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Authoritycat

How To Fix Self Damage - SELF DAMAGE REWORK

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I have always been anti-self-damage in Warframe, but a recent discussion on Reddit opened my eyes a little. Self damage can be a good thing, but three important things need to change first:

 

1. Damage Cap

The current self damage scaling means you are bound to kill yourself. The problem isn't that you can kill yourself, but rather that you WILL kill yourself with self damage outside of a few specific frames. Even some very defensive frames, specifically defensive casters like Saryn for example, cannot survive the explosions. It is OK if Ivara dies in on explosion. It is not OK if Nezha dies in one explosion. Capped damage means each explosive weapon can have damage based on its effectiveness. 50 flat damage would put some frames in the red after a couple mistakes. 150 would be a death sentence to some, but frames that are made to survive would be able to shrug off this damage like they realistically should be able to. 

 

2. Consistency

Self damage is not consistent and is therefore not immersive (and therefore not fun). There are many weapons that should have self damage but do not. Self damage needs a full rework so we can clearly understand exactly what self damage 'is'. I think one good concept would be to just make self damage and blast damage the same thing. Anything that deals AOE blast damage (including blast procs) should deal self damage (Add capped blast proc damage to self damage on innate self damage weapons). This way there is a sense that explosion=can hurt you, so it is much more acceptable when it happens. To make it balanced, and to generally increase the effectiveness of the blast status, just let blast cause explosions anywhere, not just on contact with enemies (gas should work this way too, maybe even electricity?). By modifying blast damage and adding innate self damage to every weapon that should have it, most of the issues with self damage would be solved (assuming the other two changes are also implemented). 

 

3. Eliminate Friendly Fire

Other players having hitboxes we can interact with is a mistake and should be removed for all weapons. This is especially important when considering self damage. There is a certain level of predictability to enemy movement and world geometry, but that goes out of the window when you consider other players. Hitting another player with a self damage weapon (resulting in death, or damage after this proposed rework) is not fair and is therefor not fun. This goes for other weapons too. Players should never block your line of sight outside of some theoretical hardcore mode where we can damage each other. 

 

In review, I REALLY think you guys should rework self damage. Hell, make a whole update out of it! I had an idea where you could add in another weapon slot for grenades, kind of like in the original Mass Effect. These would be a purely self-damage weapon type that could be modified with various elements and would have very limited uses outside of ammo refills. This could be the "meat" that would be a decent excuse to make an entire update out of fixing self damage. Please closely consider what I said here. I do not take ownership over most of these ideas as most of them came from this Reddit discussion:

 

 

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Just had the idea to remove self damage projectiles interacting with allies myself, then I see your list. Agree fully, except for maybe the damage cap.

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Am 14.2.2020 um 16:35 schrieb Authoritycat:

1. Damage Cap

The current self damage scaling means you are bound to kill yourself. The problem isn't that you can kill yourself, but rather that you WILL kill yourself with self damage outside of a few specific frames. Even some very defensive frames, specifically defensive casters like Saryn for example, cannot survive the explosions. It is OK if Ivara dies in on explosion. It is not OK if Nezha dies in one explosion. Capped damage means each explosive weapon can have damage based on its effectiveness. 50 flat damage would put some frames in the red after a couple mistakes. 150 would be a death sentence to some, but frames that are made to survive would be able to shrug off this damage like they realistically should be able to. 

I agree with you. But not for the amount of just 150. After this diagram not even Loki would die from this.

6IhcYiN.jpg

(Man I love this diagram)

I would suggest that the flat damage should be around 750. (depends on the weapon. 750 for Ogris would be okay. Staticor would need maybe just 250 because of the high Firerate.)

Am 14.2.2020 um 16:35 schrieb Authoritycat:

2. Consistency

Self damage is not consistent and is therefore not immersive (and therefore not fun). There are many weapons that should have self damage but do not. Self damage needs a full rework so we can clearly understand exactly what self damage 'is'. I think one good concept would be to just make self damage and blast damage the same thing. Anything that deals AOE blast damage (including blast procs) should deal self damage (Add capped blast proc damage to self damage on innate self damage weapons). This way there is a sense that explosion=can hurt you, so it is much more acceptable when it happens. To make it balanced, and to generally increase the effectiveness of the blast status, just let blast cause explosions anywhere, not just on contact with enemies (gas should work this way too, maybe even electricity?). By modifying blast damage and adding innate self damage to every weapon that should have it, most of the issues with self damage would be solved (assuming the other two changes are also implemented). 

Agree, but please not electricity. Not that it wouldn't make sense, but there is no game in the world, where you can kill yourself with your own electric type weapon.^^

Am 14.2.2020 um 16:35 schrieb Authoritycat:

3. Eliminate Friendly Fire

Other players having hitboxes we can interact with is a mistake and should be removed for all weapons. This is especially important when considering self damage. There is a certain level of predictability to enemy movement and world geometry, but that goes out of the window when you consider other players. Hitting another player with a self damage weapon (resulting in death, or damage after this proposed rework) is not fair and is therefor not fun. This goes for other weapons too. Players should never block your line of sight outside of some theoretical hardcore mode where we can damage each other. 

Thank you. Thank you very much for understanding the real problem.

My Hero GIF by memecandy

Am 14.2.2020 um 16:35 schrieb Authoritycat:

 

 

What is my Kuva Orgis doing I here? She is to beautiful for this place.😥😥😥

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What makes it even less consistent is, that some weapons like the Acceltra or the Tonkor / Kuva Tonkor have an arming distance. So as long as you don´t jump into your own shots, you are pretty safe. Weapons like the Kuva Ogris, Bramma etc. on the other hand will launch you into space if you accidentially hit a friendly target or even an enemie corpse that comes flying at you. Happened to me way too often... In the heat of a battle, especially when team mates also use explosives, corpses are flying around everywhere. If you hit one, you´re dead.

It makes not much sense that some frame´s abilities will protect you, while others don´t that should. Revenant´s mesmer skin will cause your hp to go down to 2 - but neither Nezha´s 3 nor Mesa´s 3 is able to prevent the huge amount of damage, often even WITH cautious shot equipped.

The problem here is that enemies have hp in the ten thousands or more, while we have only one frame, Inaros, which can get somehow close to that. So our weapons also deal ten thousands of dmg or even way more with one hit - and that´s a death sentance for most frames and defensive abilities.

My solution would be to simply apply a strong below 1 multiplier to self damage, for example a 0.05x multiplier. This way cautious shot would cause an explosion to tickle your hp, while you still get a severe but not fatal hit from a direct ogris or bramma hit. The self inflicted status effects could still kill you, but there´s at least a chance to survive it.

Edited by IamLoco
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