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Making Liches Fun


VenomousValentine
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The lich system. It's bad. You know it, I know it, DE knows it. It was their worst received update of ALL TIME. They said so themselves.
So how can we fix it. The answer is actually relatively easy.

Remove thrall/murmer farming. Still have liches contest territory that spreads, make it a chance a thrall can spawn in ANY mission of said territory, regardless of if it's a kuva flood, sortie, arbitration, relic mission, etc. A small chance. Maybe one per mission in this territory. 

Make thralls like small minibosses. Not something you oneshot then stab in the head.

Make it so we need WAY less murmers. I'm talking like 20 per requiem reveal instead of 50.

Buff liches. No, I don't mean add more stats. No I don't mean make them oneshot you, or take mountains of bullets to put a dent in. I mean add more mechanics required to kill them. Make them a PROPER boss fight. RNG weak points, fight phases where they are weak to either your primary, secondary, or melee at random intervals. Different phase of the fight encourage different behavior. When they're on their last phase they should have mobility on par with a warframe. I want them to be flying crackheads that really test your skill.

Make the lich able to spawn in ANY MISSION on it's territory at ANY TIME. I don't care if you're 90 minutes into an excavation, he's coming to ruin your day. He's about to end your whole career.

Don't let us be able to kill our lich when they come to hunt us. Don't make us use our requiems in the fight when they come to us.

Give a lich a lair that is based on their personality, a tile specifically for them. Currently there's only 2.

Once you have all murmers (Don't make us guess which order we need, that's stupid, just tell us what we need where once we've done the work) let us go to our liches lair. The hunter becomes the hunted. Make us do a mission similar to a spy to open sections of the lair, once the pseudo spy mission is over, the lights flash and then dim. You hear a cackling echo through the corridors. 

Your liches face appears on your comms. He wants you to know you have made a grievous mistake. He will ensure you regret it.

The ceiling opens, it reveals a kuva throne out of your reach. The lich jumps down, and a small cutscene happens similar to other bosses.

Are you alone? Good luck. Absolutely you have made a mistake. Maybe your last.

Make this a bossfight of epic proportions. Lazers on the walls that shred through you if you don't dodge them amidst the fight. Turrets with dodgeable bombs it lobs at you. Your lich is teleporting around like a madman taunting you. As you wittle down it's health it becomes more aggressive. It's taunting nature turns into aggravation, and then rage. It's in a blind fury, screaming at you incoherently clinging on to it's last shred of life. After all, a caged animal is the most deadly. Fear is the most simple motivator any living thing has. Fear is the mind killer.

And your lich is now afraid. Very afraid. And that's bad for you. More turrets, more bombs, the floor flooding with caustic blood. The lights blow out for a second with each scream of this pitiful monster you've created. Did you remember where he was when the lights went out for a second? Where is he now? You're afraid too.

And then it happens. He's winded. You've cracked his armor. He's been shot in the gut, pooling entrails, and bleeding his own ineptitude. He knows he's been beaten. He's kneeling on the floor, out of breath... Begging for mercy...

Do you give it to him?

Edited by VenomousValentine
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The basic concept of actively creating an arch-nemesis still doesn't work for me. It's more honest now that they come with an advert for the gun you'll get attached, but it's just a dumb concept that we create them at all. Making thralls minibosses and letting liches invade you are important changes, but I'd also need to change the creation system so that we're taking on an assassination contract on an existing warlord, possibly from Steel Meridian. Just give us a list of possibilities to pick up like bounties.

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4 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

The basic concept of actively creating an arch-nemesis still doesn't work for me. It's more honest now that they come with an advert for the gun you'll get attached, but it's just a dumb concept that we create them at all. Making thralls minibosses and letting liches invade you are important changes, but I'd also need to change the creation system so that we're taking on an assassination contract on an existing warlord, possibly from Steel Meridian. Just give us a list of possibilities to pick up like bounties.

I kind of agree. It needs to be more impactful. The whole lich system feels so rushed.

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.....still dont  have hema and ofc, founder  pack stuff and any  kuva weapons yet.

to  me,  kuva  lich is  by far  the worst  upadate,

1% real contensts..the fight against  kuva lich.  99%  pure grinds with 5 forma and lvl 40  mechanic.

it's  just  ultimate grind  package,  but sadly looks DE will add  more  kuva weapons

 

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Even though I wasn't playing when lich system came out I saw a video sneak peek of it and I got such a wrong impression of it.

I thought a lich would be hiding in a location and you had to find that location. Then you confronted them in their secret base but would only be able to beat them if you knew their weakness which you had to learn from finding clues scattered across the planet.

Why did I think it was like that. 😵

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On 2020-02-20 at 9:51 PM, VenomousValentine said:

Remove thrall/murmer farming. Still have liches contest territory that spreads, make it a chance a thrall can spawn in ANY mission of said territory, regardless of if it's a kuva flood, sortie, arbitration, relic mission, etc. A small chance. Maybe one per mission in this territory.

On 2020-02-20 at 9:51 PM, VenomousValentine said:

Make it so we need WAY less murmers. I'm talking like 20 per requiem reveal instead of 50.

DE did say they will address this, but removing RNG is a big No-No to them, so bacily. They Lied. 

I'm not gonna touch Liches until this is fixed.

Edited by Circle_of_Psi
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17 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

DE did say they will address this, but removing RNG is a big No-No to them, so bacily. They Lied. 

I'm not gonna touch Liches until this is fixed.

Removing RNG would reduce playtime and that would in term lower their revenue. That is understandable.

But on the other hand, if the RNG was toned down to normal levels, then it would improve the system immensely. Or at least reduce the murmur grind to 20 instead of 50. Would really help.

This whole abomination called the lich system is the most RNG thing in this game. No wonder it's horribly received even nowadays. But what baffles me is that they seem to not be in a hurry even though this has been one of if not the worst inclusion of the game. There are so many ways to make this system fun and interactive, most of the forum idea posts were actually with amazing takes on how to fix it.

I believe it has a chance.

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5 hours ago, Ernestasx said:

Removing RNG would reduce playtime and that would in term lower their revenue. That is understandable..

Why yes, this is the most important thing to worry about, not about the player-base or happiness, or putting care in their game, nope. Revenue.

5 hours ago, Ernestasx said:

But on the other hand, if the RNG was toned down to normal levels, then it would improve the system immensely. Or at least reduce the murmur grind to 20 instead of 50. Would really help.

It whuold yes and I can't stress enough, they WAS going to address this. <"WAS">

5 hours ago, Ernestasx said:

This whole abomination called the lich system is the most RNG thing in this game. No wonder it's horribly received even nowadays. But what baffles me is that they seem to not be in a hurry even though this has been one of if not the worst inclusion of the game. There are so many ways to make this system fun and interactive, most of the forum idea posts were actually with amazing takes on how to fix it.

Same here, but the same train goes, if it don;t give money, it gets left behind and forgotten for "wow better content"

5 hours ago, Ernestasx said:

I believe it has a chance.

Don't hold your breath son

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+1 to having thralls be more impactful encounters. Rarer and more difficult, but also more rewarding. If DE insists on murmurs then thralls could drop twice as many murmurs/relics in exchange for being twice as rare and having additional abilities.

I'd also be on board with an angry lich sending a thrall death squad after us if the death squad's level is tied to the current mission level (so our party members aren't screwed over by level 100 thralls showing up while trying new warframes in Mercury, for instance).

Also it would be fun to be able to ambush our lich while they were on a mission outside their territory. For example, there could be nodes periodically picked at random (like Void Fissure nodes) which have a "Lich Ambush" mission in their mission selection.

Defeating our lich in an ambush mission would let us steal the rewards from whatever task he/she was attempting. Our lich could be caught gathering void traces from a fissure, or hunting infested for resources, or mining an open world node, or looking for relics in a void node. Lots of possibilities!

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2 minutes ago, ImWithDerp said:

+1 to having thralls be more impactful encounters. Rarer and more difficult, but also more rewarding. If DE insists on murmurs then thralls could drop twice as many murmurs/relics in exchange for being twice as rare and having additional abilities.

I'd also be on board with an angry lich sending a thrall death squad after us if the death squad's level is tied to the current mission level (so our party members aren't screwed over by level 100 thralls showing up while trying new warframes in Mercury, for instance).

Also it would be fun to be able to ambush our lich while they were on a mission outside their territory. For example, there could be nodes periodically picked at random (like Void Fissure nodes) which have a "Lich Ambush" mission in their mission selection.

Defeating our lich in an ambush mission would let us steal the rewards from whatever task he/she was attempting. Our lich could be caught gathering void traces from a fissure, or hunting infested for resources, or mining an open world node, or looking for relics in a void node. Lots of possibilities!

I LOVE that ambush idea. Holy S#&amp;&#036;.

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16 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Why yes, this is the most important thing to worry about, not about the player-base or happiness, or putting care in their game, nope. Revenue.

It whuold yes and I can't stress enough, they WAS going to address this. <"WAS">

Same here, but the same train goes, if it don;t give money, it gets left behind and forgotten for "wow better content"

Don't hold your breath son

But if they are going to continue this with Corpus or other factions, then surely they will try to improve it at least somewhat. They are still in the red with Liches because of how people perceive them. It's the biggest hit they've received since a long time, so surely they care about revenue and in term they should make changes that benefit us first, then it will automatically benefit them.

They are a decent company which is much more than I could say to many others I've had the misfortune of being acquainted with.

Won't hold my breath, but I will look carefully at what they are going to do.

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I read some folks of Reddit discussing Liches...
So I have a question cause the following (not my idea) was an Idea that I liked.

If say...
Requiem Mods became permanent & lost the Charge system or only needed Kuva to be recharged.
Then the Murmur grind shouldn't be too bad at that point impo. As the hurdle of RNG behind RNG will be gone.

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People seem to be happy to pay 10p apiece for these things so I can't disagree that this is a good idea. I've been grinding out deluxe skins like crazy.

I don't get it though. You get relics from the liches, or can play a random Kuva Flood and get one even if you ignore the siphon. Defiled requiem mods can be transmuted into more requiem mods, so you get a free mod back for every four you use. Just how many of these things are you going through? For any of my own liches, murmurs have always been a longer grind for me than the requiem mods themselves. It's not difficult to keep a full set handy. 

I mean, it is for me, because I'm selling them so much more than I'm using them and have previously just dissolved them for endo after one use because I don't think there are any kuva weapons I want, but!

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

I read some folks of Reddit discussing Liches...
So I have a question cause the following (not my idea) was an Idea that I liked.

If say...
Requiem Mods became permanent & lost the Charge system or only needed Kuva to be recharged.
Then the Murmur grind shouldn't be too bad at that point impo. As the hurdle of RNG behind RNG will be gone.

I think this is pretty bad tbh. The grindy part is actually getting the murmers themselves, and not the requiem mods.

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22 minutes ago, VenomousValentine said:

I think this is pretty bad tbh. The grindy part is actually getting the murmers themselves, and not the requiem mods.

Just tossing it out there.

For me the Requiem grind has been the worst. Getting numerous duplicates of the same relic, then having Radiants reward Slivers & Ayatan Stars for weeks.

I made a Lich recently & have had to crack open 34 Relics. All Radiant...all of em gave me Slivers, Stars, or in the case of 3 of em duplicate Mods.

I'm sick of having to pay plat to ppl for mods. And no one is trading for Khra. =/

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22 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Just tossing it out there.

For me the Requiem grind has been the worst. Getting numerous duplicates of the same relic, then having Radiants reward Slivers & Ayatan Stars for weeks.

I made a Lich recently & have had to crack open 34 Relics. All Radiant...all of em gave me Slivers, Stars, or in the case of 3 of em duplicate Mods.

I'm sick of having to pay plat to ppl for mods. And no one is trading for Khra. =/

at least you can buy and trade those. Murmers take like 6 hours straight of mind numbing missions that give you nothing else.

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I farm up about ten mods in total and try to avoid duplicates when I have a choice, open up my shop on for about 20 minutes on warframe.market, and pull out when I've run low enough that I'm having to wait too long for the next order. After my last round of selling, no one bought my two Khra. That's the only thing I had left. X ]

But that's enough about me; let's talk about you, and how you can avoid getting ripped off by me. When I play with any full public squad, it's maybe one round in four that doesn't have a mod as an available reward. I stay about even on void traces by making a Flawless every three rounds or so; otherwise it's my intacts and a similar mix of intact and flawless from the other guys, because they've done the same math on how to maximize returns when you need quantity rather than single specific hits. In trade chat, any one mod is tradeable for any other mod with enough patience. When I've had to WTT [Fass] or [Netra] for [Khra], I've had a message back on the second 120s. That means that on average, you can get your set of mods from the effort of four rounds of any requiem fissure and a few minutes in trade chat at peak activity times.

Solo is slightly longer, but that's true of murmur farming too, by about the same rate.

Edited by CopperBezel
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