Should Depleted Reload be a weapon Exilus mod?

[SenorClipClop]

9 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

why is Projectile Speed which increases shotgun DPS at range allowed

My guess is that Projectile Speed really only makes a lethality difference with a small subset of weapons and they want to keep Mods with similar effects in the same category. That, and Projectile Speed doesn't increase the damage shotguns deal, just how far away you can stand and deal full damage. The increase in damage is indirect, not direct.

9 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

why is Power Drift an exilus mod when POWER DRIFT DIRECTLY INCREASES YOUR WARFRAME'S DAMAGE?!

In my opinion, the Drift Mods being Exilus (at least the ones affecting Ability values) was a mistake. It's actually a pretty good example of what not to make Exilus, imo, because Power Drift and Cunning Drift constantly crowd out actual utility Mods in most builds, rendering the "reserved for utility" nature of the slot pretty meaningless.

9 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

because the things they need like reload (akbronco, twin roggas...) or magazine size (hystrix, ocucor....)  ARE NOT EXILUS.... what gives?! Exilus is supposed to be utility.

Saying they need something and then calling that needed something "utility" because it's needed, seems like a pretty complicated way to say "buff me". From the wording of this sentence you make it sounds as though these upgrades are very important but somehow also not worth a regular Mod slot? It's a bit confusing. Maybe change how you word this?

[Acersecomic]

22 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Saying they need something and then calling that needed something "utility" because it's needed, seems like a pretty complicated way to say "buff me". From the wording of this sentence you make it sounds as though these upgrades are very important but somehow also not worth a regular Mod slot? It's a bit confusing. Maybe change how you word this?

They're not gonna buff it. We've always been fixing weapons with mods. Also it is a comfort pick, to reload faster or fire longer...

[Talinthis]

should it be? sure why not, i enjoy being super powerful.

 

[Lion]

This is one of those mods that could potentially holes in DEs argument for not allowing mods that increase DPS. This is a mod that in almost every application just bumps up burst DPS at the expense of sustained DPS, so it while it does have an affect on DPS, its neither increasing nor decreasing it.

 

The same can be said for something like Lethal Momentum which basically makes the Catchmoon range nerf completely invalid by the way lol

Edited February 17, 2020 by Lion

[Sylonus]

12 hours ago, Lion said:

The same can be said for something like Lethal Momentum which basically makes the Catchmoon range nerf completely invalid by the way lol

Again, all weapon exilus slot increase DPS at least situationally, but I have to point out this hugely incorrect statement I hear all the time.

Old Catchmoon: Full damage at 40 meters.
New Catchmoon: Full damage at 8 meters.
New Catchmoon with Lethal Momentum: Full damage at 11.2 meters.

According to the wiki, the falloff scales linearly, so we can expect 53.125% damage at 12 meters (8(falloff start)+16(falloff end)/2 = Midway point between 0% falloff and 93.75% (46.875% falloff), or at 16.8 meters with Lethal Momentum, obviously your average shot range depends on what you're fighting and the map but yeah, Catchmoon is NOWHERE near what it once was.

You would need 400% Projectile speed to obtain full damage at 40 meters post Catchmoon nerf, which is what it was pre-nerf.... I personally almost never use the Catchmoon at all anymore, about the only exception is when I play Jetstream Zephyr, who with my build gains about 280 Flight speed, with my flight speed riven and Lethal Momentum I get about 350% Projectile speed, and it feels reasonable enough to use, but on anyone else, I can't stomach it, I'd rather just use Staticor or Brakk or Pyrana.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Sylonus

[tzadquiel]

On 2020-02-15 at 1:25 AM, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

not sure, since I don't think any other Corrupted Mods are Exilus.

for accuracy sake only - there is the Vile Precision mod. 

[tzadquiel]

20 minutes ago, Sylonus said:

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on paper, you are right. but catchmoon use is close to mid range, and always was. so the falloff, once mitigated (additionally, I am lucky to have the +proj speed on both catchmoon rivens of mine) makes the nerf is non-existent. but keep thinking what you're thinking, meanwhile I will patiently wait until the dispo changes after more like you. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by tzadquiel

[Sylonus]

Just now, tzadquiel said:

on paper, you are right. but catchmoon use is close to mid range, and always was. so the falloff, once mitigated (additionally, I am lucky to have the +proj speed on both catchmoon rivens of mine) makes the nerf is non-existent. but keep thinking what you're thinking, meanwhile I will patiently wait until the dispo changes after more like you. 

On paper, which is a model representation of the reality, of which I have tried, and you clearly didn't read that I mentioned a specific case in which I still use it, Turbulence Zephyr, my my projectile speed riven, I felt the horrible, horrible nerf in gameplay, and compared it to other secondaries for a while before I ever did the math, dispo changes wouldn't save this weapon. Catchmoon's use was not only close range before, now it is, at the range at which it's usable, by and large I'd just rather melee, but you can use whatever you like, and honestly I doubt dispo changes are coming, because tons of people still use this weapon despite it's nerf, it's damage is good, in quasi-melee range, I just prefer meleeing, if you prefer pulling a trigger up close instead, it's a reasonable use case.

[tzadquiel]

1 minute ago, Sylonus said:

On paper, which is a model representation of the reality, of which I have tried, and you clearly didn't read that I mentioned a specific case in which I still use it, Turbulence Zephyr, my my projectile speed riven, I felt the horrible, horrible nerf in gameplay, and compared it to other secondaries for a while before I ever did the math, dispo changes wouldn't save this weapon. Catchmoon's use was not only close range before, now it is, at the range at which it's usable, by and large I'd just rather melee, but you can use whatever you like, and honestly I doubt dispo changes are coming, because tons of people still use this weapon despite it's nerf, it's damage is good, in quasi-melee range, I just prefer meleeing, if you prefer pulling a trigger up close instead, it's a reasonable use case.

i'm sorry my dude, but catchmoon was always a mid to close weapon because it always had projectile speed. sadly, this is not q3 rocket arena or any of the modern shooters, where much of the playerbase has decent accuracy with projectile non-aoe weapons. why? bc those take skill and aim - whereas catchmoon was always about spamming, because it inflicts no self damage penalty, AND because most of the time we are cluttered in small corridors or medium sized rooms. 

the melee comments you made are irrelevant, and your thoughts on the dispo too. the future dispo movements will ultimately prove who is right, and who is wrong - because if it doesn't skyrocket all of sudden, that will indicate that people are still using it, and are using it the way it was used before. 

[Sylonus]

1 minute ago, tzadquiel said:

i'm sorry my dude, but catchmoon was always a mid to close weapon because it always had projectile speed. sadly, this is not q3 rocket arena or any of the modern shooters, where much of the playerbase has decent accuracy with projectile non-aoe weapons. why? bc those take skill and aim - whereas catchmoon was always about spamming, because it inflicts no self damage penalty, AND because most of the time we are cluttered in small corridors or medium sized rooms. 

the melee comments you made are irrelevant, and your thoughts on the dispo too. the future dispo movements will ultimately prove who is right, and who is wrong - because if it doesn't skyrocket all of sudden, that will indicate that people are still using it, and are using it the way it was used before. 

I'm sorry you're sorry, but, that doesn't change the past or present situation, Catchmoon had 40 meter range with no falloff before projectile speed, and a large fast projectile, which didn't require any sort of decent accuracy to use it at that range, so I've got no idea what you're on about with that. Catchmoon was a good weapon at range 0-40 (without projectile speed). And it is now a good weapon at ranges 0-20ish (with projectile speed, higher with specifically Zephyr). None of the alternative weapons I mentioned have self damage or any issues with being used in any such rooms either. The comments on melee are not irrelevant, as melee has higher DPS generally at similar ranges, one forward+right click melee will gapclose to 20 meters on the weapons I use.

As mentioned,people ARE using it, and in the ways they were before, just at about 50% effectiveness, and I've found with that change, other weapons and playstyles to have higher DPS and comfort. The disposition will likely not change, because people have grown to like the weapon, and it's still a perfectly reasonable weapon for a lot of use-cases, I never said it wan't, just that I've found ones I consider better for those cases, but saying that the nerf is effectively "non-existent", is just completely out of sync with reality.

[kwlingo]

On 2020-02-14 at 6:44 PM, Skaleek said:

depleted reload is the same as fast hands, increases dps, so no.

Vigilante Supplies add dps to 5% crit

[kwlingo]

On 2020-02-15 at 12:11 AM, trst said:

Less time spent dealing zero damage = more dps throughout a mission. Which can be a considerable dps increase if you account for re-applying status procs sooner.

This would be a bad argument for Soft Hands and Twitch, even Lock and Loaded and Tactical Reload. The purpose is to decrease time to trigger again or even avoid possible reloads.

[tzadquiel]

2 hours ago, kwlingo said:

Vigilante Supplies add dps to 5% crit

does it though? I started running VS the moment exilus was added to the menu, and yes I do see increase in colours of crits. but the amounts are highly inconsistent, and my regular orange crits are much higher compared to the red ones (39k vs 28k for example).

 

the mod set description is also not lending any light here, 'enhance critical hits' is hard to quantize when no amounts are given.

Edited February 18, 2020 by tzadquiel

[Sylonus]

11 minutes ago, tzadquiel said:

does it though? I started running VS the moment exilus was added to the menu, and yes I do see increase in colours of crits. but the amounts are highly inconsistent, and my regular orange crits are much higher compared to the red ones (39k vs 28k for example)

It doesn't _exactly_ work like that, according to the wiki it's +5% chance of upgrading a crit to the next tier.
If your crit chance is above 100%, I believe it's mathematically equal to +5% crit, but if it's lower than it, it's effectively %critchance of 5%, so, if you have 50% crit before accounting for the set bonus, it's effectively a 2.5% chance of an orange crit, (5% of your normal crits), 47.5% chance of normal crit, 50% chance of not critting, which I believe equates to 2.5% crit chance in terms of average damage (before accounting for things like enemy HP overkill damage etc).

That said, your orange crits should never average higher than your red ones, unless the wiki's explanation of how the mod works is incorrect, though sure, there are plenty of specific cases where an orange crit might outperform a red one due to other things such as damage reduction from armor etc.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Sylonus

[TheGodofWiFi]

I tell you what does need to be an exilus mod; Natural Talent.

Edited February 18, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi

[tzadquiel]

40 minutes ago, Sylonus said:

It doesn't _exactly_ work like that, according to the wiki it's +5% chance of upgrading a crit to the next tier.
That said, your orange crits should never average higher than your red ones, unless the wiki's explanation of how the mod works is incorrect, though sure, there are plenty of specific cases where an orange crit might outperform a red one due to other things such as damage reduction from armor etc.

next tier in crit is the next colour. 

I will repeat - my orange crits average much higher on same weapon (and same enemy) than my red crits - we are talking about testing Prisma Grinlok with Vigilante Supplies and Vigilante Armaments or Exergis. I have no crit chance mods equipped on either of those, and am not using Harrow.
those differences will be even further exaggerated if you are using Bladed Rounds or the shotgun equivalent. The only explanation I could think of for the sake of the argument is that my Arcane Avengers didn't stack on that red crit shot, but 1) it happened more than once and 2) arcane avengers affect the crit chance, not crit damage.

Wiki, although (and maybe because) collectively redacted, from my experience is advanced guesswork sometimes. 

[tzadquiel]

42 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I tell you what does need to be an exilus mod; Natural Talent.

it cannot, because it is offensive and can greatly increase dps on ANY ability that deals damage. think nidus 1 for example. 

[(XBOX)Yufix4574]

This mod provides a buff and a debuff in the same thing, in the end nothing changes, so yes, it should be an exilus.

[SneakyErvin]

Na it should stay clear of the exilus slot. It is a choice to make currently. Dont have a riven? Add the mod along with primed chamber. If you have a riven you hopefully aim for one with -50% mag size to go with primed chamber. So if they add it to exilus then they need to add all reload speed mods to exilus.

[Uthael]

How about making certain weapons allow specific stats into the Exilus slot? Only the ones related to its theme.

- Vectis could allow magazine size changes (both, positive and negative).
- Grakata and Kohm families could allow magazine size or even fire rate even though they're DPS-increase.
- PANTHERA COULD ALLOW BEAM RANGE MODS
- A shotgun or two could allow pellet spread mods
- etc.

 

Edit: Before anyone quotes me with rivens in mind... If you get a riven with a stat fitting to the weapon's theme, lucky you! More fun mechanics to play with.
Edit 2: Shouldn't this topic be somewhere in the feedback forums?

Edited February 18, 2020 by Uthael

[Sylonus]

2 hours ago, tzadquiel said:

next tier in crit is the next colour. 

I will repeat - my orange crits average much higher on same weapon (and same enemy) than my red crits - we are talking about testing Prisma Grinlok with Vigilante Supplies and Vigilante Armaments or Exergis. I have no crit chance mods equipped on either of those, and am not using Harrow.
those differences will be even further exaggerated if you are using Bladed Rounds or the shotgun equivalent. The only explanation I could think of for the sake of the argument is that my Arcane Avengers didn't stack on that red crit shot, but 1) it happened more than once and 2) arcane avengers affect the crit chance, not crit damage.

Wiki, although (and maybe because) collectively redacted, from my experience is advanced guesswork sometimes. 

Yes, the next tier in crit is the next color, which is why a lower tier crit (in other words, one less instance of the multiplier) orange, instead of red, cannot average higher, in general, unless the wiki is wrong about what the Vigilante set bonus is doing, is, rather the whole point of what I was saying, but there are rather many explanations. The prisma grinlock has a base 21% crit chance, you must reach 101% crit chance, after buffs, to even achieve an orange crit (tier 2) at all, (OR a yellow crit with the Vigilante set bonus proc BECOMES an orange crit) the wiki doesn't state any other differences other than raising it by one tier, ala color, so it shouldn't be possible that it's giving you "less" of a crit, again (on average, specific circumstances on differring targets), unless the wiki is wrong, which is possible, but I'm just talking of the math here, and going by the assumption that the wiki is right.

Assuming no crit damage mods, with a prisma grinlock a yellow crit should be doing: 2.9x Damage
An orange crit should be doing: 5.8x Damage
A red crit should be doing : 8.7x Damage (Or higher if you achieve higher tiers, though the color remains red with higher tier crits.)

Avenger, Covenant, Vigilante Set bonus (according to the wiki), should not be able to account for changes in damage beyond which tier(color) crit you achieve.
Bladed Rounds grants crit damage, so it could account for the discrepancy, that or the wiki is wrong about the vigilante set bonus does, or you are mistaken in your testing.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Sylonus

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

Would you even be asking this question without the recent chamber release?

[zehne]

The back and forth here is basically "DE says no damage mods, only utility" ... "But correct use of utility increases dps" ... "Even some utility mods have small dps gains too"

IMO, DE should just re-think exilus mods.  Like start making mods for exilus that are in the same area of unique weapon effects.  Maybe even make all weapon special effects into exilus mods, or lesser versions of them.  Give exilus mods polarities but no drain (polarity increases the effect of the exilus mod).  Then if you want unique weapon effects, make the subsequent exilus mod a weapon specific one so that it can be used there uniquely or have it provide additional effects when equipped on the correct weapon( and/or weapon types).

 

[TheGodofWiFi]

15 hours ago, tzadquiel said:

it cannot, because it is offensive and can greatly increase dps on ANY ability that deals damage. think nidus 1 for example. 

So how come Speed Drift is an exilus mod then?

Also, NT does is not an offensive mod as it can be used to increase the casting speed of all abilities, not just the damage dealing ones.

Edited February 19, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi

[tzadquiel]

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

So how come Speed Drift is an exilus mod then?

Also, NT does is not an offensive mod as it can be used to increase the casting speed of all abilities, not just the damage dealing ones.

keyword here is greatly. we also have Power Drift along with Speed Drift, but those additives are almost symbolical compared to the other gains you could get.