Valence Fusion Bug

[Cortanis]

So I just picked up a new Bramma that I was intending to move to fire as the elemental basis on. I just tried to go from a 28% rad bow trying to fuse it into a 52% fire one. It ate the rad bow, the reactor is now gone, all 5 forma are now gone, the exilus slot is now locked again, and it over rode the element back into rad again.

 

 

And for the record here's both the bows used.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Cortanis

[[DE]Saske]

Hello Cortanis! It looks like your 28% radiation damage Kuva Bramma had the Orokin Catalyst and the 5 Forma installed, and you fused it into the 52% heat damage Kuva Bramma.

The confirmation UI stated that your upgraded weapon would have radiation damage and you would lose your 5 forma in the process.

If you had merged the 52% heat damage Kuva Bramma into your 28% radiation damage Kuva Bramma, you would have kept your Orokin Catalyst, Forma and your Kuva Bramma would have ended up with ~57.2% heat damage instead of radiation.

[-CCC-Azula]

This isn't a bug, this is how it is designed.  You should have used your Radiation Bramma as a base, then used your Heat Bramma via Valence Fusion.

You used the 52% Heat Bramma as a base and then fused it with your radiation Bramma which had 5 Forma, Potato, Weapon Exilus Adapter, etc.  Because your Fire Bramma had no forma, potatoes, or exilus adapter, it in turn means that your newly upgraded weapon has none. 

What you want to do in the future is use the weapon that has all the resources in-place as a base, and use Valence Fusion to boost its % elemental bonus.

 

A good friend/clanmate @-CCC-Secret put the following album together to demonstrate this: : https://imgur.com/a/qqianw6 

 

Additionally, the game tells you explicitly that it will eat the forma, potatoes, etc. before you complete the valence fusion.  It even requires you to type "transfer" to ensure this is what you are intending to do. 

 

I am very sorry this happened, but in the future you definitely want to use the kuva weapon that has your forma and potato as a base so you do not lose your resources.  I may suggest contacting support and see if they would be willing to reverse this for you, as that's your only recourse at this point.

Edited February 18, 2020 by -CCC-Azula
Fire -> heat

[mkah_mvet]

feature request for if you're about to burn a catalyst/forma... have the confirmation dialog make you type "i guess I'm okay with losing a catalyst and/or forma"

[Reifnir]

2 hours ago, [DE]Saske said:

If you had merged the 52% heat damage Kuva Bramma into your 28% radiation damage Kuva Bramma, you would have kept your Orokin Catalyst, Forma and your Kuva Bramma would have ended up with ~57.2% heat damage instead of radiation.

This is waaay not the first topic of this kind, nor will it be the last. You should really think on either making the fusion UI clearer or updating the exact phrasing. People ARE confused about how this works, this should NOT require players to search the forums to figure out. 

[Cortanis]

8 hours ago, [DE]Saske said:

Hello Cortanis! It looks like your 28% radiation damage Kuva Bramma had the Orokin Catalyst and the 5 Forma installed, and you fused it into the 52% heat damage Kuva Bramma.

The confirmation UI stated that your upgraded weapon would have radiation damage and you would lose your 5 forma in the process.

If you had merged the 52% heat damage Kuva Bramma into your 28% radiation damage Kuva Bramma, you would have kept your Orokin Catalyst, Forma and your Kuva Bramma would have ended up with ~57.2% heat damage instead of radiation.

@[DE]Saske To quote the update. *PS: It matters which order you Valence Fuse them in. The weapon that you START from, the one where you click "Actions", is the one that will be kept with its investments.

I started with the 52% heat Bramma. I'm not exactly mad that I lost the other stuff. I am peeved however that it did in fact convert the element type rather than keep the fire element as quoted and linked. I was fully willing to eat the cost of the investments, but I literally lost the investments as well as the damage type instead of keeping it like the change was described. I basically got nothing out of it and lost everything for it. Now I have to farm out an entirely new bow just to move to fire as apparently I literally CAN'T fuse the built up bow into any other element as it will over ride it. Hence why this was originally posted under UI bugs.

This can be observed in that I described what I was doing.

"So I just picked up a new Bramma that I was intending to move to fire as the elemental basis on. I just tried to go from a 28% rad bow trying to fuse it into a 52% fire one."

As well as the bug and changes can be observed in the fact that the bows themselves are named. See how the new Bramma in question is now named Nililii Gaa Kuva Bramma as it is the starting bow that was supposed to consume the Xikk Mesta Kuva Bramma to get the buff while also losing all investments. The result is the Nililii Gaa Kuva Bramma that is now Rad Damage and not FIRE damage as described in the update. In other words, SOME aspect of the UI and/or system is bugged. Ether the Xikk Mesta Kuva Bramma was supposed to be the base and retain all investments and element, or Nililii Gaa Kuva Bramma was supposed to get buffed, keep the fire element, and lose all investments. Nether was done.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Cortanis

[IamLoco]

3 hours ago, Cortanis said:

@[DE]Saske To quote the update. *PS: It matters which order you Valence Fuse them in. The weapon that you START from, the one where you click "Actions", is the one that will be kept with its investments.

I started with the 52% heat Bramma. I'm not exactly mad that I lost the other stuff. I am peeved however that it did in fact convert the element type rather than keep the fire element as quoted and linked. I was fully willing to eat the cost of the investments, but I literally lost the investments as well as the damage type instead of keeping it like the change was described. I basically got nothing out of it and lost everything for it. Now I have to farm out an entirely new bow just to move to fire as apparently I literally CAN'T fuse the built up bow into any other element as it will over ride it. Hence why this was originally posted under UI bugs.

This can be observed in that I described what I was doing.

"So I just picked up a new Bramma that I was intending to move to fire as the elemental basis on. I just tried to go from a 28% rad bow trying to fuse it into a 52% fire one."

As well as the bug and changes can be observed in the fact that the bows themselves are named. See how the new Bramma in question is now named Nililii Gaa Kuva Bramma as it is the starting bow that was supposed to consume the Xikk Mesta Kuva Bramma to get the buff while also losing all investments. The result is the Nililii Gaa Kuva Bramma that is now Rad Damage and not FIRE damage as described in the update. In other words, SOME aspect of the UI and/or system is bugged. Ether the Xikk Mesta Kuva Bramma was supposed to be the base and retain all investments and element, or Nililii Gaa Kuva Bramma was supposed to get buffed, keep the fire element, and lose all investments. Nether was done.

You quoted the correct thing but failed to understand its meaning.

The order matters. You will keep the weapon that you START with. This should have been your fully upgraded, leveld, formaed bow. You should have then fused the 52% heat bramma into your 28% rad bramma. The transfer screen very clearly describes what will happen to the weapon. If you had used the correct order, you would have ended up with a lvl 40, 5 forma, 57% fire bramma.

I see no bug here and no fault on DE´s side. I´ve done half a dozen of transfers already and this is exactly how it´s supposed to work.

Edited February 19, 2020 by IamLoco

[KnightKrawlur]

While it's intended to work that way (as others above have said), it's a piss poor method.  

It should simply combine the best of both weapons into the new one, no extra dialog is needed, a competent designer is what's needed.

Nobody is ever going to decide "I wish I could remove all polarities and this catalyst from my weapon".  Speaking as a designer it's important to think about how something is going to be used and make it as simple and fool proof as possible.

[chaotea]

5 hours ago, Cortanis said:

@[DE]Saske To quote the update. *PS: It matters which order you Valence Fuse them in. The weapon that you START from, the one where you click "Actions", is the one that will be kept with its investments.

I started with the 52% heat Bramma. ......., but I literally lost the investments as well as the damage type instead of keeping it like the change was described.

Basically it works like this:

Start weapon = Forma, ect.

Weapon Chosen through Action = Element.

 

What you did = You started with the clean fire element, and added your forma'd bow.

What you should have done = Start with the forma'd bow, add the clean element.

[CobraCommanderPrime]

1 hour ago, KnightKrawlur said:

While it's intended to work that way (as others above have said), it's a piss poor method.  

It should simply combine the best of both weapons into the new one, no extra dialog is needed, a competent designer is what's needed.

Nobody is ever going to decide "I wish I could remove all polarities and this catalyst from my weapon".  Speaking as a designer it's important to think about how something is going to be used and make it as simple and fool proof as possible.

the method is pretty simple to unsderstand.

you take one weapon with investment then ADD another to it. imbuing it with elemental bonus depending on the % of the weapons used.

you have to have the specific (user choice) wepon equipped in order to upgrade it, how much more fool proofing do we need to get?

if folk are misunderstnding a simple UPGRADE path that is used for potatoes, forma and lenses on every other warframe and weapon already.... what else can be done? its certainly not DE to blame for user error. there are already prompts to clarify before the infusion is performed.

[Cortanis]

9 hours ago, IamLoco said:

You quoted the correct thing but failed to understand its meaning.

The order matters. You will keep the weapon that you START with. This should have been your fully upgraded, leveld, formaed bow. You should have then fused the 52% heat bramma into your 28% rad bramma. The transfer screen very clearly describes what will happen to the weapon. If you had used the correct order, you would have ended up with a lvl 40, 5 forma, 57% fire bramma.

Problem is that is literally not what the update says.

"*PS: It matters which order you Valence Fuse them in. The weapon that you START from, the one where you click "Actions", is the one that will be kept with its investments."

It literally says that the weapon you start with will be kept. It literally states that the one you start with will be kept and the elemental as the investments. Element is one of the main things being invested in the bow choice in the first place. That's literally not what is happening and I documented. Again, to quote myself once again in this.

13 hours ago, Cortanis said:

I started with the 52% heat Bramma. I'm not exactly mad that I lost the other stuff. I am peeved however that it did in fact convert the element type rather than keep the fire element as quoted and linked. I was fully willing to eat the cost of the investments, but I literally lost the investments as well as the damage type instead of keeping it like the change was described

 

13 hours ago, Cortanis said:

The result is the Nililii Gaa Kuva Bramma that is now Rad Damage and not FIRE damage as described in the update. In other words, SOME aspect of the UI and/or system is bugged. Ether the Xikk Mesta Kuva Bramma was supposed to be the base and retain all investments and element, or Nililii Gaa Kuva Bramma was supposed to get buffed, keep the fire element, and lose all investments. Nether was done.

Again, the weapon you START FROM is the one that will be kept. Again, as documented, that is not the case. Nothing but the elemental buff was applied to the new bow and the elemental was changed from the starting bow and it ate all investments. That is not how any of that is described in the update on it.

[NinjaZeku]

33 minutes ago, Cortanis said:

It literally states that the one you start with will be kept and the elemental as the investments.

It doesn't mention elements being kept at all though.

Because that's kind of one of the main points, being able to change the element bonus on your Forma'd / Potato'd weapon.

Sorry for your loss, but, well, you did it in the wrong order, and didn't heed the game's warnings on what you'll lose.

Edited February 19, 2020 by NinjaZeku

[GrayArchon]

1 hour ago, Cortanis said:

Problem is that is literally not what the update says.

"*PS: It matters which order you Valence Fuse them in. The weapon that you START from, the one where you click "Actions", is the one that will be kept with its investments."

It literally says that the weapon you start with will be kept. It literally states that the one you start with will be kept and the elemental as the investments. Element is one of the main things being invested in the bow choice in the first place. That's literally not what is happening and I documented. Again, to quote myself once again in this.

 

Again, the weapon you START FROM is the one that will be kept. Again, as documented, that is not the case. Nothing but the elemental buff was applied to the new bow and the elemental was changed from the starting bow and it ate all investments. That is not how any of that is described in the update on it.

The weapon and its investments are kept. The element is not. The elemental bonus is what you want to change. Fusing with a new weapon adds the elemental bonus and the element itself to the old weapon with the investments. It has to work this way, or else there'd be no other way to change the element of a kuva lich weapon without wiping all the investments.

The element is not an investment. You didn't invest anything into the weapon to get that specific element. You used a specific warframe to obtain the element, but an investment is something you lose such that you get something back later. You lost nothing by getting the specific element that you would not have lost getting any other element (ie, time). Therefore, the element of the weapon cannot reasonably be inferred to be an investment.

The weapon you start from is the one that will be kept. You keep the weapon itself (obviously the weapon is not going to change into a different weapon), the name of the weapon, and any investments you've made into it. This does not include the elemental bonus, since that is what you are trying to change.

[IamLoco]

15 hours ago, Cortanis said:

Problem is that is literally not what the update says.

"*PS: It matters which order you Valence Fuse them in. The weapon that you START from, the one where you click "Actions", is the one that will be kept with its investments."

It literally says that the weapon you start with will be kept. It literally states that the one you start with will be kept and the elemental as the investments. Element is one of the main things being invested in the bow choice in the first place. That's literally not what is happening and I documented. Again, to quote myself once again in this.

 

Again, the weapon you START FROM is the one that will be kept. Again, as documented, that is not the case. Nothing but the elemental buff was applied to the new bow and the elemental was changed from the starting bow and it ate all investments. That is not how any of that is described in the update on it.

Just stop being stubborn and accept that you simply made a big mistake.

No one that I´ve heard of had problems understanding this simple text. At this point I am almost convinced you are trolling here.

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

The ONLY thing that can transfer in fusion is the damage bonus type.  

---------------

This absolutely should not be the case though.   Everything should transfer over so we can actually improve the gun and keep the element we want.

We just wanna keep our elemental bonus so we can use the guns while we work on improving them through fusion.  Not letting stuff carry over forces us to use crappy elemental types we dont want until the end.  

For me im using ember to make all my liches because I want that fire ephemera.  So all my kuva weapons suck at being corrosion.   I should be able to make my kuva weapons tox/electric and keep them that even while im making all my liches fire by using my upgraded Kuva gun SECOND and letting everything carry over.  

As is the whole lich thing is a nightmare currently.  

[NinjaZeku]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)AbBaNdOn_ said:

just wanna keep our elemental bonus so we can use the guns while we work on improving them through fusion

So get a duplicate weapon of the element you want.

7 minutes ago, (PS4)AbBaNdOn_ said:

im using ember to make all my liches because I want that fire ephemera.  So all my kuva weapons suck at being corrosion

Ignoring the fact that Corrosive + Heat is pretty dang good,
well, guess you'll just have to wait a little bit with the whole Forma etc routine
if you want the ability to immediately use any duplicate weapon without changing the element.

Or, just keep duplicates of any element, plus a final "right" element one around for fusing all at once, that works just fine, also.

12 minutes ago, (PS4)AbBaNdOn_ said:

As is the whole lich thing is a nightmare currently.  

Only if you expect everything to perfectly fit your personal idea of how things should work,
there is a lot of QOL in regards to the Lich system now, just go with it instead of against it.

[CobraCommanderPrime]

i swear some people just want a 60% of every element from one lich.... then complain there is nothing to do.

You DO NOT LOSE POTATOES, FORMA, LENSES or EXILUS if you choose the weapon WITH them as the base weapon.

if you want an element switch to toxin or electric to aid with corrosive, just hunt with saryn or volt until you get the weapon you want, then add that to a 55%+ of ANY element weapon.
is that so hard?