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Most Aura Mods aren't worth equipping

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3 hours ago, GeneralKaiga said:

why are there so many auras clearly meant to compliment the individual

Which ones do you consider as complimenting the individual but not the squad?

But I am not going to argue, feel free to think about auras anyway you like.

And btw, playing a mission with random players with no communication whatsoever about auras doesn't really have anything to do with this, since that is all about chance (and aura team effects has everything to do with synchronization).

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2 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Which ones do you consider as complimenting the individual but not the squad?

But I am not going to argue, feel free to think about auras anyway you like.

And btw, playing a mission with random players with no communication whatsoever about auras doesn't really have anything to do with this, since that is all about chance (and aura team effects has everything to do with synchronization).

Playing a mission with random players and no communication is like 2/3rds of the game my guy

Many of the auras help a specific playstyle or element that you lean on in your build, which you can't realistically expect enough of a typical group to use at once to be useful, for your group buff theory.

Examples include shepard, swift momentum, dead eye, speed holster, the weapon-specific ones, which are like a third of the mods.

And they do piddles for effectiveness. Yes, everyone loves the generalist ones like energy siphon and projection but those do piddles for effectiveness too.

Clearly this is a good way to go about it.

Edited by GeneralKaiga

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10 hours ago, GeneralKaiga said:

Many of the auras help a specific playstyle or element that you lean on in your build, which you can't realistically expect enough of a typical group to use at once to be useful, for your group buff theory.

🙂 It's not my "group buff theory", auras do actually buff all members of a group. And work as I described. Of course, you might have the opinion that this is a completely unintended consequence from the developer's side. Or you might, like me, deduce that this "group effect" is built in into the aura slot and the different auras by design.

We totally agree that it is completely impossible to foresee or plan aura composition in a random group (it is sort of self-evident from the word "random"), but this in no way limits or argues against the possibility of actually synchronizing aura effects. This synchronizing also happens continuously in the game, sometimes even only for the fun of it. We do it in the clan before certain missions and to check things out (like buffing one warframe's ability strength with 3X Power Donation). And just try to join a 4X or higher trid hunt (through recruit chat) without synchronizing CP & CD with the rest of the squad. Just to name a few examples.

I have to admit I don't quite understand the point of this discussion. You are perfectly free to believe that aura mods are not meant as "group buffs", but that doesn't mean that this is actually the case. My initial post was in no way meant as critique, I was trying to be helpful (the power of auras are quite under-used in the game). And if you really don't believe me, just check how aura mods are described on the wiki (or any other source): https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Aura.

Ok?

Edited by Graavarg

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11 hours ago, GeneralKaiga said:

Examples include shepard

Not trying to start a debate, but can't resist saying that we did this "animal squad"-thing during the Xmas break (= more consistent clan stuff), with everyone using Shepherd and with the made-up "rules"/intention that our Kavats & Kubrows should handle all the enemies while we just kept them buffed or doing our mission stuff (like excavating/surviving etc.).

4X Shepherd gives a "base" damage reduction buff to our "best friends" of 72% (if I remember correctly, this without any other armor mods, as most companions have a base armor value of 50), and a health buff of +1200. With Link Armor and Link Health (and appropriate warframe builds) we got into pretty insane end numbers (like pet health >10k), and ended up with basically unkillable pets (Vascas, oh boy... 🙂). The only "problem" proved to be pet damage output slowing down against really high enemy levels (beside laughing too much, especially when deploying 4 Khoras 😁). Everything of course also led to a friendly competition of having the "most lethal" pet (disqualified if getting downed)...

Sure, this is not super time efficient "META" play. But it was a lot of fun, and in it's own way also shows the power of actually using and coordinating auras (the damage reduction from the increased armor buff being more important than the health buff, in this case). And we've decided to repeat this setup as a "melee Moa squad", when the new Moa comes out 😉.

Edited by Graavarg

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I still can't really wrap my head around some of the combat discipline fans I've seen pop up in more recent times. I understand the potential benefit, I just have trouble imagining a situation in which that benefit is... actually useful? I feel like the game is just flooded with so many brokenly overpowered options for healing that can bring frames from near-empty to full near instantly, and tanky frames are borderline unkillable to begin with, while squishier frames usually are more worried about being caught out and suddenly dying outright in under a second.

maybe as a mostly solo player i really just don't have any grasp of what squad play is actually supposed to play out like.

(though nobody said it here what makes me laugh the most is when I sometimes see people say it's a great aura for trinity. that's definitely what the frame with a one-click full squad heal needs, another healing source)

Edited by OvisCaedo

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Am 21.2.2020 um 08:29 schrieb 0_The_F00l:

...

Corrosive projection is effective only cause armor scaling is such a PITA at higher levels , its not really that essential up to level 80 to 100 which is most of the star chart and sortie and its stack can completely remove the armor from enemies , maybe with the rrework for shields that is promised (SoonTM) we can see use of shield disruption too.

...

why do you need other aura then? i would chance it only if i need mod points. low lvl enemies die to fast and it doesnt matter which aura do you have. len/vaz and arcane energize make energy and heal aura horrible trash. nearly all auras need big rework. they are nearly useless atm. same with rifle amp etc. i done few missions with rifle amp and bramma against lvl ~100 kuva greener. its horrible... and even here you need mele.

cp is very good all-round aura and i prefer to kill weak enemies with aoe and kill strong units with mele. very safe and easy.

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3 hours ago, fuffi2milka said:

why do you need other aura then? 

I have already mentioned why, also Grineer is one faction, there are others that don't use armor. 

 

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If I've said it once I've said it a million times. 

The problem with Auras is no aura realistically matters with regards to normal gameplay. You can take literally any aura and not notice any significant change in the game experience.** 

The exception is specific instances where extended game sessions and broken enemy scaling *cough* armor *cough* mean that essentially one und only vun aura means a damn and that is corrosive projection. 

Which leads to the scenario where everyone equips corrosive projection because 

  • In general play Auras don't mean squat.
  • In the one instance where they do Corrosive is king. 

Aura formas attempted to change that tho rather hamfistedly however they missed the actual problem and that is Auras just don't matter in general game play. So why am I going to bother using an aura forma to allow me to freely change my auras when the aura I use essentially doesn't matter in the first place. Unless niche circumstances dictate it be corrosive? 

There are scant exceptions to this rule where certain frames/builds warrant the use of non corrosive auras but those are so scant I can probably count them on one hand and still have fingers left over. 

Myself personally I've just given up on caring about Auras and I'll use whatever aura amuses me because I don't diaper run to the point where corrosive is a necessity. Once I settle on an aura I forma for that auras polarity and I'm done, I'm not touching that aura slot again. I think I have one frame that has two different builds that use two different auras (Nova) for which Aura forma are ungodly overkill and I'd long since stopped being bothered by the aura being misspolarized in one loadout. 

At the very least they are worth equipping for the extra mod points and if you can't decide on an aura, ya might as well go corrosive in the event you ever actually need it even if you probably won't. 

 

**There might be some obvious benefits to extremely early game play where in which very new players are not sufficiently geared out. Tho one could say the same thing about survivability mods who's effectiveness is also significantly diminished as the game progresses. To the end that both are effectively moot outside of very specific circumstances.

Edited by Oreades

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CP on Mesa. 

DR while airborne on Titania.

Swift Momentum on the rest, aside from possibly Ash that can use an augment instead for combo dura.

The point in the game we need to get to in order to actually make CP useful is so deep in the levels that we realistically wont hit that point very often. Maybe if you prefer running around with gimp assault rifles etc. just for the fun and the feel you may get a sense that you'll need it earlier, but if you run with solid weapons and use them as needed you'll push well beyond level 150 mobs before ever feeling a need or notice a real difference from CP.

For pre-mades I can see the use, but in pre-mades that aura will also get swapped accordingly to the content faced. 

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10 hours ago, Graavarg said:

🙂 It's not my "group buff theory", auras do actually buff all members of a group. And work as I described. Of course, you might have the opinion that this is a completely unintended consequence from the developer's side. Or you might, like me, deduce that this "group effect" is built in into the aura slot and the different auras by design.

We totally agree that it is completely impossible to foresee or plan aura composition in a random group (it is sort of self-evident from the word "random"), but this in no way limits or argues against the possibility of actually synchronizing aura effects. This synchronizing also happens continuously in the game, sometimes even only for the fun of it. We do it in the clan before certain missions and to check things out (like buffing one warframe's ability strength with 3X Power Donation). And just try to join a 4X or higher trid hunt (through recruit chat) without synchronizing CP & CD with the rest of the squad. Just to name a few examples.

I have to admit I don't quite understand the point of this discussion. You are perfectly free to believe that aura mods are not meant as "group buffs", but that doesn't mean that this is actually the case. My initial post was in no way meant as critique, I was trying to be helpful (the power of auras are quite under-used in the game). And if you really don't believe me, just check how aura mods are described on the wiki (or any other source): https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Aura.

Ok?

... where did i ever insinuate that auras dont mechanically work that way, or their acting upon the squad was some unintended bug? I live next to a straw factory in real life, so i I'd rather not deal with it online too 🙃

No, auras remaining in their current  individually weak state being justified by their potential, but rarely actualized group power is something i feel is a bad concept that limits customization and playstyles.

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14 hours ago, GeneralKaiga said:

... where did i ever insinuate that auras dont mechanically work that way, or their acting upon the squad was some unintended bug? I live next to a straw factory in real life, so i I'd rather not deal with it online too 🙃

 

Well, applying logic is always welcome, and to be applauded. 👍 🙂 

Quote

No, auras remaining in their current  individually weak state being justified by their potential, but rarely actualized group power is something i feel is a bad concept that limits customization and playstyles

And if I break down your argument I would conclude that we actually are pretty much in agreement, argument-wise:

  • auras are individually much weaker than when used in groups
  • [ergo:] auras used in customized groups are much stronger than individual use
  • a squad of players can customize the sum effects of their auras (the potential of using any 4 auras in any combination)
  • a single player cannot actualize this "group power" on his/her own, as this actualization demands communication
  • pre-mission communication is unavailable (impossible) in random squad play, which constitutes a large part of Warframe
  • all this is by "game design" (= not an unintended consequence)

Something like that. With me so far 😉?

Where we (might) differ is in the approach to the conclusion:

  • My conclusion is that the "group power" potential is by design, allowing squads of player communicating with each other and pre-planning the mission and their gear to reach this additional "power" = "squad extra power" (by design). From a single player viewpoint the added mod space is an important "aura effect", and while some auras are still useful (beyond increasing mod space) others have quite underwhelming effects (when used on their own).
  • Your conclusion is (if I have understood you correctly) that the effects of (most) auras when used alone are so underwhelming that you consider the design to be a bad concept (from the single user viewpoint). As a result of this (bad) design, auras have too little or no effect on single player playstyle and customization. And since random squad play constitutes a large part of Warframe, this (bad) design has a large impact on the playerbase.

To me, even the conclusions support each other, the difference being only the initial hypothesis, which in itself doesn't contain any contradictions ("auras are strong in squad use by design" vs "the current design makes auras weak in single use").

Ok?

Edited by Graavarg

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People are always talking about these things being "squad play" tools but honestly outside of the 3-4 CP setup even 4 of some of the mods just isn't worth it.

Honestly I feel auras need their own 2.0 update, because a VERY narrow number of them are useful and because they give extra mod points you'll often find many just slamming in Steel Charge for cheap and easy mod points or CP just on the off chance more people are also using it.

They'd basically have to do a ground-up redesign of the system to make it less braindead.

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Le 21/02/2020 à 06:37, TARINunit9 a dit :

The only reason they haven't bothered nerfing Corrosive Projection is because they're reworking armor already, so they won't touch CP until after.

why are they so long to rework this ?

-it is a problem for a long time,

-changing the formula in the game code takes 5 minutes

-find a better formula take 20 min.

 

if you want a "better formula",

the actual is :

Current Armor = Base Armor × ( 1 + 0.005 * Level ^ 1.75 )

a better is :

Current Armor = Base Armor × (1+ min( 0.05 * Level ; 0.5 * level ^ 0.5 ) )

 

(and as nerf of the corrosive projection : make that the corrosive projection cumul multiplicatively, not additively)

Edited by GKP_light

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5 minutes ago, GKP_light said:

why are they so long to rework this ?

-it is a problem for a long time,

-changing the formula in the game code takes 5 minutes

-find a better formula take 20 min.

Because (good) game devs can't ever do anything without three months of playtesting. Per variable.

I mean have you seen how much faster modding teams who don't have plautesters are compared to teams that do? Without playtesting teams, mods get cranked out in weeks of not days. The high-profile mods WITH playtesters take months if not years

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il y a 2 minutes, TARINunit9 a dit :

Because (good) game devs can't ever do anything without three months of playtesting. Per variable.

I mean have you seen how much faster modding teams who don't have plautesters are compared to teams that do? Without playtesting teams, mods get cranked out in weeks of not days. The high-profile mods WITH playtesters take months if not years

It is possible to find a better formula than mine, that will maximise the game fun of as many players as possible, with lot of test.

But the actual formula is too bad to be the result of test.

The formula that i have write is far better than the actual.

Actually, at high level, the armor is just too high. without remove it, you don't have damage.

My formula solve it.

You can include it to the game, and the game will be better.

 

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