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[Warframe Critique] Hydroid : Pulling Apart Undertow's Mechanics and Spreading them to a New 2nd/4th


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LINK TO REDDIT ARTICLE

hydroid-pilfering-swarm-build.jpg

 

<<CURRENT POSITIVES OF HYDROID>>

  • [Overall Presence]

    • Hydroid is often sought out for his Pilfering Augment from his 4th which helps players seek out loot they will need. This Pilfering Augment is categorized as a "Loot on Kill" Loot Ability allowing it to stack up on other Loot Abilities that are from different categories.

  • [Tempest Barrage]

    • Tempest Barrage has the ability to lockdown a certain area and its function also can damage and possibly pop Nullifier Crewman Bubbles. With the Corrosive Augment, it can also be a decent Armor Stripping tool.

  • [Undertow]

    • Serves as a useful self-defense tool for Hydroid and as a damaging trap ability. Enemies found sunken inside take increasing DoT and you can pull in newer enemies manually while toggled on. This ability also has special "synergy" with the other 3 of Hydroid's abilities to either capture more enemies or to help quicken the damage it can do, and allies can attack Undertow to make things go faster. Hydroid's Augment also makes his 3rd a support ability granting allies Health Regeneration to whoever is on Undertow.

  • [A Crowd Control Specialist]

    • From locking down a zone with his 1st or 4th, knocking down enemies with his 2nd, or drowning enemies underwater with his 3rd, All four of Hydroid's abilities are crowd control options which can help a player keep him alive in special situations

 

<<CURRENT NEGATIVES OF HYDROID>>

  • [Randomness in Half its Abilities]

    • Useful as Crowd Control Abilities Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm can be, they both still have a bit of randomness to them. (Range helps Tempest Barrage's blast radius effect of course though its base range is 5 m in all ranks).

  • [Tidal Surge]

    • Can be seen from a perspective as another Slash Dash-like ability that has only a special function when Undertow is toggled on. As a Mobility Ability, there are many outside options that are better to use.

  • [Synergy with Undertow can feel a bit Forced]

    • All of Hydroid's abilities can work with Undertow which is a rather unique ability playstyle, but it can be a bit slow and restrictive. Either deal more damage to sunken enemies with Tempest Barrage, try to move your Undertow with Tidal Surge, or just keep your Tentacle Swarm contained in the puddle. This particular synergy kinda makes Hydroid's playstyle a bit too stationary.

  • [Charging Abilities]

    • Hydroid also comes with charging mechanics for Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm which makes him not only a bit more stationary but also a bit on the slow side too.

      • Charging Tempest Barrage max doubles the damage, doubles Energy cost, and increases the duration of the salvo

      • Charging Tentacle Swarm max triples the spawn radius and increases the # of tentacles spawned

  • [Nature of Pilfering Swarm]

    • Pilfering Swarm is a "Loot on Kill" ability which requires an enemy captured by a tentacle to be killed in order to trigger the extra loot. So in this state, players will have to deal with the ragdoll of the ability and kill the enemies before the time runs out.

      • {Comparing to Khora's Pilfering Augment} Unlike Swarm, the chance of Khora's Pilfering Augment is lower but this is compensated with how the Crowd Control of Khora's 4th works, the enemies take double damage from attacks, and Khora can deal shared damage with Whipclaw.

  • [Deep Tendril: Hydroid's Passive]

    • Granted there are many melee types that can make this easier to use and the tendril spawned can be affected by Hydroid's augment, but a common community response to his passive seems to want something a little more effective.

 

<<OVERVIEW ON SUGGESTIONS FOR HYDROID>>

Hydroid's passive is something that will most likely be suggested to change for something more water themed.

As for Tempest Barrage, its ability to damage Nullifier Bubbles and its Corrosive Augment makes it the ability least likely to make major changes, but removing its charge mechanic for something more contained will be something that will be suggested.

With a lot of the community noting how stationary and slow Hydroid feels, there will be one suggestion which pulls Undertow's mechanics and places pieces of them into Tidal Surge and a new 4th ability with an innate Loot Ability effect. This would inevitably turn Undertow into a new ability which has an innate function with its Curative Undertow effect.

Hydroid's current kit has 4 different Crowd Control abilities and I will try hard enough to maintain that template for it.

 

<<HYDROID PASSIVE LIST OF OPTIONS {ORDERED FROM MOST TO LEAST PLAUSIBLE}>>

  • [Pillage]

    • Hydroid converts picked up ammunition to into ammo for current equipped weapon (low-mid percentage).

  • [Impunity]

    • Hydroid reduces the duration of Status Effects inflicted on him by XX%.

  • [Liquid Body]

    • Hydroid's water body can ignore incoming damage at a XX% chance (a reasonable max could be ~15%).

  • [Piracy]

    • Melee attacks from Hydroid recovers X~XX ammo and has a XX% chance to recover XX Health each hit.

  • [Rapidity] Suggested Passive from Reddit Article

    • Within a short time frame, damage inflicted by Hydroid is increased by X% stacking damage and resetting the duration.

 

<<HYDROID FIRST ABILITY SUGGESTIONS : TEMPEST BARRAGE>>

  • Tempest Barrage can now deal Impact/Slash/Puncture damage.

  • (Completely Optional) Removing its holding-down charge mechanic, Tempest Barrage is now a Duration-Toggle which expands its salvo radius over time to its limit. However, only one Tempest Barrage can be out at a time.

  • (Completely Optional) Reduce frequency of Tempest Barrage's salvo rate, but increases accuracy of each salvo to home in on enemies within range and increased damage.

 

<<HYDROID SECOND ABILITY SUGGESTION: NEW TIDAL SURGE>>

  • {Inspired by Wukong's Cloud Walker and Undertow}

  • Hydroid enters his liquid form as the player is allowed free land movement in this state.

    • Hydroid is invisible, invulnerable, and gains increased running speed in this state.

  • Hydroid can move through enemies and staggers them dealing Impact Damage.

  • Tidal Surge ends once duration is over, if Hydroid jumps, rolls, or cancels the toggle.

    • If Tidal Surge ends, Hydroid emits an AOE water splash knocking down surrounding enemies and dealing Slash Damage.

  • (Augment Change Suggestion) [Whirlpool Surge] Entering Tidal Surge creates a whirlpool where Hydroid activates pulling enemies to the center dealing Puncture Damage.

 

<<HYDROID THIRD ABILITY SUGGESTION: NEW UNDERTOW>>

  • {Inspired by Curative Undertow, Oberon's Hallowed Ground and Mag's Counter Pulse}

  • Hydroid expands a wide wave of water stunning foes in its path.

    • All foes hit by the wide wave have their weapons jammed and robotic enemies disabled for X-X seconds

    • The XX m wave expands forward until it reaches XX m

  • The wave leaves behind a square pool of water which slows down enemy movement by XX% and grants allies Health Regeneration. Lasts for XX seconds.

  • (OPTIONAL ADDITIONS OR AUGMENT IDEAS)

    • Enemies on Undertow take increased Elemental Damage (ex. Electric deals XXX% more)

    • Enemies on Undertow have Status Effects inflicted last for XX- XXX% longer.

    • Undertow's duration increases by +X seconds per enemy killed on it.

 

<<HYDROID FOURTH ABILITY SUGGESTION: NEW TENTACLE SWARM>>

  • {Inspired by Vauban's Minelayer [Tether Mine], Undertow, Grendel's Feast, Chroma's Guided Effigy}

  • Hydroid summons his underwater creature which seeks out and grabs as many enemies it can in range to consume until it reaches max capacity (This ability is a Toggle Energy Drain Ability)

  • Enemies caught in the spawn of the water beast are "sunken" inside its stomach as the creature remains visible on the field until duration ends

    • The creature spits out enemies killed inside its stomach and all enemies remaining in the stomach after the ability has ended

  • If there is an enemy within range, the creature extends a tentacle and drags the enemy inside its "sunken" stomach (much like Tether Mine) every few seconds

  • Enemies inside the creature take continuous damage based of a portion of their Health

    • Attacking the creature causes the DoT to increase

  • (OPTIONAL ADDITIONAL EFFECTS) Like Chroma's 4th Augment, you can hold down the ability to have the underwater creature move to a new target location eating more enemies in its path (for extra Energy cost)

 

<<CONCLUDING THOUGHTS>>

To explain a bit further on these suggestions, I did not want to take away having Crowd Control available in each of Hydroid's 4 abilities, but I did not want to make him feel stationary. Hydroid is meant to be the Water-type Warframe, and it always scratched my mind how Hydroid's kit could feel fluid enough like water.

The biggest change is indeed the suggested Undertow which has the Augment's healing effect as part of its base along with a weapon/robot jamming effect to it. Any other added effects (like for instance Electric Attacks on Undertow damage all enemies on it) are all fair game. The Tentacle Swarm suggestion was to make the ability feel more controllable and most of all less random than its current counterpart. Tidal Surge being free movement state and the invisibility perk could make for a decent stealth and surprise effect. I couldn't do much for Hydroid's 1st due to the defense the general community has for it.

There are four different Loot Abilities Warframes currently have, and I feared that changing too much on the Pilfering Swarm Augment could have drastic consequences on how DE could remodel looting in this game. But for Hydroid, his Loot Ability requires enemies caught by the tendrils to be dead to get the extra loot. The flailing around of the current Tentacle Swarm has its issues and Khora's Pilfering Strangledome is rising up to the occasion due to its additional effects. Thus, it should be a bit more important to have Hydroid's 4th be capable of either weakening enemies enough to kill to get the benefit from the Augment.

Undertow is a bit of a tricky subject to talk about Hydroid. Mostly because of how safe of an ability it is. I have even been guilty of going into Interceptions and waiting for minutes of doing nothing but letting enemies be sunken in the thing. Is the ability effective as a protective and stalling kit...yes. Do I feel it being an engaging ability...no. It doesn't help much that I also need to spend additional Energy to move around in it, but there are upsides to this watery fortress.

 

Quote

150?cb=20170418210208

ADDING MORE PRESENCE TO THE WATER CREATURE OF TENTACLE SWARM

Ever since the latest rework done to Hydroid, a lot of players had grown more interest on the possibilities of the creature that spawn from Tentacle Swarm. At the current state of Hydroid, all the ability does in terms of this creature is have it briefly show up before it quickly descends down to the depths.

When it comes to reworking/redesigning Warframes, the mechanical functions aren't the only vital change needed. The visual effects and appearance of abilities are just as important, and I believe Hydroid's 4th ability should have this creature be an important aspect for redesigning the visual effects of a new Tentacle Swarm.

The best example of visual redesign can be seen with Ember. While her 4th ability compared to her previous variant have different functions, the visuals her 4th has deeply sells the impact the ability has in the game and provides an excellent feedback on highlighting who Ember truly is. Hydroid could use that "impact" as well in the future.

In my suggestion for Hydroid's new 4th, I tried to make the creature play a role in having it be a hungry monstrosity from the deep sea under the control of Hydroid as it continuously seeks out and grabs preys with its tendrils and drags them into its jaws. The other visual effects I have been thinking of adding to it can include:

  • Having the creature's animation depict as if it is continuously chomping down any enemy inside its mouth while in sync with the DoT the new Tentacle Swarm will do.
  • Showing water splashes for each "chomp" the creature makes.
  • Add in an ending animation when Tentacle Swarm's duration ends which could either be letting the creature make one more chomp or have it change into a geyser of water showing that it just spits out the consumed enemies.

Once again, it just all comes down to how Hydroid should feel. Getting the mechanics to be updated for the content to come, but also making the visuals of refurbished abilities to feel great.

 

<<QUESTIONS FOR HYDROID MAINS AND PLAYERS ALIKE>>

  • Do you feel Hydroid's current kit is a bit too focused on Undertow?

  • What are your thoughts on the current Tidal Surge?

  • What are your thoughts on the current Tentacle Swarm?

  • What are your thoughts on the current passive of Hydroid?

  • Do you feel that Augments for Hydroid are somewhat necessary for Hydroid?

  • Would you sacrifice the rapid salvo of Tempest Barrage for a surefire AOE Crowd Control replacement making the Corrosive Augment less frequent?

Edited by FoxFX
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Dude as a Hydroid main I would love all of this. A lot of reworks for him want to make him damage dealing over CC, which makes sense considering DE wants to make all new enemies immune to CC. But I actually would love him to stay a CC frame and this rework accomplishes that while giving him some damage and utility options and most importantly, no randomness.

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9 hours ago, (NSW)SantCruz said:

Dude as a Hydroid main I would love all of this. A lot of reworks for him want to make him damage dealing over CC, which makes sense considering DE wants to make all new enemies immune to CC. But I actually would love him to stay a CC frame and this rework accomplishes that while giving him some damage and utility options and most importantly, no randomness.

 

8 hours ago, Xxx-Shinobi-xxX said:

This write up is Fabulous! I would have to say I agree with everything in it at the moment.

Thanks for the feedback. I hope to see some more Hydroid mains come over to share their thoughts on this thread and about their current thoughts about Hydroid.

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150?cb=20170418210208

ADDING MORE PRESENCE TO THE WATER CREATURE OF TENTACLE SWARM

Ever since the latest rework done to Hydroid, a lot of players had grown more interest on the possibilities of the creature that spawn from Tentacle Swarm. At the current state of Hydroid, all the ability does in terms of this creature is have it briefly show up before it quickly descends down to the depths.

When it comes to reworking/redesigning Warframes, the mechanical functions aren't the only vital change needed. The visual effects and appearance of abilities are just as important, and I believe Hydroid's 4th ability should have this creature be an important aspect for redesigning the visual effects of a new Tentacle Swarm.

The best example of visual redesign can be seen with Ember. While her 4th ability compared to her previous variant have different functions, the visuals her 4th has deeply sells the impact the ability has in the game and provides an excellent feedback on highlighting who Ember truly is. Hydroid could use that "impact" as well in the future.

In my suggestion for Hydroid's new 4th, I tried to make the creature play a role in having it be a hungry monstrosity from the deep sea under the control of Hydroid as it continuously seeks out and grabs preys with its tendrils and drags them into its jaws. The other visual effects I have been thinking of adding to it can include:

  • Having the creature's animation depict as if it is continuously chomping down any enemy inside its mouth while in sync with the DoT the new Tentacle Swarm will do.
  • Showing water splashes for each "chomp" the creature makes.
  • Add in an ending animation when Tentacle Swarm's duration ends which could either be letting the creature make one more chomp or have it change into a geyser of water showing that it just spits out the consumed enemies.

Once again, it just all comes down to how Hydroid should feel. Getting the mechanics to be updated for the content to come, but also making the visuals of refurbished abilities to feel great.

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I didn't realize this was posted by FoxFX until after reading this whole thing😅. Not surprisingly, I love it.

Hydroid is one of my mains, and as much as I love him these are all changes that fix issues I've had with hit kit.

Passive - Honestly, any of those are a good upgrade. My personal preference would be for [Impunity] or [Liquid Body] for the theme and function, but I'm happy with whatever. It's not necessarily that his current one is useless, but it really does not fit into his natural gameplay. Slam attacks aren't especially common as far as melee goes, then the chance makes it even worse to spawn when it's useful. I do use Zenistar with him so my stance causes periodic slam attacks that can trigger it, but not reliably. 

 

Tempest Barrage - When spamming this ability it can be very effective for quick cc with little aiming, but I had always wanted it to be a more lasting area control ability so making it a 1-at-a-time toggle ability would be awesome. Splitting up the damage types is also a big must, I hope DE has learned by now that single damage abilities and weapons with any of the non-meta damage types is generally a letdown unless it has high base numbers.

Tidal Surge - Adding greater movement control would be amazing for this ability. With my build I can shoot across decent distances, but unless it's a clear path and a straight shot, or if I need to get through enemies blocking the hallway, I don't use this ability often.

Undertow - I "like" his current undertow, only because it is very powerful in certain situations and I tend to use it often in brief spurts for charging his abilities so I would miss it when it's gone. But I'm also aware those specific situations are not common enough to warrant locking him up. Your suggestions make it a lot more functional, and bring back his healing capability (I was sad to lose space for my Curative Undertow augment when I changed my build around a while back).

Tentacle Swarm - This suggestion I absolutely love. I've suggested several variations of a rework of this ability over the years, but in many of them I've mentioned adding the ability to attack the Kraken to boost the damage. I've also suggested adding an Undertow pool at it's location to pull enemies too, but I like the idea of him eating them even more (+1). The things I hadn't considered were making it a toggle and giving it a paid movement options. I love it.

 

Great rework! I'm still waiting on DE to use your Limbo rework too. 😕 

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I just wonder if they will work on him at all. DE seems overwhelmed now with liches and railjack. I remember after the initial ember and vauban reworks, they made a few changes on a later update promising there would be more updates for them moving forward. We haven't seen that at all and it's seems they forgot due to other concerns. 

Plus, Hydroid gets little love and it seems like you have to really fight tooth and nail for them to look at any frame's kit. Maybe we can get lucky and they look at Hydroid when it's deluxe comes out. But I feel even if they do, they will add changes that do little if anything to actually improve him. 

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I especially love the idea with your 2 and 4.

But I must admit, attacking your own pet might seem a bit...weird.
Wouldn't it be better if it builds around more on synergies between abilities?

Like since his 3 is now making large pools of water, it be nice if the Kraken could reach out and move around freely where water is present. Thus increasing its range and mobility
This could apply to his 1 and 2 as well. Hydroid will move faster 2 where water is present, as well as deal more dmg with his 1, 2 & 4.

His 1 is basically pouring water, so it might be nice if adding more water to your 3 & 4 will increase their effectiveness as well

So what i suggest is a new passive and mechanics upon your already improved ones:

Flood(Passive):
Hydroid's abilities now floods surrounding tiles with water. His abilities effectiveness will increase as more tiles are flooded.
- Flooded tiles will be flooded for a duration of 15 seconds before it goes down a level.
- Enemies affected by deeper waters will have reduced movement speed.
- Duration is effected by mods. Slow is not effected by mods.
Indication of more water can be simply done by color.
- Puddles: Transparent with shimmers. 15% slow
- Shallow Waters: Transparent Light Blue. 30% slow
- River: Blue. 45% slow
- Seas: Dark Blue/Cobalt. 60% slow
- Deep Seas: Pitch Black. 75% slow

Tempest Barrage(1):
Increase Flood level within affected area by 1. If it hits a tile which has not been flooded, it begins with Puddles(1). (Area equal to the abilities range and is effected by mods)

Tidal Surge(2):
Floods wherever Hydroid currently is by 3, Increase Flood level by 1 where he has been. If he leaves a place that has not been flooded, it begins with Shallow Waters(2).

Undertow(3):
Increase Flood level by 2. If he casts it on a place that has not been flooded, it begins with River(3)
Undertow will activate all water levels to gain special effects based on their Flood level.
- Puddles: Enemies attack speed is slowed by 20%, take 10% more dmg from Hydroids other abilities
- Shallow Waters: Enemies attack speed is slowed 40%, take 20% more dmg from Hydroids other abilities
- River: Enemies are half submerged, taking tick dmg per sec. Enemies attack speed is slowed by 60%, take 30% more dmg from Hydroids other abilities
- Seas: Enemies are submerged, drowning to death. take 40% more dmg from Hydroids other abilities. Hydroid regains energy while standing on this tile. (10% per sec)
- Deep Seas: Enemies are completely submerged, drowning to death even faster. Take 50% more dmg from Hydroids other abilites, Hydroid regains energy and life while standing here(10% sec). Your summoned Kraken will pull any enemy toward this tile who comes too close to these tiles.

Swarming Tentacles(4):
Tiles affected by your summoned Kraken will always be flooded as Deep Seas. Your Kraken's trail will increase Flood level by 2. 
If he leave a place that has not been flooded, it begins with Shallow Waters(2)
Will freely move around tiles that are Deep seas. Moving your Kraken to Deep Seas tiles will not cost any extra energy.
Your Kraken can pull enemies toward the Deep seas and submerge them while your Undertow(3) is on.
Your Kraken will thrash harder on enemies while he is showered by Tempest Barrage, increasing Damage by an extra 15%.

 

I think this added Flooding mechanic would actually make him more water/deep sea themed then ever, and would go great with your rework.
Not to mention it would be visually appealing flooding a whole room and see your enemies drowned to death while your Kraken feasts on your enemies.
A watery grave indeed.

How do you think?

Edited by Shaburanigud
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7 hours ago, (NSW)SantCruz said:

I just wonder if they will work on him at all. DE seems overwhelmed now with liches and railjack. I remember after the initial ember and vauban reworks, they made a few changes on a later update promising there would be more updates for them moving forward. We haven't seen that at all and it's seems they forgot due to other concerns. 

Plus, Hydroid gets little love and it seems like you have to really fight tooth and nail for them to look at any frame's kit. Maybe we can get lucky and they look at Hydroid when it's deluxe comes out. But I feel even if they do, they will add changes that do little if anything to actually improve him. 

You are correct. Digital Extremes has their hands full with other work, but the time will come when Hydroid will be discussed further on in the future. His Deluxe Skin's release could be a time where things may pick up about him.

When ti comes to threads I have made like these ones, I generally don't mind if [DE] never sees nor if they do see them. I am mostly interested in what you and the general community thinks about Hydroid and his future in the game.

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On 2020-02-19 at 3:28 PM, Shaburanigud said:

I especially love the idea with your 2 and 4.

But I must admit, attacking your own pet might seem a bit...weird.
Wouldn't it be better if it builds around more on synergies between abilities?

Like since his 3 is now making large pools of water, it be nice if the Kraken could reach out and move around freely where water is present. Thus increasing its range and mobility
This could apply to his 1 and 2 as well. Hydroid will move faster 2 where water is present, as well as deal more dmg with his 1, 2 & 4.

His 1 is basically pouring water, so it might be nice if adding more water to your 3 & 4 will increase their effectiveness as well

So what i suggest is a new passive and mechanics upon your already improved ones:

Flood(Passive):
Hydroid's abilities now floods surrounding tiles with water. His abilities effectiveness will increase as more tiles are flooded.
- Flooded tiles will be flooded for a duration of 15 seconds before it goes down a level.
- Enemies affected by deeper waters will have reduced movement speed.
- Duration is effected by mods. Slow is not effected by mods.
Indication of more water can be simply done by color.
- Puddles: Transparent with shimmers. 15% slow
- Shallow Waters: Transparent Light Blue. 30% slow
- River: Blue. 45% slow
- Seas: Dark Blue/Cobalt. 60% slow
- Deep Seas: Pitch Black. 75% slow

Tempest Barrage(1):
Increase Flood level within affected area by 1. If it hits a tile which has not been flooded, it begins with Puddles(1). (Area equal to the abilities range and is effected by mods)

Tidal Surge(2):
Floods wherever Hydroid currently is by 3, Increase Flood level by 1 where he has been. If he leaves a place that has not been flooded, it begins with Shallow Waters(2).

Undertow(3):
Increase Flood level by 2. If he casts it on a place that has not been flooded, it begins with River(3)
Undertow will activate all water levels to gain special effects based on their Flood level.
- Puddles: Enemies attack speed is slowed by 20%, take 10% more dmg from Hydroids other abilities
- Shallow Waters: Enemies attack speed is slowed 40%, take 20% more dmg from Hydroids other abilities
- River: Enemies are half submerged, taking tick dmg per sec. Enemies attack speed is slowed by 60%, take 30% more dmg from Hydroids other abilities
- Seas: Enemies are submerged, drowning to death. take 40% more dmg from Hydroids other abilities. Hydroid regains energy while standing on this tile. (10% per sec)
- Deep Seas: Enemies are completely submerged, drowning to death even faster. Take 50% more dmg from Hydroids other abilites, Hydroid regains energy and life while standing here(10% sec). Your summoned Kraken will pull any enemy toward this tile who comes too close to these tiles.

Swarming Tentacles(4):
Tiles affected by your summoned Kraken will always be flooded as Deep Seas. Your Kraken's trail will increase Flood level by 2. 
If he leave a place that has not been flooded, it begins with Shallow Waters(2)
Will freely move around tiles that are Deep seas. Moving your Kraken to Deep Seas tiles will not cost any extra energy.
Your Kraken can pull enemies toward the Deep seas and submerge them while your Undertow(3) is on.
Your Kraken will thrash harder on enemies while he is showered by Tempest Barrage, increasing Damage by an extra 15%.

 

I think this added Flooding mechanic would actually make him more water/deep sea themed then ever, and would go great with your rework.
Not to mention it would be visually appealing flooding a whole room and see your enemies drowned to death while your Kraken feasts on your enemies.
A watery grave indeed.

How do you think?

 

Attacking the pet does feel a bit weird I have to admit. Perhaps this could be rectified somehow in due time.

I tried to suggest these changes to that ideas for synergy can be left to anyone's interpretation and imagination. All of those that you made are possible options.

Having a flood passive like you have suggested could be seen as a bit powerful for a passive especially for the 70% slowdown, but I would like to see how other people will respond to this idea a bit more. I could add your post to the OP to see if this is something you want to be highlighted if you wish.

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On 2020-02-19 at 7:01 AM, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I didn't realize this was posted by FoxFX until after reading this whole thing😅. Not surprisingly, I love it.

Hydroid is one of my mains, and as much as I love him these are all changes that fix issues I've had with hit kit.

Passive - Honestly, any of those are a good upgrade. My personal preference would be for [Impunity] or [Liquid Body] for the theme and function, but I'm happy with whatever. It's not necessarily that his current one is useless, but it really does not fit into his natural gameplay. Slam attacks aren't especially common as far as melee goes, then the chance makes it even worse to spawn when it's useful. I do use Zenistar with him so my stance causes periodic slam attacks that can trigger it, but not reliably. 

 

Tempest Barrage - When spamming this ability it can be very effective for quick cc with little aiming, but I had always wanted it to be a more lasting area control ability so making it a 1-at-a-time toggle ability would be awesome. Splitting up the damage types is also a big must, I hope DE has learned by now that single damage abilities and weapons with any of the non-meta damage types is generally a letdown unless it has high base numbers.

Tidal Surge - Adding greater movement control would be amazing for this ability. With my build I can shoot across decent distances, but unless it's a clear path and a straight shot, or if I need to get through enemies blocking the hallway, I don't use this ability often.

Undertow - I "like" his current undertow, only because it is very powerful in certain situations and I tend to use it often in brief spurts for charging his abilities so I would miss it when it's gone. But I'm also aware those specific situations are not common enough to warrant locking him up. Your suggestions make it a lot more functional, and bring back his healing capability (I was sad to lose space for my Curative Undertow augment when I changed my build around a while back).

Tentacle Swarm - This suggestion I absolutely love. I've suggested several variations of a rework of this ability over the years, but in many of them I've mentioned adding the ability to attack the Kraken to boost the damage. I've also suggested adding an Undertow pool at it's location to pull enemies too, but I like the idea of him eating them even more (+1). The things I hadn't considered were making it a toggle and giving it a paid movement options. I love it.

 

Great rework! I'm still waiting on DE to use your Limbo rework too. 😕 

Thanks again for the support.

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I wanted to make a point about Hydroid and Grendel and how the proposed change to Tentacle Swarm differs to Grendel's 1st, but I may skip out on that topic unless some of you are interested.

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I'd hope I could also receive some more feedback on Hydroid as a whole, but I will let this thread rest since I feel there is enough told for now.

Frost will be my next target to critique on, and I hope this one is a bit more thorough.

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As a guy who only plays Hydroid to afk in a corner for Polymer Bundles or Argon Crystals, I do like these changes.  

I'm not sure if this was already mentioned, but perhaps for simplicity's sake, his 4 would just summon his creature that just instantly slams it's tentacles down all around him, knocking down all enemies almost instantly. Think a REALLY low duration Rhino stomp. Charging it could make it slam multiple times, spaced out so that enemies get up, then are slammed back down. Enemies that die while knocked down (or that are just affected), drop more loot. Hold 4, creature comes out, does a short roar, everything around it is on the ground for a second. Creature slams again. 1 more time. All impact damage of course. \  \  o  /  /  *pomf*

I don't think he should be invisible in his 2. He'd still be a pile of water right? Just moving very fast. No need to make him a cloud.

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@doominator10Honestly, I would not want him to have ANY charging abilities if he was reworked. Most of the time, I really only want to the charged version of abilities. He already has very long cast to ability activation times and then adding the addition of the charge just means it takes forever to get the desired effect. Hell, charging abilities often means you will die before it goes off. So yeah, no charged abilities and make cast times instant. If Hydroid's abilities were OP, I would understand the casts not being instant but they are underpowered if anything.

What I like about @FoxFX's changes is that they are good, not OP, and stick with the CC focused frame he is supposed to be while adding (potential) damage and utility. If changes like this were actually integrated I would still want the removal of charged abilities and the huge lag between casting and activation of abilities. 

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On 2020-02-29 at 12:33 AM, doominator10 said:

As a guy who only plays Hydroid to afk in a corner for Polymer Bundles or Argon Crystals, I do like these changes.  

I'm not sure if this was already mentioned, but perhaps for simplicity's sake, his 4 would just summon his creature that just instantly slams it's tentacles down all around him, knocking down all enemies almost instantly. Think a REALLY low duration Rhino stomp. Charging it could make it slam multiple times, spaced out so that enemies get up, then are slammed back down. Enemies that die while knocked down (or that are just affected), drop more loot. Hold 4, creature comes out, does a short roar, everything around it is on the ground for a second. Creature slams again. 1 more time. All impact damage of course. \  \  o  /  /  *pomf*

I don't think he should be invisible in his 2. He'd still be a pile of water right? Just moving very fast. No need to make him a cloud.

I only suggested the invisibility due to the current Undertow making Hydroid invisible. As for Tentacle Swarm, the big problem I found with any suggestions for it is how its Pilfering Augment works and how changing Tentacle Swarm to be something besides a "capture" ability could mess with looting in the long run.

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3 hours ago, FoxFX said:

besides a "capture" ability

Iirc, the tentacles only need to touch an enemy once for the current augment to apply before they die. Could do the same / similar things with a new 4, even if they don't capture enemies.

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Will be heavily studying up on how the new Enemy Stats and Damage-Type changes have affected Hydroid's new performances. May even post an excerpt on the subject.

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Hydroid got robbed of a rework completely. I main Hydroid and I can confidently say he's unbearable to play. The looming thought that there's way better choices for every mission type is so bad. He's not even that good at farming, it's not fun to have to stop fighting while you charge up your 4, just to have to do it again because it didn't hit half the enemies, or new enemies entered the AOE. Also when his rework dropped, they should've made his wave scale in size based on range.

My own take is that his passive should be about gaining bonuses when standing on water, like shield regen, reload speed, cc immunity, or whatever

 - His 1 should be the same, but spread water puddles similar to his 3, but over a larger area

- His 2 should be a toggle that gives him movespeed, or some other buff, and leaves a trail of water under him. This one's kinda up in the air, I think it should definitely be another tool for leaving puddles, and I like it as a movement tool, but I think wave is really bad right now, and I think it's unrealistic to expect them to make a wave that's fully controllable, so idk. It's more believable that they get rid of it before having to make a model that changes directions mid wave, still looks good, and isn't super clunky

- His 3 should be tentacle swarm, and it should sink enemies in water (This would make it consistent and reliable), it's incredibly weak as an ult anyway. Also pilfer is so integral to Hydroid that it should just be part of his kit

- His 4 should be anything else. No ideas in particular, just not tentacle swarm. Maybe something that's more horror of the deep style, like lashing out in all directions with tentacles and pulling enemies to him and doing something to them, eating them or something. Maybe something more piratey, like stealing potential drops from living enemies in an aoe and getting a dmg buff based on what he steals. He is missing some scaling dmg after all.

I think this branches him into other things beside defense, gets rid of his trash ass cc, emphasizes the puddle part that people like, and speeds up his gameplay

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If tentacle swarm is kept in a hypothetical rework there are definitely many changes that need to be made to it:

 

1) Decrease cast time, remove charge mechanic, and make it cast instantly instead of the time delay that gets Hydroid killed unless he is in his puddle

2) Currently, if you invest in power strength the initial hit from tentacle swarm launches all enemies away which can be annoying when they go far away. This should just be removed and grab enemies from the get go.

3) Enemies it grabs onto get flailed around so hard it difficult to aim at them. They should be held in place and damage can be done from tentacles constructing victims rather than whipping them

4) There is a cap on number of tentacles that cannot be increased. Therefore adding range to this reduces it's potency since there will be gaps where enemies can walk straight through. This is compounded by the already RNG nature of where tentacles appear. Honestly, the problem with them increasing how many are made is likely due to issues if multiple Hydroids each have an instance of this ability up and how it would affect how the game runs. I'm not to sure what could be done other than it having a set max range that more evenly distributes tentacles

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On 2020-03-06 at 12:01 AM, Sahiratu said:

Love the topic! 

Oh btw, Barrage is unusable now because of impact proc effect. Hope they fix it soon

I feared that was going to be a case. What are your thoughts on Tempest Barrage instead dealing Blast?

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