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Adding a little balance in self damage (Because we know DE will not remove it....)


Kadesfy
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The Kuva Bramma, has revived the old discussion in warframe about the polemic self damage. we have already heared the reasons why this exist in game, To prevent this kinds of weapons to be like tonkor on its golden days.

Even If you are playing carefully, sometimes another player just jump or dash in front of you and BOOM! you're dead...

So... how do we turn this "nescessary" mechanic into something more forgiving? The self damage stays almost as it is, but with a little modification, it does not cause fatal damage on the "first" time.

That means if happens that you are in the blast radius, you take full damage but you dont die, you stays with 2 HP, if it happens again before you recover some HP, then you die.

Cautious shot still working as normal, that will give you more self hits before you get to the 2 HP mark.

Some of you might think "Well, now quick thinking will me the meta for this kind of weapons...". Well, for this there is another (optional) condition, you recieve full damage on life AND  energy, but you still dont die, staying with 0 energy and 2 HP. (But in my opnion, this stills far more punitive than it should be...)

 

Edited by Kadesfy
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1 minute ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

And then you die one second later to a stray bullet by a heavy gunner. How about just staying far away from the battlefield so you don't hit other players?

thats why the:

7 minutes ago, Kadesfy said:

(But in my opnion, this stills far more punitive than it should be...)

 

 

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Self-damage was always a discussion.
Personally self-damage should be a % of your current health instead of the total damage of the weapon. 
The Bramma could take 45%, the Ogris 40%, and the Lenz 60%...
If you you're close to the blast radius (depending on the weapon) will take a x amount of health/shield damage of the warframe, the closer you're the more damage you'll take.
Cautious shot instead of 99 percent reduction, would be X percent of the total damage that you can take. 
Lets take the Ogris damage: 40% (close to the blast radius) - 10% (far away of it), a max Cautious Shot mod will turn the percentage 10-5.
Idk if it is posible or not, but at least is not an instakill.

Also I don't count defensive abilities and armor of the frames because I don't know how could work.

Edited by ViperL1
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Just make it ragdoll the player.

ie, if you get hit by your own shot, your character will ragdoll and unable to fight, potentially making you vulnerable to enemy fire until you get back up. But it won't deal any damage.

(makes fun TASA interactions too 😉 )

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As a player, I love my self-damage weapons. I believe I have the skill to mitigate that high risk which just leaves me with the reward. While on one hand removing or neutering the efficacy of self-damage would only be a boon to the player in terms of their ability to clear rooms, it completely invalidates the weapon design, the need for the user to balance the risk with the reward. The risk is fun, I derive enjoyment from games when I succeed and not killing myself when I fire the Bramma is a small victory each time, it's glorious. If you don't enjoy self-damage weapons, don't use them, there are plenty of other ways to clear rooms. You're asking for a fundamental balance shift without actually shifting the balance - you even acknowledge that as "the golden days" with respect to the tonkor. How is someone that can and does work around self-damage supposed to interpret that request? Why are you asking for this change?

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3 hours ago, Kadesfy said:

The Kuva Bramma, has revived the old discussion in warframe about the polemic self damage. we have already heared the reasons why this exist in game, To prevent this kinds of weapons to be like tonkor on its golden days.

Even If you are playing carefully, sometimes another player just jump or dash in front of you and BOOM! you're dead...

So... how do we turn this "nescessary" mechanic into something more forgiving? The self damage stays almost as it is, but with a little modification, it does not cause fatal damage on the "first" time.

That means if happens that you are in the blast radius, you take full damage but you dont die, you stays with 2 HP, if it happens again before you recover some HP, then you die.

Cautious shot still working as normal, that will give you more self hits before you get to the 2 HP mark.

Some of you might think "Well, now quick thinking will me the meta for this kind of weapons...". Well, for this there is another (optional) condition, you recieve full damage on life AND  energy, but you still dont die, staying with 0 energy and 2 HP. (But in my opnion, this stills far more punitive than it should be...)

 

They should remove it. 

In other games self damage a) generally has a grey area between instant death and no damage. B) it's easier to avoid killing yourself because the pacing/structure, level design etc is different. 

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6 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

They should remove it. 

In other games self damage a) generally has a grey area between instant death and no damage. B) it's easier to avoid killing yourself because the pacing/structure, level design etc is different. 

Other games typically kill allies too, something DE chose not to be a thing, so I'm not even sure what's wrong with not having it at all.

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Is it really so hard for people to recognize that the wmd in their hands is capable of killing themselves if used carelessly and that it should be employed in a way that minimizes that risk? It isn't hard to position yourself at an angle/distance where enemies can't get in your face or where allies can't get in front of you accidentally.

 

However as far as adjusting what we currently have reducing the damage (even to say 50% max hp) you still open up most frames to getting one-shot immediately after which ultimately accomplishes little. While the suggestion of ragdolling would result in more frustrating deaths than instant detonation and would eat up more time than just hitting the revive button.

If this is such an issue then just make Cautious Shot an Exilus mod and call it a day. If people want to gimp their builds with it then let them and those who want ammo mutation with these weapons can use Carrier.

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I have had so many people just jump through me while I'm using the Bramma causing me to kill myself that I'm starting to think they do it on purpose, there's no way that I should be standing on top of a stack of crates out of the way firing my bow and someone comes into the room and bullet jumps directly through me right as I'm about to fire. 😆

For the most part though I don't die to often outside of those instances where a teammate directly causes my death, I've learned the range I can fire it without causing self harm and have learned tricks like firing at ceilings/walls behind enemies to kill them at a safe distance.

Edited by xcrimsonlegendx
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I think a Self Damage Tier System would be interesting and allow weapons some flavour.

The tiers of self damage applied to a weapon would limit how much % of health a single hit could do.

It would require a new stat in the arsenal.

example

  • Glaive
  • Self Damage                   10%

or

  • Lenz
  • Self Damage                   100%
Edited by Redfeather75
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Self-damage is a skill check on it's face, a teamplay check secondarily, and a luck check only peripherally.

If you treat the explosive weapon in your hands like it can actually kill you and remain aware of both your team and the enemy they work just fine.
If you ignore your team, you'll likely have the issue with friendlies jumping infront and through you as someone mentioned above. Yes, it really does look like some folks enjoy trying to time their shotblock just to kill you, because it happens WAY too often to be randon chance.
Sometimes, an enemy will use an AOE or other mechanic that detonates your projectile midair. it's a risk you take when you equip the weapon, but choosing NOT to shoot when an enemy that commonly does this is present is also part of skill and awareness. Sometimes you just get unlucky though.

There is quite a nice list of explosive non-self damage weapon available for those that want the BOOM without the bust, the AOE without the OW!!OE.The mechanic should stay in for those willing to engage it so I support DE leaving it in, and it's nice to see touches of it here and there still being implemented. It looks like the Bramma in particular may offer enough BOOM that it's a good balance to the risk, which has been kinda nerfed or designed out of the other weapons to avoid them becoming go-to OP.
Honestly, maybe a meta that required awareness and trigger control isn't such a bad thing. :devil:

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19 hours ago, 3rdpig said:

Put Shred on the Bramma and the problem with someone jumping in front of you, or a door closing in front of you, disappears. It's also fun, you can fire through doors and obstacles.

i foudn out something interesting about the Bramma in regards to this.  While controlling a Bramma arrow with Navigator it was behaving as if I had a punchthru mod on for some things.  So it seems that the Bramma has innate punchthru in a somewhat limited fashion.  That or it's a glitch.  😄  

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--- Intercepted Transmission ---

location: Kuva Fortress

Guardian 1: "so how are the Liches doing?"

Guardian 2: "below expectations, to say the least. the Tenno have the Requiems, it takes them time, but the liches are failing"

Guardian 1: I have an idea.. get the Armory of the Queens on the line, now.

*ring ring*

Lich Armorer: "yes?"

Guardian 1: I'd like to place a custom order for the next Sukkjekt, it needs to be a Bow and Arrow, with as much explosive as you can pack into the arrows. make them clusters as well, I don't care how much Detonite you need to use."

Lich Armorer: "understood. for the queens!"

*hang up*

Guardian 1: "if the Liches themselves cannot kill the Tenno, our weapons will. maybe their own stupidity will be their downfall instead!"

 

Edited by (PS4)robotwars7
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Self damage should just be canned tbh.  None of the weapons including the new Bramma would be so vastly superior that it would replace any other primary if it were to be removed.  You already balance explosion weapons with typically lower rate of fire, clip size, reload/ready times etc.  Having self damage on top of all of that is overkill and not enjoyable.  It feels like self damage is one of the many things out there that only exists to try to slow players down in a game that begs us to be swift and efficient.  It's as perplexing as it is annoying.

 

I was in love with both the lenz and the Zaar.  I never use either because the chance that i'll die once is a chance I will refuse to take.  The game is far too random to reliably not get killed by something out of my control.

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