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Triplinster

Lets talk about removal of exclusivity of Conclave Rewards

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*Rolls eye*

*Another #*!%ing PvE rando*

Haha I know feel. 

This time it’s coming from a long time PvP Vet and it’s mostly directed towards Conclave players and *only* conclave players.

If you’ve been following the public forums, community groups etc, you know Conclave is brought up negatively quite often. 
If you’ve been closely observing them from a long time or you know, watched *Cough Cough* I’m Coofing Rio *Coof* *Coof*

You know the reason my friend. If not, here’s a snippet from my doc on core issues

Spoiler

 

“When parkour 2.0 came out. DE had two directions it could take warframe. The one you see now (with PvE), and the other which utilizes this new parkour system combined with combat to utilize "combat mechanics" more to allow players to use more mechanical skill. Right now however it's heavily underutilized, but whatever.

From there, when DE developed "PvP 2.0/Conclave", they gave it a more "mechanical combat" approach which allowed players to utilize parkour and gun combat more, and it was only natural for this to happen as the opponents are much tougher and unpredictable, they're other players like me and you.

Also fun fact. Conclave/PvP 2.0 and Trials of retribution both came in the same update! I think U16 it was?. And Parkour 2.0 came after PvP 2.0.

But as time went on, PvP 2.0 at core stayed mainly the same, fully utilizing mechanical skill as always. But PvE on the other hand, it took the other path, like that of an MMORPG or something. It started to rely a bit less on mechanical skill and more on abilities and power creep weapons. And DE actively took this direction with PvE to cater to this new growing player base.

So now you had two game modes going else where, PvP going in a straight line, and PvE following this curve where at first you need to move around a bit, but casualization quickly kicks in as progression occurs, and accelerates with progression.

And there the divide started to happen. You now have PvE which heavily relies on gear, while on the other side you have PvP, which relies mainly on mechanical skill and much less on gear. So warframe's current player base (MR 16-25s) aren't very familiar with this change of environment. They didn't need to utilize parkour and gun combat as much, but now their mechanical skill is heavily tested.

They ask, how could this happen? were they not successful in  main game mode? I think the power fantasy and casualization made this happen. (According to their belief) And so the blame goes to the design of the game mode, how it itself is flawed and not them.

 


Main reason for the anti-pvp sentiment was, removal of Raids and now recently, post Unimed unrest.

You and I both know how both of it is BS

“DE magically requiring #*!% ton resources to keep plug on PvP that it hurts PvE argument” and “Conclave players deserve no exclusivity/compensation! Give give give pvp rewards!” and
 well other variants of Unimed unrest arguments like how we all conspire to guard our rewards over everything else and yadda yadda yadda.

I made a subreddit post on my views on Rewards Systems and stance on Unimed

It’s a really long post so TL:DR is:

Unimed link to Conclave Not Bad.Reward Exclusivity Not Bad.Person Talking about Unimed ≠ Conclave No Crucify.Focus on Actual Problem (Dysfunctional Reward stucture/system)Conclave could be fun for most, look links for more on that S#&$.Crucify Triplinster


Now, there was one paragraph in there that was directed towards PvP players, here it is

Spoiler

 

Before ending this part, I ask a question (maybe to PvP players), is it better to remove exclusive rewards, and replace them with PvE rewards/resources? Like, I know we rarely get stuff like Kuva or even Forma once in a blue moon (end of match reward)But do you think it's more healthier to focus on, getting PvE rewards in hands of players that enjoy PvP more? Maybe if exclusive rewards don't work out as well due to current circumstances, perhaps eliminating exclusivity (by putting current stuff in plat market oh and see end of Part 3 if you disagree) and compensating in PvE rewards might be better in the long run.

I think it would be helpful for new warframe players that love the combat/parkour mechanics, and prefer going the PvP route instead of grinding PvE. I have met such players, and they expressed frustration at going through PvE to get some gear for PvP, keeping PvE as a second objective for normal PvEr reasons.

 

Now, lets get to the bottom of it.


In the past I’ve been walking a fine line between completely vouching for removal of reward exclusivity and keeping current reward system with major tweaks.

I’ve said several times before, I as a long time PvP player, care only about the game mode and not the rewards. Most PvP regulars I’ve been around with share the same sentiment.

So that means whatever is beneficial for the mode, (Keep or removing exclusivity of rewards), we will vouch for.

Now why do I keep talking about “Exclusivity” too damn much? Well, unless you’ve been living in a outer space. You know the WF community (I differentiate them from WF playerbase) doesn’t really like PvP (and I mean, core mechanics PvP) being its own gamemode.

Most of the negative sentiment now (specially post Unimed unrest) is coming because of the exclusive rewards system. Yeah I know why cater to snowflakes yadda yadda yadda

I guess to them it feels like something mandatory. And yea I know how silly it sounds whine about a reward system rewarding for doing X task. Here’s my bit on it from the subreddit post just to let you know I understand it.

Spoiler

 

I will mention again, if "PvP" itself was improve-able by just trashing the reward system, I would be the first person to endorse it.

But the reality is, if you have a game mode, a "reward system", if implemented well, would only be beneficial.

And it seems logical to reward a player for playing the game mode.So what do you do? You add rewards to the game mode. In PvP's case we saw exclusive skins/cosmetics that were added by DE to honor the time invested in the game mode.

Now, this itself isn't really a bad thing. I feel like in overall discussion, this is made problematic (among other things but some of those are rightfully done so), and I think that's not helping with the real problem. I think the point I'm missing, is that, for some reason, even if a player doesn't play the game mode, that player is still (or should be) entitled to those rewards?

Well...? If that is the point, then what's the point of having exclusive rewards in the first place? Are exclusive rewards hence deemed bad?

Ok, "Remove rewards from conclave and give it to non-conclave players"

Well, then as developers, something should be there to fill the "reward". You have a game mode that's completely different in atmosphere and feel, requires a different set of skills, something should be there to honor that?

Ok then we put other set of rewards.

"No No give this to us as well". What remains? (I hope you don't get lost here)

My point is, I don't think attacking exclusivity should be focus (I don't vouch for it too), or devaluing rewards by handing them out, but to focus on what I think, is fixing the path to getting those rewards. And I don't think the person asking for Unimed unlink should be crucified for it, even though I disagree with him on it. But instead the discussion should be more about the actual problems.

 

I will also link a forum post on Rewards, where I tilted more towards keeping Reward system as is but majorly tweaking the effort to reward ratio to make it easier

So now, I’m in a position where I think we should vouch for removal of exclusivity. And hear me out, why do I think it’s beneficial at all?

Conclave will not feel “mandatory” to these people. It’ll be one less argument for being anti-pvp. The crazy bunch will be filtered out from the slightly sane bunch, and It’ll help negate the hive mind effect in the WF community.


And maybe then, DE will feel less weight when doing anything PvP content related. There is nothing to lose if you just experiment with a game mode that isn’t linked to a sense of progression (and no, not progression for us, I mean what the WF community thinks is progression). There would be less weight in bashing DE for working on PvP.

DE would just work on PvP if they feel like it, we’ll still be there providing feedback. And no one can force DE on what to do or not to do with their creative free time.

If these barriers are broken, The Conclave Experiment might ascend into something more, maybe even a thing of its own.

So these are my thoughts on this whole exclusivity thing. As you can see, I’ve tilted more towards removal of exclusivity but I still value the other side of keeping rewards but making them take less effort. So I want to here your thoughts.

Should we all unite to vouch for removal of exclusivity? I think so, and maybe just give a badge or statraks to PvP players. Or not.

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i feel like you had about 90% less to say than you wrote, but because that 90% is there you basically lost me, i tried to pick out some things that i think are your main talking points / your actual subjects, but i don't know if i missed things because this is just all over the place.

making Conclave 'not mandatory' if we decide that it is currently, that won't change anything. and how does that add more to the game anyways. as i have said no shortage of times, since Conclave could house competitive Gameplay that isn't directly PvP but still competitive, there's content that could be created to fill that part of the game that... lets Marketing parade around to try and attract Players, lets them have something to sell for the work of doing something to the game done, Et Cetera.

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44 minutes ago, Triplinster said:

If you’ve been following the public forums, community groups etc, you know Conclave is brought up negatively quite often. 

 

44 minutes ago, Triplinster said:

*Another #*!%ing PvE rando*

I wonder why...

 

As long as there are issues with lack of dedicated servers and questionable balance, pvp will stay unpopular. As the post above said, removing exclusive rewards won't change anything. Maybe even the opposite, fewer people will play because there will be no reason to play.

The most fun I had in conclave was when they introduced modes with disabled abilities, where everyone had the same stats and weapons. If DE built conclave around this idea, then maybe I would consider it worthwhile.

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This is not a mega thread so please remove the tag.  That tag should only be used by DE/Mod staff when they merge a number of existing threads or want to preemptively consolidate feedback for a newly released feature.

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55 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i feel like you had about 90% less to say than you wrote, but because that 90% is there you basically lost me, i tried to pick out some things that i think are your main talking points / your actual subjects, but i don't know if i missed things because this is just all over the place.

I assumed that I'm talking directly to PvP regulars when I made this post as only they understand where I'm coming from, but yea it could also be the result of me trying to type out my thoughts.

58 minutes ago, taiiat said:

since Conclave could house competitive Gameplay that isn't directly PvP but still competitive, there's content that could be created to fill that part of the game that... lets Marketing parade around to try and attract Players, lets them have something to sell for the work of doing something to the game done, Et Cetera.

Isn't "Directly PvP" is where you and I differ. If you want another PvP mode that's indirect, that's absolutely cool.
But my whole post is about actual pvp with core game mechanics, like gun combat and parkour.

 

25 minutes ago, Genitive said:

As long as there are issues with lack of dedicated servers and questionable balance, pvp will stay unpopular.

It's not like we have to choose between those two things. I have a doc on the stuff we could work on if you wanna take a look.

 

27 minutes ago, Genitive said:

As the post above said, removing exclusive rewards won't change anything. Maybe even the opposite, fewer people will play because there will be no reason to play.

Well, I don't know exactly. I really want to know the opinion of the pvp regular. As most people I'm around with and play with have very similar opinion as mine.

 

29 minutes ago, Genitive said:

The most fun I had in conclave was when they introduced modes with disabled abilities, where everyone had the same stats and weapons. If DE built conclave around this idea, then maybe I would consider it worthwhile.

Yea, me too. Loved paris only valentines day mode. But now wonder. Why didn't they come back? They did hand out the rewards to us, what possible reason there could be to not bring them every year?
 

 

26 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

This is not a mega thread so please remove the tag.  That tag should only be used by DE/Mod staff when they merge a number of existing threads or want to preemptively consolidate feedback for a newly released feature.

Sorry about that, removed the tag. I was able to use it so I thought it must be ok. I consider this to be a pretty big topic. My bad.

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29 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

This is not a mega thread so please remove the tag.  That tag should only be used by DE/Mod staff when they merge a number of existing threads or want to preemptively consolidate feedback for a newly released feature.

Why this tag option is still available to regular users is beyond me.

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31 minutes ago, Genitive said:

 

As long as there are issues with lack of dedicated servers and questionable balance, pvp will stay unpopular. As the post above said, removing exclusive rewards won't change anything. Maybe even the opposite, fewer people will play because there will be no reason to play.

 

Mainly the point with exclusive rewards was brought up here, because of the "flex" value people percieve toxic. On many different occasions across the time i played conclave i seen comments pointing this out, since it creates "elitism" and all the things ranging from comments of "you want the rewards? Get gud lol" which some people bring up as well, up to the problem of farming lobbies, which players attending to them doesn't even want to put work in playing for real. They just want the rewards and "be done with this grind" as they don't perceive it as any challenge. Getting rewards like skins out would provide less incentive for farmers, which aren't and never was considered real conclave players, most of it was fodder for statistics, however terrible it might sound, but it is true if you look at it honestly.

Triplinster is a veteran, and veterans will still be playing regardless of removal of said rewards.

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25 minutes ago, Triplinster said:

Isn't "Directly PvP" is where you and I differ. If you want another PvP mode that's indirect, that's absolutely cool.
But my whole post is about actual pvp with core game mechanics, like gun combat and parkour.

the point
was
that making an 'indirect PvP' and housing it in Conclave is adding something new and creates the opportunity to have things to sell, which means while it can also solve the 'problem' (by having a non direct PvP way to use Conclave) of people not being able to acquire this or that Skin without playing Conclave.

i.e.
doing it that way lets them achieve the same goal but be able to make money doing it, instead of not making any money doing it. a Business wants to do things that make money before doing things that do not make money, after all.
so if a solution to __ includes a way to make more money, it's guaranteed to be higher priority than if not.

Edited by taiiat

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15 minutes ago, Neuroszima said:

Mainly the point with exclusive rewards was brought up here, because of the "flex" value people percieve toxic. On many different occasions across the time i played conclave i seen comments pointing this out, since it creates "elitism" and all the things ranging from comments of "you want the rewards? Get gud lol" which some people bring up as well, up to the problem of farming lobbies, which players attending to them doesn't even want to put work in playing for real. They just want the rewards and "be done with this grind" as they don't perceive it as any challenge. Getting rewards like skins out would provide less incentive for farmers, which aren't and never was considered real conclave players, most of it was fodder for statistics, however terrible it might sound, but it is true if you look at it honestly.

Triplinster is a veteran, and veterans will still be playing regardless of removal of said rewards.

Yeah, that's a good point. I didn't think about it like this.

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37 minutes ago, Neuroszima said:

Mainly the point with exclusive rewards was brought up here, because of the "flex" value people percieve toxic. On many different occasions across the time i played conclave i seen comments pointing this out, since it creates "elitism" and all the things ranging from comments of "you want the rewards? Get gud lol" which some people bring up as well, up to the problem of farming lobbies, which players attending to them doesn't even want to put work in playing for real. They just want the rewards and "be done with this grind" as they don't perceive it as any challenge. Getting rewards like skins out would provide less incentive for farmers, which aren't and never was considered real conclave players, most of it was fodder for statistics, however terrible it might sound, but it is true if you look at it honestly.

Triplinster is a veteran, and veterans will still be playing regardless of removal of said rewards.

This. The reason why i agree on removing the rewards is because conclave is filled with people who don't actually like playing conclave at all and are there just to grind the rewards. And in order to waste the less time possible in this boring activity they use broken weapons and stuff. If you remove the rewards you both don't give a reason to these players to play pvp if they don't want to, and let conclave players enjoy playing in public lobbies as well.

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12 hours ago, taiiat said:

the point
was
that making an 'indirect PvP' and housing it in Conclave is adding something new and creates the opportunity to have things to sell, which means while it can also solve the 'problem' (by having a non direct PvP way to use Conclave) of people not being able to acquire this or that Skin without playing Conclave.

i.e.
doing it that way lets them achieve the same goal but be able to make money doing it, instead of not making any money doing it. a Business wants to do things that make money before doing things that do not make money, after all.
so if a solution to __ includes a way to make more money, it's guaranteed to be higher priority than if not.

Thats your point, but not the theme the author's thread is about yet.

As far as I could follow he tries to get into a discussion with the regular pvp players to create a consensus what the actually playing pvp community's thoughts about the rewards are. Which in the end DE could use as some sort of agreement or to lighten the hardship on the mind that a decision like removing the exclusity of rewards can bring. 

As far as I dare to guess the post was made as a help to get things moving again, you gotta start somewhere.

But a pvx mode can be a valid option to execute the removal of the pvp rewards exclusity. 

A good example for such a pvx mode would be this: "The Proving Ground" suggestion from @sanghije

 

Edited by Loxyen
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11 minutes ago, mario410 said:

This. The reason why i agree on removing the rewards is because conclave is filled with people who don't actually like playing conclave at all and are there just to grind the rewards. And in order to waste the less time possible in this boring activity they use broken weapons and stuff. If you remove the rewards you both don't give a reason to these players to play pvp if they don't want to, and let conclave players enjoy playing in public lobbies as well.

yes and they ruin experience for me, that actually want to try this as a challenge

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They will gladly grab those skins and continue to S#&$ all over your head @Triplinster . This does not solve players' attitude towards Konk community, neither gives DE any incentive to continue work on the game mode. Oh well, but there gonna be less confused flakes stuck in between muzzles of pro-grandpas.

But hey, at least I can boast my conclave rewards.

Edited by Miyabi-sama
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We'd still have players trying hard and finding the best possible gear to fight against other players with, regardless of how many rewards they get for it. Heck, I would still be one of those players, because that's how I enjoy playing, and I also highly enjoy playing against people who are doing the same. The only reasons I'm not constantly using some of my favorite weapons like Telos Boltace, Staticor, and Wolf Sledge is because I want the skill I gain to matter after expected changes, and that I sometimes want to play without people complaining or resorting to stuff like teaming. (Which still happens a lot when I'm using stuff like Dera Vandal, Akstiletto, and Broken Scepter.)

There's no getting rid of people's motivation to try hard, and I think that's perfectly fine. What can be gotten rid of is the general problem with trying hard, which is just OP gear. There's a huge difference between someone using stuff like Staticor or Telos Boltace for optimal performance and someone using stuff like Karak or Lex for optimal performance.

On top of that, most problematic players seem to not play for rewards. Many players who like to constantly use Telos Boltace, other weapons like that, and team up on other people have 50k+ kills. Some have even 100k plus. They probably could've gotten every single thing Teshin sells at least twice over, much more if only the stuff that would be usable in PvE. That's partly an issue with moderation, but my point is that these sorts of players won't be gotten rid of. The best thing that can be done is to balance the game so that they're not individually a problem, and then the sorts of unfair play that's outside of game balance is not only more manageable by players, but also the only remaining major issue, which can then be handled accordingly.

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Wouldn't mind the exclusivity of cosmetics being removed, however, i also think that with the amount of different stuff to grind in warframe all content that expects to be played need to offer "something" to the player in terms of rewards or other than the fun to be had it will stay in its current state of being "a waste of time" for the player due to the lack of progression.

Imo, DE can do whatever with the skins (if the exclusivity gets removed they should improve their texture works and could even create some more following the same aesthetics with no fear of PvE players screeching at them because of it), but in exchange it should be made lucrative somewhere else and give it useful rewards like:

>Forma BP (already available in many other PvE places)

>Catalyst/Reactor BP (crafted ones already available through the Nightwave shop anyways)

>A single use consumable item that allows the player to get 1 nightwave challenge done with a standing cost that varies depending of the NW challenge tier.

>Make him offer caches of any resource available where cost and quantity depend of the resource's rarity (this includes credits because why not)

>Make him accept AND also sell Universal medallions so anyone can get a piece of his rewards while he also allows players who focus on conclave to progress on other syndicates. 

The list could go on and on (these are just examples and not all of them might be good to add at once or in the same place) but i guess the intention is clear: make conclave meaningful to the rest of the game's economy, it would be a lot better than keeping it with the current one-and-done cosmetic rewards that could be sold for 1 credit in the market for all i care.

This way PvE players can get access to their "Fashionframe" and a new player who wants to focus solely on PvP can do it without going through a mind numbing PvE experience to progress (which is the reason why many PvP focused players who come to wf end up leaving it regardless of how much they like warframe's pace and mobility).

Edited by Stormdragon
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The Conclave needs to keep its rewards as a means of basic drive/goal for players to go after. However, to have alternative routes of acquiring some of these rewards should be allowed to thin the heard of players who are clearly not interested in Conclave. The only reward that should be exclusive to Conclave should be the Celestial Syndana since it is a symbol of active Conclave participation for those who enjoy the game mode, as well as its functionality is directly tied to Conclave (i.e. Daily and Weekly challenge completion). 

Vendors such as Ticker, Baro Ki'teer, and Nakak should be new alternatives of distributing Conclave Weapon skins and Armor sets (again, this is excluding the Celestial Syndana). This will breath some life back into those Vendors for a short period of time while also helping alleviate players resentment against being "required" to play Conclave for those items. Allowing players to spend their resources to their respective vendors (i.e. Bonds, Ducats, and Ostron Rep).

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The Conclave Syndicate progress should also go through a change, it should reflect similarly to Nakak's Event Vending menu. Allowing all players to acquire any item at any point of progression as long as they have the reputation to redeem that item. This will remedy the hard grind wall that is the Syndicate System. Rep gain will be a hard deciding factor to the ease of doing acquiring these rewards, let it be through its current daily cap or being further more changed to reflect Nakak's Event Vending. 

Image result for Warframe Nakak Event

As for bridging the gap with a PvEvP game mode, many have been proposed through out the years showing a clear interest from some parts of the community. I've even given the idea a fair shot of my own version of something that properly melds together both established worlds of Warframe into something meaningful and fulfilling in terms of roles to play and progression for a majority of players. 

 

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11 hours ago, taiiat said:

the point
was
that making an 'indirect PvP' and housing it in Conclave is adding something new and creates the opportunity to have things to sell, which means while it can also solve the 'problem' (by having a non direct PvP way to use Conclave) of people not being able to acquire this or that Skin without playing Conclave.

I get you now. Well it sure helps in untying rewards to core PvP.

10 hours ago, Loxyen said:

As far as I could follow he tries to get into a discussion with the regular pvp players to create a consensus what the actually playing pvp community's thoughts about the rewards are. Which in the end DE could use as some sort of agreement or to lighten the hardship on the mind that a decision like removing the exclusity of rewards can bring. 

As far as I dare to guess the post was made as a help to get things moving again, you gotta start somewhere.

Yes.

 

5 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

This way PvE players can get access to their "Fashionframe" and a new player who wants to focus solely on PvP can do it without going through a mind numbing PvE experience to progress (which is the reason why many PvP focused players who come to wf end up leaving it regardless of how much they like warframe's pace and mobility).

I'm all for it. I realize that I may have come across as completely anti rewards. But I'm actually really talking about "Exclusive" rewards at core. I support having alternative way of obtaining PvE stuff for PvP players like you.

39 minutes ago, sanghije said:

The only reward that should be exclusive to Conclave should be the Celestial Syndana since it is a symbol of active Conclave participation for those who enjoy the game mode, as well as its functionality is directly tied to Conclave (i.e. Daily and Weekly challenge completion). 

Well, I was thinking more about something you just see in the profile. Badges? Maybe.
 

41 minutes ago, sanghije said:

The Conclave Syndicate progress should also go through a change, it should reflect similarly to Nakak's Event Vending menu. Allowing all players to acquire any item at any point of progression as long as they have the reputation to redeem that item. This will remedy the hard grind wall that is the Syndicate System. Rep gain will be a hard deciding factor to the ease of doing acquiring these rewards, let it be through its current daily cap or being further more changed to reflect Nakak's Event Vending. 

Yes to making it easier.

 

42 minutes ago, sanghije said:

As for bridging the gap with a PvEvP game mode, many have been proposed through out the years showing a clear interest from some parts of the community. I've even given the idea a fair shot of my own version of something that properly melds together both established worlds of Warframe into something meaningful and fulfilling in terms of roles to play and progression for a majority of players.

Sort of what @taiiat was talking about. I will take a look.

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11 hours ago, Loxyen said:

As far as I could follow he tries to get into a discussion with the regular pvp players to create a consensus what the actually playing pvp community's thoughts about the rewards are. Which in the end DE could use as some sort of agreement or to lighten the hardship on the mind that a decision like removing the exclusity of rewards can bring. 

and i'm being realistic about what sort of style would be likely to actually be beneficial for a Business to do, and so, likely to actually do, at all.

11 minutes ago, Triplinster said:

I get you now. Well it sure helps in untying rewards to core PvP.

an important sub point of that is such alternatives absolutely must not be "Conclave but with Bots", as that's not something new enough to be able to have something to sell.

Competitive but not directly PvP can take so many forms, from taking a thought about Leaderboards in Events to Speedrunning to overcoming extreme adversity, Et Cetera. so many ways to be non directly Competitive.

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On 2020-02-13 at 6:05 PM, taiiat said:

Competitive but not directly PvP can take so many forms, from taking a thought about Leaderboards in Events to Speedrunning to overcoming extreme adversity, Et Cetera. so many ways to be non directly Competitive.

And all of them can be cheesed with any number of strategies that make content trivial. Competitive PvE just does not work in Warframe. It's like having a competition wherein it measures whoever can smash the vase with a sledgehammer the fastest. There isn't a challenge.

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46 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

And all of them can be cheesed with any number of strategies that make content trivial.

nothing even remotely competitive in the past has been made for the purpose of offering competitive type Gameplay.
just because the first Lightbulb you make doesn't work, doesn't mean that a Lightbulb isn't useful.

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