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How To Fix Self Damage - SELF DAMAGE REWORK


Authoritycat
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I have always been anti-self-damage in Warframe, but a recent discussion on Reddit opened my eyes a little. Self damage can be a good thing, but three important things need to change first:

 

1. Damage Cap

The current self damage scaling means you are bound to kill yourself. The problem isn't that you can kill yourself, but rather that you WILL kill yourself with self damage outside of a few specific frames. Even some very defensive frames, specifically defensive casters like Saryn for example, cannot survive the explosions. It is OK if Ivara dies in on explosion. It is not OK if Nezha dies in one explosion. Capped damage means each explosive weapon can have damage based on its effectiveness. 50 flat damage would put some frames in the red after a couple mistakes. 150 would be a death sentence to some, but frames that are made to survive would be able to shrug off this damage like they realistically should be able to. 

 

2. Consistency

Self damage is not consistent and is therefore not immersive (and therefore not fun). There are many weapons that should have self damage but do not. Self damage needs a full rework so we can clearly understand exactly what self damage 'is'. I think one good concept would be to just make self damage and blast damage the same thing. Anything that deals AOE blast damage (including blast procs) should deal self damage (Add capped blast proc damage to self damage on innate self damage weapons). This way there is a sense that explosion=can hurt you, so it is much more acceptable when it happens. To make it balanced, and to generally increase the effectiveness of the blast status, just let blast cause explosions anywhere, not just on contact with enemies (gas should work this way too, maybe even electricity?). By modifying blast damage and adding innate self damage to every weapon that should have it, most of the issues with self damage would be solved (assuming the other two changes are also implemented). 

 

3. Eliminate Friendly Fire

Other players having hitboxes we can interact with is a mistake and should be removed for all weapons. This is especially important when considering self damage. There is a certain level of predictability to enemy movement and world geometry, but that goes out of the window when you consider other players. Hitting another player with a self damage weapon (resulting in death, or damage after this proposed rework) is not fair and is therefor not fun. This goes for other weapons too. Players should never block your line of sight outside of some theoretical hardcore mode where we can damage each other. 

 

In review, I REALLY think you guys should rework self damage. Hell, make a whole update out of it! I had an idea where you could add in another weapon slot for grenades, kind of like in the original Mass Effect. These would be a purely self-damage weapon type that could be modified with various elements and would have very limited uses outside of ammo refills. This could be the "meat" that would be a decent excuse to make an entire update out of fixing self damage. Please closely consider what I said here. I do not take ownership over most of these ideas as most of them came from this Reddit discussion:

 

 

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Am 14.2.2020 um 16:35 schrieb Authoritycat:

1. Damage Cap

The current self damage scaling means you are bound to kill yourself. The problem isn't that you can kill yourself, but rather that you WILL kill yourself with self damage outside of a few specific frames. Even some very defensive frames, specifically defensive casters like Saryn for example, cannot survive the explosions. It is OK if Ivara dies in on explosion. It is not OK if Nezha dies in one explosion. Capped damage means each explosive weapon can have damage based on its effectiveness. 50 flat damage would put some frames in the red after a couple mistakes. 150 would be a death sentence to some, but frames that are made to survive would be able to shrug off this damage like they realistically should be able to. 

I agree with you. But not for the amount of just 150. After this diagram not even Loki would die from this.

6IhcYiN.jpg

(Man I love this diagram)

I would suggest that the flat damage should be around 750. (depends on the weapon. 750 for Ogris would be okay. Staticor would need maybe just 250 because of the high Firerate.)

Am 14.2.2020 um 16:35 schrieb Authoritycat:

2. Consistency

Self damage is not consistent and is therefore not immersive (and therefore not fun). There are many weapons that should have self damage but do not. Self damage needs a full rework so we can clearly understand exactly what self damage 'is'. I think one good concept would be to just make self damage and blast damage the same thing. Anything that deals AOE blast damage (including blast procs) should deal self damage (Add capped blast proc damage to self damage on innate self damage weapons). This way there is a sense that explosion=can hurt you, so it is much more acceptable when it happens. To make it balanced, and to generally increase the effectiveness of the blast status, just let blast cause explosions anywhere, not just on contact with enemies (gas should work this way too, maybe even electricity?). By modifying blast damage and adding innate self damage to every weapon that should have it, most of the issues with self damage would be solved (assuming the other two changes are also implemented). 

Agree, but please not electricity. Not that it wouldn't make sense, but there is no game in the world, where you can kill yourself with your own electric type weapon.^^

Am 14.2.2020 um 16:35 schrieb Authoritycat:

3. Eliminate Friendly Fire

Other players having hitboxes we can interact with is a mistake and should be removed for all weapons. This is especially important when considering self damage. There is a certain level of predictability to enemy movement and world geometry, but that goes out of the window when you consider other players. Hitting another player with a self damage weapon (resulting in death, or damage after this proposed rework) is not fair and is therefor not fun. This goes for other weapons too. Players should never block your line of sight outside of some theoretical hardcore mode where we can damage each other. 

Thank you. Thank you very much for understanding the real problem.

My Hero GIF by memecandy

Am 14.2.2020 um 16:35 schrieb Authoritycat:

 

 

What is my Kuva Orgis doing I here? She is to beautiful for this place.😥😥😥

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What makes it even less consistent is, that some weapons like the Acceltra or the Tonkor / Kuva Tonkor have an arming distance. So as long as you don´t jump into your own shots, you are pretty safe. Weapons like the Kuva Ogris, Bramma etc. on the other hand will launch you into space if you accidentially hit a friendly target or even an enemie corpse that comes flying at you. Happened to me way too often... In the heat of a battle, especially when team mates also use explosives, corpses are flying around everywhere. If you hit one, you´re dead.

It makes not much sense that some frame´s abilities will protect you, while others don´t that should. Revenant´s mesmer skin will cause your hp to go down to 2 - but neither Nezha´s 3 nor Mesa´s 3 is able to prevent the huge amount of damage, often even WITH cautious shot equipped.

The problem here is that enemies have hp in the ten thousands or more, while we have only one frame, Inaros, which can get somehow close to that. So our weapons also deal ten thousands of dmg or even way more with one hit - and that´s a death sentance for most frames and defensive abilities.

My solution would be to simply apply a strong below 1 multiplier to self damage, for example a 0.05x multiplier. This way cautious shot would cause an explosion to tickle your hp, while you still get a severe but not fatal hit from a direct ogris or bramma hit. The self inflicted status effects could still kill you, but there´s at least a chance to survive it.

Edited by IamLoco
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On 2020-02-15 at 11:43 AM, ES-Flinter said:

I agree with you. But not for the amount of just 150. After this diagram not even Loki would die from this.

6IhcYiN.jpg

(Man I love this diagram)

I would suggest that the flat damage should be around 750. (depends on the weapon. 750 for Ogris would be okay. Staticor would need maybe just 250 because of the high Firerate.)

Agree, but please not electricity. Not that it wouldn't make sense, but there is no game in the world, where you can kill yourself with your own electric type weapon.^^

Thank you. Thank you very much for understanding the real problem.

My Hero GIF by memecandy

What is my Kuva Orgis doing I here? She is to beautiful for this place.😥😥😥

Yeah I low balled the damage you're totally right. It does depend a lot on the weapon too as you said! Like if they made blast damage into self damage like I mentioned, it would have to be lower seeing as the weapons it can be used on. This can actually already be seen in action on the Zhuge Prime! When I said 150 I forgot shields exist lol. Certain weapons could be up higher, like 700 - 1000 so most frames get one shot, while some weapons should allow even the weakest frames to survive multiple hits. 

 

As for the electricity, I meant it BEHAVING like my proposed blast damage change, wherein you don't have to "hit" an enemy for the proc to happen, so you can put electric procs on the ground around enemies. Maybe it could hurt operators though 🙂 Warframes seems pretty electric resistant to me lol 

Edited by Authoritycat
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On 2020-02-17 at 3:18 AM, IamLoco said:

What makes it even less consistent is, that some weapons like the Acceltra or the Tonkor / Kuva Tonkor have an arming distance. So as long as you don´t jump into your own shots, you are pretty safe. Weapons like the Kuva Ogris, Bramma etc. on the other hand will launch you into space if you accidentially hit a friendly target or even an enemie corpse that comes flying at you. Happened to me way too often... In the heat of a battle, especially when team mates also use explosives, corpses are flying around everywhere. If you hit one, you´re dead.

It makes not much sense that some frame´s abilities will protect you, while others don´t that should. Revenant´s mesmer skin will cause your hp to go down to 2 - but neither Nezha´s 3 nor Mesa´s 3 is able to prevent the huge amount of damage, often even WITH cautious shot equipped.

The problem here is that enemies have hp in the ten thousands or more, while we have only one frame, Inaros, which can get somehow close to that. So our weapons also deal ten thousands of dmg or even way more with one hit - and that´s a death sentance for most frames and defensive abilities.

My solution would be to simply apply a strong below 1 multiplier to self damage, for example a 0.05x multiplier. This way cautious shot would cause an explosion to tickle your hp, while you still get a severe but not fatal hit from a direct ogris or bramma hit. The self inflicted status effects could still kill you, but there´s at least a chance to survive it.

Seems solid. I still think the flat damage idea is better though, since it's easier to maintain. If damage output is ever modified at all, then that .05% damage may once again be too much. With flat damage, there is less balancing that needs to happen, and each weapon can be investigated individually. Even with flat damage, arming distance and cautious shot still have their place, but wouldn't be necessary for a weapon to be comfortable. If anything cautious slot would be actually pretty cool because currently it's kind of a waste of slot. If it negated almost all damage (because less damage in general), then that would be a thing people would build around with squishier frames. Arming distance isn't as useful (even now) but it's such a  fun gimmick that it doesn't really matter, and people who like it really like it. 

Honestly everything is already in place for most of these changes, DE just needs to implement them. 

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In lieu of a damage cap, I wonder if self-damage applying status (ragdoll, knockdown, or whatever else) would work better. The wide EHP range in Warframes and the various healing abilities probably make it quite difficult to say a given damage number is balanced—what tickles Inaros one-shots Loki. Getting flung around, on the other hand, is more equally detrimental. At minimum, it hinders DPS. Worst-case, one lands between two Nox Eximus units just as Invisibility runs out.

I'd also say it's more fun. If you blow up and die, that's kind of it. If you're flung across the room, there's an "oh crap" moment and the possibility—but not guarantee—of death shortly thereafter. Also, who doesn't like Tenno space programs?

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vor 23 Minuten schrieb Tyreaus:

I wonder if self-damage applying status (ragdoll, knockdown, or whatever else) would work better.

Theoretically yes. Practically not. Main problem would be, that invisibility frames, can risk in 9 of 10 times their lives without any consequences, while the tanks, have to fear, that they get killed, while the lay on the floor. Kinda unfair if you think about, that the squishy one survives, while the tank not.

vor 27 Minuten schrieb Tyreaus:

what tickles Inaros one-shots Loki.

Well Inaraos has to look for his health, while he shoots. Loki has his abilities, which give him full control about the enemies, so that he has enough time to look, where his teammates are, when he shoots. In the end it would be fair.^^

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1 hour ago, ES-Flinter said:

Theoretically yes. Practically not. Main problem would be, that invisibility frames, can risk in 9 of 10 times their lives without any consequences, while the tanks, have to fear, that they get killed, while the lay on the floor. Kinda unfair if you think about, that the squishy one survives, while the tank not.

To be fair, invis frames do run the risk of being dumped off a ledge and having their invisibility reset. But I do see the point. Perhaps the ragdoll / knockdown amount / time could be determined by the weapon's damage and the EHP of the Warframe? Tankier Warframes would be affected less, and weaker self-damage weapons (like Zhuge Prime) would have less of an impact overall, as would make sense for their damage outputs. Bigger boom = more effect. Makes sense, no?

1 hour ago, ES-Flinter said:

Well Inaraos has to look for his health, while he shoots. Loki has his abilities, which give him full control about the enemies, so that he has enough time to look, where his teammates are, when he shoots. In the end it would be fair.^^

In the context of the OP, where they talk about taking out projectiles exploding on allies, this wouldn't be as much of a factor I think.

 

Edited by Tyreaus
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17 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

You're talking about changing to having a self-damage cap or ragdolling instead of killing you.

You're talking about nerfing self-damage. I'm saying we don't need that.

I'm saying I want that. What's your point? You haven't given a single reason as to WHY it shouldn't change.

My reason for it is that it doesn't make much sense, since our Warframes can tank quite a lot of damage. Self damage is overtuned when compared to pretty much every other damage source in the game. A cap would fix that and would allow weapons to be individually tuned separate from their base damage/damage type (balancing lesser used self-damage weapons, of which there are a lot). This would be necessary for my other change which would be to make self damage more pervasive across multiple systems. Note that I low-balled the cap numbers, as was discussed, if that's what you're worried about. 

Edited by Authoritycat
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1 hour ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

->I DON'T NEED THAT<-

FTFY. 

Never ever act like everyone agrees with whatever stupid thing you say, you're not my leader or anything.

So you're agreeing, we don't need that?

4 hours ago, Authoritycat said:

I'm saying I want that. What's your point? You haven't given a single reason as to WHY it shouldn't change.

My reason for it is that it doesn't make much sense, since our Warframes can tank quite a lot of damage. Self damage is overtuned when compared to pretty much every other damage source in the game. A cap would fix that and would allow weapons to be individually tuned separate from their base damage/damage type (balancing lesser used self-damage weapons, of which there are a lot). This would be necessary for my other change which would be to make self damage more pervasive across multiple systems. Note that I low-balled the cap numbers, as was discussed, if that's what you're worried about. 

We don't need to add power to anything.

Before you say something like you're not talking about "adding" to it, yes you are. You're talking about removing a downside, making something more powerful.

We don't need to make things brain dead easy to use, we don't need remove drawbacks from weapons, and we don't need to make things even more powerful.

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Posted this in another thread, but if they absolutely HAVE to keep self damage, make the self damage be based on the UNMODDED damage of the weapon, and be unable to self-crit. So even if you have a monster-modded Bramma, the self damage would be the same as that of a naked Bramma (well, except for Multishot mods). This means tanky frames could actually survive the self damage, while squishy frames could still make use of Cautious Shot. Could even remove that -15% total damage downside to CS with this change.

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On 2020-02-23 at 2:39 PM, Redpaws said:

Posted this in another thread, but if they absolutely HAVE to keep self damage, make the self damage be based on the UNMODDED damage of the weapon, and be unable to self-crit. So even if you have a monster-modded Bramma, the self damage would be the same as that of a naked Bramma (well, except for Multishot mods). This means tanky frames could actually survive the self damage, while squishy frames could still make use of Cautious Shot. Could even remove that -15% total damage downside to CS with this change.

Yeah that could work too. Definitely some kind of change should happen. Self damage is in a bad spot. 

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Never, ever forget the mistakes of the past. The Tonkor meta was a wasteland of viable variety.

 

1: DO NOT cap self damage to any static percentile or flat amount:

Percentile? - Why would my tank equipped with a ton of effective health be relatively no more resilient to an explosion than my glass papier-mache alternatives? This is what happens if a percentage health cap is applied. It also means that the weapon is fundamentally riskless due to the many easy ways of repeatedly topping up missing health.

Flat? - This was the Tonkor in its disgusting old state. No self-crits. Just a piece of flat and ultimately ignorable damage. The risk, again, becomes literally negligible and you have no real learning curve while mastering a weapon to learn and respect its self-damaging radius. Self-damage is reduced to a passive threshold of modding your survivability and regeneration to surpass.

2: Self-damage is (and was) more consistent than you think.

A 'conventional explosive ordnance' - no energy or void magic shenanigans, just a good old chemically reacting bomb - has always been scaling-self-damaging, with the sole exception of the Tonkor of old.
This includes Rockets, Grenades, Clusterbombs, and even ancillary explosive-tipped payloads such as Thunderbolt arrows and Concealed Explosives.
This doesn't include concussive impacts (Sonicor), the aforementioned energy discharges (Staticor et. al.) and despite the result dealing Blast damage, a Quanta cube is clearly not a conventional explosive and does not deal self-damage.

This doesn't mean that those non-conventional payloads can't be attributed a risk factor in the right circumstances or to taste, but those do not break the consistent correlation.

3: Friendly-fire 'crossing the barrel' is an issue for more than blowing yourself up and should be restricted to triggering only when a significant use case can be argued.

As much as blowing yourself up because your friend decided to show off their fashionframe sucks, don't forget that it's still quite annoying to have your buddies eating up your projectiles and bullets that were actually lined right up on that heavy unit's braincase.

Allied hit detection should be removed as a default, and enabled on a case by case basis for effects including but not limited to Triggered Payloads (natural eg Castana), Adhesive Explosives (via mod), and other beneficial projectile effects such as sticking folks with Ivara's cloak arrows. If there's nothing to gain and no rule-of-cool (because who doesn't like loading up your local tank with bombs and zappy balls then having him hug your enemies) then ally collision is a strictly negative influence unwelcome in such a highly-mobile, fast-paced game experience.

 

Bonus round: It is neither thematically inappropriate nor unwelcome variety to have some risk-based weaponry operate 'safer' than others.

This is for the 'arming time/distance' versus don't shoot your feet equipment. Acceltra and Lenz versus Ogris and Penta.

The Grineer literally strap bombs to the fists of failed genetic clones (Ghoul Expired). Clones are expendable. All but the most elite (and even they, if Kuva-immortal) would be expected to put themselves at potential risk for the Queens - and their technology is pretty haphazard at best. Safety features being an afterthought is very on-brand.

The Corpus are slaves to those sweet, sweet Credits. As such, unless your client is rich enough, paying for it and could tell if you cut those corners, producing gear with inadequate contingencies for safety, again, is very on-brand for the corporate overlords. Cutting corners, cutting costs, maximise profit. We're not even in fantasy-land, it's all too common reality.

The Infested are literally a hive-mind. The individual does not matter, and in fact is encouraged to give up their own well-being as long as it deals with the threat. Having Infested-sourced weaponry come at reckless personal risk to the one using it? Why wouldn't it? They're just a tool for the overall needs of the colony. See also: Volatile Runners, not that they're very good at the job.

Sentient and Tenno sourced weaponry, on the other hand, would be many times more likely to include some sort of basic safety features - while the Sentient cannot reproduce, they must be choosy on giving up any individual, and Tenno-faction, 'frames notwithstanding.. as Nakak would say, they're just folks. Folks who wouldn't want to needlessly put themselves at risk.

Themes aside, some people enjoy the fact they might murder themselves if they don't play well. Who are you to deny these people their pleasure when by your own admission, alternatives already exist without the risk? Nobody's forcing you to use those risky conventional explosives - and not every weapon has to cater to everyone. That's the beauty of the variety.

 

The real issue and solution with self-damage:

Enemy health scales continuously, and exponentially. This is what we mod our damage to contend with. Our health scales generally less, and to a finite end result.

However, Self-Damage is linearly linked as a simple fixed percentage of the outgoing damage. This is where the problem lies. 30% of a baseline 500 might be a manageable 150, but when you've modded that bad boy to deal with million-EHP opposition, that 30% is now 300,000 damage to yourself. Big boy numbers.

To solve self-damage while keeping it mechanically intact it requires the link to be non-linear. For the personal risk to scale at a diminished rate compared to the outgoing damage. Apply an algorithmic reduction and suddenly what starts out at a base of 30% Out to Self, after modding to be appropriately nuclear, could be down to less than 5% Out to Self.

I've even armchair-mathematician'd my own equation before now, with tweakable variables that would let DE effortlessly change the base and/or drop-off rate as necessary for future changes to the game's expectations. To give an example at certain values:

  • 500 outgoing == 162.5 self-damage (near that 30% historic baseline)
  • 5000 outgoing == 344 self-damage (Already dropped to ~7% and still survivable)
  • 1000000 outgoing == 20406 self-damage (Reached a fatal value for almost all users, but proportionally now a mere ~2% of outgoing!)

So you see, the problem of inappropriately scaling, disproportionate risk-reward ratios is one that is very solvable while still protecting the core paradigm of self-damage - you make the Bigger Boom, you start losing more than just a toe if you shoot it too close to yourself. Explosives can be made powerful again. People who enjoy that personal risk can go nuts on max-damage builds without feeling like they're being forcibly babied, while those who are allergic to having their funny 'whoops' moment putting them on their back can keep things down at a respectable but not immediately self-fatal level.

And with the core scaling solved, you can all stop bashing on Cautious Shot, as with the right equation, it's not only unnecessary - unless you really wanted to safeguard yourself while deliberately playing paper-thin - but at the current 99% reduction it actually becomes massive overkill and would need a nerf or removing, lest it simply return us to the Tonkor days where your risk is negligible no matter how much punch you're packing.

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On 2020-02-20 at 6:02 PM, Authoritycat said:

Yeah I low balled the damage you're totally right.

You didnt, EHP is called EHP instead of HP for a reason. Damage caps thus far in game are based on post DR calculation (when they work at all) and i doubt DE needs (or would bother to add) extra unique calcs in the damage formula. 50-150 is quite literally the ideal range because its within the regular+rankup bonus frame range values. Its some 7~15 non-irregular statted frames base stats + vitality hits of wiggle room. 2-10 without vit. Aka same ranges competitive fps use depending on (no medkit/healing) pickups or loadout setups.

13 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Flat? - This was the Tonkor in its disgusting old state.

Not really, you can look on youtube for T4/tower survival footage of warframe. At that point in time in warframe the maybe 50k damage (that mostly came from explosions being auto headcrits) might have been impressive for 2 shots per 3.3ish seconds, but that was not just gutted entirely down to sub 20k unless you have extremely good aim (and luck) with explosions not counting as headshots, but a lot of regular sub mr 10 guns now hit at least 20k if not 30k sustained with better status chance and much higher pure S&P headshot chance with a build that includes punchthrough for crowds. Its proper self damage was actually a consequence of DE accidentaly copying another games design philosophy (benefit of extra jump and aoe weapon having downside of hp cost/you being forbidden from spamming it point blank for the entire ammo pool) and actually implementing it well.

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On 2020-02-14 at 10:35 AM, Authoritycat said:

3. Eliminate Friendly Fire

Other players having hitboxes we can interact with is a mistake and should be removed for all weapons. This is especially important when considering self damage. There is a certain level of predictability to enemy movement and world geometry, but that goes out of the window when you consider other players. Hitting another player with a self damage weapon (resulting in death, or damage after this proposed rework) is not fair and is therefor not fun. This goes for other weapons too. Players should never block your line of sight outside of some theoretical hardcore mode where we can damage each other.

 

 

 

I can live with the other aspects of self damage, but squad mates and NPC's (nyx clones, wukong's celestial dude, etc) being able to block sure death blasts from brammas/etc is pretty ridiculous. Personally I'd like to have other players become translucent almost clear and not be able to block your shots period, some are trolling or just stupid (even though it's not common) still sucks.

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On 2020-02-26 at 7:11 AM, Andele3025 said:

Not really, you can look on youtube for T4/tower survival footage of warframe. At that point in time in warframe the maybe 50k damage (that mostly came from explosions being auto headcrits) might have been impressive for 2 shots per 3.3ish seconds, but that was not just gutted entirely down to sub 20k unless you have extremely good aim (and luck) with explosions not counting as headshots, but a lot of regular sub mr 10 guns now hit at least 20k if not 30k sustained with better status chance and much higher pure S&P headshot chance with a build that includes punchthrough for crowds. Its proper self damage was actually a consequence of DE accidentaly copying another games design philosophy (benefit of extra jump and aoe weapon having downside of hp cost/you being forbidden from spamming it point blank for the entire ammo pool) and actually implementing it well.

I don't need to look at Youtube of those days, I was there on the front-lines. You think ~50% usage of the Catchmoon was bad, I'd wager that the combination Tonkor/SySim at that time was closer on 80% prevalence. Maybe even more.

It was a perfect storm of ill-advised design factors.
Removing risk for a 'grenade jump' that was literally relevant for one month before we could all bullet jump for free - and ignoring the fact that in the majority of the games featuring the mechanic, damage is a relevant risk (or reward is removed as well - see TF2 sticky jumper) albeit not an immediately fatal one as it is in Warframe due to the different player/enemy health scaling and linear damage link.
The widest range of an explosive at the time (notwithstanding the not-an-explosive Simulor combine radial damage) making it superior in reward in its class with a high-end damage output that's more serviceable than finding punch-through opportunities and lacking a strict operating range or damage falloff effects (as compared Ignis).
At-the-time auto-headshot radials combined with this being the first fully reliable crit launcher and the 'headcrit' mechanic further doubling its effective output.

So we had a heavy headcritting radial damage that could be used at long range with its aim-guide, or freely non-aimed by just bodying enemies with it with zero thought or caveat involved. It's an AOE weapon by nature, and a radial generally has a better average multi-target hit rate than punch-through both opportunistically (enemies in an area are more likely than enemies in single-file) and mechanically (projectiles can wander off-centre after punching, and punch is limited - neither affect radials). It was horrendously overpowered.
On the other hand we had the SySim, which asked the player to have multishot or be Mirage, and with its rifle-category ammo, mindlessly jump around spamming the fire button to pop constant even wider-reaching damage radials. Worse, it was three kinds of intrusive. It sounded awful. It looked awful unless the culprit happened to offer the luxury of having black energy. It was gameplay-intrusive because you, using pretty much anything else but the Power Two and requiring aim, could not hope to hit anything before PRANG PRANG PRANG PRANG took them out.

 

Was the Tonkor itself overnerfed? I'd actually say... yes. But it was all collateral damage because of people who couldn't take their self-damage. ALL radials suffered when auto-headshot was patched out, despite it being intended to bring in line those two outliers, and it took a long while before weapon balance passes touched the other resulted-underwhelming explosives again. The abusers' resistance to the idea of self-damage led to the Tonkor also getting stat nerfed by the time DEvs finally caved to sensibilities.

The SySim couldn't be fixed with self-damage due to its mechanics - the range from player at which combinations happened, and the range of the resulting radial damage, overlapped too easily - so the mechanics had to be changed instead.

Even the staunchest defenders of self-damage would call a gun that doesn't give you adequate control over whether it kills you or not a bad design - and that's why the Cyanex's self-damage removal made sense. Homing projectiles coming back at you and murdering you are Not Okay. Bouncing projectile physics you can expect and prepare for, those are fineThe rest is on the wielder. You can use a Kulstar inside a Snowglobe and not drop yourself. It's not wise, but it's possible, and the player makes their judgement. Accept that, move past that, and we get to the proportional risk and reward - which I've pointed out is a problem of linear vs. exponential scaling that needs to (and can) be de-coupled effectively.

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43 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I don't need to look at Youtube of those days, I was there on the front-lines.

Good, it means not having to how the catchmoon was (and kinda still is like all the kitguns due to their average dps being for almost all secondaries higher than theoretical max dps AND that they dont have downsides unlike most that can even vaguely compete) is far worse than the tonkor ever even could have been because it has the dps instead of just burst to support it along with difference modern modding setups and frame design makes.

43 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Removing risk for a 'grenade jump' that was literally relevant for one month before we could all bullet jump for free - and ignoring the fact that in the majority of the games featuring the mechanic, damage is a relevant risk (or reward is removed as well - see TF2 sticky jumper) albeit not an immediately fatal one as it is in Warframe due to the different player/enemy health scaling and linear damage link.

30~ish damage a nade per 600ish hp is low (especially seeing how the generally percieved good design sweetspot is ability to self damage 5-7 times depending on values before suicide shot), but its not actually removed of risk due to warframes gameloop structure AND FAR FAR better than applying full self damage to a game that only uses pseudo proportional player to enemy stats instead of actually similar values. Make it 50-150 depending on weapon (higher base fire rate/potential instances per second before MS, lower SD).

43 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Even the staunchest defenders of self-damage would call a gun that doesn't give you adequate control over whether it kills you or not a bad design - and that's why the Cyanex's self-damage removal made sense. Homing projectiles coming back at you and murdering you are Not Okay. Bouncing projectile physics you can expect and prepare for, those are fineThe rest is on the wielder. 

ONLY if the power is to justify it. The lenz does it (mostly) correctly (mostly since you need to build specifically for the HM proc off it instead raw damage for the statement to be true at any level where non-self damage aoe weapons cant do the same, but w/e), however nothing else has that excuse.

43 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You can use a Kulstar inside a Snowglobe and not drop yourself. It's not wise, but it's possible, and the player makes their judgement. Accept that, move past that, and we get to the proportional risk and reward - which I've pointed out is a problem of linear vs. exponential scaling that needs to (and can) be de-coupled effectively.

THEN TELL DE TO MAKE THE REWARD WORTHY OF INSTANT DEATH. The moment the kulstar wipes at least 60 enemies in a 30m radius is the moment its allowed to instakill a frame with both full shields and hp. Because the correct judgement right now from both a common sense and design point is "dont use self damage weapons (except the lenz) at all, use the better guns".

Scaling wont every fix it because if DE does what IT while setting the numbers to what is needed to make the self damage calc well designed, the strongest enemies will at best have 2k hp/be what, level 30 crewmen (which you could do, dividing enemy ehp by around 90-140 depending on the enemy and outgoing damage by circa 110~ish, its just a lot of work for the same #*!%ing results).

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32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Good, it means not having to how the catchmoon was (and kinda still is like all the kitguns due to their average dps being for almost all secondaries higher than theoretical max dps AND that they dont have downsides unlike most that can even vaguely compete) is far worse than the tonkor ever even could have been because it has the dps instead of just burst to support it along with difference modern modding setups and frame design makes.

Remove the natural power-creep from the equation and you might actually be surprised to know that the Tonkor's sustained DPS through reloads was still calculably superior than other metas of that day. I know this, again, because I wasn't just in game. I was on the threads too, making those calculations. The Soma Prime isn't the god-king it once was either, but creep since then is an outside factor to the mechanical comparisons of the guns as they were.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

30~ish damage a nade per 600ish hp is low (especially seeing how the generally percieved good design sweetspot is ability to self damage 5-7 times depending on values before suicide shot), but its not actually removed of risk due to warframes gameloop structure AND FAR FAR better than applying full self damage to a game that only uses pseudo proportional player to enemy stats instead of actually similar values. Make it 50-150 depending on weapon (higher base fire rate/potential instances per second before MS, lower SD).

The 'good design' sweetspot you're suggesting is only a product of the risk/reward balance. Let's take a little jaunt back in time and across games to look at the Redeemer. No, not our gunblade Redeemer. The remote-controllable nuclear superweapon in Unreal Tournament. Now where the regular rocket launcher there would take a couple clean hits to murder an enemy and the self-damage was only a portion of your general health accordingly, the Redeemer would pop out a big sphere of instant death. Including for yourself. The ability to get damage on more people, and to instakill, amplified the misuse to instant suicide. Same applies here. There should be a point where your output is enough to kill yourself instantly. If you got the damage buff in UT, or if you used the multishot feature of the rocket launcher, you could instakill yourself. Conversely, if you stocked up on overhealth you'd be able to take that hit.

So we have a tank (overhealed UT, natural Frame) being able to take more punishment, but still having a point where the reward's associated risk still overcomes them shot-per-shot. Survivability has its relevance. Being weak (in our case, naturally low ehp) presents more of a risk. That's why percentages don't work. But still being able to reach that suicide zone means that the scaling has to be tied in. It can't be flat/capped values either, because we'd never be so dangerous we risk our Inaros - which is part of the fun for risk-agreeable players.They shouldn't have to handicap down to soft frames to put themselves at artificial risk. You handicap down reward to mitigate risk.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

ONLY if the power is to justify it. The lenz does it (mostly) correctly (mostly since you need to build specifically for the HM proc off it instead raw damage for the statement to be true at any level where non-self damage aoe weapons cant do the same, but w/e), however nothing else has that excuse.

THEN TELL DE TO MAKE THE REWARD WORTHY OF INSTANT DEATH. The moment the kulstar wipes at least 60 enemies in a 30m radius is the moment its allowed to instakill a frame with both full shields and hp. Because the correct judgement right now from both a common sense and design point is "dont use self damage weapons (except the lenz) at all, use the better guns".

I really should make the Morpheus meme template for this, but what if I told you.. that complaining about self-damage prevents the guns from being buffed enough? DE has obviously had headaches trying to make Cautious Shot work. But it's still just moving the linear-linked goalpost. And people are still complaining, so what happens when (if) they get buffed? Most of the vocal anti-selfdamage crowd would bash the change with 'lol it already murdered myself, now we suicide EVEN HARDER, gg!"

Unless they ease off the complaining and accept their own agency in not shooting their feet when it's avoidable (we'll assume the ally collision problem is fixed in this hypothesis), which we can encourage by pushing higher the point where fatal self-damage occurs as in my algorithmic example, then the upper boundary is a risky thing to improve due to backlash.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Scaling wont every fix it because if DE does what IT while setting the numbers to what is needed to make the self damage calc well designed, the strongest enemies will at best have 2k hp/be what, level 30 crewmen (which you could do, dividing enemy ehp by around 90-140 depending on the enemy and outgoing damage by circa 110~ish, its just a lot of work for the same #*!%ing results).

I gave an example of numbers that can come out of the algorithm I designed. It's quite flexible beyond that. Where would you want the per-shot damage output to become fatal? I can make it fit. The point is that flexibility both initially and to change as necessary in the future. DE makes enemies softer? Our proportional self-damage can be allowed to get fatal sooner since we don't 'need' it to deal such insane output. We suddenly have to put out 10 times the expected damage? The reverse is true, allowing the fatal-point to be pushed to absurdly high numbers by a simple variable tweak.

With the equation using its strongest clamping I could make the game's integer max damage value (2 147 483 647) being shot out of your gun at enemies deal just 2150 damage to you. Actually, it can go less, but you see how powerful it can be. On the other side I can have the damage reduction not even start until it's dealing 500 (or any higher number) damage to yourself, much less having it downscale slower.

With the right numbers plugged in, the risk/reward band can be squashed and stretched pretty much wherever it needs to be. It is a solved problem, all you (or rather, DE) need to know is what you (they) want to come out of it.

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