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Valkyr needs a rework, feedback on her abilities


SaschaSnowstorm
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I main Valkyr, I have for years. Now that's not to say I don't play other warframes, each one has a place where they excel, but the vast majority of the time I choose Valkyr when deciding who to play on the mission. 

That said, I've noticed a growing trend regarding Valkyr (and some other classic frames) and how she fits in to a varied squad in current patch; it all comes down to her abilities. For a long time Valkyr has been a bit of a one trick warframe, she has Warcry, and Hysteria. People generally build for one or the other and it's hard to find a middleground where both are effective, the vast majority of endgame players build for Warcry and use Hysteria as a way to heal. Ripline and Paralysis are really quite useless in most cases when it comes down to it. What it comes down to is that players who choose to play as Valkyr usually do so for the combination of high armor and Warcry buff. It's like volt with his speed buff and tesla aoe, frames that are played because people love them for their one or two viable skills and motif.

Something that's been causing me angst is if you look at some of the newer and shinier frames like Wisp you can see that they are combining these popular skills into one warframe, a lot of classic and even mid-life frames are having the thing they are good at taken from them and made obsolete. I see that you at Digital Extremes have been addressing this with a few select frames such as Vauban, and I'd really like to see Valky be one of the next frames you show some love to.

Using Wisp as an example, yes, she is not as tanky as valkyr when it comes to high level burst, but she has a powerhouse of a skillset. Her reservoirs increase EHP for the ENTIRE team, while giving a tone of healing over time. Increase movement and attack speed like mad, to the point that sometimes I think I've just been buffed by a Volt. Although not as good as volts shocking speed augment they also electrocute enemies. It's so many insanely good buffs in one ability. between her passive and Will-O-Wisp she is very survivable as well.

Another example is Mesa, a powerhouse of a frame in general, not only are her skills incredibly powerful, but with armor effectiveness falling off with diminishing returns, her 95% damage reduction can make her tankier than Valkyr, a melee frame who needs good armor to be in the thick of the fight. (not to mention armor is not as good if you have certain statuses applied to you)

So what to do about it? Well, the final decision is of course up to you at DE, but I'd like to talk a little about each skill and share some ideas on how I think they could be better.

Ripline:
 ~ The Problem: Ripline is a fun skill to use when you first play Valkyr, but in all honesty it becomes completely useless quite quickly. The damage is not enough to even tickle grineer past level 40 and Warframes have such insane mobility (also operators) that ripline is even obselete for getting around. Finally, although you can use ripline to yank an enemy around for laughs this is generally completely useless as well; they usually end up 50 meters behind Valkyr, face hidden against the ground where team mates cannot get in headshots, and you have to run over to them to continue damage with your melee. Ripline is just not a viable skill in any significant way.
~  A solution: Since Ripline is a mobility oriented skill, why not have it apply a speed buff to Valkyr (and nearby allies?) on cast. Being a melee frame, Valkyr could really use some extra speed to get in and out of fights, Ripline could be made into a great mobility skill that compliments her playstyle.

Warcry:
~  The Problem: Although warcry is a solid skill for attack speed it needs more support skills to round out Valkyr's skillset. It also has short duration, high cost, and long cast time, making it nearly useless without Valkyr's Eternal War augment. The skill should be more viable without the need for an augment to make or break it. Another issue is the slow, it's great! The slow is great, or it would be! But the skill is expensive, slow to cast, and cannot be recast until it ends. Additionally, most Valkyr builds abandon range altogether and her augment actually makes it even more impossible to make good use of the slow. Finally the armor buff is a little lackluster, on team mates it is ineffective on most frames as they have low armor, and on Valkyr herself, stacking armor has diminishing returns, so another 700 armor is nice but not actually as strong as it sounds.
~  A Solution: An option to recast Warcry at half cost to reapply the slow and add some time to the buff. Eternal War would still be great or you would use all your energy, but the skill would have more utility as well as being more viable on it's own. Maybe Warcry could also give a small % based damage mitigation to Valkyr and her allies, this would bypass the issues with buffing armor on frames with little or too high base armor. Another idea would be to give both attack speed and fire rate, this would be more in line with melee 3.0 and the ability to switch between gun and blade fluidly. It would be a great team buff regardless of whether team mates are actually using their melee weapons.

Paralysis:
~  The Problem: Opening up enemies to finishers is buggy this patch, I often press f only to have nothing happen or worse have Valkyr switch to her primary weapon and try to reload surrounded by enemies (during hysteria this is very bad and you'll take a lot of damage). Even compared to classic frames like Excalibur, this CC is inferior in almost every way. I rarely see anyone use it, and doing a finisher on a level 100 grineer just... tickles them. 
~ A Solution: Most frames with a similar CC have much longer duration and auxilliary effects (inaros blind, excals blind, garas wall, it goes on). The augment is also kinda useless. Maybe increase the duration, range, and cost of Paralysis or move the slow effect from warcry to Paralysis instead; perfect, re-castable, good utility skill for team play!
 

Hysteria:
~  Feedback: Hysteria is mostly fine as is, but it's been buggy this patch. Often I aim glide, aim, or just try to start a right click melee combo only to break the invulnerability in the process and be exposed to a bunch of nasty status procs and damage at a bad time. Finishers from warcry have also been buggy, and even before melee 3.0 I always used a heavy attack to open enemies to finishers instead. Now with how Hysterias heavies do a strange knockdown and reset the counter, I've found it hard to perform a finisher before the enemy gets back up, and the finishers themselves don't deal as much damage if at a 1x melee combo multiplier after the heavy.

I hope you find these notes useful and will consider looking over Valkyrs skills. A lot of people love her, she s classy and classic, but she and many classic frames are being rendered obsolete by some of the newer shinier frames

Please give Valkitty the love she deserves ❤️
~ Sascha

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  • Ripline and Paralysis don't scale much with Mods so they aren't focused on when Modding because you get them for free, mostly.
    • though Prolonged Paralysis is an excellent Augment that does something really different with an Ability, quite the rarity in this game. Augments usually being Ability++, which is rather lameduck.
  • please note that Wisps' Reservoirs are actually not that great, they are weaker versions of buffs from essentially half a dozen different Warframes. despite being weaker than all of the Warframes that they pull from, you get to have these traits all at once, which is what makes them useful. if you didn't get all of these traits mixed at once, they wouldn't be all that useful.
    • there is one exception, and that is the Health Bonus that Wisp offers, which is stronger than what Elemental Ward offers.
  • Mesa can have higher EHP than Valkyr to some attack types mostly just because Enemies can't bypass real DR, but they can bypass Armor, just like we bypass theirs. which is why Corpus and some Infested units just to name a few deal a lot of Damage to Warframes that specialize in Health.

so back on Valkyr now:
-Ripline offers a useful style of single target CC, good for taking a problematic Enemy (like some Eximus buffing the others nearby) and moving it into a different Zipcode. sure, since Players are usually W+M1'ing through lv 10-40 Missions where literally nothing matters and you just walk to the end - Players rarely need such a feature, but it's definitely useful when Enemies have EHP that you can't deplete instantly. so Enemies at Level several hundred, it's useful to move a Priority Target somewhere else so that it stops buffing its Allies or such.


-Eternal War isn't a necessary Augment, it does let you continue attacking and not have to Cast the Ability again, but that doesn't mean it's a necessity. i prefer to have that Mod Slot, with not awful Duration i'm fine with Casting Warcry sometimes. so i get an extra Mod Slot to work with.
-the Armor Bonus Warcry adds is not "bad because of Diminishing Returns" - that's not how thing work - the Diminishing Returns on Armor is only because of Mod Slots and other limitations you're usually working with. where spending more Mod Slots on Armor isn't worth it because it doesn't give enough. but that's not because Armor has Diminishing Returns, increasing Armor is always of equal value. it's how valuable what you could have instead of that extra Armor that makes the Diminishing Returns situation.
since Warcry is an Ability and thusly doesn't cost a Mod Slot, the Armor Bonus is more than welcome, it significantly increases your EHP against non Armor bypassing attacks.


-uhh... are you sure you're pressing the right button for Finishers? it's the Interact button, whatever you have that bound to. while dead Players or Objectives and Et Cetera might cause priority problems if you're near those, i can't say i've had the Finisher prompt not work when i press the button.
-if you're accidentally Reloading when trying to perform Finishers, go to the Options and disable 'Context Action includes Reload' which if you ask me is definitely an appalling 'feature' that just gets you Killed.
-how exactly does performing a Finisher on a Lv100 Enemy do almost no Damage? this sounds like the way your Melee Weapon is Modded(or using Melee Classes that are really, really bad at Finishers), not that Finishers don't do a lot of Damage. because Finishers do a lot of Damage.
-Prolonged Paralysis is not useless, that's objectively false. aside from the CC you get, Enemies are put in a position for you to very quickly deal with them all at once, since they're overlapping on each other. that's quite the boon for Melee, you can hit all of the Enemies at once and while they cannot retaliate. how is that not useful? doesn't mean you have to use it but how in any way is that not useful.


-trying to Aimglide of use Animation sequences and having Valkyr "put Hysteria away" is certainly dumb though, no question there. i'd say the same for Exalted Blade too, it's just kinda dumb that the active Weapon that's also Draining Energy is now in your pocket somehow. Instant Switch is great, but it should work a little bit different for Exalted Melee Weapons.
-note that you can reduce the amount of Hit Counter that is consumed with Efficiency Mods and the Zenurik Efficiency node. 

 

again since Ripline and normal Paralysis essentially come for free regardless of what you Mod for, that's why the most popular Mod Loadouts don't focus on traits that they benefit from.
though, i would not be against increasing the Range of Ripline to 90 or 100 Meters.

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Good points and thanks for the tip about disabling context reload, I didn't know you could do that. Reload should live on the R key only.

I disagree about the paralysis augment, it's cool in theory, sure, but I've tried building for it several times and it never seems to work as expected. enemies are pulled slowly and get caught on everything; In addition it requires building for quite a bit of range which detracts from other skills. I also still think ripline needs a secondary effect of some form, I'm not suggesting removing it's core function, but moving one enemy of level 'several hundred' isn't exactly a situation you run into much either in regular gameplay. Many of the enemies you'd want to peel off with Ripline are also immune as well, bursas, crewman eximus with bubble, sentients.

For the armor I'm using the damage reduction formula found on the wiki 'https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Armor' which says that after 2k you get only an extra % or two from dumping more armor on your build. It also does not deal with puncture well, which, I see a lot of enemy guns use. I couldn't imagine recasting warcry every 22 sec either, not without natural talent but you may as well run the aug then.

To clarify on finishers, they do massive damage, but what i'm trying to say is if I reset my combo by doing a heavy knockdown and attack a bombard eximus sometimes the result is a little lackluster. I'll see if I can do finishers more reliably with paralysis after disabling the reload.


Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Valkyr, but I'd like to see her abilities get a team based rework so that she is a welcome member of any squad, as well as getting a couple of buffs to her less used skills. Newer warframes have kits that synergize really well and provide team benefits while Valkyr Has 2 good skills, one of which is mainly only used briefly as a way to get health back before going back to regular melee.

Imagine ripline giving you and nearby allies a short speed buff, people would actually use it while navigating levels. Paralysis providing a small measure of slow like Warcry does currently. And Warcry giving % resist instead of armor, which would make valkyr a great team player.
 

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For Valkyr:

Remove rip line. Add something that improves movement speed, melee damage or both.

Warcry loses the slow, duration increased to 20 secs and cost down to 50. Possible cast time reduction. Without Eternal War this skill currently borders on unusable. I like Sascha suggestion for Warcry re-application.

Paralysis, add the slow to it. AOE increased to 20 meters from 10 meters.

Hysteria is fine as is. It is niche, primarily used for the invulnerability. Good damage with no setup. 

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14 hours ago, SaschaSnowstorm said:

I main Valkyr, I have for years. Now that's not to say I don't play other warframes, each one has a place where they excel, but the vast majority of the time I choose Valkyr when deciding who to play on the mission

I like her, but only War Cry works at the moment. Here claws really suffered in the current melee rework - no bleeds on their custom stance and no combo mods for exalted weapons means the basic Venka can outperform them with a little combo built up.

My suggestions: Ripline AoE that hits lots of enemies at once, paralysis works without shield, turn her claws into bleed-proc combo monsters:

 

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4 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I like her, but only War Cry works at the moment. Here claws really suffered in the current melee rework - no bleeds on their custom stance and no combo mods for exalted weapons means the basic Venka can outperform them with a little combo built up.

My suggestions: Ripline AoE that hits lots of enemies at once, paralysis works without shield, turn her claws into bleed-proc combo monsters:

Bleed procs on claws sound like fun, not good vs sentients though in the upcoming new war. I think a big problem with Hysteria is how it loses it's combo counter constantly, unless you build exclusively for Hysteria, but even then it ends eventually or you get nullified. What if you kept 50% of your combo for the next cast or something similar?

Edited by SaschaSnowstorm
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2 hours ago, SaschaSnowstorm said:

Bleed procs on claws sound like fun, not good vs sentients though in the upcoming new war. I think a big problem with Hysteria is how it loses it's combo counter constantly, unless you build exclusively for Hysteria, but even then it ends eventually or you get nullified. What if you kept 50% of your combo for the next cast or something similar?

Hysteria does not benefit much from combo counter (only gladiator mods). In addition, very rarely you will use the claws as primary damage source. Normally, you Hysteria:

  1. When you need invulnerability.
  2. For instant high damage, if you do not have a counter on your melee weapon.
  3. For different damage type on the claws, assuming melee weapon is not going to be idea against specific enemy. I normally have slash+viral on melee weapons and corrosive on the claws.

Melee weapons will always be your primary damage source. 

There are suggestions to make melee combo counter universal (crosses between exalted weapons and melee weapons) and make exalted weapons able to equip blood rush and weeping wounds. This discussion goes beyond Valkyr. As it currently stands, I think Hysteria is in a good place. Rip line and paralysis is what needs serious work. 

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5 hours ago, SaschaSnowstorm said:

Bleed procs on claws sound like fun, not good vs sentients though in the upcoming new war

Yeah, but not every frame needs to be super strong against every enemy.

If you wanted to use paracesis you could use my proposed change to her 1 to bring all those floaty bois into range for one combo building sweep or heavy attack.

5 hours ago, SaschaSnowstorm said:

Hysteria is how it loses it's combo counter constantly, unless you build exclusively for Hysteria, but even then it ends eventually or you get nullified

The current meta isn't just about keeping the combo. She should be building it up and then burning it on a heavy attack - it needs to build up fast (which is also in my design).

5 hours ago, SaschaSnowstorm said:

What if you kept 50% of your combo for the next cast or something similar?

You keep all your combo now, so long as it's within the timeout.

3 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Hysteria does not benefit much from combo counter (only gladiator mods).

That's why I proposed:

Specifically that her claws should have built-in versions of Weeping Wounds and Blood Rush. As in those are just passives of the ability.

3 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Melee weapons will always be your primary damage source. 

Aaannd that's why she's currently busted. Valkyr is the melee first frame - her expensive to to use (and keep using) exalted claws should feel devastating, like better than any other weapon. She should be good with any melee, but using her 4 should always be a step up or, as you say, it's just cheap invulnerability or an alt melee weapon.

3 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

There are suggestions to make melee combo counter universal (crosses between exalted weapons and melee weapons) and make exalted weapons able to equip blood rush and weeping wounds. This discussion goes beyond Valkyr.

Yeah, Wukong's in a bad place thanks to this too. Exalted melee sucks in the combo meta.

3 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

As it currently stands, I think Hysteria is in a good place.

Really? You just said her claws will never be as good as a generic melee. I think hysteria is busted.

3 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Rip line and paralysis is what needs serious work. 

Agreed, but I think the changes are simple.

Ripline will never be useful for maneuverability, we just don't need help with that. The pulling enemies close mechanic is, but one enemy at a time and having to aim? I'll either use a gun or pounce to them (with her augment) or just regular jump to them.

Ripline should work more like Magus Lockdown, pulling lots of enemies in so you can swipe at them. I don't think it needs to lock the enemies down, just bring them from far away to melee range.

So you fire it in a cone in front and every enemy in that cone is dragged to right in front of you. Super useful, ties in well with her theme, doesn't need new assets or animations, good as a 1st ability because it just moves the enemies.

Paralysis as free finishers is fine, but needs to not rely on shields as armour tank Valkyr never has them. Fire it, costs energy, enemies nearby now open to finishers, same as Inaros and Excal.

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19 hours ago, SaschaSnowstorm said:

I disagree about the paralysis augment, it's cool in theory, sure, but I've tried building for it several times and it never seems to work as expected. enemies are pulled slowly and get caught on everything; In addition it requires building for quite a bit of range which detracts from other skills.

I also still think ripline needs a secondary effect of some form

For the armor I'm using the damage reduction formula found on the wiki which says that after 2k you get only an extra % or two from dumping more armor on your build.


Imagine ripline giving you and nearby allies a short speed buff, people would actually use it while navigating levels.
Paralysis providing a small measure of slow like Warcry does currently.
And Warcry giving % resist instead of armor, which would make valkyr a great team player.

  • the only major thing is that you end up having to Cast Warcry more often if you're having high Range and thusly not as much Duration as otherwise. the rest is compensated for fine.
  • certainly, Ripline has a feature that's useful, but it should probably do more than that.
  • sure, 300 Armor is 50% DR and 900 is "only" 75% DR, but you still gained the same amount of EHP. this continues up to infinity Armor.
    so 300 Armor is 2x EHP, and 900 Armor is 2x EHP again.
    and then 2100 Armor (87.5%), is 2x EHP again.
    • each time that you triple your Armor, you have double the EHP. it doesn't change even when you have Quintillions of Armor.
    • as i said, the Diminishing Returns is in the opportunity cost of actually Equipping that extra Armor, as we are limited by Slots on everything and then it's a matter of what could you have instead of that extra Armor and often times other things being more useful.
  • if you're thinking of it in terms of the 'amount of Percent' that you get - it would have to go down as you get more Armor, because you're getting closer and closer to 100%. just as 50%DR is 2x EHP, but you don't need another 50% DR to have 4x, another 50% would be infinite EHP!
    if we did get 'the same amount of Percent' per point of Armor always, then on every Warframe in the game we'd have every Armor Mod Equipped at once because each extra point of Armor would become more valuable than the last. and then Warframes with high starting Armor, would totally reach 100% DR with a few Armor Mods.

 

i already use Ripline out of Combat when it's appropriate, when it will let me change my Velocity, Accelerate faster, gain more height, Et Cetera :P
as a Movement Abiilty i don't see a whole lot of teamwork traits in it. the closest to that it has now is being able to pull Players, but we have Parkour thesedays so yanking someone onto a Platform isn't a big deal anymore.

uhhh, why not i guess, normal Paralysis could have a Slowing Effect. probably one that doesn't Mod scale though.

yes ofcourse if Warcry gave real DR instead of Armor it would be better, but it would then also be better. i wouldn't complain about Warcry providing a Final Multiplier for Armor since the values that Warcry can offer are so much more limited than what offered it before (Vex Armor), where you realistically couldn't get more than ~2.625x Armor anyways, which is already prohibitively difficult to use as it is from the negatives that you would incur from getting just that much.

11 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

no bleeds on their custom stance and no combo mods for exalted weapons means the basic Venka can outperform them with a little combo built up.

paralysis works without shield

Hysteria competes in return with an AoE attack that deals 18x Damage.

Paralysis already works regardless of whether you have any Shield points or not. having Shields only determines how much Damage it does.

5 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Hysteria does not benefit much from combo counter (only gladiator mods).

Exalted Melee will gain 4x Damage from the Hit Counter being at 12x - they do get something but only if you can build the Hit Counter quickly, otherwise it takes too long to be concerned with. it's a nice trait if one is deciding to go for Gladiator Set either way though.
too long of a 'warmup' for me, but, it's an option either way.

Edited by taiiat
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7 minutes ago, taiiat said:
  • the only major thing is that you end up having to Cast Warcry more often if you're having high Range and thusly not as much Duration as otherwise. the rest is compensated for fine.
  • certainly, Ripline has a feature that's useful, but it should probably do more than that.
  • sure, 300 Armor is 50% DR and 900 is "only" 75% DR, but you still gained the same amount of EHP. this continues up to infinity Armor.
    so 300 Armor is 2x EHP, and 900 Armor is 2x EHP again.
    and then 2100 Armor (87.5%), is 2x EHP again.
    • each time that you triple your Armor, you have double the EHP. it doesn't change even when you have Quintillions of Armor.
    • as i said, the Diminishing Returns is in the opportunity cost of actually Equipping that extra Armor, as we are limited by Slots on everything and then it's a matter of what could you have instead of that extra Armor and often times other things being more useful.
  • if you're thinking of it in terms of the 'amount of Percent' that you get - it would have to go down as you get more Armor, because you're getting closer and closer to 100%. just as 50%DR is 2x EHP, but you don't need another 50% DR to have 4x, another 50% would be infinite EHP!
    if we did get 'the same amount of Percent' per point of Armor always, then on every Warframe in the game we'd have every Armor Mod Equipped at once because each extra point of Armor would become more valuable than the last. and then Warframes with high starting Armor, would totally reach 100% DR with a few Armor Mods.

 

i already use Ripline out of Combat when it's appropriate, when it will let me change my Velocity, Accelerate faster, gain more height, Et Cetera 😛
as a Movement Abiilty i don't see a whole lot of teamwork traits in it. the closest to that it has now is being able to pull Players, but we have Parkour thesedays so yanking someone onto a Platform isn't a big deal anymore.

uhhh, why not i guess, normal Paralysis could have a Slowing Effect. probably one that doesn't Mod scale though.

yes ofcourse if Warcry gave real DR instead of Armor it would be better, but it would then also be better. i wouldn't complain about Warcry providing a Final Multiplier for Armor since the values that Warcry can offer are so much more limited than what offered it before (Vex Armor), where you realistically couldn't get more than ~2.625x Armor anyways, which is already prohibitively difficult to use as it is from the negatives that you would incur from getting just that much.

Your missing the point, Valkyr can get high armor easily, yes, but at around 75+ DR it gets prohibitively expensive build-wise to increase it further, the highest you can get without bending over backwards is around 85-90%, which is A) Not effective vs Puncture or Corrosive B) Is not as crazy as it sounds at high levels due to the sheer damage enemies start dealing C) Many frames get 90% or more true damage reduction at the push of a button, sometimes sharing with the entire team

To summarize, Valkyr is a tank frame whos source of DR starts to have issues at high levels against enemies that have a puncture component to their damage (a lot of them), and she needs to be in their faces thus susceptible to face-tanking the damage. A ranged DPS frame like, say, Mesa, who does not need to be face-tanking, can get more DR than Valkyr with the push of a button.

That said, this is starting to go off on a tangent away from the main issues which are that some of her skills need to be looked at.

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17 minutes ago, SaschaSnowstorm said:

Your missing the point, Valkyr can get high armor easily, yes, but at around 75+ DR it gets prohibitively expensive build-wise to increase it further, the highest you can get without bending over backwards is around 85-90%, which is A) Not effective vs Puncture or Corrosive B) Is not as crazy as it sounds at high levels due to the sheer damage enemies start dealing C) Many frames get 90% or more true damage reduction at the push of a button, sometimes sharing with the entire team

we do have to keep in mind that Enemies can bypass Armor, yes. so we cannot rely on just Armor, since Armor is mediocre. stacking Adaptation on top of Armor makes the Warframe plenty durable enough for anything one might be trying to do though.

15 minutes ago, SaschaSnowstorm said:

To get the same DR as shatter shield, but still vulnerable to puncture, you would need over 6000 armor. This is not doable or realistic.

sure, at the limitation of general practicality (Equipping one Armor Mod and no more), Valkyr hits just 4650 Armor. though you could add Guardian to that, for 5850 or basically your goalpost(5700 for 95%) reached.
just don't get hit by Toxin/Gas/Fire/Slash Status or a Melee attack, as Mesa.

Edited by taiiat
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15 minutes ago, taiiat said:

we do have to keep in mind that Enemies can bypass Armor, yes. so we cannot rely on just Armor, since Armor is mediocre. stacking Adaptation on top of Armor makes the Warframe plenty durable enough for anything one might be trying to do though.

sure, at the limitation of general practicality (Equipping one Armor Mod and no more), Valkyr hits just 4650 Armor. though you could add Guardian to that, for 5850 or basically your goalpost(5700 for 95%) reached.
just don't get hit by Toxin/Gas/Fire/Slash Status or a Melee attack, as Mesa.

Does slash/toxin go through % based damage reduction?

Also how are you getting such high armor value? I generally sit at around 2.1k + another 700 (100% of base) from warcry, so around 3k. Without arcanes I can only think of the gladiator mod and armored agility but that's another < 700

That said, Valkyr is still tanky, That's not what I take issue with. I don't 'like' that a lot of powerhouse frames get huge damage resistances without being geared for tanking, but what I really care about are how half Valkyrs skills are generally not used and the other half may need some TLC as well.

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51 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Exalted Melee will gain 4x Damage from the Hit Counter being at 12x - they do get something but only if you can build the Hit Counter quickly, otherwise it takes too long to be concerned with. it's a nice trait if one is deciding to go for Gladiator Set either way though.
too long of a 'warmup' for me, but, it's an option either way.

Is that a suggestion, or is that something that actually exists? Because if it does exist I'd like to see the source for that claim.

As far as I am aware the only things that scale with combo counter are specific mods and set mods, heavy attacks, Ash's Blade Storm, Atlas' Landslide, Excalibur's Slash Dash, Gara's Shattered Lash and Khora's Whipclaw.

No melee weapon, exalted or not, gains a base damage boost from combo.

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5 minutes ago, Derium-Envy said:

Is that a suggestion, or is that something that actually exists? Because if it does exist I'd like to see the source for that claim.

As far as I am aware the only things that scale with combo counter are specific mods and set mods, heavy attacks, Ash's Blade Storm, Atlas' Landslide, Excalibur's Slash Dash, Gara's Shattered Lash and Khora's Whipclaw.

No melee weapon, exalted or not, gains a base damage boost from combo.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Melee

Looks like the combo only applies to the damage of heavy attacks on regular melee, and up to 4x (with venka) to 'certain warframe abilities' which is fairly vague.

 

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1 minute ago, SaschaSnowstorm said:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Melee

Looks like the combo only applies to the damage of heavy attacks on regular melee, and up to 4x (with venka) to 'certain warframe abilities' which is fairly vague.

If you scroll down a tiny bit from this you'll find a list of abilities that scale with combo counter.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Melee#Combo_Multiplier

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21 minutes ago, SaschaSnowstorm said:

Does slash/toxin go through % based damage reduction?

Also how are you getting such high armor value? I generally sit at around 2.1k + another 700 (100% of base) from warcry, so around 3k. Without arcanes I can only think of the gladiator mod and armored agility but that's another < 700

what I really care about are how half Valkyrs skills are generally not used and the other half may need some TLC as well.

Shatter Shield doesn't protect against Melee or Status Effects. but Slash Status does bypass Armor entirely, yes.

2/3 Umbral and the highest level of Strength that one could realistically use generally. which i usually call 3x Strength.
i.e. 1200 * 1 + (1.375 + 1.5) == 4650

...

oh, i was assuming Prime had 1200 - i'm not sure why i remembered 1200 but i digress, 700 it is.
2713 instead.
reinforces me having no qualms about Warcry applying a 1.5x Final Multiplier to Armor instead of +50% Bonus, it wouldn't cause any problems due to the nature of the Ability. (not that i'm using any Armor Mods on Valkyr thesedays anyways, no space for it and Adaptation and not having Adaptation would be a mistake on my part - but that's a different matter)

 

Ripline is situational mostly for Movement and moving an Enemy once in a while sure, but 3/4 having consistent uses in Gameplay is pretty good. just because most of the Playerbase doesn't talk about it or you don't find some surface level guides about an Ability doesn't mean it doesn't have useful features though. i never play Valkyr without Prolonged Paralysis frankly, the Melee efficiency that it offers + some CC is too useful a tool for me to pass up.

17 minutes ago, Derium-Envy said:

Is that a suggestion, or is that something that actually exists? Because if it does exist I'd like to see the source for that claim.

it is not a feature i would ever be bothered to Mod for due to how much of a 'warmup' my Abilities would have then. if you've tested it and it's not applied to Melee type Abilities across the board, i'll take your word for it.

Edited by taiiat
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I think Valkyr could use a rework too. When Garuda came out, she felt like Valkyr 2.0 to me, and still does.

One of the things that I think makes Garuda feel so streamlined to play, is that she's a melee-oriented frame with homing attacks. Those homing attacks make it a lot easier to be mobile with a melee playstyle. Valkyr could do with something like this. How about if tapping Ripline made Valkyr grab the enemy and then leap to them, while holding Ripline would grab the enemy and pull them to Valkyr as it currently does?

I know Valkyr has the Hysterical Assault augment, but it takes up a mod slot, only works during Hysteria, and is very clunky to use.

Edited by SteveCutler
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23 minutes ago, SteveCutler said:

I think Valkyr could use a rework too. When Garuda came out, she felt like Valkyr 2.0 to me, and still does.

One of the things that I think makes Garuda feel so streamlined to play, is that she's a melee-oriented frame with homing attacks

Really? Really? Garuda? "Streamlined"?

Garuda sucks at melee, her claws are deliberately fairly weak, her defence is very directional (it does not work in a scrum) and her 2 main DPS (bleed and then bloodball) are both ranged, probably airborne attacks that go through walls.

She's a DPS monster, but also a glass cannon with a risk/reward balance.

Meanwhile Valkyr is a brawler, tons of armour, invulnerable+self heal on her 4, no range or AoE but up close she's a blender.

Valkyr just needs updating to keep up with the modern melee meta.

30 minutes ago, SteveCutler said:

How about if tapping Ripline made Valkyr grab the enemy and then leap to them, while holding Ripline would grab the enemy and pull them to Valkyr as it currently does?

Ripline should just grab all the enemies and bring them to Valkyr. That's what a melee frame needs - not close on one enemy (she has pounce anyway), not bring one enemy to her, just bring all the enemies up close where here other abilities become useful.

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6 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Yeah, but not every frame needs to be super strong against every enemy.

If you wanted to use paracesis you could use my proposed change to her 1 to bring all those floaty bois into range for one combo building sweep or heavy attack.

The current meta isn't just about keeping the combo. She should be building it up and then burning it on a heavy attack - it needs to build up fast (which is also in my design).

You keep all your combo now, so long as it's within the timeout.

That's why I proposed:

Specifically that her claws should have built-in versions of Weeping Wounds and Blood Rush. As in those are just passives of the ability.

Aaannd that's why she's currently busted. Valkyr is the melee first frame - her expensive to to use (and keep using) exalted claws should feel devastating, like better than any other weapon. She should be good with any melee, but using her 4 should always be a step up or, as you say, it's just cheap invulnerability or an alt melee weapon.

Yeah, Wukong's in a bad place thanks to this too. Exalted melee sucks in the combo meta.

Really? You just said her claws will never be as good as a generic melee. I think hysteria is busted.

Agreed, but I think the changes are simple.

Ripline will never be useful for maneuverability, we just don't need help with that. The pulling enemies close mechanic is, but one enemy at a time and having to aim? I'll either use a gun or pounce to them (with her augment) or just regular jump to them.

Ripline should work more like Magus Lockdown, pulling lots of enemies in so you can swipe at them. I don't think it needs to lock the enemies down, just bring them from far away to melee range.

So you fire it in a cone in front and every enemy in that cone is dragged to right in front of you. Super useful, ties in well with her theme, doesn't need new assets or animations, good as a 1st ability because it just moves the enemies.

Paralysis as free finishers is fine, but needs to not rely on shields as armour tank Valkyr never has them. Fire it, costs energy, enemies nearby now open to finishers, same as Inaros and Excal.

Hysteria is in a good place, not cuz its great damage, but cuz it makes you invulnerable. It is still capable of killing most level 100 enemies and below in one slide attack (I have 4 forma in the claws and all mods fully decked). If claws are ever to be Valkyr primary source of damage, Hysteria energy cost will have to drop significantly, and thus, probably remove the invulnerability. And as someone who has Gram Prime with BiS rolled riven, I am not sure how balanced Hysteria would be if it crosses this damage threshold. Kill level 150 enemies in one shot? 

Not that I mind if Hysteria gets buffed. As long as RIP line and paralysis are addressed first.

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49 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

If claws are ever to be Valkyr primary source of damage

I guess not most used, but they should definitely be better than any other weapon. Hysteria should not be a damage downgrade.

59 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

And as someone who has Gram Prime with BiS rolled riven, I am not sure how balanced Hysteria would be if it crosses this damage threshold. Kill level 150 enemies in one shot?

I'd settle for carving through the crews in Railjacks veil. Yes, it should be better than the Gram Prime, maybe not with a riven (which are about to be nerfed hard anyway).

1 hour ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Hysteria is in a good place, not cuz its great damage, but cuz it makes you invulnerable

The invulnerability is good, but it does kind of suck that you're doing less damage while in it. I mean, Nyx's absorb has invulnerability too and it's the most boring thing.

1 hour ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

As long as RIP line and paralysis are addressed first

Yeah, they're more broken.

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2 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I guess not most used, but they should definitely be better than any other weapon. Hysteria should not be a damage downgrade.

I'd settle for carving through the crews in Railjacks veil. Yes, it should be better than the Gram Prime, maybe not with a riven (which are about to be nerfed hard anyway).

The invulnerability is good, but it does kind of suck that you're doing less damage while in it. I mean, Nyx's absorb has invulnerability too and it's the most boring thing.

Yeah, they're more broken.

For Gram prime, ya.. it is currently ridiculous. level 110 heavy gunners, summoned 8 in circuliam. It takes about 1-2 secs from 1st hit. That 1.44 disposition..To be fair, I have also Orthos prime with well rolled riven as well, which has 0.5 disposition. It is not that much slower. Maybe a sec more. Hopefully we see frame changes soon. 

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What i would do to Valkyr is change her 1 to something like landslide. She’ll dash at enemies attacking with both her Riplines ( she does have 2 right?) Consistently.  Every hit boosts her damage and costs less as long as you keep the chain going.  Not aiming at someone causes her to leap in that direction.

Her 3 Is split into 2. She’ll do a three hit ripline combo ending with an X shaped slash wave when pressed and holding it will have her put a claw in the ground and yank up debris in some devastating rage explosion.  Pressing drains some of her attack from the one and Holding drains all of it increasing the damage of both skills for some power.

Her 4 needs a redesign.  The more you attack enemies the longer the claws become increasing the range and boosting her other abilities. 
 

idk lol im tryna think of something for her cause she does have two riplines.  Why doesnt she use them and slice up more enemies you know.

Edit:  Her 1 would be a 4 hit combo.  1 hit with both riplines followed by a cross slash wave followed by a ground pound with them.  Her first 2 hits have her lunge while the last 2 minimizes movement.  Damage increases for every hit constantly.

 

Id change her 3 to something that allows her to absorb damage done to allies and taking it upon herself.  This damage would increase her damage and give damage reduction to nearby allies for more survivablity

Edited by (PS4)Gin_Da_Merciless
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Guess I'll throw in my two cents and offer up some ideas.

I believe her kit needs some tweaking while keeping the original functions of her powers intact. Take the following ideas for example:

  • Double her overall cast speed.
  • Her Rip Line and Paralysis are either redundant in combat when compared to other basic combat options available to the player and require modifying their functionality. 
    • Rip Line could transform into a cone attack when targeting an enemy. Alternatively, enemies afflicted by Rip Line could be momentarily "tied up". It could also bring one opponent or nearly all opponents within the range of the target to the Valkyr near-instantly in a cluster. Regardless of the change involved, its use should not result in movement lock for the player.
    • Paralysis should not have its stagger component rendered invalid just because an enemy is affected by other animations at the time (and perhaps turn it into a PBAoE rather than a cone.) It could also modify the when-shields-are-available self-damage attack component into a %damage-to-enemy mechanic similar to Oberon's Smite, and have it scale to Valkyr's available shields at the time.
      • It's also important to note that this power in particular is incredibly redundant - it is easily replaced by ground slams in the game's current state with Melee 3.0. This is because Ground Finishers are more powerful than the Standing type, with many including a massive 1200% damage component or a guaranteed slash proc with the finisher multiplier. This makes ground slams scale dramatically better than Paralysis ever could hope to in endless-mode content. So whatever is decided upon should provide a proper incentive to use this power instead of a ground slam.
  • Convert her Warcry into a party-wide toggle with an AoE effect on enemies' speed (and turning Eternal War's bonus into a "grants X energy per kill while active" to keep the ability/mod's functionality identical, as I could see this working like Oberon's Renewal toggle where there is no outside way to get energy while this ability is active). Or at the very least remove the movement lock while it is being cast.
  • Give Hysteria a "single attack" component when doing a button Tap for an instant strong finisher-type melee attack, or Hold to swap to Hysteria mode as it currently operates. 

Other aspects of her functionality should remain intact; her base 700 armor provides some unique modding synergies, for example.

Here's another random idea -- what if Valkyr's abilities were expanded in function to deliberately trigger the Mercy state on enemies for Finishers, thereby giving her unique synergy with the Parazon mods?

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