Warframe augment slots!? Read Edits Too :)

[Steel_Rook]

This might be a bit tangential to the discussion, but... I don't think Augments should be mods in the first place, for a couple of reasons.

Right now, mods are one of our very few sources of meaningful customisation. Yes, Warframe has a lot of vectors for min/maxing stats, but very few ways to fundamentally change gameplay mechanics within a given build. It's pretty much this and Arcanes. By their nature, however, Augments aren't always a direct improvement to a Warframe. Very often they're a sidegrade, sometimes they're just minor tweaks to personal preference. As such, they can rarely compete with actual stat boosts for their own mod slots. There's significant disincentive keeping most people from using Augments to a significant degree, and certainly using more than one of them per Warframe. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I'm speaking in generalities here. The net result is that one of Warframe's most entertaining sources of personalisation and customisation is barely ever worth using over the much more practical mods which could go in those slots.

Secondly, quite a few Augments work less like customisation and more like patchwork fixes for otherwise underperforming abilities. I'd argue that the majority of Augments people actually use are in this vein. Those few Augments which work like this often come across less like an optional bit of customisation and more along the lines of "my Warframe has 7 mod slots and less capacity." In other words, it feels like I have to equip a mod just to get a complete ability set.

Personally, I'd like to see a system closer to Diablo 3's take on skills. That is to say, give each Warframe ability its own Augment slot, but ensure that Augments are only ever side-grades to the base ability. Look at something like Venari Bodyguard, for instance. Yes, it's an improvement to Khora's Venari ability in that it saves her from going down, but it comes at the cost of an increased revival timer for Venari without the ability to skip it for Energy by recasting the ability. It's not necessarily a BETTER version of Venari because it offers utility and liability in the same package. I'd like to see this approach taken to abilities across the board.

Of course, for such a system to work we'd need to have a lot more Augments - several per ability, or at least one per ability for all Warframes. For whatever reason, DE have been glacially slow at adding new Augments. It would absolutely take a concentrated effort to create a whole bunch of new Augments, to be sure. However, I feel this would result in a more personal experience with the game as we tweak our Warframe abilities into versions we're more likely to use. That would be worth the effort of creating a lot of Augments, I think, especially since few of them actually require unique art assets and not many seem to even require unique programming.

In short, I feel that Augments would work better as sidegrades attached to their respective abilities rather than ability upgrades that have to compete with our core stats.

[-NFT-Kick_ZA]

32 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

This might be a bit tangential to the discussion, but... I don't think Augments should be mods in the first place, for a couple of reasons.

Right now, mods are one of our very few sources of meaningful customisation. Yes, Warframe has a lot of vectors for min/maxing stats, but very few ways to fundamentally change gameplay mechanics within a given build. It's pretty much this and Arcanes. By their nature, however, Augments aren't always a direct improvement to a Warframe. Very often they're a sidegrade, sometimes they're just minor tweaks to personal preference. As such, they can rarely compete with actual stat boosts for their own mod slots. There's significant disincentive keeping most people from using Augments to a significant degree, and certainly using more than one of them per Warframe. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I'm speaking in generalities here. The net result is that one of Warframe's most entertaining sources of personalisation and customisation is barely ever worth using over the much more practical mods which could go in those slots.

Secondly, quite a few Augments work less like customisation and more like patchwork fixes for otherwise underperforming abilities. I'd argue that the majority of Augments people actually use are in this vein. Those few Augments which work like this often come across less like an optional bit of customisation and more along the lines of "my Warframe has 7 mod slots and less capacity." In other words, it feels like I have to equip a mod just to get a complete ability set.

Personally, I'd like to see a system closer to Diablo 3's take on skills. That is to say, give each Warframe ability its own Augment slot, but ensure that Augments are only ever side-grades to the base ability. Look at something like Venari Bodyguard, for instance. Yes, it's an improvement to Khora's Venari ability in that it saves her from going down, but it comes at the cost of an increased revival timer for Venari without the ability to skip it for Energy by recasting the ability. It's not necessarily a BETTER version of Venari because it offers utility and liability in the same package. I'd like to see this approach taken to abilities across the board.

Of course, for such a system to work we'd need to have a lot more Augments - several per ability, or at least one per ability for all Warframes. For whatever reason, DE have been glacially slow at adding new Augments. It would absolutely take a concentrated effort to create a whole bunch of new Augments, to be sure. However, I feel this would result in a more personal experience with the game as we tweak our Warframe abilities into versions we're more likely to use. That would be worth the effort of creating a lot of Augments, I think, especially since few of them actually require unique art assets and not many seem to even require unique programming.

In short, I feel that Augments would work better as sidegrades attached to their respective abilities rather than ability upgrades that have to compete with our core stats.

I definitely agree and see what you are bringing to the post and i agree with you. Augment mods should not and never be a reason to make an ability viable where without them non viable. Lets say hypothetically mods/ abilities and augments are in a good state, etc.  and allowing them into lets say the exilus slots, i think it will be a great way to validate (not the mod itself) but the utilization of augments in general.  As of now tho, augments (In my opinion) dont have a strong utilization. Dont get me wrong, yes some are used 99% of the time but only a handful are. Theres not much justifiable to use the others that arnt in use. To me that sort of limits the augment usage. 

"Of course, for such a system to work..." as for this part, yes if something like this could materialize in the future then this would be perfect. The idea i like about it, is that the UTILIZATION is there for whom ever wants to use it whenever they want too. Again I think allowing augments into exilus slots will help ALOT with the UTILIZATION of augment mods in general. This is all about making augments have a better usage in there CURRENT state.

In the end, yes i do stand by what you said and thanks for insight 😄 😄

EDIT:   Not just to me but to the concept and the general topic about augments 😄

Edited February 15, 2020 by -NFT-Kick_ZA

[Tiltskillet]

4 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

This might be a bit tangential to the discussion, but... I don't think Augments should be mods in the first place, for a couple of reasons.  . . .

 . . .

 . . . In short, I feel that Augments would work better as sidegrades attached to their respective abilities rather than ability upgrades that have to compete with our core stats.

Completely agree.  Not that it has more than a snowball's chance on an unseasonably warm day in hell of actually happening.

I think the best we can reasonably hope for--and it's still a long shot--is that DE takes a more consistent approach to the role of augments, and revisits some of the largest deviations from that approach.

[-NFT-Kick_ZA]

43 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Completely agree.  Not that it has more than a snowball's chance on an unseasonably warm day in hell of actually happening.

I think the best we can reasonably hope for--and it's still a long shot--is that DE takes a more consistent approach to the role of augments, and revisits some of the largest deviations from that approach.

Yes. Some augment work is needed. 

[Avienas]

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

This might be a bit tangential to the discussion, but... I don't think Augments should be mods in the first place, for a couple of reasons.

Hai again Rook, glad to see others still agree to my statement to the following things:

1. Warframe Augments should honestly work more like Arcanes at this point due to not only capacity constraints, but also that most of them are useless even after D.E. massive-ly buffed some with extra effects as literally +50% duration or +50% range on some.
2. The same could be said with PET PRECEPTS, namely the ones exclusive to only that pet. They need to honestly have things like Charm & Mischief and the similar mods for the kubrows, moas, sentinels, etc. just be innate and have those special augments be an unlock feature so any pet of that type (say Carrier with the Looter augment), could just be toggled on and off and if D.E. is still worried about balanced, have a cap of 3 of thse can be toggled on at a time.
3. Plus lets not even forget about the syndicate weapon augment mods, those things have not been ever updated and some REALLY need to be stretched out on the description like how Winds of Purity only works on Furis, not Akfuris, not Dex Furis, but basically among the many `Single Kamas` of Dakka Pistols in the game. Certainly be nice if D.E. ever got around to revamping the syndicates, that they maybe add 1 maybe 3 new weapons with augments for each syndicate, but considering current mod bench constraints due to the auto-lock meta setups, pretty much means they have to be VERY op to justify using them over other mods that are likely used as meta for weapon builds.

Quote

Right now, mods are one of our very few sources of meaningful customisation. Yes, Warframe has a lot of vectors for min/maxing stats, but very few ways to fundamentally change gameplay mechanics within a given build. It's pretty much this and Arcanes. By their nature, however, Augments aren't always a direct improvement to a Warframe. Very often they're a sidegrade, sometimes they're just minor tweaks to personal preference. As such, they can rarely compete with actual stat boosts for their own mod slots. There's significant disincentive keeping most people from using Augments to a significant degree, and certainly using more than one of them per Warframe. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I'm speaking in generalities here. The net result is that one of Warframe's most entertaining sources of personalisation and customisation is barely ever worth using over the much more practical mods which could go in those slots.

Secondly, quite a few Augments work less like customisation and more like patchwork fixes for otherwise underperforming abilities. I'd argue that the majority of Augments people actually use are in this vein. Those few Augments which work like this often come across less like an optional bit of customisation and more along the lines of "my Warframe has 7 mod slots and less capacity." In other words, it feels like I have to equip a mod just to get a complete ability set.

Honestly i would use the term of Add-on Install instead of customization, especially since some augment mods just straight up add another effect on the ability without changing it at all. But ultimately, Unless the augment gets to go in the exilus slot capable placement, most would likely be 100% ignored, unless it needs it for its build, like Frost`s bubble. Since without, he loses alot of what he is only good for atm, locking down a spot with a bullet-proof bubble and slowing/freezing anything that gets in close to shoot it from inside.

Hell there is a reason why i now point out a bunch of augments that allow warframes to apply elemental buffs to allies or to themselves (smite infusion) and augments like equinox`s energy transfer(we should of got the original version they pitched...) or the fact Rhino cant even refresh his ironskin, are some ridiculous levels of B.S. on why they are not innate functions of those warframes, since outside of those who already used the augments before they got those buffs, the usage on them is likely quite non-existent still except for those who are eccentric on builds.

Quote

Personally, I'd like to see a system closer to Diablo 3's take on skills. That is to say, give each Warframe ability its own Augment slot, but ensure that Augments are only ever side-grades to the base ability. Look at something like Venari Bodyguard, for instance. Yes, it's an improvement to Khora's Venari ability in that it saves her from going down, but it comes at the cost of an increased revival timer for Venari without the ability to skip it for Energy by recasting the ability. It's not necessarily a BETTER version of Venari because it offers utility and liability in the same package. I'd like to see this approach taken to abilities across the board.

Honestly this is reminding me how warframes used to have to equip thar abilities in slots and had capacity costs and had to be ranked up too. Certainly was a rather as`sine design since i don`t think auras were even introduced at the time yet. Which pretty much people straight up likely skipped equipping some of the abilities to have capacity cost. I dont think D.E. will go thru with letting us be able to equip augments in every slot since this was actually an idea i vouched about a year or two ago...

But then pretty much included that every single ability would need to get atleast 2 to 3 augments and we all know how much of a head-ache it would take for them to program all that stuff after figuring out USEFUL type of augments and rebalancing each of them.

Sort of why i settled with they should just straight up give us an augment slot, which could be placed to the right of the exilus slot and it would have NO cost to stop with the cost creep that warframe currently has with builds these days, which honestly could triple as an excuse for them to REMOVE the zenurik polarity from the modding bench and update certain polarities (LIKE THE FREAKING COLD ELEMENT SILVER MODS with Vazarin!) to be more streamline and match a theme where certain polarities are for certain things. 

Quote

Of course, for such a system to work we'd need to have a lot more Augments - several per ability, or at least one per ability for all Warframes. For whatever reason, DE have been glacially slow at adding new Augments. It would absolutely take a concentrated effort to create a whole bunch of new Augments, to be sure. However, I feel this would result in a more personal experience with the game as we tweak our Warframe abilities into versions we're more likely to use. That would be worth the effort of creating a lot of Augments, I think, especially since few of them actually require unique art assets and not many seem to even require unique programming.

In short, I feel that Augments would work better as sidegrades attached to their respective abilities rather than ability upgrades that have to compete with our core stats.

To further extend about the extra augment thing, They would need to get hell-uva lazy where the augments just turn into specific ability modifers, similar to corrupted mods but only for that specific ability.

Sort of like increasing the explosion radius of ember`s fireball by +50% range, but it deals -50% strength just as a rough example. Since the values could be different. Though if we did get 4 no-cost slots for each warframe ability, having customization modifiers like that would not be bad, but since we already got actual augments, that would likely not work unless there is some extra effects attached to each one. Which again, could mean alot more coding then just a mod similar to a corrupted mod.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Avienas

[-NFT-Kick_ZA]

12 minutes ago, Avienas said:

Hai again Rook, glad to see others still agree to my statement to the following things:

1. Warframe Augments should honestly work more like Arcanes at this point due to not only capacity constraints, but also that most of them are useless even after D.E. massive-ly buffed some with extra effects as literally +50% duration or +50% range on some.
2. The same could be said with PET PRECEPTS, namely the ones exclusive to only that pet. They need to honestly have things like Charm & Mischief and the similar mods for the kubrows, moas, sentinels, etc. just be innate and have those special augments be an unlock feature so any pet of that type (say Carrier with the Looter augment), could just be toggled on and off and if D.E. is still worried about balanced, have a cap of 3 of thse can be toggled on at a time.
3. Plus lets not even forget about the syndicate weapon augment mods, those things have not been ever updated and some REALLY need to be stretched out on the description like how Winds of Purity only works on Furis, not Akfuris, not Dex Furis, but basically among the many `Single Kamas` of Dakka Pistols in the game. Certainly be nice if D.E. ever got around to revamping the syndicates, that they maybe add 1 maybe 3 new weapons with augments for each syndicate, but considering current mod bench constraints due to the auto-lock meta setups, pretty much means they have to be VERY op to justify using them over other mods that are likely used as meta for weapon builds.

PG augment mods post please.

 

14 minutes ago, Avienas said:

Hell there is a reason why i now point out a bunch of augments that allow warframes to apply elemental buffs to allies or to themselves (smite infusion) and augments like equinox`s energy transfer(we should of got the original version they pitched...) or the fact Rhino cant even refresh his ironskin, are some ridiculous levels of B.S. on why they are not innate functions of those warframes, since outside of those who already used the augments before they got those buffs, the usage on them is likely quite non-existent still except for those who are eccentric on builds. 

To further extend about the extra augment thing, They would need to get hell-uva lazy where the augments just turn into specific ability modifers, similar to corrupted mods but only for that specific ability.

First part on this quoted... i agree, some augments should be apart of the base ability regardless, no question. If DE somehow get all augments to be in sort of "equally viable" state (best i can describe it) then being able to use then exilus slots will be a great way to improve the utilization of ALL augments and not just the "Good/Must have" augments. I think doing this in the current state of augments will also help boost the motivation to fix said augments and abilites that are useless/ should have base functions as augments. 

As to second part of quote... I was also thinking about this a while back. Maybe have one extra slot per ability for each frame, that can be used by X type of mods, or whatever. Will also be a GREAT way to personalize your build and truly make it your own. Maybe to balance this, if hypothetically it becomes part of the game then maybe remove a normal mod slot or two then insert this type of mod mechanic. Could be a really intresting feature to have and the tihnk about with regards to not only being unique in style (fashion frame) but also unique in game mechanics and play style.

 

Thanks for you input tenno. I really do appreciate it.

Long Live The Queens. JK LOL GG HF

[(PSN)thegarada]

13 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

Change is scary. So scary. Much fear. Must spend three hours crafting carefully worded argument containing at least three uses of "rofl", "git gud" and "shutup noob" and then get angry when no one reads it, then cry alone in the dark while eating cheetos. Change.... so scary. change...

Meh. Any major systemic change around here is greeted kinda like the plague. 

*Dog comic "change plz" then angry dog "no change, only change"*

But what is the change here? You are just adding one more mod slot, effectively increasing them from 9 to 10. You have not "systematically" changed anything. This is just power creep. Do we need to further increase frames' power?

Edited February 15, 2020 by (PS4)thegarada

[Avienas]

3 hours ago, -NFT-Kick_ZA said:

PG augment mods post please.

Sadly i do not know what you were saying by P.G....Panda Gary? Panting Giraffees? Post-game? Gonna guess the last one. Because it would be rather nice if augments fit better as a post-game kind of feel build setup. Even if warframe does not have a post-game.

Think the proper terminology would be to call it Advance-Game augment mods. Because only the most experienced of experimenters can find things like setting up a doggo to be a armor buff lord and can slash proc & spread death with ease. Which is basically one of the few times i have seen someone actually made a pet a viable DPS, besides just using the hunter mod set with Inaros.

3 hours ago, -NFT-Kick_ZA said:

First part on this quoted... i agree, some augments should be apart of the base ability regardless, no question. If DE somehow get all augments to be in sort of "equally viable" state (best i can describe it) then being able to use then exilus slots will be a great way to improve the utilization of ALL augments and not just the "Good/Must have" augments. I think doing this in the current state of augments will also help boost the motivation to fix said augments and abilites that are useless/ should have base functions as augments.

Pretty much, As i stated on many subjects, its ultimately flips back to one single factor: D.E. Needs to Go Back And Fix Up Old Stuff. Though i can appreciate a new corpus ship which comes with a new game mode of sorts. But in all honesty its just sounding like the Jupiter gas city rework all-over again, which was nice, especially since the rooms are much more sizable and you are not running thru annoyingly narrow pathways and what not. But that will likely fade away after the hype and D.E. needs to up the ante on getting the stuff that can apply to the entire game itself, then just brush up only specific parts of content only.

3 hours ago, -NFT-Kick_ZA said:

 As to second part of quote... I was also thinking about this a while back. Maybe have one extra slot per ability for each frame, that can be used by X type of mods, or whatever. Will also be a GREAT way to personalize your build and truly make it your own. Maybe to balance this, if hypothetically it becomes part of the game then maybe remove a normal mod slot or two then insert this type of mod mechanic. Could be a really intresting feature to have and the tihnk about with regards to not only being unique in style (fashion frame) but also unique in game mechanics and play style.

K first of all, No, no removal of slots right now. Builds are ridiculously stupid right now that D.E. needs to first get around to making mods that give health/armor/shields get removed and drastically boost the innate values warframes have with special mods like armored agility or buff-type mods like mecha pulse being some exceptions. Namely that the mod benches need to be tidied up and have alot of auto-pick stuff integrated.

One of my 3 suggestions in previous posts, DID include them redoing the entire mod bench and have mod bench `sectors` which can only use specific groups of mods, like durability mods for one of them, warframe powers for another, utility type mods for another and likely a special bench which would cover exilus mods, augments and maybe one other thing. Which would of likely require them re-designing the capacity costs and polarity system too of course, But it pretty much falls under the concept of fixing the not enough mod bench space argument a tad, by having sections for only specific mods on warframes, pets and weapons. So people are not just simply stacking 4 to 8 warframe ability modifiers and no durability at all.

 

Never the less, it seems like D.E. actually addressing these issues, before new war, has just as much of a chance as i see one of the mobile games i enjoy, Honkai impact 3rd, Finally deciding to reduce the stamina costs for open world tasks (which tends to cost a chunk for each of the 3 rotations per week of them).

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

5 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

But what is the change here? You are just adding one more mod slot, effectively increasing them from 9 to 10. You have not "systematically" changed anything. This is just power creep. Do we need to further increase frames' power?

If you really want to know? Yes. The entire purpose of augment mods is to make the frame do something that it couldn't do by it's self. It's why augments aren't released on the day a frame is released. It takes time for them to gather information and figure out where a frame is falling short and what can be done to address it. And they are basing that decision based on math depicting the frame already operating at it's maximum build potential. 

Inserting the augment into one of the existing mod slots asks for the player to actually lose power in order to incorporate a mod that was designed around the frame's maximum potential. Which is why DE usually has to buff the mod after it's released because they failed to consider that the maximum potential build they designed the mod to function with, is broken by the mod rather than improved by it. The mod is a bandaid. You apply it OVER the injury. You don't use your dirty finger nails to dig the scab out, deliberately pull the wound open, and then apply the bandage once it's oozing blood everywhere. 

Warframes are not built to be underpowered. They are built to function in the game exactly as they are. Warframe augments are designed to cover shortfalls or failings of the base frame design. They're basically a "choose your buff" instead of DE having to go in and specifically buff the frame's innate physics. But because the augment was based on statistics of frame use at it's maximum potential, the augments typically fall short, resulting in them having to be reworked later.

Having the augments fit into an augment slot doesn't power creep. Having four augment slots so you can plug in ALL the augs. That would be power creep. But having one free slot just for augments? That just allows the augment to work the way it was designed to, and would mean less cases of them having to go back and rework the aug later. 

Here. Lets put it this way. If you are trying to create a chemical reaction, In an 8 oz beaker, you combine different chemicals to create a compound. 2 parts this, three parts that, one part this and that, in the end leaving you at the eight oz mark. Then you realize you haven't added the chemical reagent that will catalyze the reaction you're looking for, which is one oz of fluid. But the compound is already mixed, you can't just divide the chemicals back to their base components, not easily anyway, so you figure "what the hell" and just pour off the top oz of fluid from the beaker, and replace it with the oz of reagent to catalyze the reaction. What could go wrong right? A lot. A lot could go wrong. The reaction could be stronger than you anticipated, or weaker, or you might get a completely unexpected reaction that you had not even planned for. That's what happens with Aug mods. DE bases them on an optimal build but because the build incorporating the aug is by nature not optimal, they can't really predict what the outcome will be and it is usually less than they intended leading them to have to spend more time on the project later, and remember time = money. 

It's not power creep because the augment is in response to something that the frame is lacking, hence it is there to augment the frame's abilities to improve it's function.

[(PSN)Hayden_TenZero]

I was thinking about this the other day. My thoughts were too add 2 or 4 augment slots without altering mod capacities. This would give players a choice between sacrificing tank or other mods for augments, much like it is now, however players would also have the option to forma the slots to reduce or eliminate any sacrifice in their builds.

Edited February 16, 2020 by (PS4)Tennorokin

[-NFT-Kick_ZA]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Tennorokin said:

I was thinking about this the other day. My thoughts were too add 2 or 4 augment slots without altering mod capacities. This would give players a choice between sacrificing tank or other mods for augments, much like it is now, however players would also have the option to forma the slots to reduce or eliminate any sacrifice in their builds.

Indeed my thoughts. If they can do this then awesome. 

[-NFT-Kick_ZA]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

It's not power creep because the augment is in response to something that the frame is lacking, hence it is there to augment the frame's abilities to improve it's function.

Yeah thats my idea and thought too. Its already part of the game... We need better utilization of the augments and to do this... Is a way to motivate the players to use them. 

[-NFT-Kick_ZA]

But i personally think to start off with... Step one... Allow augments into exlius slots. Step two... Look at what reworks we can do with augments with data collected if implemented. Step 3.... Look at adding augments slots: compare with pros and cons and go from there...  One step at a time and slowly to do it right. 

[Steel_Rook]

20 hours ago, Avienas said:

Honestly i would use the term of Add-on Install instead of customization, especially since some augment mods just straight up add another effect on the ability without changing it at all. But ultimately, Unless the augment gets to go in the exilus slot capable placement, most would likely be 100% ignored, unless it needs it for its build, like Frost`s bubble. Since without, he loses alot of what he is only good for atm, locking down a spot with a bullet-proof bubble and slowing/freezing anything that gets in close to shoot it from inside.

Warframe Augments should honestly work more like Arcanes at this point due to not only capacity constraints, but also that most of them are useless even after D.E. massive-ly buffed some with extra effects as literally +50% duration or +50% range on some.

The reason I say "customisation" is I'm referring to the broader concept of players adapting their Warframes to work closer to how the player would prefer, rather than just "making them stronger." And mind you, I'm including pure stat tweaks into that, as well, though I'd probably go for a lot more than 50%. How a Warframe or an ability "works" is defined in large part by the mechanics attached to it, sure, but to a very large part as well by its stats. The example I gave before of the Space Marine Plasma Cannon going from being able to fire 2 shots before overheating to being able to fire 5 is along those lines - it alters how players approach such a weapon. I'm also not entirely convinced we even need trade-offs, either. In fact, may I side-track a little bit into the concept of "horizontal progression?"

Way back in the day on a different forum, I wrote extensively on the idea of a game balanced entirely via horizontal progression, where the only "cost" of any player choice is the choices not taken. Now imagine a version of Warframe where every ability had, let's say, 4 available Augments. Imagine also that they came with an augment already pre-installed the moment you got the ability. Let's take something I'm intimately familiar with - Inaros' Scarab Swarm. Let's say that when you first got Scarab Swarm, it came with the Negation Swarm mod preinstalled - you have that from the moment you unlock the ability. Now let's say you are later able to acquire three other augments. Protective Swarm would double the amount of armour provided by Scarab Armour while reducing the health cost for applying it to 10 per 1% (down from 29). Parasitic Swarm would change Scarab Swarm from a projectile to a 15-meter AoE and also increase cross-contamination range to 20 meters from every affected enemy. Loyal Swarm would double the health conversion from Scarab Swarm and double the range at which players can heal.

As you can see, most of these examples are pure status tweaks. I'm sure different players might look at them and go "Well, obviously X version is the best!" I personally swear by Negation Swarm and wouldn't give it up for the world, but I know plenty of people prefer Scarab Swarm for the control, or even the healing. All of these versions are superior to the default, this is true. However, because the default ability already comes with an Augment of its own, equipping another one is always going to be a trade. While it's possible that a meta may develop with a "best in slot" Augment, this is both fixable and more so the fault of the Augment designers than the core system. Crucially, this way ability behaviour doesn't need to compete with "more health" and "more armour" and "more duration" and such. Again, this WOULD indeed take a crap-ton of work and fine-tuning, but I do believe DE are capable of this.

 

20 hours ago, Avienas said:

Hell there is a reason why i now point out a bunch of augments that allow warframes to apply elemental buffs to allies or to themselves (smite infusion) and augments like equinox`s energy transfer(we should of got the original version they pitched...) or the fact Rhino cant even refresh his ironskin, are some ridiculous levels of B.S. on why they are not innate functions of those warframes, since outside of those who already used the augments before they got those buffs, the usage on them is likely quite non-existent still except for those who are eccentric on builds.

That one irks the hell out of me, yes. Rhino is probably one of the biggest offenders here. His Ironclad Charge is basically mandatory for his kit and should have been part of the ability itself rather than an Augment. While not similarly mandatory, Iron Shrapnel just feels like something Iron Skin should already be able to do. I mean, imagine if you needed an augment for Freeze in order to pop a Frost Snowglobe. That's about where that sits. Now compare this to something like Atlas' Titanic Rumbler - it grants one Rumbler instead of two, but the one is much bigger and tougher. Better? Maybe, depending on what you prefer. An integral part of his kit? Hardly - it's a choice. The same goes for Tectonic Fracture - it grants him three stone walls, but he can't roll them into boulders. Again, not an integral part of his kit, but a give-and-take alteration of one of his abilities. Frankly, that's a trade I'd take... If it didn't cost me a slot for essentially next to nothing.

I'm of the opinion that a lot of the augments for older Warframes ought to be rolled into their abilities by default. Either that, or go with what I suggested above - one Augment slot per ability with a "default" Augment shipping with the ability itself. Maybe Rhino's Iron Skin can just ship with Iron Shrapnel, but alternately have a few others that players can acquire instead? I already went through the motions designing new ones for Inaros' Scarab Swarm so I don't want to overload this post on examples. Suffice it to say it's doable, however. Augments ought to be a source for customisation, not fixes to old underperforming abilities.

 

20 hours ago, Avienas said:

But then pretty much included that every single ability would need to get atleast 2 to 3 augments and we all know how much of a head-ache it would take for them to program all that stuff after figuring out USEFUL type of augments and rebalancing each of them.

Would it be such a headache, though? I mean, granted - DE mismanaged Railjack so badly that they pissed away two entire years to deliver an undercooked bare-bones tech demo so it's not like you don't have a point. However, I feel that creating a bunch of Augments needn't be that costly, slow or difficult. Not all of them need to fundamentally alter the mechanics of an ability. It's nice if they could, sure, but you can get away with large give-and-take stat tweaks for an ability's core stats, re-weighing it into a different role. You'll note from the Scarab Swarm examples I gave, only two had actual mechanics changes - ignoring status effects for Scarab Armour and turning Scarab Swarm from an invisible projectile into an AoE. The other two are more focused on stats - one means more armour and less cost, the other more heal and more range.

Hell, you brought up Syndicate Augments for our guns. Most of those are dirt simple. Scattered Justice for the Hek is just +200% Multishot while Entropy Burst for the Supra is +20% Status Chance. And honestly... Yeah, those have the same issues of having to compete with standard mods. Maybe Scattered Justice can compete with Hell's Chamber, but Entropy Burst has a harder time competing with the standard 60/60 Elemental/Status mods. I don't want to go out-of-scope and discuss how those might be tweaked, but suffice it to say that I feel the same issues apply there, as well.

[Avienas]

41 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Would it be such a headache, though? I mean, granted - DE mismanaged Railjack so badly that they pissed away two entire years to deliver an undercooked bare-bones tech demo so it's not like you don't have a point. However, I feel that creating a bunch of Augments needn't be that costly, slow or difficult. Not all of them need to fundamentally alter the mechanics of an ability. It's nice if they could, sure, but you can get away with large give-and-take stat tweaks for an ability's core stats, re-weighing it into a different role. You'll note from the Scarab Swarm examples I gave, only two had actual mechanics changes - ignoring status effects for Scarab Armour and turning Scarab Swarm from an invisible projectile into an AoE. The other two are more focused on stats - one means more armour and less cost, the other more heal and more range.

The issue is them not only likely having to make new interaction effects, but actually make them meaningful, because though i like things like Pilfering Strangledome if i decide to use Khora as a loot frame, i honestly feel like that is on the opposite spectrum of the meaningful case. 

Where they just literally took hydroid`s pilfering swarm augment and simply replace the 2 lines of text that likely dic`tate that it would only work on X warframe and Y ability. So even if they do stack, its still feels more lazy then them just giving augments that massively modify the duraton, range, power strength and/or efficiency of a single ability and nothing else.

 

Now sadly due to certain R.L things suddenly pop up i have to keep this short, since i was going to point out a few augments who are major banes of bad design, but i will just quickly state Titania`s beguiling lantern is one of them, since you normally never want to be out of razorwing on Titania(aka be doing Dakka or ability casting), where even if the lantern will lock the target down from moving as one of the recent `fixes` for her. IT should of honestly been a +50~75% dmg bonus that also applied to regular weapons and her razorflies too. Which would of been a fair trade off of it working on more things then just melee.

...Especially since they broke arch-wing type melee aka her own exalted melee to be quite useless in combat in general due to its inability to auto-move next to nearby enemies when pressing melee originally, which made arch-melee actually bear-able to use.

...and this is not even taking into account that outside of her 4th ability, Titania`s first 3 abilities are more about buffs/debuff type effects where the first 2 cannot even deal direct damage and the 3rd can deal heat damage(which if it cant cause heat status procs then RIP further), but most likely forget it even exists because lantern normally floated all over the place and the damage range was MEH plus the usual b.s. of `diminishing damage based on range from enemy).

AKA, Lantern should of honestly just been merged with spell bind (which can hit multiple enemies  with C.C. and can be used for status cleansing & immunity), just like how the full moon effect is neglible for Titania, when her razor flies should of just got buffed per tribute active, since any pet without a very specific build is useless as a DPS (which ironically said build kind of requires your warframe to be a tankie and/or run high crit/status chance weapons for the LINK mods to give those pets any feasible damage).

Quote

Hell, you brought up Syndicate Augments for our guns. Most of those are dirt simple. Scattered Justice for the Hek is just +200% Multishot while Entropy Burst for the Supra is +20% Status Chance. And honestly... Yeah, those have the same issues of having to compete with standard mods. Maybe Scattered Justice can compete with Hell's Chamber, but Entropy Burst has a harder time competing with the standard 60/60 Elemental/Status mods. I don't want to go out-of-scope and discuss how those might be tweaked, but suffice it to say that I feel the same issues apply there, as well.

Most are simple indeed, To where almost i would like that some of the augments SHOULD of got raw stat buffs to act as REPLACEMENT mods for certain mods like serration, split chamber, etc. But sadly it would be better off if they could just simply be put in a exilus slot, if you were to take into account that they are exclusive to a very specific weapon and in most cases, cannot even be used on the variant of the weapon, which normally people would use them over certain weapons. With special exceptions like the Supra Vandal cause screw consistency and the opposite end being the Furis augment which cant work on Akfuris or Dex furis.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Avienas

[(PSN)SrebX]

On 2020-02-15 at 11:06 AM, -NFT-Kick_ZA said:

Yes of course. Alot of frame augments are excellent.  I mean augments are in the game already the system is there already.... So lets encourage USAGE of what we already have. Allowing augments in both normal and exilus slots will be a mini power creep yes. But all that is already in the game and available. The idea is to get people to use them and see. I mean i only really get people that use augments from like MR 15+ and most of the times its because they watched a youtube video about. Augments are as inviting to probably most of the lower MR player base compared to the higher MR half. This will be great for everyone. We got them...lets use them. 

"We got themm.. Let's use them" - Your point is invalid, They're already powerful and we're already using them.

Having such power in the exilus slot, or even worse, in an additional Augment slot, would make exilus slots irrelevant and would eliminate a lot of buildcraft

Just think about the principles of buildcraft- you're giving some stuff up in order to get other stuff, it's a give and take and it's a very dynamic and engaging choice to make, but if you'll be able to just use all the mods then you're not giving anything up, buildcraft is not interesting and the game is boring. 

 

As for the argument about lower MR players- Look. Buildcraft is a pretty complicated system, it takes time and knowledge to understand it's abilities and mechanics and Augments are some of the more complicated mods out there. I wouldn't expect a newish player to use them because I wouldn't expect them to fully understand it yet, so just give it time and let those new players discover the system. Stop trying to oversimplify a deep interesting system. 

Edited February 16, 2020 by (PS4)SrebX

[Avienas]

1 hour ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

"We got themm.. Let's use them" - Your point is invalid, They're already powerful and we're already using them.

Having such power in the exilus slot, or even worse, in an additional Augment slot, would make exilus slots irrelevant and would eliminate a lot of buildcraft

Ah great the white knights are present. But seriously man the point is that D.E. only just recently added weapon exilus slots...Except the fact the are not on melee weapons and exalted weapons either. Which granted the latter already skips things like blood rush for the melee exalted (ultimate sadness thar). But it still stands that plenty are automatically ignored because things like AUGUR Secrets/Message/Reach exist for people just to give a universal buff to all the warframe abilities. Where even if literally 2 outta 4 of excalibur`s abilities are hot garbage and the third is literally integrated into the 4th as a more easy to use blind, it certainly would be nice if we had situations where we could have 2 augments on a warframe, but D.E. is never going to get around to fixing the core issues with the mod bench, the fact that a bunch of mods are mandatory except for those special cases where people just abuse certain warframe abilities to just C.C. everything into oblivion, Which in cases known as LIMBO just stacks more duration and/or range to just yeet more targets with his Stasis and his `F-you anything that aint a nullifier bubble` sphere.

Quote

Just think about the principles of buildcraft- you're giving some stuff up in order to get other stuff, it's a give and take and it's a very dynamic and engaging choice to make, but if you'll be able to just use all the mods then you're not giving anything up, buildcraft is not interesting and the game is boring. 

Build craft only works when customization is a choice. Literally any person who has gotten several weeks of progress in will likely know that most builds have to have 2 durability mods minimum whether its Health, Armor, Adaptation, Rolling Guard or even Shields for cases like Mag, Trinity, Harrow & Hildryn. With pretty much 4 or more mod spots sorely for energy, range, duration, power strength and efficiency.

With exceptions like Titania`s razorwing, Frost`s bubble, One of Ember`s 2 or so augments for free heals or free energy and so on and so on(Not Mesa though because he gets a FREE CARD with her able to use her augment on the exilus as a major F-u card for others that need augment mods for thar builds, while those who main her just enjoy the easy slot in for peace maker rolling abuse).

Quote

As for the argument about lower MR players- Look. Buildcraft is a pretty complicated system, it takes time and knowledge to understand it's abilities and mechanics and Augments are some of the more complicated mods out there. I wouldn't expect a newish player to use them because I wouldn't expect them to fully understand it yet, so just give it time and let those new players discover the system. Stop trying to oversimplify a deep interesting system. 

Ain`t nothing complicated on build craft, the issue is warframe`s build craft is literally just a blank lego pad panel with a number slapped on it and you can only put as many lego blocks as long as the total count on all the lego blocks u are using does not exceed the total your allowed on that lego pad panel. The issue is that so many parts are mandatory to have any decent stable build that by the time you covered all those, you barely have any cost, slot space or flexibility to get our creative builds running.

Cause if someone were to see you running certain set mods cause the have fancy effects, they are likely going to slap  you for ignoring extra range on C.C. effects, more duration and less cost on keeping buffs up so your not constantly begging others for pancakes cause your build is expensive on the costs and you didnt think to put any way to balance cost and so on and so on.

 

In the early days of warframe, it was FINE because we didnt have set mods, we did not have exilus type mods, we did not have corrupted mods and we especially did not have acolyte mods like old-ver maiming strike, blood rush and even condition overload to an extent acting as auto clog mods that further limited build creativity cause FREE BUILD slots stopped being a thing.

Closest thing we had before on changes to the mod bench itself, before finally getting weapon exilus, were umbral mods aka another set of mods with a unique polarity to further mess with creative building and now D.E. decided we can pretty much, get those umbral forma to make them viable to have more then umbral intensify on, as a ridiculously hard to get drop rate thru anomaly spamming, because they could not just leave it on nightwave as a progression-al reward. Which even having umbral forma as a sortie reward would of made alot more dang sense.

 

So YEAH, warframe does not simply need NEW mods, it needs a refinement on the bench itself which will act as a nice power-up for the tenno to deal with the power-creep on enemies have been getting between rail-jack super durable enemies, freaking officers immune to status effects, kuva liches in general and the fact we will now be OFTEN dealing with sentient enemies soon in railjack missions, which considering they are going to be loaded with many damage adaptation memes, is going to require us to re-do alot of builds more for durability then get YEET`d by level 50+ sentients, which we all know how FUN and easy it is to die to those things thru the Anomaly Sentient ship `farming` and the high level Battalysts and what now, who just like doing things like invulnerable whirlwinds we cannot even interrupt them from doing.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Avienas

[Steel_Rook]

3 hours ago, Avienas said:

The issue is them not only likely having to make new interaction effects, but actually make them meaningful, because though i like things like Pilfering Strangledome if i decide to use Khora as a loot frame, i honestly feel like that is on the opposite spectrum of the meaningful case. 

Probably not a great example since I feel that loot-boosting abilities just should not exist, but I see your point. In order for my proposed system to have merit, individual augments would need to be meaningful. However, I think we may be overstating what it takes for that to happen. One of my go-to examples for meaningful "augments" - and you may have noticed this in the past - is WH40K Space Marine's Perks system because it makes characters within the same class and loadout still behave distinctly differently. Thing is, most of those are just basic stat tweaks - more health, more armour, more damage, less overheat, less armour recovery cooldown, etc. The reason "basic stat tweaks" work in that game is two-fold - base character stats are typically VERY low and the buffs offered by Perks are typically VERY high. For instance, standard armour regeneration cooldown in that game is 4 seconds, which is a long time when you're near death. Artificer Armour reduces this down to 1 second, which puts it low enough that simply breaking line of sight will begin regenerating armour. That's a tremendous boost to survivability, to the point where I go from having to camp a safe cover spot to confidently tanking enemy fire and trading with larger Orks.

What I'm getting at is that because our behaviour is informed by stats, then basic stat tweaks can tweak behaviour and the "feel" of abilities. The trick is to target a stat which is naturally very low and boost it significantly enough to make an immediate, appreciable difference to the player in moment-to-moment gameplay. At this point, it might start to seem like I'm about to ask for ability nerfs in order to create these "low stats," but in this case I don't think this is strictly necessary. Rather, I can envision a system where all currently-existing abilities are reimagined AS already being tweaked by an Augment. To give you a specific example, let's take Atlas' Rumblers, for example. Let's reimagine this ability and say it only spawns a SINGLE Rumbler with its stats unchanged, but give everyone who has the ability an augment for free called "Twin Rumblers," which allows the ability to spawn... Well, two Rumblers. That then gives you a "low" stat which could be improved. An alternate Augment would be the one we already have - Titanic Rumbler. Perhaps a third augment might entirely remove the single Runbler's attack abilities but allow it to periodically Petrify enemies within some range, etc.

In short, we can reimagine existing Warframe abilities where they currently stand as a weaker ability already boosted by a default Augment. We can then offer alternative Augments which boost the ability in other directions, at the cost of losing that default Augment and what it does. Now, I know this is going to hurt some abilities pretty badly. Say if Rhino had to give up his Charge damage in return for Ironclad Charge, that might not be a great idea. I would certainly cry bloody murder if I lost armour to use Negation Swarm or some such. I don't believe my proposal is fully applicable to Warframe as it stands right NOW. Rather, I believe significant ability and augment rebalance would need to happen for such a change to take place. In a lot of cases, I might just bake some abilities' existing Augments into them as defaults, rather than trying to contrive a new weakness. Rhino is a good example, I feel the Frost Snowglobe freeze augment could be made default (thus losing it if you want more health, more Snowglobes, the ability to shoot into it or what have you) and a few others. Just because I want to shift part of abilities' power to an implicit default Augment doesn't mean that's the right way go about all of them.

I believe that it's possible to create a large number of meaningful ability Augments - potentially enough to have several per Warframe ability - as long as we don't require them to always change the ability's mechanics fundamentally. Augments which simply tweak stats could still be enough to change the "feel" of an ability without altering the underlying implementation of how it works. Obviously I'm not against that and I believe there should probably be at least one of those per ability, but those aren't the only kind which would work in this context.

 

4 hours ago, Avienas said:

With special exceptions like the Supra Vandal cause screw consistency and the opposite end being the Furis augment which cant work on Akfuris or Dex furis.

Off-topic, but I believe that's because DE treat single and dual weapons as different weapons rather than different variants of the same weapon. For instance, the Viper can use the Stinging Truth mod. The Twin Vipers and the Twin Vipers Wraith can't, but the single Viper Wraith can. I assume the same applies to the Furis vs. the Akfuris and Dex Furis.

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

"We got themm.. Let's use them" - Your point is invalid, They're already powerful and we're already using them. Having such power in the exilus slot, or even worse, in an additional Augment slot, would make exilus slots irrelevant and would eliminate a lot of buildcraft

I don't know that anyone's arguing that simply adding an Augment slot with no other changes would be a good idea, but I certainly don't assert that it is. Certain Augments are fairly powerful, as you said, and certain abilities seem almost fully intended to work with their corresponding Augment. As I mentioned above, any change in this vein - be it a Warframe Augment slot or one per every ability - would implicitly require a balance pass across most if not all Augments. Some are powerful, yes, and would probably need to be tweaked - maybe some of their power moved over to the core ability. Some suck ass and nobody in their right mind would use them. Most exist somewhere in-between.

Right now, augments HAVE to compete with all other Warframe mods by virtue of how the system is designed. In a lot of cases, DE don't seem to have realised this, and thus released a bunch of Augments which are "neat" to have or "complete" an ability but don't merit a slot of their own. With the systems being proposed here, Augments would now have to compete with each other, either cross-ability or even with other Augments within the same ability as I'm proposing. That naturally requires additional work to prepare for, but... Everything in Warframe requires additional work to prepare for. Even new content often leaves a footprint on the rest of the game which needs to be accounted for ahead of time. "Hey, here's Vacuum but for Beasts! Oh, dear... that doesn't work with how Vacuum works now. We need to change it!" That sort of thing.

To be honest, I've wanted DE to take a long critical look at the game's existing Augments and clean that mess up. The idea of Augments is solid and I definitely want more of them, but a lot of the ones we have just aren't very well made.

[Avienas]

7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Probably not a great example since I feel that loot-boosting abilities just should not exist, but I see your point. In order for my proposed system to have merit, individual augments would need to be meaningful. However, I think we may be overstating what it takes for that to happen. One of my go-to examples for meaningful "augments" - and you may have noticed this in the past - is WH40K Space Marine's Perks system because it makes characters within the same class and loadout still behave distinctly differently. Thing is, most of those are just basic stat tweaks - more health, more armour, more damage, less overheat, less armour recovery cooldown, etc. The reason "basic stat tweaks" work in that game is two-fold - base character stats are typically VERY low and the buffs offered by Perks are typically VERY high. For instance, standard armour regeneration cooldown in that game is 4 seconds, which is a long time when you're near death. Artificer Armour reduces this down to 1 second, which puts it low enough that simply breaking line of sight will begin regenerating armour. That's a tremendous boost to survivability, to the point where I go from having to camp a safe cover spot to confidently tanking enemy fire and trading with larger Orks.

True, but no one is a fan of sweep checking every single augment on what has real use viability that gives an effect that makes it much more worth using over a Augur mod. Kind of why i always will vouch D.E. needs a bench tidy up, whether by making loads of mods more innate stats or just re-do the mod bench in a way to improve things that is not reducing the number of slots or reducing the over-all power that builds currently have, especially if updated builds in the wake of the changes, no not have a drastic improvement.

7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

What I'm getting at is that because our behaviour is informed by stats, then basic stat tweaks can tweak behaviour and the "feel" of abilities. The trick is to target a stat which is naturally very low and boost it significantly enough to make an immediate, appreciable difference to the player in moment-to-moment gameplay. At this point, it might start to seem like I'm about to ask for ability nerfs in order to create these "low stats," but in this case I don't think this is strictly necessary. Rather, I can envision a system where all currently-existing abilities are reimagined AS already being tweaked by an Augment. To give you a specific example, let's take Atlas' Rumblers, for example. Let's reimagine this ability and say it only spawns a SINGLE Rumbler with its stats unchanged, but give everyone who has the ability an augment for free called "Twin Rumblers," which allows the ability to spawn... Well, two Rumblers. That then gives you a "low" stat which could be improved. An alternate Augment would be the one we already have - Titanic Rumbler. Perhaps a third augment might entirely remove the single Runbler's attack abilities but allow it to periodically Petrify enemies within some range, etc.

Honestly do not even get me started on in-consitent information due to descriptions sometimes skipping over hidden interactions or the text is mis-leading because it does not even mention interaction values. But honestly thats with things like how reload speed does not simply read as reduce reload speed by X %. Where instead its suppose to read as `increase reload speed by X % or something like that, Among others.

7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

In short, we can reimagine existing Warframe abilities where they currently stand as a weaker ability already boosted by a default Augment. We can then offer alternative Augments which boost the ability in other directions, at the cost of losing that default Augment and what it does. Now, I know this is going to hurt some abilities pretty badly. Say if Rhino had to give up his Charge damage in return for Ironclad Charge, that might not be a great idea. I would certainly cry bloody murder if I lost armour to use Negation Swarm or some such. I don't believe my proposal is fully applicable to Warframe as it stands right NOW. Rather, I believe significant ability and augment rebalance would need to happen for such a change to take place. In a lot of cases, I might just bake some abilities' existing Augments into them as defaults, rather than trying to contrive a new weakness. Rhino is a good example, I feel the Frost Snowglobe freeze augment could be made default (thus losing it if you want more health, more Snowglobes, the ability to shoot into it or what have you) and a few others. Just because I want to shift part of abilities' power to an implicit default Augment doesn't mean that's the right way go about all of them.

I believe that it's possible to create a large number of meaningful ability Augments - potentially enough to have several per Warframe ability - as long as we don't require them to always change the ability's mechanics fundamentally. Augments which simply tweak stats could still be enough to change the "feel" of an ability without altering the underlying implementation of how it works. Obviously I'm not against that and I believe there should probably be at least one of those per ability, but those aren't the only kind which would work in this context.

If D.E. actually actually had a good deal of people to help them for a period of time to come up with these well-designed augments and also could get the code for them working (plus maybe be involved in `updating` certain simple warframe abilities by integrating particular augments that are amongst the worst offenders of patch-work fixing abilities), then that would be very lovely indeed.

7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Off-topic, but I believe that's because DE treat single and dual weapons as different weapons rather than different variants of the same weapon. For instance, the Viper can use the Stinging Truth mod. The Twin Vipers and the Twin Vipers Wraith can't, but the single Viper Wraith can. I assume the same applies to the Furis vs. the Akfuris and Dex Furis.

Granted part of this is just me poking at the usual make no sense element on particular mods will not work on dual-wield version if we start using the more realistic approach. But thats just again, me poking ALSO how plenty of sniper-rifle like `regular rifles` could use certain sniper-only type mods, yet they get clucked by it. Just as how Explosive bows cant use Cautious shot and D.E. cant just simply enable it on bows, despite the fact the limited weapon list has stuff like Ignis, which is going to be a major example of D.E.`s old shoddy design work till they actually go back and update the stuff.

7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I don't know that anyone's arguing that simply adding an Augment slot with no other changes would be a good idea, but I certainly don't assert that it is. Certain Augments are fairly powerful, as you said, and certain abilities seem almost fully intended to work with their corresponding Augment. As I mentioned above, any change in this vein - be it a Warframe Augment slot or one per every ability - would implicitly require a balance pass across most if not all Augments. Some are powerful, yes, and would probably need to be tweaked - maybe some of their power moved over to the core ability. Some suck ass and nobody in their right mind would use them. Most exist somewhere in-between.

Right now, augments HAVE to compete with all other Warframe mods by virtue of how the system is designed. In a lot of cases, DE don't seem to have realised this, and thus released a bunch of Augments which are "neat" to have or "complete" an ability but don't merit a slot of their own. With the systems being proposed here, Augments would now have to compete with each other, either cross-ability or even with other Augments within the same ability as I'm proposing. That naturally requires additional work to prepare for, but... Everything in Warframe requires additional work to prepare for. Even new content often leaves a footprint on the rest of the game which needs to be accounted for ahead of time. "Hey, here's Vacuum but for Beasts! Oh, dear... that doesn't work with how Vacuum works now. We need to change it!" That sort of thing.

To be honest, I've wanted DE to take a long critical look at the game's existing Augments and clean that mess up. The idea of Augments is solid and I definitely want more of them, but a lot of the ones we have just aren't very well made.

Anyway i think i will stop with the long post-chain of quotes here myself, since i feel like everyone involved are just doing the same looping dance, as i have seen in previous threads, whether its people arguing or people re-affirming that D.E. FK-ed up on alot of stuff and they need to seriously fix things up(whether its the recent releases or older content still left untouched as far as its own release update) when so many particular online looter games are either getting fixed up or about to be released.

I mean, i just finally got one of my extra PS4 controllers to work on my PC finally, so i don`t have to wait till Q2 2020 for the PS4 version of PSO2`s global release. I can just go back to PSO2 (this time on global) in Spring, when it hits the Xbox & PC platforms, Since i would not be amazed if crossplay or platform migration gets added later once the rest of the consoles catch up on it.

 

Which i think is a mighty shame for a good long-lasting game when a game that lasted just as long, was exclusive to only one country(japan) that length and despite only going to have up to episode 4`ish out of 7 out first for global, it is still way more enticing to spend more time on due to plenty of factors.

[Steel_Rook]

Oddly enough, this is the only thing I had something to say about...

8 hours ago, Avienas said:

If D.E. actually actually had a good deal of people to help them for a period of time to come up with these well-designed augments and also could get the code for them working (plus maybe be involved in `updating` certain simple warframe abilities by integrating particular augments that are amongst the worst offenders of patch-work fixing abilities), then that would be very lovely indeed.

Why would DE need "a good deal of people to help them?" They're a large studio as it is. Rebecca cited I believe 300 people working on Warframe in the latest devstream, and I believe her because this is consistent with the size of the studio. Unless the studio is predominantly staffed by accountants, janitors and bellhops, they should have enough people on hand for stuff like this.

[-NFT-Kick_ZA]

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Oddly enough, this is the only thing I had something to say about...

Why would DE need "a good deal of people to help them?" They're a large studio as it is. Rebecca cited I believe 300 people working on Warframe in the latest devstream, and I believe her because this is consistent with the size of the studio. Unless the studio is predominantly staffed by accountants, janitors and bellhops, they should have enough people on hand for stuff like this.

i mean they dont need more, they have us too 😄 😄 we are tenno for a reason.

[Avienas]

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Oddly enough, this is the only thing I had something to say about...

Why would DE need "a good deal of people to help them?" They're a large studio as it is. Rebecca cited I believe 300 people working on Warframe in the latest devstream, and I believe her because this is consistent with the size of the studio. Unless the studio is predominantly staffed by accountants, janitors and bellhops, they should have enough people on hand for stuff like this.

Alright one last quote then. The reason i pointed out a bunch of extra people because clearly they need some third party group (or just straight up get a bunch of players who know the game extensively well to point out the numerous flaws if we want to get REALLY basic) to REALLY examine things, propose fixes and assist towards those fixes actually can happen, since it pretty much feels just like that. Possibly a good deal of them are more on the bug fixing part and likely very few are a part of a group that revises old content, If that is not a temporary thing where they assign some people to looking over old content from time to time.

Which i would not be amazed if most of that 300 staff are part of more on the design work part and getting those integrated into the game and less about reviewing coding, which still feels like they are likely more invested in making sure everything works, then caring about bugs that do not completely destroy the game (yet PC version pretty much declares that plenty still slip thru).

I was pretty much trying to poke at how they need to get a group seriously committed for atleast a good deal of a while towards fixing up the game, since they are just piling on more buggie content over the recent years, Where i can especially run into B.S. like enemies not spawning at all in fissure missions after the first few minutes till i spend a good several minutes scouring the entire map to hopefully win the coin flip that i run into some, which more often then naught, does not occur. Old content or not, D.E. should of fixed bugs i have seen going on for years by now. Which i am sure plenty others have run into.

 

 

[-NFT-Kick_ZA]

pretty much all I (as a tenno) am asking is maybe look at allowing augments into exilus slots but not limited to them 😄 pls DE. and we see what data we get from it.

[Atsia]

22 minutes ago, -NFT-Kick_ZA said:

pretty much all I (as a tenno) am asking is maybe look at allowing augments into exilus slots but not limited to them 😄 pls DE. and we see what data we get from it.

They already defined that the only augments that could be slotted into the exilus slot are ones that only affect movement (Mesa Waltz, Escape Velocity, Hysterical Assault, etc.)

[-NFT-Kick_ZA]

18 minutes ago, Atsia said:

They already defined that the only augments that could be slotted into the exilus slot are ones that only affect movement (Mesa Waltz, Escape Velocity, Hysterical Assault, etc.)

but nyx 4th augment cant go in exilus slot. (Assimilate)