[Warframe Critique] Hydroid : Pulling Apart Undertow's Mechanics and Spreading them to a New 2nd/4th

[AzulMage]

2 minutes ago, YagoXiten said:

The cast time on it is one handed and actually pretty brief. The 1 second delay is the cast animation plus the activation delay. It's not something that hurts its function, nor is it unique to Hydroid. Most persistent / deployed CC abilities have a delay. It could be reduced without hurting him, but its presence isn't making him worse. Again, I'm not saying that there aren't things that could change with it, but that there's nothing that actually needs to. The fact that it has a bit of a delay isn't what makes him a lackluster choice for a squad slot.

I'm not sure what your issue with the charge feature is. If you don't want to use it you don't have to. It's sometimes nice to have an instance last twice as long, and there's plenty of opportunities to charge it when you're recharging shields or healing during Undertow.

It does 750 to 3000 damage, or 3000 to 12000 damage on a charge, over its duration if you assume they get hit by at least one salvo per second. Miasma does 7200. I'm honestly not sure why you think it doesn't deal damage. Prior to the Corrosive changes I was killing level 120 Bombards with a handful of charged casts and my build only has 100% Strength and 150% Duration. It's nothing to write home about, but it's sure as hell not something to balk at, either.

Those things occur pretty frequently, though. And it's useful for moving around inside of Undertow, too You can also use it to group enemies into a corner so you can melee them or back up and AoE them. It's also quite useful for separating an Ancient Healer from a group of enemies, or for extending your invulnerability when exiting Undertow when an Ancient Healer or a Nullifier or something is around. Also, if you weren't aware, there's a useful animation cancel you can do with Tidal Surge and Undertow where you'll perform a normal Tidal Surge at half speed. You activate Undertow, then use Tidal Surge, then immediately after that you deactivate Undertow. The timing is pretty tight. Maybe it's not an ability that you use all that much, but that's not the same thing as not useful, you know?

Thankfully I don't think they'll ever get rid of Undertow. Unfortunately, I don't think they'll rework Tentacle Swarm much, either. They seem to like it too much. I agree there should be room for fun powers like Pulverize or Switch Teleport, but this, IDK. I'm at the point where I just want it to spit out health orbs or give me armor or cause puncture procs or make enemies T-pose or just more than quintuple its damage. I want it to do something tangible other than make it harder to aim.

 

My issue with the charge feature is that it makes a slow ability slower. It's not that I don't want to use it, I want the charged version (more powerful, larger radius, etc) to just be the only version of the ability and be based off of tap. Not using it is not a solution as I find that version the only one worth using despite the wait. And 1 second for the animation is a big deal in a fast paced game. "A handful of charged casts" is way too much time. Think about how long it takes to charge and then the animation. At that point use your weapons and you deal way more damage at a much faster rate. Granted, the ability is CC not damage, I only mentioned the damage because you wrote about it being good and it definitely is not. Also, a CC ability should not have to be cast more than once to do its job effectively, which is why I do not agree with casting it multiple times to lockdown just ONE spot as opposed to doing multiple casts to properly lockdown multiple spots. Essentially, it is  CC ability that is lacking in CC capabilities since it is slow, cumbersome, and requires more than one cast to be effective in any of it's jobs. It can use many improvements. 

"Not the same thing as not useful" just means there is a niche time it can be used but otherwise... meh. 

Look, Hydroid is still my main but I can't honestly say that any of his abilities are good as they are. At best they are mediocre. At worse, they are his 2. I stick with him because I have already invested so much into the frame and I am a sucker for water elementals in all media even when they are lackluster.

[YagoXiten]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)SantCruz said:

My issue with the charge feature is that it makes a slow ability slower. It's not that I don't want to use it, I want the charged version (more powerful, larger radius, etc) to just be the only version of the ability and be based off of tap. Not using it is not a solution as I find that version the only one worth using despite the wait. And 1 second for the animation is a big deal in a fast paced game. "A handful of charged casts" is way too much time. Think about how long it takes to charge and then the animation. At that point use your weapons and you deal way more damage at a much faster rate. Granted, the ability is CC not damage, I only mentioned the damage because you wrote about it being good and it definitely is not. Also, a CC ability should not have to be cast more than once to do its job effectively, which is why I do not agree with casting it multiple times to lockdown just ONE spot as opposed to doing multiple casts to properly lockdown multiple spots. Essentially, it is  CC ability that is lacking in CC capabilities since it is slow, cumbersome, and requires more than one cast to be effective in any of it's jobs. It can use many improvements. 

"Not the same thing as not useful" just means there is a niche time it can be used but otherwise... meh. 

Look, Hydroid is still my main but I can't honestly say that any of his abilities are good as they are. At best they are mediocre. At worse, they are his 2. I stick with him because I have already invested so much into the frame and I am a sucker for water elementals in all media even when they are lackluster.

It only takes 1.67 seconds to charge it with Natural Talent, that's really not that long. Warframe isn't so fast paced that a second delay or a 1.67 charge time is a serious issue. Those are quirks, not weaknesses. Obviously my five Forma and fully modded weapons deal more damage than my cheap CC ability, but it deals enough damage that you can seriously injure or even outright kill light enemies like Chargers, Butchers, or Crewman without even really trying to even against end game content. That's pretty potent, especially in comparison to a lot of other frames and their utility powers.

Honestly, it sounds like you stick with Hydroid because of the sunk cost fallacy and that you want him to be something radically different than what he is, whether that's what he should be or not (and this is true for a lot of people in a lot of rework threads). Like back when Volt got his rework the official feedback thread was flooded with people suggesting 'improvements' to him that involved complete reworks to Shock and Overload/Discharge which had little resemblance to what he already had. I get it can be frustrating to not have something live up to your thematic fantasy, and sometimes those ideas can be helpful, like when a frame has an ability like Mesa's 1 or Trinity's 1 or Excalibur's old 3 which are dead in the water. But Hydroid's not in that bad of a spot. He doesn't need radical changes and totally new powers. It's not necessarily wrong to talk about those ideas, but they're not doing anyone who is a fan of what's already there any favors, and they aren't likely to get implemented. And the one ability they probably could do that for, Tentacle Swarm, they won't because its always been tied to his identity.

That's kind of why I'm in the thread. It's been sitting on the front page for awhile, and most of it reads, to me, like a collection of people who either do not play Hydroid or who play Hydroid but would much rather be playing something that isn't Hydroid but that still has Hydroid's name and water theme attached.

[AzulMage]

2 minutes ago, YagoXiten said:

It only takes 1.67 seconds to charge it with Natural Talent, that's really not that long. Warframe isn't so fast paced that a second delay or a 1.67 charge time is a serious issue. Those are quirks, not weaknesses. Obviously my five Forma and fully modded weapons deal more damage than my cheap CC ability, but it deals enough damage that you can seriously injure or even outright kill light enemies like Chargers, Butchers, or Crewman without even really trying to even against end game content. That's pretty potent, especially in comparison to a lot of other frames and their utility powers.

Honestly, it sounds like you stick with Hydroid because of the sunk cost fallacy and that you want him to be something radically different than what he is, whether that's what he should be or not (and this is true for a lot of people in a lot of rework threads). Like back when Volt got his rework the official feedback thread was flooded with people suggesting 'improvements' to him that involved complete reworks to Shock and Overload/Discharge which had little resemblance to what he already had. I get it can be frustrating to not have something live up to your thematic fantasy, and sometimes those ideas can be helpful, like when a frame has an ability like Mesa's 1 or Trinity's 1 or Excalibur's old 3 which are dead in the water. But Hydroid's not in that bad of a spot. He doesn't need radical changes and totally new powers. It's not necessarily wrong to talk about those ideas, but they're not doing anyone who is a fan of what's already there any favors, and they aren't likely to get implemented. And the one ability they probably could do that for, Tentacle Swarm, they won't because its always been tied to his identity.

That's kind of why I'm in the thread. It's been sitting on the front page for awhile, and most of it reads, to me, like a collection of people who either do not play Hydroid or who play Hydroid but would much rather be playing something that isn't Hydroid but that still has Hydroid's name and water theme attached.

Not at all. I see what he has to offer but think he is a few tweaks from being a solid frame. Except for his 2 I actually like his abilities. That doesn't mean I can't see where they are at fault and there are definitely spots there. I don't think love for something means you can't criticize or see where improvement is necessary. Hell, I'm advocating for Hydroid to stay a CC frame in a game that continues to make CC less viable with every new enemy introduced. 

This a post about changes to Hydroid so of course I would only discuss what I do not like about him. Overall every other frame (except Hildryn) is boring to me. I do think it's interesting that you have such a distaste for tentacle swarm while I enjoy it outside of the things I mentioned. To me, that ability defines him more than his 1 or 2 for me, yet you clearly prefer those. I wouldn't accuse you of disliking him as a whole just because you think his 4 needs to be replaced and change what in my mind creates his identity. If I didn't care about Hydroid overall I would not be putting this energy into a post the devs will certainly not look at or care to take suggestions from. 

[FoxFX]

Been a lot of Zephyr rework posts made, but I have done one before and will have to leave it to the more vocal BirdFramePrime to handle that notion.

On 2020-03-13 at 8:34 PM, (NSW)SantCruz said:

Not at all. I see what he has to offer but think he is a few tweaks from being a solid frame. Except for his 2 I actually like his abilities. That doesn't mean I can't see where they are at fault and there are definitely spots there. I don't think love for something means you can't criticize or see where improvement is necessary. Hell, I'm advocating for Hydroid to stay a CC frame in a game that continues to make CC less viable with every new enemy introduced. 

This a post about changes to Hydroid so of course I would only discuss what I do not like about him. Overall every other frame (except Hildryn) is boring to me. I do think it's interesting that you have such a distaste for tentacle swarm while I enjoy it outside of the things I mentioned. To me, that ability defines him more than his 1 or 2 for me, yet you clearly prefer those. I wouldn't accuse you of disliking him as a whole just because you think his 4 needs to be replaced and change what in my mind creates his identity. If I didn't care about Hydroid overall I would not be putting this energy into a post the devs will certainly not look at or care to take suggestions from. 

I feel when it comes to Hydroid, I felt that his theme of being the "Water Manipulator" to be what should define him most. Water is fluid and adaptable, has no true shape, it has the power to sustain as it also has the power to kill. There are some things I see in the current Hydroid that seems to fit that feel, but I personally feel improvements especially with how evolving the game is should be warranted in the future.

[FoxFX]

Thinking of another way Hydroid's Tempest Barrage could be redesigned. Give me a few moments to present an addition to it later.

[Famecans]

On 2020-02-17 at 9:25 AM, FoxFX said:

Do you feel Hydroid's current kit is a bit too focused on Undertow?

It is not my main frame but I can summarize my experience: Hydroid is a frame with liquid theme and everything that is liquid is associated with fluids, fluids fill spaces, fluids are mobile and fluids are fast but the skills of hydroid do not do that, hydroid seems a puddle of water that consumes a lot of energy.

75% of Hydroid's abilities are to do damage and move. I consider Undertow to be a mobile skill as there is synergy with Tidal Surge, so we can say that hydroid is a mobile frame with bad damage skills and bad mobility skills. Its only popular ability (Tentacle Swarm) is not mobile. Tentacle Swarm is a slow skill; Tentacle Swarm is a stationary skill and is contradictory to the kit; Khora is a warframe with 50% of the stationary abilities ("Ensnare" and "Strangledome") but the animations of Ensnare and Strangledome are quick and simple skills.

On 2020-02-17 at 9:25 AM, FoxFX said:

What are your thoughts on the current Tidal Surge?

I love the design of this skill mainly synergizing with Underflow but the cost of energy and gameplay is clumsy, the delay in turning into fluid is clumsy. Your suggestion to be similar as a wukong cloud is great, I can suggest more if the DE wants something different: the water wall needs to break containers within range; the water wall needs to collect items in range and feed hydroid with Energy Orb, Health Orb, Ammo, mods ...; the water wall needs to synergize with Tentagle swarm; the water wall when synergized with Tentacle Swarm needs to move items and enemies anywhere (like grendel); the water wall needs to jump high places, the jump can be similar to a water bubble.

On 2020-02-17 at 9:25 AM, FoxFX said:

What are your thoughts on the current Tentacle Swarm?

This skill is useful but needs to be quick to summon, as I mentioned earlier it would be interesting if we could move this Loch Ness monster and its tentacles; the Loch Ness monster and all enemies of the tentacles are absorbed by Underflow and Tidal Surge will move everything, after the move all enemies are expelled, Loch Ness Monster and tentacles reappear; We need more tentacles and tentacles should trap more than one enemy; hydroid will become 100% mobile, hydroid will sweep and accumulate enemies anywhere on the map and everything will continue with the same farm function.

On 2020-02-17 at 9:25 AM, FoxFX said:

Do you feel that Augments for Hydroid are somewhat necessary for Hydroid?

If each tentacle catches the attention of enemies within 10 meters with the same mechanics to accumulate damage from Octavia Mallet, all tentacles and the farm system will be functional at any level.

On 2020-02-17 at 9:25 AM, FoxFX said:

Would you sacrifice the rapid salvo of Tempest Barrage for a surefire AOE Crowd Control replacement making the Corrosive Augment less frequent?

As I mentioned earlier, I don't have much experience with hydroid but I support all your suggestions. I think that this frame needs help before any other frame.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Famecans

[FoxFX]

I'd like to share some thoughts on the announcement of a new Water-like Warframe coming soon for Sisters of Parvos.

[FoxFX]

I'll be preparing a Rhino Critique namely for the 1st and 4th ability.

As for this Hydroid critique, I may revisit it with a more clearer point and better suggestions.

[(XBOX)RagingSurfer]

You make some decent points and these are some good ideas. In fact I just posted my rework ideas for Hydroid that have some similar concepts. If you would like I’d appreciate your thoughts on my rework.

Edited September 17, 2022 by (XBOX)RagingSurfer

[FoxFX]

The next Warframe I will be critiquing will be Caliban. As for this Hydroid Critique, I will revise a few things on the topic of the Warframe in the future.

[_4shes]

3 hours ago, FoxFX said:

The next Warframe I will be critiquing will be Caliban. As for this Hydroid Critique, I will revise a few things on the topic of the Warframe in the future.

You should make a youtube channel! :D

[FoxFX]

On 2022-10-06 at 9:45 PM, _4shes said:

You should make a youtube channel! :D

I would, but outside duties would hinder me a lot.

[quxier]

On 2020-02-17 at 1:25 PM, FoxFX said:

HYDROID PASSIVE LIST OF OPTIONS {ORDERED FROM MOST TO LEAST PLAUSIBLE}>>

• [Pillage]

  • Hydroid converts picked up ammunition to into ammo for current equipped weapon (low-mid percentage).

So when I'm running Carrier (99% of time), ammo munition (mod converts ammo per weapon), don't use too much ammo, use melee or abilities... this passive is useless? Don't make passive that is useless with certain condition, like Calibans 50% damage reduction is useless with Adaptation.

On 2020-02-17 at 1:25 PM, FoxFX said:

HYDROID PASSIVE LIST OF OPTIONS

I think current passive should be increased/buffed instead of changing it completely. It's unique so it should stay in some form.

 

On 2020-02-17 at 1:25 PM, FoxFX said:

Tidal Surge ends once duration is over, if Hydroid jumps, rolls, or cancels the toggle.

• If Tidal Surge ends, Hydroid emits an AOE water splash knocking down surrounding enemies and dealing Slash Damage.

Just make deactivation on ability key press and duration end. Maybe attack (gun only?) if you want make it less damage'y.

On 2020-02-17 at 1:25 PM, FoxFX said:

•  

• What are your thoughts on the current Tidal Surge?

It's to solve problem they created (Undertow slow movement -> Tidal surge move fast). As noted I tried different abilities. Vial rush of Lavos is nice as it proc cold and is on cooldown (no energy needed, but some time). Kullervo's could be great if it wasn't bugged and they wanted to change it. Still it (Kulllervo) is pretty interesting interaction.

 

[FoxFX]

On 2023-08-06 at 11:39 PM, quxier said:

So when I'm running Carrier (99% of time), ammo munition (mod converts ammo per weapon), don't use too much ammo, use melee or abilities... this passive is useless? Don't make passive that is useless with certain condition, like Calibans 50% damage reduction is useless with Adaptation.

 

On 2023-08-06 at 11:39 PM, quxier said:

I think current passive should be increased/buffed instead of changing it completely. It's unique so it should stay in some form.

I'd like to re-iterate that the list I presented at that time were ones I felt fit the theme that Hydroid is designed around (water, pirate). I also see your stances on useless passives while (despite that Caliban's share his defensive effect with others in the party in affinity, so perhaps DE did this as a trade-off). I feel that while yes Carrier exists, but so does other Companions out there that several players prefer too such as Dethcube, the Infested Dogs, and even Kavats as strong examples.

My stance on Hydroid's passive stems on my understanding on the current state of Warframe as a game: You play as very mobile space ninjas with fast-paced gun & swordplay. Thus why I made these suggestions to at least cut off the randomness from his passive, his 1st, and for the crowd control of his Tentacle Swarm.

The tentacles spawned from his passive are also affected by Pilfering Swarm. That would give Hydroid access to an almost free-cost drop loot gimmick, and I can't really see DE allowing that on any Warframe. It would just be a passive that makes his 4th ability completely irrelevant to use.

I respect that you wish to maintain the passive with all its faults; I can't agree with making it more likely to happen. It would overshadow use of his current 4th ability.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, FoxFX said:

(despite that Caliban's share his defensive effect with others in the party in affinity, so perhaps DE did this as a trade-off).

Others can Equip Adaptation as well.

2 hours ago, FoxFX said:

I feel that while yes Carrier exists, but so does other Companions out there that several players prefer too such as Dethcube, the Infested Dogs, and even Kavats as strong examples.

Yes, but FOR CARRIER USERS another ammo would be useless.

2 hours ago, FoxFX said:

The tentacles spawned from his passive are also affected by Pilfering Swarm. That would give Hydroid access to an almost free-cost drop loot gimmick, and I can't really see DE allowing that on any Warframe. It would just be a passive that makes his 4th ability completely irrelevant to use.

I respect that you wish to maintain the passive with all its faults; I can't agree with making it more likely to happen. It would overshadow use of his current 4th ability.

Well... you have to JUST slam like madman. I don't see it as free. 99% players wanting more loot wouldn't bother to do it.

 

[FoxFX]

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Others can Equip Adaptation as well.

 

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Yes, but FOR CARRIER USERS another ammo would be useless.

Understandable, but so can be said for Prime Sure Footed with Atlas or Valkyr's passive, Equilibrium with Equinox, Energy-Mods with Hildryn or Lavos, Noise Reduction Mods with Banshee.

I get the want to support the majority or the meta, but there is still room and flexibility to expand to other avenues. It's all a question of how fun and/or functional it can be.

[quxier]

On 2023-08-11 at 2:22 AM, FoxFX said:

On 2023-08-10 at 6:14 AM, quxier said:

Yes, but FOR CARRIER USERS another ammo would be useless.

Understandable, but so can be said for Prime Sure Footed with Atlas or Valkyr's passive, Equilibrium with Equinox, Energy-Mods with Hildryn or Lavos, Noise Reduction Mods with Banshee.

Yeah, not every frame/weapon/gear is good.

On 2023-08-11 at 2:22 AM, FoxFX said:

I get the want to support the majority or the meta, but there is still room and flexibility to expand to other avenues. It's all a question of how fun and/or functional it can be.

However "more ammo" isn't fun.

[FoxFX]

With the Tennocon confirming Hydroid's rework AND the confirmation that a new ability is coming with it, I can now assume that one of Hydroid's abilities needs to be sacrificed for this new incoming one.

Out of the current roster of abilities Hydroid has, my take on which one is going to go has to be Undertow. The stationary and slow-mobility it has goes completely against the design philosophy behind this game's current gameplay. At best, some parts of it could mesh and be combined into Tidal Surge for free-moving.

 

What are your thoughts now the announcement for Hydroid?

Edited August 27, 2023 by FoxFX

[Venefik]

 IMO, there is no way they'll remove Undertow. It is probably his most or second most iconic ability, and it could be pretty fun to use a modernized version of this skill. For example, a solution to this "sacrificing a skill" issue would be to get rid of the charge mechanic and replace it with tap/hold for alternate modes, like Protea's nades. His ult could spawn puddles, costing 50 energy on tap each (or 25 if it no longer captures enemies), with around 15/20s duration. They would behave exactly like now, but would no longer be a channel and would synergize with his other abilities. Hitting a puddle with his 1 could cause it to splash ocean water that corrodes enemy armor and shields, removing % of max on every hit; His 2 could automatically enter a puddle when it contacts one after hold-casting, which would then initiate a channel, making him invulnerable like now, hold-casting his 2 while inside a puddle automatically moves him to the nearest puddle within a certain radius; and his hold-cast ult would then cost 100 energy to summon his pet, and would spawn additional tentacles from any existing puddles, automatically applying pilfering effect (when equipped) to any puddles that added tentacles spawn from. Then he would have a free skill slot. Not to mention how he would now be able to benefit from shooting his own puddles to spread damage to captured enemies, making him a CC frame that can deal pretty good damage.

 And these are just random ideas I just came up with right now without much thought. An updated Undertow could be crazy good and this ability has a lot of potential both for usefulness but also a lot of fun.

 Oh, and his pet should definitely stop flailing enemies around. The tentacles could entangle affected enemies and provide some form of debuff, like a slow, though personally I'd like something a little more creative, like a decrease to affected enemies' damage dealt and the ability to disable enemy skills. Utility debuffs and CC could make him a pretty nice frame to have around, and would probably make him pretty fun to play.

[FoxFX]

On 2023-08-27 at 9:45 PM, Venefik said:

 IMO, there is no way they'll remove Undertow. It is probably his most or second most iconic ability, and it could be pretty fun to use a modernized version of this skill. For example, a solution to this "sacrificing a skill" issue would be to get rid of the charge mechanic and replace it with tap/hold for alternate modes, like Protea's nades. His ult could spawn puddles, costing 50 energy on tap each (or 25 if it no longer captures enemies), with around 15/20s duration. They would behave exactly like now, but would no longer be a channel and would synergize with his other abilities. Hitting a puddle with his 1 could cause it to splash ocean water that corrodes enemy armor and shields, removing % of max on every hit; His 2 could automatically enter a puddle when it contacts one after hold-casting, which would then initiate a channel, making him invulnerable like now, hold-casting his 2 while inside a puddle automatically moves him to the nearest puddle within a certain radius; and his hold-cast ult would then cost 100 energy to summon his pet, and would spawn additional tentacles from any existing puddles, automatically applying pilfering effect (when equipped) to any puddles that added tentacles spawn from. Then he would have a free skill slot. Not to mention how he would now be able to benefit from shooting his own puddles to spread damage to captured enemies, making him a CC frame that can deal pretty good damage.

 And these are just random ideas I just came up with right now without much thought. An updated Undertow could be crazy good and this ability has a lot of potential both for usefulness but also a lot of fun.

 Oh, and his pet should definitely stop flailing enemies around. The tentacles could entangle affected enemies and provide some form of debuff, like a slow, though personally I'd like something a little more creative, like a decrease to affected enemies' damage dealt and the ability to disable enemy skills. Utility debuffs and CC could make him a pretty nice frame to have around, and would probably make him pretty fun to play.

According to the recent Devstream, Undertow is going to be removed.

I have thought thoroughly about it and for the sake of the gameplay and their targeted concept of Warframes, it seems to be the most plausible choice now. Undertow was slowing Hydroid down. Of course it was unique and provided invulnerability, but that was not enough at the end. For what it did, other Warframes were capable of surpassing nor meet its intended purpose in both combat and as a defensive tool.

Now as for its replacement and the new plans Hydroid has going for it: I am reserved on the decision. Corrosive-focused. Not entirely what I expected, but I understood that the majority favor the augment. I can consider the new changes as a compromise to the community, but will need to actually see the rework deployed to say any further.