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A suggestion for Summons, Nyx Chaos, and Revenant Thralls


Formous
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I think we call can come to agree that companions and summosn tend to not be very good in this game.  Whether for the sake of drawing Aggro, like the Nekros Shadows, or just chaos, like Nyx, all abilities to create Allies, make Allies, or Sow discord to make allies fight, tend to lose their effective potency as enemy armor and scaling increases.  Anything 30 and on tends to out right resist Summoned allies to a point of why they do damage at all.  This is notable with the Grineer.

I have been thinking about how to add some real dps to summons and make them worthwhile allies, and I was thinking, Why don't we change the Damage type of all Chaos affected, Summoned Allies like Thralls and Shadows, and Companion Allies like Venari, and change them to True Damage.  True Damage is a rare damage type we can't normally build for, but some abilities have, and it ignores Armor and resistances, dealing a real damage Value at all times to all targets it hits.  

The Result would be that 30+ enemies hit by a max range Nyx would be able to turn their trumped up damage against each other with Real Effect, and be a major boost to that poor girl.  Nekros Shadows would become strong attackers and take some of the burden to kill enemies. They would remain decent combatants at all ranges and be useful for something other then just tanking hits while doing practically nothing.  Venari would also be just as strong, with damage able to scale much more effectively as enemies grow stronger.  Slash is nice, but the initial attack as true damage would in my opinion make Venari much stronger.  Thralls would simply duplicate the Shadows in this case.

As it is, I don't think Summons do well in the game's current damage meta.  Many of us like having a summoner type warframe, but the Summons are laughable at semi high tiers and pointless any higher. They lag behind, and lack mobility, and when in the middle of the fight, they can't do Jack, relying on Nekros to have decent guns or melee. Nyx on the other hand has no garuntee the chaos afflicted targets won't just shoot her instead.  And when they kill each other, they don't even really hurt each other.  Making their damage type turn to True damage would be a great boon to a chaos oriented build.

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They'd still need a giant boost to the damage they deal, just changing it to true damage wont do anything. Enemy damage is meant to threaten our warframes, which have so much less EHP than other enemies, even before armor. It wouldnt even help all that much outside of grineer.

For example if i want a corrupted heavy gunner to do any sort of good damage to other enemies i have to jack its mindcontrol up to 2000% and on top of that use both nyx's 1 aug and nyx's 2 to remove armor. Your suggestion would remove the need to cast her 2 but that's not enough.

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But at what point would their damage be acceptable without being outright overpowered? If they deal enough damage to easily kill each other then what stops them from dominating the meta by spam summoning/converting enemies by the dozens? Their damage can't be comparable to ours either considering we can one-shot enemies well beyond the lv100+ range but if they aren't comparable then would we be right back to this discussion?

If anything I'd say they're just not meant to deal damage directly with the units and instead they are there to pseudo tank for the frame/squad by drawing enemy fire. Also as far as I'm aware all summon type units have a higher threat level than we do which is meant to make them draw aggro over us, if they aren't then it might be bugged or their threat could perhaps do with a buff.

But really Nyx in particular has been out of favor because the entire concept of crowd control has been largely dead and powercreeped into oblivion. Newer frames since her have similar if not outright more CC than Nyx while also having nuke abilities. If CC can't be made viable again then I'd rather frames like her get some other relevant utility added instead of making them copies of the frames that replaced them.

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I am thinking of allowing them to cast abilities of the warframe that controlled them has like Specters, Kuva Liches, and Wukong Celestial Twin.

Imagine if you're mind controlled target can cast chaos and psychic bolts independently or your revenant's thralls can cast a weaker version of Danse Macabre because 7 of them casting can be a bit OP. That could be amazing.

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Frankly, I understand the concern about summoning them by the dozens, until you consider they are capped at 7.  So you can;t get dozens without a full team of Nekros' running around. And if they do? That's the perogative of the player on the Summoner warframe. Killing lots of enemies fast as a complaint is a silly one when we have warframes like Octavia.

The point I am trying to raise is to get these Summons actual leg room to be playable. Them killing something doesn't make them OP, it makes then capable of making a kill while also being shot at.  What you are missing is tht I don't care if they are or Are not meant to do damage, despite nekros power strength literally increasing their armor and damage.  What I want is to instead make them much better when the game begins any form of scaling, and I don't think it's bad to give them a way to get past enemy defenses.  And Nyx being power creeped is EXACTLY why we need to discuss bringing her into a better light.  She needs work, Badly, and her Chaos suffers the same problems of all the other summonables, if a bit worse.

2 hours ago, trst said:

But at what point would their damage be acceptable without being outright overpowered? If they deal enough damage to easily kill each other then what stops them from dominating the meta by spam summoning/converting enemies by the dozens? Their damage can't be comparable to ours either considering we can one-shot enemies well beyond the lv100+ range but if they aren't comparable then would we be right back to this discussion?

If anything I'd say they're just not meant to deal damage directly with the units and instead they are there to pseudo tank for the frame/squad by drawing enemy fire. Also as far as I'm aware all summon type units have a higher threat level than we do which is meant to make them draw aggro over us, if they aren't then it might be bugged or their threat could perhaps do with a buff.

But really Nyx in particular has been out of favor because the entire concept of crowd control has been largely dead and powercreeped into oblivion. Newer frames since her have similar if not outright more CC than Nyx while also having nuke abilities. If CC can't be made viable again then I'd rather frames like her get some other relevant utility added instead of making them copies of the frames that replaced them.

 

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I've been asking, what if the Summons and Thralls all had increased aggression, specifically what if they behaved like Wukong's Celestial Twin? I believe that Atlas's Rumblers were giving this buff already, so clearly DE are open to the idea. Heck, the Rumblers seem to have a further "teleport-to-player threshold" than Twin does, so if that's a stat that can be  tweaked for each frame I don't think we're at risk of crowding the player in when they have all seven Shadows/Thralls active

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The problem is not damage output, the problem is armour scaling.

You fix that by getting rid of armour scaling entirely. Not capping it, not an asymptotic curve, removing it. That means making it so that a heavy gunner at level 5 has exactly the same armour as a heavy gunner at level 500, which is a different value to that of a powerfist, different in turn to that of an elite lancer, etc.

These problems with specific enemy summon or mind control powers are merely symptoms of a greater issue. Enemy health and damage output already scale. There is no reason for their damage resistance to scale as well.

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If the armor scaling caps off at a more even slope like I heard DE has planned, there is some reasoning that as their level increases and armor flat lines, newer undead might prove deadlier and deadlier, which might prove a solution. Though poor Nyx needs Pablo.  At least Pablo thinks about the reworks. 😞

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3 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I've been asking, what if the Summons and Thralls all had increased aggression, specifically what if they behaved like Wukong's Celestial Twin?

^this. the Twin is by far the best minion, arguably better than the best specters: ridiculous health and armour, and complements your playstyle by switching to gun or melee based on what you're using. it would still be different if Shadows/Thralls/Chaos Victims did this, because they have different health values and still use enemy weapons. in the case of Nekros, he doesn't gain any benefit besides Desecrate if a Shadow dies, so his shadows should be immortal and only expire when their health decays.

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For me, I looked at the Shadows ability.  Aside from the decay rate, the Shadows are summoned at mulitplied values of their HP, Damage, and Armor.  I re-arranged my build back to a slightly risky melee build so I had a lot of duration and PS, and the damage value is currently multiplied by 4.18 times the value of the summoned enemy.  So my shadow does, or should do, 4 times the damage of it's progrenitor.  Forgive me, but that sounds a lot like a DPS boost.

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my nekros has 99% damage reduction by combining shadows of the death with adaptation. That on top of regen, healing return and the raw aggro management coming from a bunch of minions. Could my minions hit hard? Yes. ...should they?

not really. They seem adequate. Nyx too. Mega damage + armorstrip + invincibility is pretty solid.

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