How To Fix Self Damage - SELF DAMAGE REWORK

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Remove the natural power-creep from the equation

Which you cant since meta, at the moment """endgame""" and followup releases are all part of the balance package. Its why Saryn isnt op despite the whine as her power is focused on a very mid game or levelup/rankup farm area.

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

and you might actually be surprised to know that the Tonkor's sustained DPS through reloads was still calculably superior than other metas of that day. I know this, again, because I wasn't just in game.The Soma Prime isn't the god-king it once was either, but creep since then is an outside factor to the mechanical comparisons of the guns as they were.

Not really, you can actually math them out from patchnotes and using a area average of T4 void coverage in farm situations get it was about the same as boltor prime, amprex, soma prime, heks, tigrises, khom, rakta c (and maybe the dread). Worse than some depending on amount of heavy units and probably if you had a zephyr or not in case of bigger rooms, but pretty close.

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

The 'good design' sweetspot you're suggesting is only a product of the risk/reward balance.

No, its just a sweetspot based on psychology from testing gameplay design. a weapon can have extremely S#&$ rewards for a uneeded risk, but as long as the risk is percieved as being able to be countered or played around efficiently, people will use it.

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

what if I told you.. that complaining about self-damage prevents the guns from being buffed enough? 

Again no, it just means that you believing that means you arent thinking about how mechanics can be implemented. Personally im more for the even lower than 50-150 self damage (some 25-75 damage) but only active while shields are up but thats because frames without shields technically have mechanics that could let them on the usual builds survive without issue and would give a niche to shield resto effects in loadout choices. Its still likely S#&$ for people that want to play no shield frames or if DE ever implements a way to shift rankup stats again into warframe AND it would probably piss off everyone who would wanna use them at effective enemy level 200+ content due to shields being paper, so i suggested it as its own thing before instead of as a counterpoint to you.

DE has damage caps calcs in game already, 3 different ones in fact so there is no legit argument to it. In fact the opposite, because self damage kills almost the entire roster, there is no reason not to buff the self damage weapons that dont do jack S#&$.

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

With the right numbers plugged in, the risk/reward band can be squashed and stretched pretty much wherever it needs to be. It is a solved problem, all you (or rather, DE) need to know is what you (they) want to come out of it.

And the right numbers are: hard cap self damage to where the average unmodded rank 30 frame has 2-10 shots to kill itself depending on the effective fire rate/possible instance count of self damage per second of the weapon (hell possibly even closer to the "very good" of 6 average).

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Which you cant since meta, at the moment """endgame""" and followup releases are all part of the balance package. Its why Saryn isnt op despite the whine as her power is focused on a very mid game or levelup/rankup farm area.

Not really, you can actually math them out from patchnotes and using a area average of T4 void coverage in farm situations get it was about the same as boltor prime, amprex, soma prime, heks, tigrises, khom, rakta c (and maybe the dread). Worse than some depending on amount of heavy units and probably if you had a zephyr or not in case of bigger rooms, but pretty close.

You cannot take the historic figures and compare them to the current ones as a validating example. Power creep is not a quantified number. The only way to compare appropriately is to eliminate it as a variable from the equation. And since the Old Tonkor hasn't just been introduced (we have a variant NEW Tonkor still using the NEW Tonkor risks), we can't make a balanced equation that contains it, (Meta_A * PowerCreep) [??] (Meta_B * PowerCreep). We have to use the old meta values on both sides. Old_Meta_A [??] Old_Meta_B.

So when we discuss OLD Tonkor reward to its (lack of) risks we compare OLD Tonkor to OLD meta counterparts such as Boltor Prime, Soma Prime as they were.

And I didn't just compare superficial numbers. I calculate the impact of reloading - using mag size, fire rate and reload time - and apply that to the literal average damage per shot, using the mathematical average of criticals. Because the reloading-downtime 'drawback' had to be eliminated from the comparison.

The Tonkor overperformed. Inarguable.

And Saryn is busted. Didn't Pablo himself thought-experiment recently on one of his personal streams that she was too thoughtlessly powerful? I remember a wave of rage passing through from what was just an offhand discussion, not even something with intended action as a developer in any near future.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

No, its just a sweetspot based on psychology from testing gameplay design^{[citation needed]}. a weapon can have extremely S#&$ rewards for a uneeded risk, but as long as the risk is percieved as being able to be countered or played around efficiently, people will use it.

You can counter and play around self-damage. It's called situational awareness and not looking down the end of the rocket launcher. Some of us are already aware of this.

Got your missing 'citation needed' tag too.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Again no, it just means that you believing that means you arent thinking about how mechanics can be implemented. Personally im more for the even lower than 50-150 self damage (some 25-75 damage) but only active while shields are up but thats because frames without shields technically have mechanics that could let them on the usual builds survive without issue and would give a niche to shield resto effects in loadout choices. Its still likely S#&$ for people that want to play no shield frames or if DE ever implements a way to shift rankup stats again into warframe AND it would probably piss off everyone who would wanna use them at effective enemy level 200+ content due to shields being paper, so i suggested it as its own thing before instead of as a counterpoint to you.

DE has damage caps calcs in game already, 3 different ones in fact so there is no legit argument to it. In fact the opposite, because self damage kills almost the entire roster, there is no reason not to buff the self damage weapons that dont do jack S#&$.

So in this hypothetical solution you want to be able to shoot... just your shields, flat-capped?

By the time you bust through your own shields you've got your sentinel's Guardian mod cooldown refreshed and it refills them to full. You have no drawback. You are Old Tonkor.
You play Hildryn. Good luck getting through that. You are Old Tonkor.
Something else shoots through your shields. You shoot yourself with an explosive and die. You are not Old Tonkor, but you are still complaining about the instantly fatal self-damage. Because apparently, "pay attention to your screen" is not permitted as an argument. Can't be expected to point away from the wall clearly in your way, to see you're in a dangerously tight corridor before shooting, so why would you check your shields are up?

Have you even noticed that the shield-break feedback effects ingame are currently broken and entirely missing? Because I have, I use(d) my shields more than most. With the proper feedback you can actually keep them going much farther than most players (or rather, the 'influencers' telling them otherwise) think.

 

Unlike your random psychology claim before, I have evidence. That being the fact the reduction of Cautious Shot was increased. That being the graphic earlier in the thread mocking people who mention it - and if I cared to go find them, posts around the time of Cautious being buffed saying it's 'still not enough'.

This implies DE want self-damage to exist, are trying to stem the complaints, have not succeeded and indeed gain more for 'unsatisfactory' changes. I'm sure when the balance pass came, there was some response about the explosives being (moderately) buffed that bemoaned their suicide rate. Significant buffs would fare little differently. Ergo, why buff and increase negative feedback when you haven't solved the standing 'problem factor'?

I have to wonder if you've even paid attention to my proposed solution and how that could do the trick without fundamentally changing a mechanic. 

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

And the right numbers are: hard cap self damage to where the average unmodded rank 30 frame has 2-10 shots to kill itself depending on the effective fire rate/possible instance count of self damage per second of the weapon (hell possibly even closer to the "very good" of 6 average).

Unmodded? Okay, now you're just being ridiculous.

You know what EHP modifiers can stack onto that right? Redirection increases a Rank 30 standard shield gain by ~250% (440% additive to rankup 200%). Add your most basic reduction effects - let's say you just have Blessing's 75% - and you've multiplied it by 4.

Already you have to empty 20 of your slow firing Ogris rockets at your feet. to die. Then there's squads' buffs. If we're not just counting shields per earlier, and we're capping on health too, you need to factor for armour. Stronger self-buffs. A 90% DR buff (e.g. Gara) and you've got to find more rockets than you actually hold in order to kill yourself.

And that's just for the average. Not the beefier boys.

And it's not counting easy restoration.

Capping would not work to prevent Old Tonkor Meta behaviour. It'd turn a niche playstyle into playing with water balloons. Keep that for next Dog Days.

[Andele3025]

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You cannot take the historic figures and compare them to the current ones as a validating example. Power creep is not a quantified number.

You can compare historic figures to historic figures. And yes it is. e.g. kitguns introduced a massive #*!%off powercreep of on average 30% over equivalent no-downside secondaries.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

And I didn't just compare superficial numbers. I calculate the impact of reloading - using mag size, fire rate and reload time - and apply that to the literal average damage per shot, using the mathematical average of criticals. Because the reloading-downtime 'drawback' had to be eliminated from the comparison.

Yes, crits and reload speed is part of dps calc

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

The Tonkor overperformed. Inarguable.

No. Not really. Auto headcrits were.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

And Saryn is busted.

No.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Didn't Pablo himself thought-experiment recently on one of his personal streams that she was too thoughtlessly powerful?

Yes and that he wouldnt nerf her just because of ESO because other frames not just do the same niche as well but in general gameplay many other frames vastly outpace her.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I remember a wave of rage passing through from what was just an offhand discussion, not even something with intended action as a developer in any near future.

No, it was because people didnt watch the stream or even clips of him mentioning it and went off word of mouth.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You can counter and play around self-damage. It's called situational awareness and not looking down the end of the rocket launcher. Some of us are already aware of this.

And your argument is? Because no amount of sophistry can counter the point that instakill self damage isnt good design unless its literally a nuke (aka entire god damn map chunk cleared of enemies).

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Got your missing 'citation needed' tag too.

You got one, not me, proof is in everything from old shooters to the by you used TF2 and even in stuff like MTG-non-mana card cost design (and yugioh and hearthstone overload and lock hp/discard costs and Call of Cthulu and 3rd&5th ed D&D...). Oh and the fact that people will use stuff that isnt optimal en mass, but wont do so if its negatives arent at least vaguely "fair" in feeling instead of actually proportional to the positives.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

So in this hypothetical solution you want to be able to shoot... just your shields, flat-capped?

In my hypothetical, if you had enough shields for them to tank a tiny amount of damage, self damage would be just that (and then blow yourself up if it hits hp). Mostly because of the build making implications and soft effect on ones game loop instead of the burning trash that self damage is right now from a game design point. And its not about me wanting to shoot because melee and movement is the main draw for warframe to me. But much like how im pestering pablo to make Titania use railjack AW instead of old blood AW movement control scheme, the actual point is independent of my feelings and why im just countering your "capped damage = tonkor meta" with the point of 50-150 cap (assuming the damage cap calc most enemies seem to use where dr sources applies first, then the damage cap gets slapped on based on "fire rate"/calculated instances per second) being quite literally around the sweet spot other games demonstrate.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

By the time you bust through your own shields you've got your sentinel's Guardian mod cooldown refreshed and it refills them to full. You have no drawback. You are Old Tonkor.

Again, no, no headcits and not even in peak dps.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You play Hildryn. Good luck getting through that. You are Old Tonkor.

Again, no, no headcits and not even in peak dps. Tho both cases demonstrate the point that it causes a wider range of general loadout options AND increases the amount of hypothetically immune to self damage frames from realistically 1.5

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Something else shoots through your shields. You shoot yourself with an explosive and die. You are not Old Tonkor, but you are still complaining about the instantly fatal self-damage. Because apparently, "pay attention to your screen" is not permitted as an argument.

Sophistry wont get around the fact that in the case of your shields being down is something you can actually regulate far better then ally volt rushing through you causing a instant explosion on all guns without a arming time which functionally dont have self damage at all unless you played via nidus+gauss or pre-navigator fix patch ivara.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Can't be expected to point away from the wall clearly in your way, to see you're in a dangerously tight corridor before shooting, so why would you check your shields are up?

If you cant be expected to stop shooting when your health resource is down, how can i expect that you arent shooting into the wall or tight corridor?
Oh, actually, let me guess, you, much like most people, dont have a singe explosive weapon above lets say 5% usage (spitballing here, if you do, congratulations on finding yourself a nice boom weapon and somehow having fun with it) or so because the current implementation of self damage is badly designed thus people use better options that have the same desired part of performance (aoe) even if they are lower damage (or higher but different aoe type like amprex). Afraid of the tonkor? Well torid does 3/4ths the long term dps but better burst, better instance count AND it cant ever kill you. Or either version of the ignis, easy 50% of the damage but with a better base element in a long line. Oh and fire rate mods actually impact it and influence your loadout and gameplay in a way thats relevant.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Have you even noticed that the shield-break feedback effects ingame are currently broken and entirely missing? Because I have, I use(d) my shields more than most. With the proper feedback you can actually keep them going much farther than most players (or rather, the 'influencers' telling them otherwise) think.

1) You have the swoosh noise on shield depletion and the red flash on any damage.
2) If you're unable to recognize both, sure, im not against adding a glass crack effect to the screen (with toggle off much like sniper scopes).

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Unlike your random psychology claim before, I have evidence.

No you dont, in fact you have the opposite, you have feelings while even warframe itself proves, people will use weapons whose downsides or risk is worse than the benefits as long as its percieved to be resource managable. Oh and i actually understand the game design and that death should be a failure state caused not by a wrong guess, but a chain of wrong actions. Its why hp bars exist in the first place.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

That being the fact the reduction of Cautious Shot was increased.

No, that just proves noone did the math in DE as usual when it comes to bandaids. That isnt a indication of anything related to game design, only to DE having a messy design pipeline and middle management probably being given work instead of what middle management is usually supposed to do like in a lot of game companies that was formed from the ground up instead of by corporate order.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

This implies DE want self-damage to exist, are trying to stem the complaints

Which it can with a flat cap which then future proofs them for all releases instead of having to do the extra work of calculating what they didnt with CS that 2k ehp isnt actual HP and thus 1.8-3k self damage post CS will still drop the average frame from 100% to revive Or worse/more realistic, that even the more meh self damage weapons that will hit you for 300-600 hp are Actually even a comfort build that integrates reload speed and maybe fire rate in case of bows or

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

there was some response about the explosives being (moderately) buffed that bemoaned their suicide rate

So what, there are people on the forums claiming self damage needs to be related to outgoing damage when almost every game that has it proves thats not the case.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Unmodded? Okay, now you're just being ridiculous.

400-700 hp are the values that should be played with in mind, yes. Modding is a active choice you do with how much power or survivability each slot costs/can give. Its also the values enemies tend to use for their damage output to die after around 2 sec of no movement unless its a mission with a modifier (VT4) or Orb Vallis (and probably Railjack) since enemies lie about their level there (or to be more specific, DE gave enemies with no reason to have outstanding stats for level outstanding stats for their level instead of just making their base level of the level where such stats would be standard for).

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You know what EHP modifiers can stack onto that right? Redirection increases a Rank 30 standard shield gain by ~250% (440% additive to rankup 200%). Add your most basic reduction effects - let's say you just have Blessing's 75% - and you've multiplied it by 4. Already you have to empty 20 of your slow firing Ogris rockets at your feet. to die. Then there's squads' buffs. If we're not just counting shields per earlier, and we're capping on health too, you need to factor for armour. Stronger self-buffs. A 90% DR buff (e.g. Gara) and you've got to find more rockets than you actually hold in order to kill yourself.

And you do understand that damage cap calcs apply after DR in every case in game. Did you ever encounter eidolons, a boss with phases or jugger?

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Capping would not work to prevent Old Tonkor Meta behaviour. It'd turn a niche playstyle into playing with water balloons. Keep that for next Dog Days.

Proof #*!%ing needed.

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

You can compare historic figures to historic figures. And yes it is. e.g. kitguns introduced a massive #*!%off powercreep of on average 30% over equivalent no-downside secondaries.

No. Not really. Auto headcrits were.

You weren't comparing historics to historics, though. You compared historic meta to current meta. Provide evidence across the entire game to reach your single numerical conclusion - a single 'power creep' multiplier value that applies in every situation to every mechanic and style of weapon, which can therefore be simply used as a divisor between now and then. (Hint: You can't. You're cherry-picking data points for something that is situational and varies in context.)

If autoheadcrits were the sole performance problem then explain why the Synoid Simulor was also a problem child of the era despite its comparatively unreliable and underwhelming crit rate, Explain also how removing auto-headshots from two overperforming weapons and several underperforming weapons is a balance change that brings both to the middle ground. (Hint: It didn't. The other explosives were ruined by an effective damage halving until the sweeping weapon balance passes much later)

3 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

No.

Yes and that he wouldnt nerf her just because of ESO because other frames not just do the same niche as well but in general gameplay many other frames vastly outpace her.

No, it was because people didnt watch the stream or even clips of him mentioning it and went off word of mouth.

Yes. The ability to scale up indefinitely, the easy transference of that scaling damage over an unseen and wide-reaching radius. ESO is just the awful design it is that makes such things nearly necessary to succeed, but whether it's a defence mission where the Saryn needs to aim at just one target to steadily wipe the entire wave or an Exterminate where you can just carry the spores through the level as you go and everything dies in your wake. Remember how they gutted Ember for something Saryn can do better anyway, with superior-typed, scaling damage output?

I've seen and been Saryn in an elemental enhancement Sortie where she still pulls damage and kill majority. That's purely anecdotal but just consider the possibility. Someone doing (effectively) purely elemental damage in a context that, depending on healthtypes, removes elemental advantages and/or up to quartering their output with that 75% resistance modifier and still leaving their teammates in the dust.

But I digress. How this comes back in to relate to self-damage and past mistakes, is because the largest observable difference is in target acquisition. No line of sight issues and little need to aim. Just wave your magic wand in the general vicinity of enemies and they all fall over, even the ones you didn't know about. The old Mirage/SySim behaviour, especially.

3 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

And your argument is? Because no amount of sophistry can counter the point that instakill self damage isnt good design unless its literally a nuke (aka entire god damn map chunk cleared of enemies).

You got one, not me, proof is in everything from old shooters to the by you used TF2 and even in stuff like MTG-non-mana card cost design (and yugioh and hearthstone overload and lock hp/discard costs and Call of Cthulu and 3rd&5th ed D&D...). Oh and the fact that people will use stuff that isnt optimal en mass, but wont do so if its negatives arent at least vaguely "fair" in feeling instead of actually proportional to the positives.

Point is that you're arguing that being able to completely play around a risk, however large, makes players accept it. Which, since the game gives you 100% of the information needed to not kill yourself if you actually, you know, master that weapon in all its inherent riskiness, defeats the whole argument against having fatal self-damage.

'No u' doesn't work. In TF2 the reward and risk are linked. The Sticky Jumper doesn't hurt the user any more, but as a tradeoff doesn't hurt your enemies any more. Crit rockets kill you just as much more effectively than non-crit rockets as they do to enemies if you don't aim them the hell away from yourself. Besides that and whatever card-game influence you're trying to vaguely reference, this doesn't support the point of discussion at this stage: fatal self-damage can be fair game.

If you're carrying around something with the comparative damage output of getting a Quad Damage powerup and you still point that thing directly at the floor, you have failed to respect your weapon's risks and you should pay the price. As I said, you didn't need the Redeemer's map-nuke to kill yourself in a single trigger pull back in Unreal Tournaments of old. Multi-rockets and the damage powerup added enough risk.

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

In my hypothetical, if you had enough shields for them to tank a tiny amount of damage, self damage would be just that (and then blow yourself up if it hits hp). Mostly because of the build making implications and soft effect on ones game loop instead of the burning trash that self damage is right now from a game design point. And its not about me wanting to shoot because melee and movement is the main draw for warframe to me. But much like how im pestering pablo to make Titania use railjack AW instead of old blood AW movement control scheme, the actual point is independent of my feelings and why im just countering your "capped damage = tonkor meta" with the point of 50-150 cap (assuming the damage cap calc most enemies seem to use where dr sources applies first, then the damage cap gets slapped on based on "fire rate"/calculated instances per second) being quite literally around the sweet spot other games demonstrate.

Again, no, no headcits and not even in peak dps.

Again, no, no headcits and not even in peak dps. Tho both cases demonstrate the point that it causes a wider range of general loadout options AND increases the amount of hypothetically immune to self damage frames from realistically 1.5

Sophistry wont get around the fact that in the case of your shields being down is something you can actually regulate far better then ally volt rushing through you causing a instant explosion on all guns without a arming time which functionally dont have self damage at all unless you played via nidus+gauss or pre-navigator fix patch ivara.

Shield gates are for unanticipated enemy cheap-shots, not your own poor judgement. You pulled that trigger. You knew exactly when the damage risk is present, unlike when Ballista units used to noscope you dead before you could even register their existence. Also, other games still 'demonstrate' that whatever the baseline is changes dynamically with the risk and reward continuing to be linked. Less risk? Sacrifice reward. More reward? Increase risk accordingly.

Headcrits are irrelevant. In fact, all actual damage output is completely irrelevant to the hypothetical situation. Which is the problem with any fixed 'solution' - risk and reward are completely unrelated, unlike my suggested resolution which keeps them related, but changes the relationship to one that better befits how our modding capabilities work.

I already said that ally collision is a legitimate problem. We're only discussing the magnitude of failures to execute, as that is a separate factor. I'm glad you observed that arming-time weapons have functionally no self-damage, though - including the Lenz in this case, you have to make two mistakes to risk yourself, which is a luxury and a convenience, not necessary. You still made that first mistake, after all.

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

If you cant be expected to stop shooting when your health resource is down, how can i expect that you arent shooting into the wall or tight corridor?
Oh, actually, let me guess, you, much like most people, dont have a singe explosive weapon above lets say 5% usage (spitballing here, if you do, congratulations on finding yourself a nice boom weapon and somehow having fun with it) or so because the current implementation of self damage is badly designed thus people use better options that have the same desired part of performance (aoe) even if they are lower damage (or higher but different aoe type like amprex). Afraid of the tonkor? Well torid does 3/4ths the long term dps but better burst, better instance count AND it cant ever kill you. Or either version of the ignis, easy 50% of the damage but with a better base element in a long line. Oh and fire rate mods actually impact it and influence your loadout and gameplay in a way thats relevant.

Saturation plays tricks on usage statistics. You might have a weapon you effectively never use, that happens to be on a loadout you use often, which adds that gameplay time up. Conversely, loadouts you use often versus playing other things in circumstances that don't feed statistics as well. My most-used explosive is going to be the Kulstar, since it's the one I have attached to a loadout I don't frequently alter.

What you fail to recognise is that you don't need to be able to use every weapon in every situation. Self-damage or not, an explosive isn't going to do a damn thing on location-hit boss encounters like Sargas Ruk. In an Arbitration you would naturally shy away from risky weapons for reliability as the drawback for making your error is a much more pressing issue.

But that's fine because the alternatives exist and nobody's forcing anybody to use a weapon category they don't like. There's no 'self-damage weapon only' Sortie modifier. You're just projecting your opinion because you don't enjoy the genuinely risky self-damage paradigm. That's fine. I'm not here to make you enjoy them. I'm here to say that some people do. I'm here to say that just because it doesn't fit every situation - and usage stats reflect that - doesn't mean it has to be fundamentally changed to fit the circumstances and players that don't befit it.

Explosives still have advantages. It's direct damage. Radial, non-falloff damage. The Torid takes time. The continuous weapons take time. An explosive removes the enemy then and there instead of letting them potentially shoot you while you drain away your target health. Continuous AOE weaponry has a significantly poorer ammo economy (which fire rate modding amplifies), and the Ignis also has falloff. You're much better off comparing things like the Staticor than you are any of the ones you mentioned.

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

1) You have the swoosh noise on shield depletion and the red flash on any damage.
2) If you're unable to recognize both, sure, im not against adding a glass crack effect to the screen (with toggle off much like sniper scopes).

Are you talking about the difference between the sound effect of your shield being struck in (1)? Because that tells you you're getting hit. Not the crucial instant it breaks. Same as taking health hits and getting red vignettes which can be missed, or come too late to save yourself, and if you have poor health restore options on hand risks death by sheer attrition.

No, I mean the distinct audio and visual tells that used to exist, that we lost.. I believe it was on the Railjack pre-build update, that told you in no uncertain terms that you're on health now. Without that, shields are far less reliable. Sadly DE seem to ignore their own bug forums a lot.

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

No you dont, in fact you have the opposite, you have feelings while even warframe itself proves, people will use weapons whose downsides or risk is worse than the benefits as long as its percieved to be resource managable. Oh and i actually understand the game design and that death should be a failure state caused not by a wrong guess, but a chain of wrong actions. Its why hp bars exist in the first place.

No, that just proves noone did the math in DE as usual when it comes to bandaids. That isnt a indication of anything related to game design, only to DE having a messy design pipeline and middle management probably being given work instead of what middle management is usually supposed to do like in a lot of game companies that was formed from the ground up instead of by corporate order.

Oneshot mechanics exist in many games, so your wrong 'guess' (actual: poor judgement and reactions) is as legitimate a reason to end up on your back here as it is there. You see where terrain is, where enemies are, you (should) understand your weapon's travel time and blast radius. Therefore, you have the information to know where the blast radius should and could be. If you're standing where it could be, you're taking a Known Risk when you pull the trigger. That's your decision. Accept the consequences if you made a bad call.

They didn't have to give us Cautious Shot at all. It's a bandaid, alright, but it's one they're trying to stretch over the vocal whiny players, not the self-damage mechanic. 'Wah, it even reduces our damage' said those who still trip over their gun barrel. Meanwhile, anyone who uses explosives with a genuine enjoyment and acceptance of the risks doesn't care because they don't even slot it. Like I said though, all the mod does is shift the goalposts a little bit. It doesn't solve the linear-link of a finite with a more exponential, so of course it's still going unchecked to scale out of control.

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Which it can with a flat cap which then future proofs them for all releases instead of having to do the extra work of calculating what they didnt with CS that 2k ehp isnt actual HP and thus 1.8-3k self damage post CS will still drop the average frame from 100% to revive Or worse/more realistic, that even the more meh self damage weapons that will hit you for 300-600 hp are Actually even a comfort build that integrates reload speed and maybe fire rate in case of bows or

I suppose I should clarify. DE want relevant self-damage. They want it to be linked with the reward, or Cautious wouldn't have been introduced with a skimming of your damage stat, on top of asking you to give it some capacity/a slot. Flat capping removes this link entirely, with the added problem of inviting Old Tonkor problems. The middle ground is to make the link less of a bar and more elastic so that one number going nuts doesn't bring the other past its sensible boundaries too easily.

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

So what, there are people on the forums claiming self damage needs to be related to outgoing damage when almost every game that has it proves thats not the case.

Citation needed. Games clearly prove it to be the case, see earlier examples with UT damage boosts/multirocket and TF2 crit rockets posing additional threat as both reward and risk.

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

400-700 hp are the values that should be played with in mind, yes. Modding is a active choice you do with how much power or survivability each slot costs/can give. Its also the values enemies tend to use for their damage output to die after around 2 sec of no movement unless its a mission with a modifier (VT4) or Orb Vallis (and probably Railjack) since enemies lie about their level there (or to be more specific, DE gave enemies with no reason to have outstanding stats for level outstanding stats for their level instead of just making their base level of the level where such stats would be standard for).

Not at all accurate. Seekers and Shield Lancers will casually destroy you at far lower levels. Different regional variants can vary their strength between units too. Jupiter is crazy now. Every time DE makes new enemies or touches shared guns, no matter where they end up placed in active content, the threat is growing.

So, just like how our weapon balance should have been decoupled from enemy firepower (which is basic dev practice - separation of concerns), that enemy firepower should not decide what damage we do shooting ourselves. What we output (and what we're expected to) should decide that.

5 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

And you do understand that damage cap calcs apply after DR in every case in game. Did you ever encounter eidolons, a boss with phases or jugger?

Eidolons have a damage reduction, not a cap, which is why we still oneshot limbs. That's not a capping of damage, that's multi-stage encounter design. Totally different. Juggernaut is also just damage resistance and being a massive pain in the arse.

What you're looking for are examples like Captain Vor, Sargas Ruk and Vay Hek, who actually do have damage gates inside phases that you can hit. Funnily enough, even these aren't actually capped in most cases. With sufficient single-shot damage you can just force through the gate and pop the phase. Sargas' vents can be clouted instantly. Vay Kek's face can be popped without giving it chance to close back up. Jackal can be taken out with a single round after being crippled.

5 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Proof #*!%ing needed.

Just because you ignore the proof provided does not mean that it no longer exists.

[Oreades]

You know the thing that always amuses me..... is that if you /profile the people who typically use the "git gud" argument..... always seems like the bulk of them don't use explosive weapons to any significance....... but hey, ya'll just git gud~

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 hours ago, Oreades said:

You know the thing that always amuses me..... is that if you /profile the people who typically use the "git gud" argument..... always seems like the bulk of them don't use explosive weapons to any significance....... but hey, ya'll just git gud~

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Saturation plays tricks on usage statistics. You might have a weapon you effectively never use, that happens to be on a loadout you use often, which adds that gameplay time up. Conversely, loadouts you use often versus playing other things in circumstances that don't feed statistics as well. My most-used explosive is going to be the Kulstar, since it's the one I have attached to a loadout I don't frequently alter.

One of my focus lens'd perma-loadouts has Frost with a Kulstar. No overextended. I can use the Kulstar fighting enemies that get inside my bubble without downing myself.

I pretty much stopped using them regularly when A) the Tonkor meta made them irrelevant and B) fixing the Tonkor meta made them weak and they've not particularly recovered.

 

I haven't had enough time to beef up and take my Kuva explosives out enough for them to show on stats. Probably won't bother if they make them lifeless potato cannons though.

[Oreades]

I will give you there can be some skew, for example back in the day when I only had Loki Prime and I used him for everything, the game still says it's my top frame even tho I haven't used him in probably two to three (or more) years. 

That said when I have to go down a several rows to hit someones first instance of a self damage weapon...... yeah....... 

Lets just say even tho Loki is supposedly my most used frame, the frames I actually use the most are still near the top of my list. 

32 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

One of my focus lens'd perma-loadouts has Frost with a Kulstar. No overextended. I can use the Kulstar fighting enemies that get inside my bubble without downing myself.

OK my first inclination is to assume that you're Kullstar is built wrong because that thing is liquid death, one of my favorite weapons btw.

Tho who knows so I'm just going to congratulate you on not having any problem with self damage weapons. 

32 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I pretty much stopped using them regularly when A) the Tonkor meta made them irrelevant and B) fixing the Tonkor meta made them weak and they've not particularly recovered.

Kinda makes me sad what they did to the Tonkor, I still remember accidentally bringing that thing to one of the accuracy MR tests and acing it. Tho to be honest by the time they'd nerfed it, I'd long since moved on to other weapons anyhow so eh~

After clinging to the meta for some time in my early days I've grown to enjoy being just outside of the meta, that way when they break said meta I don't really care too much. 

32 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I haven't had enough time to beef up and take my Kuva explosives out enough for them to show on stats.

Honestly speaking, I won't "beef up" my Kuva weapons because I find the mechanic they implemented that holds MR hostage for Forma....  I very much feel that MR should never be predicated on forced Forma investment. Forma should be used because you enjoy the weapon.

50 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Probably won't bother if they make them lifeless potato cannons though.

Not sure what the implication is there since you established with the Kulstar bit that you already don't have problems with self damage weapons so DE removing self damage would have zero effect on you, because you're already a badass........ sooooo........ six of one, half dozen of the other. 

I dunno personally I find the proposed staggering mechanic a lot more interesting than some Boshy style "LOL U DIED" nonsense coupled with their continued attempts at mitigating it through other mechanics that where never going to work and ultimately wasted resources that could have been used elsewhere. I'm looking at you mod that removes 99% of self damage when the remaining 1% was more than enough to just keep oneshotting people anyhow. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 minute ago, Oreades said:

I will give you there can be some skew, for example back in the day when I only had Loki Prime and I used him for everything, the game still says it's my top frame even tho I haven't used him in probably two to three (or more) years. 

That said when I have to go down a several rows to hit someones first instance of a self damage weapon...... yeah....... 

Lets just say even tho Loki is supposedly my most used frame, the frames I actually use the most are still near the top of my list. 

Not sure what the implication is there since you established with the Kulstar bit that you already don't have problems with self damage weapons so DE removing self damage would have zero effect on you, because you're already a badass........ sooooo........ six of one, half dozen of the other. 

I dunno personally I find the proposed staggering mechanic a lot more interesting than some Boshy style "LOL U DIED" nonsense coupled with their continued attempts at mitigating it through other mechanics that where never going to work and ultimately wasted resources that could have been used elsewhere. I'm looking at you mod that removes 99% of self damage when the remaining 1% was more than enough to just keep oneshotting people anyhow. 

Let's see. If I sort all by used, skip over categories that don't count (melee, sentinel, warframe etc) I see.. my Kulstar coming in at #14. Sancti Castanas at #15. Ogris at #19. Pretty decent to say they're Sometimes weapons.

The risk of putting myself down hard, especially because I play almost always solo, is a thrilling switch from the casual W+M1 play. I have to think, position, act and react so much more. I do kill myself sometimes, but that's because taking the step into dangerous territory is half the fun, hence Frost/Kulstar danger-close fighting. I'm fallible, but I accept that failure (and move beyond its reach). Compared to that, I'll have 'knocked myself over, whatever'. There's no joy in that, the weapon's just going to become a tool the same way I don't take Saryn+Ignis out for fun, I take it out to just clear the mission.

You're right that Cautious doesn't do its job, but I've explained why. It's just moving the goalpost when the problem is that our damage doesn't scale with mods the same way our health does. It can't be a fixed link. Solving that removes the need for Cautious almost entirely, although I suppose it could be kept in to fudge the numbers a bit for someone's taste, but it'd need a nerf down to fit with the scaling of the algorithm used.

[moodster]

On 2020-02-17 at 12:48 PM, IamLoco said:

What makes it even less consistent is, that some weapons like the Acceltra or the Tonkor / Kuva Tonkor have an arming distance. So as long as you don´t jump into your own shots, you are pretty safe. Weapons like the Kuva Ogris, Bramma etc. on the other hand will launch you into space if you accidentially hit a friendly target or even an enemie corpse that comes flying at you. Happened to me way too often... In the heat of a battle, especially when team mates also use explosives, corpses are flying around everywhere. If you hit one, you´re dead.

It makes not much sense that some frame´s abilities will protect you, while others don´t that should. Revenant´s mesmer skin will cause your hp to go down to 2 - but neither Nezha´s 3 nor Mesa´s 3 is able to prevent the huge amount of damage, often even WITH cautious shot equipped.

The problem here is that enemies have hp in the ten thousands or more, while we have only one frame, Inaros, which can get somehow close to that. So our weapons also deal ten thousands of dmg or even way more with one hit - and that´s a death sentance for most frames and defensive abilities.

My solution would be to simply apply a strong below 1 multiplier to self damage, for example a 0.05x multiplier. This way cautious shot would cause an explosion to tickle your hp, while you still get a severe but not fatal hit from a direct ogris or bramma hit. The self inflicted status effects could still kill you, but there´s at least a chance to survive it.

when was the last time you used cautious shot? you know it was buffed right? it is essentially not possible to kill yourself with cautious shot equipped now.

Regardless of cautious shot... that isn't the problem. If self damage exists it SHOULD kill you. If there is no consequence then it is pointless. IMO removing self damage is not going to have a net benefit to warframe. It will only serve to have every idiot run around with a bramma shooting at their own feet. The Bramma SHOULD KILL YOU if you are not skilled enough to use it. You shouldn't be firing it while standing on the ground with allies and enemies running around. DE claims they want to reward skill, yet they remove any skill based elements from the game.

Edited February 29, 2020 by moodster

[moodster]

On 2020-02-14 at 8:05 PM, Authoritycat said:

1. Damage Cap

2. Consistency

3. Eliminate Friendly Fire

 

1. Damage Cap: Whole heartedly disagree. If self-damage exists, it should be able to kill you and I think it SHOULD exist. However, Aside from a complete overhaul of player vs enemy EHP to normalize them... If they were to implement a damage cap it should be a % of your warframe's modded hp+shield. 

2. Consistency: Turning all self-damage into blast damage is a terrible idea... that is essentially what DE is doing, turning self-damage into a knockdown. That is just ANNOYING and frustrating (especially if the weapon deals no blast damage and has no other knockdown/stun on it). I'm also not entirely convinced EVERY splash damage weapon should have self damage. Are we going to put self knockdown on tombfinger, kuva seer, and shedu? I think only the HIGH damage launchers should have it and the ones that do have it should be NUCLEAR damage in order to necessitate the skill based playstyle associated with the danger of killing yourself. There needs to be a big reward associated with the risk. Tactical nukes should not be used like assault rifles, which is exactly what is going to happen and it will be pure CANCER.

3. Eliminate Friendly Fire: I don't entirely agree with this either. Sure, it's annoying shooting the back of a teammates head even with a rifle, but unless you have punchthrough you're not going to be shooting through a pillar or a grineer riot shield either... The same should apply to your teammate standing in front of you. Again, if you are using a launcher with enough power to clear an entire room with one shot then you should be using it tactically and shooting from the air to avoid hitting teammates or obstacles and avoid killing yourself.

I put 5 forma on my kuva ogris and bramma while doing lich murmur farming. It was frustrating at first, but didn't take long to adjust to the blast radius and different playstyle. I ended up thoroughly enjoying it... UNTIL I put cautious shot on the ogris which resulted in me just shooting wherever whenever without a care and it was BORING... 

Edited February 29, 2020 by moodster