Open post to the devs of Warframe

[Rosa_KillRatio]

I am new to Warframe.  I am not new to gaming since I am online since 2003.  I have seen game come and go.  One thing I discovered is the effects of "nerfs" on a game.  I even came with a rule when it come to "nerfs".  You can give to players but rarely can you take back. If new content  is introduced in a game it is a given and should never be diluted.  To this effect you need a good test server to carefuly monitor new game content and avoid this new content to be the subject of a future "nerf".  Nerf should not even be a word admitted in the gaming community.  You can give to players but rarely can you take back.

[Jiminez_Burial]

10 minutes ago, Rosa_KillRatio said:

I am new to Warframe.  I am not new to gaming since I am online since 2003.  I have seen game come and go.  One thing I discovered is the effects of "nerfs" on a game.  I even came with a rule when it come to "nerfs".  You can give to players but rarely can you take back. If new content  is introduced in a game it is a given and should never be diluted.  To this effect you need a good test server to carefuly monitor new game content and avoid this new content to be the subject of a future "nerf".  Nerf should not even be a word admitted in the gaming community.  You can give to players but rarely can you take back.

Counter argument to that... people could understand that the game is always changing and balance patches are a part of any game as big as Warframe.

[Loza03]

Yes, you can, and it's a very common practice. People might not like it, but Nerfs are a necessary and health part of game balance, which is a vital part of game design. To use the common metaphor of the classic scales, in order to balance the scales, both sides must be of equal weight, if not equal composition. That can be achieved by adding or removing weight. However, if you keep adding, and adding weight to both sides without ever removing weights in order to balance the scales, then eventually the arms of the scale will be unable to bear the weight, and they will snap.

It's the same for game development. If you take every bit of gear that's above the power curve and treat it as the new power standard, than not only does previous gear become outdate far more rapidly, but so do previous enemies and enemy designs. Without nerfs, the only option is to simply buff everything else, or (what is more cost-effective) make new content designed for that. This leads to the incredibly rapid abandonment of old content, a term called 'Accretion'. Whilst some games do use this business model, it's a very risky one that can put substantial pressures on the development team.

[YUNoJump]

Show me a single game, ever, that has done balancing without nerfing stuff. The only games I have ever seen which don't nerf things occasionally are games that don't make any changes at all post-launch, ie no games released in the past 5 years at least.

Adding a test server doesn't create the imaginary balance utopia you're thinking of, even if test servers did actually mean that everything is perfectly balanced at launch. People just complain that stuff was nerfed between the test server and mainline. For example, "this gun was so much better in the test server why'd they have to nerf it for launch". There's still nerfing and there will still be people complaining.

[Mr.Fluffins]

2 hours ago, Rosa_KillRatio said:

I am not new to gaming since I am online since 2003.  <...> One thing I discovered is the effects of "nerfs" on a game. 

Just omegalol. If you played online (sometimes even offline) games somewhat seriously, you would know that nerfs happen all the time, and Warframe is not nearly the worst offender. Usually people complain about nerfs in Warframe when they overinvest in an already powerful weapon (say by buying rivens for Kuva Nukor even though it's not needed for any content in this game at all) and then their new meta toy becomes just powerful instead of omega super powerful.

You know how nerfs go in online games that are not as soft? Class balance can make your entire character with all his endgame gear that you farmed hundreds of hours for become complete trash that you can't even resell for a good price anymore in a single update (this particular example comes for Path of Exile).

Point is, nerfs happen all the time, mainly because it is easier to release a more powerful weapon and collect feedback and data on it (because a lot of people will use it) rather than to release a weaker weapon to tune later, since fewer people are going to use it.

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, Rosa_KillRatio said:

Nerf should not even be a word admitted in the gaming community. 

Ideologies such as this should not be admitted in the gaming community.

[TheGodofWiFi]

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Nerfs are a necessary and health part of game balance, which is a vital part of game design.

While this is true to some extent, not every nerf is necessary and somtimes in DE's case it is done completely on an arbitrary whim. Cases in point of nerfs in Warframe that were done purely for the sake of it;

1. The Cloud Walker Speed nerf.
2. The Universal Vacuum distance nerf.

Just two completely unecessary nerfs I can think of off the top of my head at the moment.

Nerfs are needed within the gaming industry it is true, but there are times when provably unecessary nerfs are introduced for things that really were not negatively affecting anything about a game, and ironically end up negatively impacting the game with their removal. So frustration with nerfs is understandable.

Another example of how nerfing a good thing can negatively impact a game comes from Anthem. As well all know, that game is awful. The loot was horrid and samey and did not drop frequently. But there was a brief loot glitch which made rare items drop more frequently in lower difficulty stronghold missions, whereas normally you would have had to grind for hours upon hours on the highest difficulty just to get one rare item. This actually made people happy and for a brief time it seemed a small spark of life had appeared. But then Bioware "fixed" (nerfed) the bug and people once again had to slog through a massive grind for very little reward. This caused even more people to abandon Anthem, consequently pushing the game down even further into the grave.

Nerfs are part of game developement, but they are not always necessary and good for the game.

Edited February 19, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi

[AzureTerra]

Nerfs and Buffs are part of gaming in a evolving game. They do need a test server to cut down the broken content that happens when Devbuild meets live with no intermediary what if testing. Dev's are not that great at find out what breaks in a game, that's what players excel at but conversely its not a thing that should happen in a live game environment where it affects greater proportions of the player base. Have a test server and have a quantified player testing pool or even a general player testing pool to find the major issues before it gets out and has to be repeatedly hotfixed inconveniencing the whole player base. Other F2P games manage to do it.

Edited February 19, 2020 by AzureTerra

[Paradoxity]

4 hours ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

You know how nerfs go in online games that are not as soft? Class balance can make your entire character with all his endgame gear that you farmed hundreds of hours for become complete trash that you can't even resell for a good price anymore in a single update (this particular example comes for Path of Exile).

RIP my whispering ice barbarian. Funnest build I ever had, completely ruined. 

Haven't touched PoE since then. 

[Fallen77]

Lol, I'm sorry but just lol.

Screw any idea of making a balanced and enjoyable game experience, I don't wanna ever see my toys change in any way, that's what matters.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

8 hours ago, Rosa_KillRatio said:

You can give to players but rarely can you take back.

come on, tell us: which of your favourite toys did DE break and cause you to make this post?

nerfs are a necessary evil, as is RNG. the art to nerfing properly is knowing when it's needed, and how best to go about it. Catchmoon is a good example: DE knew it was perhaps the most used secondary in the game, so it was needed, and rather than reducing the ludicrous damage, they gave it more damage falloff, so players have to get a little closer for that damage. some might argue it needed more, but I felt this was done right, and respected the investment of those who had made, gilded and forma'd their Catchmoons.

[Voltage]

Nerfs are required for the health of the game, but many times they are the result of repeated mistakes and the failure to understand powerful mechanics. I wouldn't mind nerfs for game balance if there was a deep understanding of why something was nerfed and why it was overpowered. I'm tired of seeing Area of Effect in Warframe nerfed as time goes on, because at this point DE should know right off the bat when an AoE is too powerful for its radius.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Voltage

[Serafim_94]

9 часов назад, Rosa_KillRatio сказал:

I am a literal nobody armchair developer.

FTFY.

[Loza03]

5 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

While this is true to some extent, not every nerf is necessary and somtimes in DE's case it is done completely on an arbitrary whim. Cases in point of nerfs in Warframe that were done purely for the sake of it;

1. The Cloud Walker Speed nerf.
2. The Universal Vacuum distance nerf.

I'm aware of the Cloud Walker Nerf, but the Universal Vacuum distance nerf? Which one was that?

5 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Another example of how nerfing a good thing can negatively impact a game comes from Anthem. As well all know, that game is awful. The loot was horrid and samey and did not drop frequently. But there was a brief loot glitch which made rare items drop more frequently in lower difficulty stronghold missions, whereas normally you would have had to grind for hours upon hours on the highest difficulty just to get one rare item. This actually made people happy and for a brief time it seemed a small spark of life had appeared. But then Bioware "fixed" (nerfed) the bug and people once again had to slog through a massive grind for very little reward. This caused even more people to abandon Anthem, consequently pushing the game down even further into the grave.

Let's call a spade a spade - A nerf is a change to an intentional behaviour, a fix is one to an unintentional one.

Bioware/EA never intended people to get that much loot and/or have fun with their game... 

5 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Nerfs are part of game developement, but they are not always necessary and good for the game.

True, but OP is crusading against all nerfs.

[Firetempest]

Seven years of various nerfs:

Yeah. Game is doomed.

[Volinus7]

You couldn't take back your time wasted on Warframe either. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[TheGodofWiFi]

18 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I'm aware of the Cloud Walker Nerf, but the Universal Vacuum distance nerf? Which one was that?

Back in the day, the vacuum power was exclusive to only one Sentinel; Carrier. In a game like Warframe having the power to collect resources from a distance is valued much higher than anything else and so Carrier was naturally the only sentinel that was ever really used. Universal Vacuum was understandably requested by people who wanted to have more choice with their companions.

When Vacuum was finally made into a universal utility mod for all Sentinels, DE initially nerfed its range by half for no real reason. It was completely unecessary and people quickly started calling DE out on it. It was then reversed

18 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Let's call a spade a spade - A nerf is a change to an intentional behaviour, a fix is one to an unintentional one.

DE and other developers like to call their nerfs "fixes", so I've just gotten into a habit of calling fixes to good things, nerfs.

18 hours ago, Loza03 said:

True, but OP is crusading against all nerfs.

And the OP is entirely in the wrong on that one, I agree.

I can just understand why he and other people might be so embittered with nerfs in games like Warframe because you never really know when the rug will be pulled out from underneath you. Like others have mentioned; it can be very annoying when the set-up you've invested time and possibly money in for a good while is suddenly made redundant.

Edited February 20, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi