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The big problem with Liches, which will kill them


(XBOX)KayAitch
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Liches have a significant problem, and ultimately it will kill this content as surely as Lunaro.

That problem is that liches are isolated from every other game mode. They'll turn up at the end and steal stuff, but that's it.

So you either play other stuff, or you specifically play liches. If you're really lucky someone else has a similar level lich on the same node, but the vast majority of the time you're on your own for 2-4 hours as you grind murmers, lich aggro and parazon attempts.

This is fine for now, the liches are new, we don't have all the weapons yet, and being able to choose which weapon to grid for has extended this mode a bit.

But, ultimately, it is doomed, because it's an island of content. Liches only appear in this island, so you're either there or you aren't, and eventually none of us will be. Once I have all the lich weapons it is highly unlikely that I'll be bothered to play this mode. Maybe I'll max one or two bonus stats out, and if I'm feeling masochistic maybe I'll even try for some of the ephemera, but this is a fad - once I have what I want from them I'll never see a lich again.

This game mode has a very real expiry date, and while new players will come to it they'll be doing so alone because nobody who has gotten past it wants to go back to the island.

Liches need to be part of the rest of the game. It's absolutely critical:

- Liches should not be their own node variants (with the possible exception of a new mission type with a guaranteed lich spawn).

- Lich thralls should appear in all nodes on the effected planet. Cracking relics should get thralls, nightmare missions should get thralls, kuva siphon/flood should get thralls, arbitrations and sorties should get thralls. RJ Proxima should get thralls. If you have a lich on a planet every node on that planet should get thralls.

- Thralls/liches can turn up if any player on your squad has a lich on that planet.

- Missions should grant murmers, especially Spy vaults or finding caches. If you open a Spy vault in lich territory then you are hacking for secrets about that lich.

- None of the players with liches need the play without chance of lich option on the star chart. If we have a lich on a planet then every node on that planet has thralls and the chance to spawn the lich. If we want to play that planet without the lich then we should have to kill the lich. Letting us just choose to opt out breaks any feeling of the lich being a nemesis.

Liches need to be part of the core game, or they're a dead end that will die off as surely as Lunaro.

 

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The biggest reason for liches NOT being part of the core game is for new/newer players who don't have liches. We don't want to chuck a level 5 lich at a newbie on Mars or Venus, as that might scar them off.

Of course the simplest solution is to only spawn liches once you (and all other players in the squad) have completed the War Within (or whatever quest you need to start the lich farming, i forget).

But that is also a problem, what happens if i don't want to fight liches, then i don't spawn one. But if i play multiplayer, specifically with randoms, then i don't get a choice, as if even 1 player has one they may spawn. Which means that chances are i'm going to have to deal with liches which kinda ruins multiplayer.

Although you could get around it by always having a new player in the squad, which would help the new player experience as they have stronger players to help teach them.

Also, a reminder that liches have 2 (maybe 3) major installments still to come; Liches in RJ (which i think is next), then corpus liches and then maybe infested liches (not entirely sure on these). That means way more weapons and changes are coming so the expatriation date will continue to be pushed back.

Hopefully in that time they'll do the changes you have specified, as they honestly sound good.

Also, you may want to put a link of this to the kuva changes pages so DE can see it. (https://forums.warframe.com/forum/123-developer-workshop-update-notes/)

Edited by AndouRaiton
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i came here expecting to see more whining about how grindy they are, but you know what, this guy's right. integrated liches could actually make them feel less grindy too. it means i could farm liches while also doing other things i want to do, instead of choosing between the two.

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It seems like a hard to win thing to me.

I don't want the Lich in the content I don't ask for it in.  And yet, I don't want it the other way either---I don't want to do content to exclusively deal with Liches all the time.

The problem is murmurs.  Mission after mission, time after time, the reason we're doing this isolated content isn't to actually fight a Lich, it's to farm the murmurs, and we can't do it in the normal content that we might otherwise be running.  The thralls are the thing that needs to be showing up everywhere, all the time, so that we don't have to specifically target missions that have them.

After that, we still have the Lich to deal with.  If we put him somewhere isolated so that we can go to it at our leisure, he's not much of a nemesis(pretty much what he is right now, only worse because he's not even always there and we can't deliberately trigger him reliably).  If he shows up in all manner of unwanted places, he's just a nuisance that we're better off not even triggering.

So....I dunno what the answer is.  Murmurs are easy to fix, just make them less grindy by throwing them in everywhere(and preferably needing somewhat less of them in some way) because they aren't really gameplay anyway. 

Making the Lich something other than some jerk that shows up, craps in your cheerios and leaves seems alot harder because honestly, I have a hard time imagining a desire to have it show up everywhere, and yet I don't always want to go where he is, either.

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9 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

That problem is that liches are isolated from every other game mode.

I've been meaning to write my own thread on this issue, but I've been lazy about it.

The kuva liches have huge potential to link the entire game together as sort of a unified goal that spans the entire game. Almost like... an end-game.

They could have spawned in any regular mission instead of having their own mission type, but no... only in their specific missions. Not as an extra addition to anywhere you go in the game. They could have been designed with genuine strengths and weaknesses (like being immune to shotguns, but weak to bows and pistols), pushing you to really think about what loadout to use. They could have built a small army of "lesser" liches as their bodyguards, forcing to take them down first in order to weaken the lich, or force your way through the hard way for a challenge...

Heck, maybe I've just been playing Shadow of War too much. But kuva liches do NOT compare to the Nemesis system at all.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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12 hours ago, AndouRaiton said:

The biggest reason for liches NOT being part of the core game is for new/newer players who don't have liches. We don't want to chuck a level 5 lich at a newbie on Mars or Venus, as that might scar them off

If the rest of the brick wall of new stuff that the new player experience already is doesn't then I doubt liches will scare them off.

Still, they won't see liches in early missions unless someone on their squad has one.

12 hours ago, AndouRaiton said:

Which means that chances are i'm going to have to deal with liches which kinda ruins multiplayer.

If liches are that bad they have worse problems. Mostly you can ignore other players liches.

Any way of excluding liches from nodes is going to split the matchmaking, so I think the option are play solo, or play with team of like minded individuals. 

Liches need to be part of the core gameplay.

13 hours ago, Podge said:

i came here expecting to see more whining about how grindy they are, but you know what, this guy's right. integrated liches could actually make them feel less grindy too

Yup. For what they're supposed to be they probably aren't grindy enough - you're supposed to build genuine antagonism with your lich, but as they're an island of grind you don't get that.

13 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The isolation of the content yes, but also its artificially inflated grind that pretty much always takes you at minimum 3 hours to complete if you don’t get luck with the requiems

Yeah, but that's because you're doing nothing else and probably solo.

3 hours on one isolated thing is painful.

3 hours while also getting some relics, doing some Kuva siphons/floods, Arbitrations and maybe some RJ missions is nothing. 

5 hours ago, Thrymm said:

Murmurs are easy to fix, just make them less grindy by throwing them in everywhere(and preferably needing somewhat less of them in some way) because they aren't really gameplay anyway

Yup, though if they're everywhere you'd max them out pretty quick, you wouldn't need their levels to be lower.

5 hours ago, Thrymm said:

Making the Lich something other than some jerk that shows up, craps in your cheerios and leaves seems alot harder because honestly, I have a hard time imagining a desire to have it show up everywhere, and yet I don't always want to go where he is, either.

The lich needs to be a thorn in your side to work. Oh, you stole 1k credits from my mission? Big woop. I don't care. But when they turn and "crap in your Cheerios" again and again - then you have a motivation to take them out.

I would probably have them spawn less often than now (as not dedicated content) but maybe have nodes that guaranteed a fight appear after each unlocked murmer or on reaching max rage.

5 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

They could have built a small army of "lesser" liches as their bodyguards, forcing to take them down first in order to weaken the lich, or force your way through the hard way for a challenge...

I've suggested something like that elsewhere 

But that's all nice to have. Liches won't die out without a better progress, or more or less grind.

What will kill them is being a separate game mode that you rinse and then never play again.

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13 hours ago, AndouRaiton said:

Of course the simplest solution is to only spawn liches once you (and all other players in the squad) have completed the War Within (or whatever quest you need to start the lich farming, i forget).

I think there's a problem with this - if I have a lich to grind and a player who hasn't gotten that far joins my squad I won't see any thralls/liches.

That's going to result in some pretty toxic squads for new players as they join the team and everyone else tells them to leave.

I think new players should see liches and thralls, but they can't parazon either and the liches ignore them (until they damage the lich) as beneath their notice. They're a top dog, they're not here for the greenhorns.

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