just rolling (no default for that).

[Thrymm]

I like the way it is now better, a thousand fold.  It created no issues whatsoever for me and solved a rather significant issue that severely impacted the functionality of melee in general.

This is also a natural keybinding for it.  Heavy attack is, in essence, a secondary melee attack.  It's bound to secondary fire, so any equipped weapon will use its secondary fire function, including the melee weapon.  It took me less than one mission to adapt my muscle memory to using that logic with it.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

We are not going to turn 2020 into the year of flipflopping the heavy attack command.

[CopperBezel]

I don't see any strong argument against adding it as another option switch after "Melee with Fire Weapon Input", but changing it a third time since OB without doing so would be madness.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

The 'hold for heavy attack' doesn't work for air attacks. So you can't hold melee to do ground slams. Nor does it work mid combo for certain combo strings. Doesn't even work for certain slide attacks either. But for some odd reason it randomly works when spamming the melee button. You can't use at various times and it works at unwanted times. I'm glad DE finally got rid of it.

[Cortanis]

Question... why isn't it just a toggle preference kind of like what they eventually changed archwing control to eventually. As it stands, we already have the option to change key bindings and most people I've talked to already run with custom preferences. Seems like this issue is no different.

[TheGrimCorsair]

1 hour ago, Cortanis said:

Question... why isn't it just a toggle preference kind of like what they eventually changed archwing control to eventually. As it stands, we already have the option to change key bindings and most people I've talked to already run with custom preferences. Seems like this issue is no different.

There's no question.

Dev's covered it on the last devstream. It's not in the cards. Or, to make it more clear, there are not resources available in the pipeline to spare to implement a functioning toggle.

[Cortanis]

On 2020-02-10 at 5:33 AM, TheGrimCorsair said:

There's no question.

Dev's covered it on the last devstream. It's not in the cards. Or, to make it more clear, there are not resources available in the pipeline to spare to implement a functioning toggle.

Not what I meant. This is literally the archwing controls fiasco all over again. They should have learned from that in the very beginning just like most of the industry has learned to let players customize controls for preference. I get that they may eventually fix it back or finally do the toggle, but that doesn't change the fact that it should have been moved to that the moment they started talking about changing it based on preference.

[CopperBezel]

That's the question TheGrimCorsair answered, though. The dumb game of flipping back and forth is dumb, and ideally they should have held off on adding it back in the first place without adding a toggle, but they've apparently said that supporting a toggle is not something they're willing to invest in doing. It's a general rule in software development that every option you offer adds complexity that increases the cost of ongoing support for the whole system, and in this case, just adding or removing the feature wouldn't have this effect. (Or rather, removing it wouldn't, since it never existed in a non-bugged state, so removing means getting to wipe that particular task off the whiteboard as well.) The option they went with was the one that had the least future tweaking and maintenance (none) attached.

Edited February 12, 2020 by CopperBezel

[(XBOX)WolfKingLeo]

How about no? It had problems where if you was meleeing it was triggering heavy attacks which made you loses your combo. Im glad it was Removed.

 

[Cortanis]

13 hours ago, (XB1)WolfKingLeo said:

How about no? It had problems where if you was meleeing it was triggering heavy attacks which made you loses your combo. Im glad it was Removed.

 

I had the exact same problems. Difference is that mapping it to alt fire while requiring going to full melee to use doesn't exactly work well. It's basically back to an iteration of the melee system from 1.0 where we were at the same point but it was still mapped to the attack button as the hold to use. It was changed then for the same issues of taking away from the melee system and encouraging just spamming E.

[(XBOX)Crimson1314]

Yeah, but now I cannot just hold the attack button for a heavy strike. I have to click on the right stick. And that's annoying. And dont tell me to REBIND THE KEYS. THAT ISNT GOING TO HELP. Just put heavy melee into your melee button, by holding down the button for 2 seconds straight. Easy as that.

[GKP_light]

Like lot of things : it should be an option.

And i want the possibility to have heavy attaque key, that can not be share with something other, that i can use for do a melee heavy attaque even if i was using my gun.

[Andele3025]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Crimson1314 said:

Yeah, but now I cannot just hold the attack button for a heavy strike. I have to click on the right stick. And that's annoying. And dont tell me to REBIND THE KEYS. THAT ISNT GOING TO HELP. Just put heavy melee into your melee button, by holding down the button for 2 seconds straight. Easy as that.

Or just rebind or use KB&M as every good video game intends since conception of them.

[Twilight-Knight]

Because there is an outcome of keep using heavy attack without attention so they have to removed it ( for now perhaps ). And now you saying it's not GOOD ENOUGH ?
-  If you want your * Flow * , just make a title : Make key for instant Heavy attack.

I'm not clear on what your mean * Sharing keys * I hope it not just simple mean as I saying, because it will be a serious mess

And why you want to ask for more ? The game already making a great way turning kid mode with OP weapons and this melee system is crap, everyone amusing with high damage when they can't see the balance of true fight has been distorted.

 

[George_PPS]

On 2020-02-08 at 7:41 PM, CephKaron said:

Being forced to use two different buttons for the same action is a huge detriment to gameplay flow, especially since if you want to heavy attack with a primary out you cant just press the melee button to directly heavy attack, you have to switch weapons and then also switch keys. This issue of splitting heavy melee off on its own binding is worsened by the fact you can't share melee functions with other keys, so you can't have a shared binding on R to be both Reload and Heavy Melee for example. Hold to heavy has its own share of issues, but as it stands swapping the old issues for these new issues arguably hurts more than it helps. Warframe is already starved for good keybinding space without having two different buttons for what used to be on the same key.

The current melee 3.0 has much worse combat fluidity and far less top range comparing to melee 2.99. Could DE just bring that fluidity and also the meta range back? Melee 3.0 feels like another game. 

[GKP_light]

Il y a 1 heure, George_PPS a dit :

The current melee 3.0 has much worse combat fluidity and far less top range comparing to melee 2.99. Could DE just bring that fluidity and also the meta range back? Melee 3.0 feels like another game. 

Try a zaw Balla dagger (max crit chance, good attaque speed) with the Stinging Thorn stance and the mod berzerk. (and primed reach, and if possible, a riven with range)

I don't know anything more fluide in the game, i love to play this. And it is very strong.

(edit : https://overframe.gg/build/20809/ )

Edited February 15, 2020 by GKP_light

[CopperBezel]

If combat feels less fluid, the only explanation I can think of is that you just really got used to the rhythm of a particular stance, and then it happened to be one of the ones that saw major changes. All combos are easier to get to now and can interrupt each other, and the stances have been reworked, all of which has been a clear gain for fluidity. 

For range, the fact that Reach and Primed Reach are additive now was a buff to nearly every weapon in every category. A few polearms got slightly more range out of Primed Reach previously, but now everything has ridiculous range and it doesn't matter, so.

Edited February 15, 2020 by CopperBezel

[Andele3025]

2 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

If combat feels less fluid, the only explanation I can think of is that you just really got used to the rhythm of a particular stance, and then it happened to be one of the ones that saw major changes. All combos are easier to get to now and can interrupt each other, and the stances have been reworked, all of which has been a clear gain for fluidity. 

For range, the fact that Reach and Primed Reach are additive now was a buff to nearly every weapon in every category. A few polearms got slightly more range out of Primed Reach previously, but now everything has ridiculous range and it doesn't matter, so.

No, combat is objectively less fluid because DE decided to gut all stance attack chains by cutting them apart with a butchering cleaver and restitch together using animation locks as glue.
The keybinds to access a attack chain doesnt have a impact on the fluidity itself (retarded keybind choices may have been retarded like pause and hold combos, but that was/is a issue of not being able to keybind it outselves while each attack being its own keypress instead of a node tree could have been a major gameplay changer, but the hard locks made it null and void as slide attacks are still the best choice on anything without forced slash procs), no matter what you do, the 9/10 stances forward combo will be slower than holding back and attacking simply due to animation locks. No matter what keys you hold, a forward dash will now only turn based on camera instead of also having partial keyboard steer (which slide attacks still have).

Why de removed all slowdowns, partial steer, loads of velocity boosts, influence of sprint on dashes, etc and replaced it all with #*!%ing damn hard animation locks is beyond me but it objectively made the combat massively less fluid compared to what it was in the few good designed stances.

[George_PPS]

5 hours ago, GKP_light said:

Try a zaw Balla dagger (max crit chance, good attaque speed) with the Stinging Thorn stance and the mod berzerk. (and primed reach, and if possible, a riven with range)

I don't know anything more fluide in the game, i love to play this. And it is very strong.

(edit : https://overframe.gg/build/20809/ )

It’s understandable. Have you tried one of those top meta builds of melee 2.99? It’s so powerful and range so amazing, it’s sacrilegiously fun. Unfortunately it’s gone. 

[George_PPS]

2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

No, combat is objectively less fluid because DE decided to gut all stance attack chains by cutting them apart with a butchering cleaver and restitch together using animation locks as glue.
The keybinds to access a attack chain doesnt have a impact on the fluidity itself (retarded keybind choices may have been retarded like pause and hold combos, but that was/is a issue of not being able to keybind it outselves while each attack being its own keypress instead of a node tree could have been a major gameplay changer, but the hard locks made it null and void as slide attacks are still the best choice on anything without forced slash procs), no matter what you do, the 9/10 stances forward combo will be slower than holding back and attacking simply due to animation locks. No matter what keys you hold, a forward dash will now only turn based on camera instead of also having partial keyboard steer (which slide attacks still have).

Why de removed all slowdowns, partial steer, loads of velocity boosts, influence of sprint on dashes, etc and replaced it all with #*!%ing damn hard animation locks is beyond me but it objectively made the combat massively less fluid compared to what it was in the few good designed stances.

Exactly, overall the new melee is a total let down. Loss of fluidity, d*nm animation lock, and clunky movement that is not Warframe. 

[GKP_light]

il y a 31 minutes, George_PPS a dit :

It’s understandable. Have you tried one of those top meta builds of melee 2.99? It’s so powerful and range so amazing, it’s sacrilegiously fun. Unfortunately it’s gone. 

The maiming strike - bood rush build was op and annoying to play.