I don't like the sentients (Edited)

[(PSN)grayscale358]

1 hour ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

"Self-hate" is a weird way to put it. I see it precisely oppositely - I don't identify with that kid at all; that's not the main character. Whatever warframe I am at the time is the "main character," the kid is some add-on ability, or like, an NPC I have to deal with.

When the stalker stabbed my frame in TSD, I wasn't like, "Oh no I'm gonna die without my frame!" I was like, "That f**kin' kid got my Rhino stabbed." 

Thats the thing though, that kid, is the main character. THat's where the narrative has been pushing since TSD. As I pointed out before, every frame but umbra is a suit of armor. There is no character there. The character you ascribe to the frames, is the character of the operator.

[Ham_Grenabe]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Thats the thing though, that kid, is the main character. THat's where the narrative has been pushing since TSD. As I pointed out before, every frame but umbra is a suit of armor. There is no character there. The character you ascribe to the frames, is the character of the operator.

You're not wrong, and I'm not refusing to accept that there is an Operator who is supposed to be "me," but it just doesn't click. 

To me, the operator is basically like a companion (follows me around, adds utility, has some fashion-frame potential). I turn off Operator chat, I don't spend time hanging around as an operator, I'm not interested in the backstory of the Tenno. They're just...tools. If DE were to retcon them out of the story, I would not bat an eye. I can't explain it any better than that. 

Anyway, this has gone way off-track for the topic. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Ham_Grenabe

[(PSN)grayscale358]

10 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I don't mind them being the major antagonist, I mind them being, say it with me, a major pain in the a** to fight.

They're only a pain, because you refuse to adapt to the actual fight. What you're saying is like saying Vay Heks annoying because occasionally I can't shoot him. He's designed so you can't do that sometimes.

10 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

You say that, and yet the "other way around" continues to exist regardless. I don't give a rat's a** about DE's lore that's been retconned a dozen times already, they can retcon it one more time to something that's actually conducive to good gameplay. Or just ignore it like they've also done numerous times in the past.

Again, there is another way around. You just refuse to use it. I have provided you with options, but again and again you ignore them,

10 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

No, try reading what I actually wrote: If there's anything that would 100% make me drop warframe, it would be having to go to the arsenal to reshuffle the mods on all my gear before every mission. If the rumored damage rework equalizes the factions and forces us to actually keep swapping elemental combos all the time, this game is dead.

Not a word in there about "making other factions an actual threat". It's all about the annoyance of having to reshuffle mods all the time. If you want to have a serious discussion, you need to learn to respond to what people are actually saying, not a caricature of it that you find easy to refute.

If you can oneshot every corpus, they aren't going to be a threat.Currently, the only threat in a majority of the content, is Grineer. Because their armor scaling is completely stupid - 99.9999% damage reduction is stupid to have on enemies that can easily oneshot any warframe. Again, you don't need to move mods. There are 3 mod configs. All are accessible in the mod screen. Just set one up with gas, and suddenly, there's a corpus killer. Oh wow~ So much effort to press a few buttons, and think before you mindlessly leap into a mission.

10 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Of course I'm lazy. If I wasn't lazy, I wouldn't be playing a videogame at all, I'd be doing something productive instead. The issue isn't building weapons, the issue is having to go back and manually swap those builds that I made years ago back and forth every five minutes. That would be annoying, and again, entertainment products are not supposed to elicit annoyance.

Again, its as if... you have to think about what enemy faction you're fighting before you can go kill them. 

10 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I have everything there is to have, that's why I can confidently say Operators are garbage. What you wrote may have been the original intention the devs had, in reality you run Zenurik 99% of the time except for frames that don't need energy regen (mostly Inaros, technically Hildryn but there's no reason to ever play her).

Your operator can provide infinite energy, infinite healing, armor stripping, heal objectives, disarm enemies, open enemies to finishers, innately provides a stealth option and a traversal option. All without using energy. How are they garbage? Not to mention the fact that amps provide a relatively decent combat option if properly built.

10 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Right, I don't like operators because they interfere with the gameplay, and your solution is to offer me other options that interfere with the gameplay even more? Genius. That's some big brain logic right there.

Operators. Do. Not. Interfere. With. Gameplay. The other options do. How hard is it to use transferece, blast a fool, and then use transference again so you can continue your brainless shooting and slashing. You don't want to use operators, I've provided alternatives. You don't want to use the alternatives? Use the damn Operator. It isn't hard, nor is it annoying, to use a feature that was implemented specifically to fight these enemies. Imagine if it was a gear item instead, open your gearwheel... find the item... then use it.

10 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Yeah, because I can't be a**ed anymore. I've played this game for too long to find elemental combo swapping to be entertaining, it's become nothing more than an annoying chore. I want to shoot dudes in the face, not grind the modding menu.

One button on the modding screen. And you can still shoot dudes in the face, you might just need to, I dunno, press a button in the modding screen before you start. Or, even worse, have a harder time fighting the Corpus or Infested.

[SordidDreams]

12 hours ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

They're only a pain, because you refuse to adapt to the actual fight.

No, they're a pain because they're designed to be a pain. The intended way of fighting them is itself a pain.

12 hours ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

What you're saying is like saying Vay Heks annoying because occasionally I can't shoot him. He's designed so you can't do that sometimes.

Yeah, that's 100% true. He's designed to be annoying too. The overuse of invincibility phases in boss design used to be one of the community's major complaints. And the reason you don't hear about it anymore is not that it's been fixed, it still exists, it's just that DE's been piling on much more severe screw-ups lately that have taken priority in that regard.

12 hours ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Oh wow~ So much effort to press a few buttons, and think before you mindlessly leap into a mission.

Compared to the current system where you don't need to press any buttons at all, yeah, that does make the game significantly worse.

12 hours ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Again, its as if... you have to think about what enemy faction you're fighting before you can go kill them. 

Again, no, it's not about thinking. I've done the thinking years ago and there's no more thinking to be done. It's just mindless busywork, i.e. precisely the thing people play videogames to escape from. If you think that's something that should be put into games, never become a game designer.

12 hours ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Your operator can provide infinite energy, infinite healing, armor stripping, heal objectives, disarm enemies, open enemies to finishers, innately provides a stealth option and a traversal option. All without using energy. How are they garbage?

Let's see:

Infinite energy: Is nice, but you have to go into operator every 30 seconds to maintain it, which is a constant annoyance and much worse than the constant regen Zenurik used to provide. Yet another example of requiring more button presses for no reason.

Infinite healing: Makes all support frames even more irrelevant than they were already, so not a good thing.

Armor stripping: If only the few enemies worth armor stripping weren't arbitrarily immune to it.

Heal objectives: Makes all defensive frames irrelevant, so not a good thing.

Disarm enemies: Pointless. Even Loki's wide-range disarm is not worth using, the operator's much more limited ability is a joke.

Open enemies to finishers: Pointless.

Innate stealth: Pointless.

Innate traversal: Completely removes any kind of challenge from parkour, so not a good thing. Those wonderful large rooms with very few platforms on the new Jupiter tileset are completely trivial when you can just zoom across the chasm in less than two seconds.

Now let's see about the downsides: No durability, die when so much as sneezed at. No damage output to speak of. Crappy and inconsistent controls (e.g. zenurik bubble sometimes fails to appear for no reason). Cause your sentinel to become targeted by enemies and killed if you stay in operator for more than a second or two, thereby continuing to interfere with warframe gameplay even after you return to it.

In conclusion: The only reason to use them is because the game outright requires it and for the energy regen that should just exist by default and be permanent. If it were up to me, they'd be permanently removed from the game at the earliest opportunity (via a story quest where they are mortally wounded and are forced to permanently transfer into their warframe, for which there is already precedent in the lore).

12 hours ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Not to mention the fact that amps provide a relatively decent combat option if properly built.

Again, lol, no. Amps are only useful against extremely low-level enemies or enemies that arbitrarily require them (i.e. sentients, Profit Taker).

12 hours ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Operators. Do. Not. Interfere. With. Gameplay.

Yes. They. Do. I play Warframe to be a warframe, not a squishy little kid with a nerf gun.

Edited February 22, 2020 by SordidDreams

[ILOHARTA]

hitbox? *laughs in Klamora Prism*

[JackHargreav]

Something that's been bugging me for a while, is how unnatural the operator feel to me. 

It would be much better if -as some one already said it- the operator powers wouldn't require to use the operator it self.

I get that they make fighting sentients easy but still It always goes like this: Shoot the Sentient, press 5, then use dash, then press 5 again, repeat.

Depending on enemy numbers and your weapons this can be tedious. With an aoe weapon and a group of sentients this isn't that big of a deal but with weapons like snipers or assault rifles I don't even bother.

It just breaks that natural flow the game has. 

[(PSN)grayscale358]

On 2020-02-22 at 11:18 AM, SordidDreams said:

No, they're a pain because they're designed to be a pain. The intended way of fighting them is itself a pain.

No. You refuse to change anything.  Corrosive. Cannot. Kill. Everything. Nor should it.

Quote

Yeah, that's 100% true. He's designed to be annoying too. The overuse of invincibility phases in boss design used to be one of the community's major complaints. And the reason you don't hear about it anymore is not that it's been fixed, it still exists, it's just that DE's been piling on much more severe screw-ups lately that have taken priority in that ragard.

Invincibility phases only exist so people can't steamroll everything. Have you seen what happens to the Sergeant or Phorid?

On 2020-02-22 at 11:18 AM, SordidDreams said:

I play Warframe to be a warframe, not a squishy little kid with a nerf gun.

And unfortunately, after TSD, all your formerly human, now brainless suits of armor are controlled by "a squishy little kid with a nerf gun". 

 

And adding on something I just realized, your armor stripping comment really shows you haven't fought anything above level 200, where corrosive or armor strip become mandatory, because an enemy shouldn't have a 99.999% damage resistance coming into a fight. 

[HugintheCrow]

1 hour ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

anything above level 200, where corrosive or armor strip become mandatory, because an enemy shouldn't have a 99.999% damage resistance coming into a fight. 

Enemies over level 100 essentially don't exist, so this point is kinda null.

[SordidDreams]

 

On 2020-02-22 at 2:41 PM, (PS4)reidy35 said:

unfortunately, after TSD, all your formerly human, now brainless suits of armor are controlled by "a squishy little kid with a nerf gun". 

Finally something I can agree with. That is indeed unfortunate. I have presented my solution to that already.

On 2020-02-22 at 2:41 PM, (PS4)reidy35 said:

And adding on something I just realized, your armor stripping comment really shows you haven't fought anything above level 200, where corrosive or armor strip become mandatory, because an enemy shouldn't have a 99.999% damage resistance coming into a fight. 

Yeah, it's been quite a few years since I last played an endless mission for that long. DE have been very thorough in removing any and all reasons to ever do that. I daresay if you do regularly face level 200 enemies, you're playing the game wrong.

[SpringRocker]

22 hours ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Have you seen what happens to the Sergeant or Phorid?

Yeah, it's kind of sad (both funny/sad and sad/sad) that you can kill Phorid in mid-cutscene with a hard hitting projectile weapon.

Anyway:

 

On 2020-02-22 at 3:18 AM, SordidDreams said:

 

On 2020-02-21 at 6:54 PM, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Oh wow~ So much effort to press a few buttons, and think before you mindlessly leap into a mission.

Compared to the current system where you don't need to press any buttons at all, yeah, that does make the game significantly worse

If you want to have the game play itself for you and you consider actually playing the game is bad, then go watch Twitch instead.

If you really think pressing buttons is bad game design then seriously, go watch someone else play (just about the same thing, right?).

[(PSN)grayscale358]

 

Quote

Finally something I can agree with. That is indeed unfortunate. I have presented my solution to that already.

If you have, I don't recall. Was it something along the lines of make the best cinematic quest in the game non-canon?

Quote

Yeah, it's been quite a few years since I last played an endless mission for that long. DE have been very thorough in removing any and all reasons to ever do that. I daresay if you do regularly face level 200 enemies, you're playing the game wrong.

I'm sorry I enjoy endurance runs. I'm allowed to do that, right? Or is that wrong? I'm allowed to do things for my own enjoyment? Right?
Honestly, this was pointing out how horrid armor scaling is. If this can occur, there's something wrong. Just from a design standpoint, enemies should not be gaining that much damage reduction, as it makes killing them, without building for it, nigh on impossible.

[SordidDreams]

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

If you have, I don't recall.

Tough. Go back and look for it if you care, and learn to pay attention in the future.

4 hours ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

I'm sorry I enjoy endurance runs. I'm allowed to do that, right? Or is that wrong? I'm allowed to do things for my own enjoyment? Right?

Sure, but you're in a tiny minority and you'd probably be better off playing a game designed to cater to this preference of yours, which WF blatantly is not.

4 hours ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Honestly, this was pointing out how horrid armor scaling is. If this can occur, there's something wrong. Just from a design standpoint, enemies should not be gaining that much damage reduction, as it makes killing them, without building for it, nigh on impossible.

Hang on, let me get it straight. You want a damage rework that will make it necessary to build weapons specifically against each faction in order to be able to kill them effectively? And yet at the same time you consider the one faction that already does require weapons to be built specifically against it to be badly designed? And you see no issue with this?

[(PSN)grayscale358]

4 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Lol, no. Nobody enjoys mindless busywork.

Except some people do enjoy fighting the Sentients?

Quote

Tough. Go back and look for it if you care, and learn to pay attention in the future.

No need to rude and insulting. You told me off for that earlier

Quote

Sure, but you're in a tiny minority and you'd probably be better off playing a game desinged to cater to your preferences, which WF blatantly is not.

Or, I enjoy other aspects of Warframes gameplay as well?

Quote

Hang on, let me get it straight. You want a damage rework that will make it necessary to build weapons against each faction in order to be able to kill them effectively? And yet at the same time you consider the one faction that actually does require weapons to be built specifically against it to be badly designed? And you see no issue with this?

The Grineer are badly designed, because they are the only faction that is designed this way. If the Corpus were at least able to survive a single bullet from anything, then they might be a reasonable threat. Because of how unbalanced armor scaling is, player power has had to rise as enemy level has risen. This has led to the insane power creep we currently have. Tink about it, when Warframe first started, enemies were probably maxed at level 30 or so (Anyone who was there, feel free to correct me on the exact number). Over the years, the starchart difficulty has increased in later areas, see Railjack for example. This has called for a player power increase. Bringing the corpus into line with the grineer, or closer to them, will create a difficulty equilibrium, where each enemy faction is around the same difficulty to kill, whether it be due to EHP, numbers and damage, or unique abilities.

Also, think about the only damage types that get used. Radiation (For Eidolons/Orbs), Corrosive, Viral, and Slash. By making the Corpus harder to kill, the value of Blast (extra damage against robots), Gas, Toxin, Slash (Not gonna be fixed until IPS is fixed probably), and maybe/possibly Magnetic all increase. This makes builds more varied, and not centralized on Corrosive or Viral and Hunter Munitions. Both are still going to be effective, the latter especially so, but Corrisive will not be the only type needed.

[SordidDreams]

1 minute ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Except some people do enjoy fighting the Sentients?

We're talking about reshuffling mods after every mission. I told you already, pay attention.

1 minute ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

No need to rude and insulting. You told me off for that earlier

Yeah, and you made it clear you think it's okay. At least when you do it, when you're on the receiving end, suddenly you complain. Since you also think it's okay to point out behaviors people display, have another taste of your own medicine: You're hypocritical.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Or, I enjoy other aspects of Warframes gameplay as well?

Well then you have a choice to make.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

The Grineer are badly designed, because they are the only faction that is designed this way.

So if their bad design is applied everywhere, it magically becomes good design? I can't say I follow your logic.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Bringing the corpus into line with the grineer, or closer to them, will create a difficulty equilibrium, where each enemy faction is around the same difficulty to kill, whether it be due to EHP, numbers and damage, or unique abilities.

That is already the case when you just leave your guns modded against grineer; the other factions' lower EHP and your 'wrong' elemental combo cancel out (more or less). What you're proposing won't change the way the game plays, it will only increase the amount of time spent in the arsenal (i.e. not actually playing the game).

7 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Also, think about the only damage types that get used. Radiation (For Eidolons/Orbs), Corrosive, Viral, and Slash. By making the Corpus harder to kill, the value of Blast (extra damage against robots), Gas, Toxin, Slash (Not gonna be fixed until IPS is fixed probably), and maybe/possibly Magnetic all increase. This makes builds more varied, and not centralized on Corrosive or Viral and Hunter Munitions. Both are still going to be effective, the latter especially so, but Corrisive will not be the only type needed.

Allow me to let you in on a little secret: Some things in games exist solely to be passed over in favor of better options. That's true for weapons especially in WF, but also for elemental damage types. That's not bad design, on the contrary. A game is a series of interesting choices, and for a choice to be interesting and meaningful, there has to be a right and wrong answer to it.

[Corvid]

10 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

A game is a series of interesting choices, and for a choice to be interesting and meaningful, there has to be a right and wrong answer to it.

Gonna disagree with you there. A meaningful choice is one where both answers are correct, but have different consequences. If you're playing a game with a shotgun, and come across the opportunity to trade it for a sniper rifle, you aren't making a wrong decision by sticking with either. You'll be strong at close range and weak at distance with the former, and vice versa with the latter, and your playstyle will have to change to account for your loadout's weaknesses in either case, but you won't have made a "wrong decision".

A choice that has a predetermined right and wrong answer isn't a choice at all.

[(PSN)grayscale358]

4 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

We're talking about reshuffling mods after every mission. I told you already, pay attention.

I'm sorry if I can't wholly pay attention to the Warframe Forums. I have things to do, and it's like... 2am, so my focus is off due to being tired. 
But again, you only have to reshuffle the mods ONCE. Hek, you can have a Corpus loadout set up so you can quick swap to that.

7 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Well then you have a choice to make.

Do I? I can't do endurance runs and play other parts of the game? I can't point out issues that the community has been vocal about before?

8 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Well then you have a choice to make.

You're missing the point. Pay attention.

One enemy faction being more powerful than all the others, should not happen. Each faction should be roughly equal. You also ignored the point that Corpus die too quickly to be a threat. The corpus should be just as threatening as the Grineer, although in a different way. However to be threatening, they need to be able to survive. Which due to their lower EHP, they cannot.

11 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

That is already the case when you just leave your guns modded against grineer; the other factions' lower EHP and your 'wrong' elemental combo cancel out (more or less).

No. That is simply not true.

The Corpus and infested both require the proposed changes in order to survive long enough to even maintain a threatening presence. The only thing that makes Infested hard to kill at times is the Ancient auras, however, that should not be all there is. Corpus have Nullifier bubbles, which mostly provide a minor wall between player and foe.

And the modding system is part of the game, spending time building frames/weapons is just as important to the game as the actual missions. It's a constant loop of progression until you reach a certain point, that being where I assume we're both at.

18 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Allow me to let you in on a little secret: Some things in games exist solely to be passed over in favor of better options. That's true for weapons especially in WF, but also for elemental damage types. That's not bad design, on the contrary. A game is a series of interesting choices, and for a choice to be interesting and meaningful, there has to be a right and wrong answer to it.

And yet there should not only be three viable options. This change would make more options viable in different situations, therefore providing more variety. Variety is what makes the game fun. Without variety, if the entire game was rather boring exterminate esque missions, players would be unhappy. We saw that firsthand with Railjack.

Sidenote: We're kinda hijacking this thread, and it's likely not a great idea.

[SordidDreams]

11 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Gonna disagree with you there. A meaningful choice is one where both answers are correct, but have different consequences. If you're playing a game with a shotgun, and come across the opportunity to trade it for a sniper rifle, you aren't making a wrong decision by sticking with either. You'll be strong at close range and weak at distance with the former, and vice versa with the latter, and your playstyle will have to change to account for your loadout's weaknesses in either case, but you won't have made a "wrong decision".

A choice that has a predetermined right and wrong answer isn't a choice at all.

You misunderstood. The idea isn't to have just one correct answer, there can be and often are multiple. Your example is a case of that. But there also have to be wrong answers, or at least answers that become objectively obsolete even very early on. I bet you in this hypothetical game of yours there also exists a crappy semi-auto pistol that you probably started with and that have no reason to ever use once you find a rifle or a shotgun. And there's a very good reason why it's like this in every shooter ever made.

That's still a choice you make. Yes, the answer is obvious and as a result you only make that choice once, but that's okay. It still serves its purpose of giving you that "aw yiss, upgrade" dopamine hit.

15 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

But again, you only have to reshuffle the mods ONCE. Hek, you can have a Corpus loadout set up so you can quick swap to that.

Well no, I can't, because all my loadout slots are already taken, and DE literally won't allow me to buy any more (nor would I really want to, the menu is huge enough as it is). And while swapping saved loadouts and/or configs is less annoying than manually reshuffling mods, it's still a step down from the current status quo of not having to do that at all.

You might think it's not a big deal, and in isolation that's true, but it would be yet another little nudge to the players to stop caring and go do something else instead that doesn't shove annoyances down their throat. DE has been nudging a lot lately, as I'm sure is obvious to anyone from looking at the player numbers, so I feel it's important that they great take care to avoid doing it any more.

18 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

One enemy faction being more powerful than all the others, should not happen. Each faction should be roughly equal.

Wrong. One enemy faction should be more powerful than the others. I spent several of my recent posts explaining why.

19 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

No. That is simply not true.

Yes, it is. See? I can make an assertion too.

20 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

the modding system is part of the game, spending time building frames/weapons is just as important to the game as the actual missions. It's a constant loop of progression until you reach a certain point, that being where I assume we're both at

That's my point exactly. We've reached the point where the modding system has nothing to offer anymore, so requiring us to engage with it further would be a waste of our time and bad game design.

It's great fun to play with weapon builds as you're progressing through the star chart and finding elemental mods you didn't have before, thereby unlocking new elemental combos to try against different enemies. But once you have everything and know what works well against what, there are no surprises left. Continuing to swap back and forth at that point requires zero mental effort and gives no satisfaction anymore, it just becomes mindless busywork.

21 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

And yet there should not only be three viable options. This change would make more options viable in different situations, therefore providing more variety. Variety is what makes the game fun. Without variety, if the entire game was rather boring exterminate esque missions, players would be unhappy. We saw that firsthand with Railjack.

I have my own ideas about why RJ was so poorly received, and while the mission structure was a contributing factor, I don't think it was the only one or even the most important.

I agree that variety is important, but like I said, what you want wouldn't bring any. Currently we can kill everything with just one build, you want us to have to swap builds to be able to kill different factions. So the game would still play the same as it does now, only we'd have to spend extra time in the arsenal to get to that point, whereas now we don't.

52 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Sidenote: We're kinda hijacking this thread, and it's likely not a great idea.

Eh, nobody seems to care, and damage types are a natural outgrowth of the sentient topic. Sentients are just one of DE's attempts to make damage types even more irrelevant than they are already. A similar one is the RJ damage procs, one of which stacks and multiplies damage dealt, allowing you to easily chew through enemy health even with sub-optimal damage combos.

[(PSN)grayscale358]

14 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Eh, nobody seems to care, and damage types are a natural outgrowth of the sentient topic..

It does seem like we're the only ones making it last.

14 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

We've reached the point where the modding system has nothing to offer anymore, so requiring us to engage with it further would be a waste of our time and bad game design.

Except they could make it give us more to offer by allowing more mod combinations to be effective. Branching out from one or two decent options to allow viability of alternate choices. This would eliminate the illusion of choice that you seem to be clinging to by saying that the elements shouldn't be all viable, and present actual choices.

 

14 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I bet you in this hypothetical game of yours there also exists a crappy semi-auto pistol that you probably started with and that have no reason to ever use once you find a rifle or a shotgun. And there's a very good reason why it's like this in every shooter ever made.

That's still a choice you make. Yes, the answer is obvious and as a result you only make that choice once, but that's okay. It still serves its purpose of giving you that "aw yiss, upgrade" dopamine hit.

The elements in Warframe are not simple upgrades though. A choice between a sniper and a shotgun cannot be compare to switching from the Doom starter pistol, to the machine gun. Because one presents a direct upgrade, while the other allows one playstyle to overtake another. 

The same can be said for elements in Warframe. Something like Corrosive allows for a reduction in enemy EHP, same with Viral. Electric provides limited CC, so does Heat. Cold allows for other effects to last longer. Radiation is a pocket Nyx. The only direct upgrade, is Toxin into Gas.

14 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Sentients are just one of DE's attempts to make damage types even more irrelevant than they are already.

Except Sentients encourage the use of different damage types. As I pointed out, a varied loadout is key to killing Sentients without void damage.

 

14 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I have my own ideas about why RJ was so poorly received, and while the mission structure was a contributing factor, I don't think it was the only one or even the most important.

The bugs really didn't help, Nor did the sheer difference there is between Railjack and the rest of the game.

14 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I agree that variety is important, but like I said, what you want wouldn't bring any. Currently we can kill everything with just one build, you want us to have to swap builds to be able to kill different factions.

What you're missing, is that there are mechanics that are completely ignored in favor of being combat effective. The proposed changes, would allow those mechanics to shine against other factions. You might see actual use of Magnetic, or Radiation, Gas... has had its uses, but it'll become a better option against... Everything. Grineer are weak to Gas too, so for starchart level missions, Gas would probably become the new meta. Just change one mod in all your weapons, ad you shouldn't have a problem.

I hadn't actually realized how much of a buff this would be to Gas damage... Due to its effectiveness against Corpus, and Grineer, and how frail the infested are, Gas would certainly be better than corrosive.

Edit: Sorry for messing the order up, I was doing what I could think of a reply to at the time

Edited February 24, 2020 by (PS4)reidy35
Clarity

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Except they could make it give us more to offer by allowing more mod combinations to be effective. Branching out from one or two decent options to allow viability of alternate choices. This would eliminate the illusion of choice that you seem to be clinging to by saying that the elements shouldn't be all viable, and present actual choices.

Eh, that would give us about a day of gun building and testing. Experienced players especially would very quickly discover whatever the new meta turned out to be, and we'd be right back to where we are now.

1 hour ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

The elements in Warframe are not simple upgrades though. A choice between a sniper and a shotgun cannot be compare to switching from the Doom starter pistol, to the machine gun. Because one presents a direct upgrade, while the other allows one playstyle to overtake another. 

The same can be said for elements in Warframe. Something like Corrosive allows for a reduction in enemy EHP, same with Viral. Electric provides limited CC, so does Heat. Cold allows for other effects to last longer. Radiation is a pocket Nyx. The only direct upgrade, is Toxin into Gas.

Yeah, but some of those effects are a lot less useful than others, so the comparison is completely valid and true. Going from electric to corrosive is 100% a straight upgrade, for instance, because the electric effect is basically worthless.

1 hour ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Except Sentients encourage the use of different damage types. As I pointed out, a varied loadout is key to killing Sentients without void damage.

Well that's exactly why you use void damage. The thing about them is that even if you use damage types they are vulnerable to (mostly corrosive for their ferrite armor), they just adapt to them and cease being vulnerable. They go directly against your whole idea of different factions being vulnerable to different things.

1 hour ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

The bugs really didn't help, Nor did the sheer difference there is between Railjack and the rest of the game.

And also the ridiculous lack of balance. And the fact that playing with the big new shiny required a team. And the fact that they nerfed the only viable solo playstyle (archwings) into the ground.

1 hour ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

What you're missing, is that there are mechanics that are completely ignored in favor of being combat effective. The proposed changes, would allow those mechanics to shine against other factions. You might see actual use of Magnetic, or Radiation, Gas... has had its uses, but it'll become a better option against... Everything. Grineer are weak to Gas too, so for starchart level missions, Gas would probably become the new meta. Just change one mod in all your weapons, ad you shouldn't have a problem.

I hadn't actually realized how much of a buff this would be to Gas damage... Due to its effectiveness against Corpus, and Grineer, and how frail the infested are, Gas would certainly be better than corrosive.

I'm not sure what mechanics and proposed changes you're talking about, but you seem to be missing the fact that whatever changes are made, it's not going to lead to actual variety as you imagine it, it's just going to replace one meta with another. And if the new meta better requires constant build-swapping, it's going to significantly hurt the game.

Edited February 24, 2020 by SordidDreams

[bad4youLT]

Lvl 40 Paracesis moded with sacrificial mods will make short work out of any sentient .

You just need to take something that can survive lvl 90-ish enemys.

[(PSN)grayscale358]

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

Well that's exactly why you use void damage. The thing about them is that even if you use damage types they are vulnerable to (mostly corrosive for their ferrite armor), they just adapt to them and cease being vulnerable. They go directly against your whole idea of different factions being vulnerable to different things.

 

You missed the point in what I said. Pay attention. "A varied loadout is the key to defeating sentients without using void damage". Key word there being varied. If you have different elements on your primary, secondary and melee, they won't be able to adapt to all of them.

 

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

I'm not sure what mechanics and proposed changes you're talking about, but you seem to be missing the fact that whatever changes are made, it's not going to lead to actual variety as you imagine it, it's just going to replace one meta with another. And if the new meta better requires constant build-swapping, it's going to significantly hurt the game.

Last devstream it was mentioned that there are changes coming to armor shields, and... infested pathing. Shield changes seem to be that they're bulkier, and have a constant recharge. Armor, scaling is being toned down, and infested... will be faster, and hit harder. Going off memory.

Mechanic wise I meant the procs of elements and such. Because there are a lot of under used options.

 

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

Yeah, but some of those effects are a lot less useful than others, so the comparison is completely valid and true. Going from electric to corrosive is 100% a straight upgrade, for instance, because the electric effect is basically worthless.

Consider the comparison of say... radiations effect to corrosive. That is a trade off. SIngle elements are always going to be less worthwhile than combined, because combined requires two mod slots to reach. Some singles however, do have potential, which currently is squandered by corrosive being an infinite debuff, and by far the most powerful due to how out of control enemy armor is.

[ssxtriki]

Wait Veil Proxima sentients in the Anomoly are lvl 90? didn't even realized lol, paracesis just chops them away

[JackHargreav]

4 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

Lvl 40 Paracesis moded with sacrificial mods will make short work out of any sentient .

You just need to take something that can survive lvl 90-ish enemys.

With Valkyr absolutely but anything else is just not as good. 

[JackHargreav]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Key word there being varied. If you have different elements on your primary, secondary and melee, they won't be able to adapt to all of them.

My only problem here is that the sentients still have resistance against certain damage types. Viral for example does almost no damage.

Corrosive on the other hand is really effective.

I don't know if It's just an oversight but that's the main reason I don't build my weapons with various damage types.

[(PSN)grayscale358]

2 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

My only problem here is that the sentients still have resistance against certain damage types. Viral for example does almost no damage.

Corrosive on the other hand is really effective.

I don't know if It's just an oversight but that's the main reason I don't build my weapons with various damage types.

That's due to the armor type. Which Sentients should have a different variant of. Not just the same as Grineer. They shouldn't have weaknesses and resistances like normal enemies due to their adaptive mechanic, just like, everything does normal damage until they know what it is

Except void. That should remain hyper effective

Edited February 24, 2020 by (PS4)reidy35