Remove "Friendship Doors"

[kapn655321]

2 minutes ago, Voltage said:

the door being removed still doesn't affect them because they aren't keeping up anyway.

"Get to extraction. 1 player waiting for you."
Instead of, "Teammate needs help opening a door."

People do need to be nudged, and the response I'm familiar with from those doors is practical and universal, "Oh. I'm on my way."
Where as, "I'm already at the finish line," gets the response, "I must be failing/they're impatient."

One gives a cooperative context, the other gives a divisive one.

[Crasharr]

Just now, Voltage said:

And how exactly will a friendship door solve this? Seems like mission failures are due to a lack of being prepared and not being great at the game. A door doesn't help this.

If anything it forces you to wait for back-up so you dont rush in solo, get overwhelmed and fail the mission for four people on your own.

[Voltage]

1 minute ago, kapn655321 said:

"Get to extraction. 1 player waiting for you."
Instead of, "Teammate needs help opening a door."

People do need to be nudged, and the response I'm familiar with from those doors is practical and universal, "Oh. I'm on my way."
Where as, "I'm already at the finish line," gets the response, "I must be failing/they're impatient."

One gives a cooperative context, the other gives a divisive one.

Both contexts are "I will be alt-tabbed until the rest of the party shows up". I much rather wait at extraction when I check Discord than checking mid-mission because I hit an unnecessary barrier that does nothing but impede the flow of the mission. There is nothing cooperative about waiting at the door. Cooperative context is confined within squad based objectives like Railjack, Profit Taker, Eidolons, etc, not a door.

2 minutes ago, Crasharr said:

If anything it forces you to wait for back-up so you dont rush in solo, get overwhelmed and fail the mission for four people on your own.

If you need backup then you shouldn't be rushing in. The door should not exist because people lack common sense in a basic mission. The situation you describe has nothing at all to do with the door.

[kapn655321]

5 minutes ago, Voltage said:

There is nothing cooperative about waiting at the door.

But there is about allowing your party to group up.. which is what those doors represent.

It's not a perfect mechanic, and was created a long while back, but it serves it's purpose.

For those who truly cannot be bothered to deal with the variables of team mates possibly taking too long, we have public/solo/invite/friends settings and clans for that, as well as mission types.. and, "common sense," would dictate people use those.. if they're easily triggered by loss of efficiency or people stopping to smell the roses.. however, "common sense," is far more subjective than it sounds.

Edited February 22, 2020 by kapn655321

[Senguash]

13 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

Those doors exist for you to have a courtesy button to remind them, "you're not the only one here."

Do people really need to be reminded of that?
Do they really?

[Crasharr]

17 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Both contexts are "I will be alt-tabbed until the rest of the party shows up". I much rather wait at extraction when I check Discord than checking mid-mission because I hit an unnecessary barrier that does nothing but impede the flow of the mission. There is nothing cooperative about waiting at the door. Cooperative context is confined within squad based objectives like Railjack, Profit Taker, Eidolons, etc, not a door.

If you need backup then you shouldn't be rushing in. The door should not exist because people lack common sense in a basic mission. The situation you describe has nothing at all to do with the door.

Well taking it all in what you said and argued I cannot disagree with you so I wont. But i will ask you why are you playing a multiple player game if you dont give a rats arse about anyone else?

A)   E-Peen

B)   Fashion Frame purposes

C)   Behaving like a troll and berating people

D) Playing a mission together and cooperating. Fighting enemies with more hands available. Allowing to do multiple things in a mission due to people able to take side tasks such as scanning simaris, doing the kuva siphon when the other(s) is/are doing the mission objective, getting murmurs, etc.

Just go play solo, problem soved, no one to slow you down, be less efficient, you dont get more of enything in a party of 4 anyways that you care about... go play solo my man. All is good!

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Crasharr

[IceColdHawk]

5 minutes ago, Crasharr said:

Well taking it all in what you said and argued I cannot disagree with you so I wont. But i will ask you why are you playing a multiple player game if you dont give a rats arse about anyone else?

A)   E-Peen

B)   Fashion Frame purposes

C)   Behaving like a troll and berating people

D) Playing a mission together and cooperating. Fighting enemies with more hands available. Allowing to do multiple things in a mission due to people able to take side tasks such as scanning simaris, doing the kuva siphon when the other(s) is/are doing the mission objective, getting murmurs, etc.

Also more enemy spawns = more action, loot and affinity for everyone.

Edited February 22, 2020 by IceColdHawk

[Crasharr]

5 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

D) Playing a mission together and cooperating. Fighting enemies with more hands available. Allowing to do multiple things in a mission due to people able to take side tasks such as scanning simaris, doing the kuva siphon when the other(s) is/are doing the mission objective, getting murmurs, etc.

added

 

btw i call D also something called "fun"

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Crasharr

[IceColdHawk]

8 minutes ago, Crasharr said:

Just go play solo, problem soved, no one to slow you down, be less efficient, you dont get more of enything in a party of 4 anyways that you care about... go play solo my man. All is good!

I've edited my previous post which explains how solo is not a solution. You guys keep saying we need cooperation and i agree with that completely but y'all think that friendship doors help cooperation when in fact, they work AGAINST cooperation most of the times. Also if nobody else has mentioned it yet, i'm gonna. Fissures as solo is a handicap. So please get rid of this thinking or do i have to send everyones favorite comrade limbo after you to tell you to go solo if you don't want to deal with all that rift stuff, in order to remind you how silly that argument is?

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

2 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

"Get to extraction. 1 player waiting for you."
Instead of, "Teammate needs help opening a door."

People do need to be nudged, and the response I'm familiar with from those doors is practical and universal, "Oh. I'm on my way."
Where as, "I'm already at the finish line," gets the response, "I must be failing/they're impatient."

One gives a cooperative context, the other gives a divisive one.

And yet both are just as likely to happen to the same player and often do. At least one of them has a 1 minute timer, whereas the other forces you to wait indefinitely.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

1 hour ago, Crasharr said:

Well taking it all in what you said and argued I cannot disagree with you so I wont. But i will ask you why are you playing a multiple player game if you dont give a rats arse about anyone else?

A)   E-Peen

B)   Fashion Frame purposes

C)   Behaving like a troll and berating people

D) Playing a mission together and cooperating. Fighting enemies with more hands available. Allowing to do multiple things in a mission due to people able to take side tasks such as scanning simaris, doing the kuva siphon when the other(s) is/are doing the mission objective, getting murmurs, etc.

Just go play solo, problem soved, no one to slow you down, be less efficient, you dont get more of enything in a party of 4 anyways that you care about... go play solo my man. All is good!

 

I play public to carry others. I have been playing since launch on PS4 and most of the content is trivial for me, even solo. I don't mind helping but let's not pretend the other players are playing public because they can do the content on their own. The vast majority of players on public need help, so they play with others.

[kapn655321]

So at the root of these conflicts, I see another problem: Matchmaking.

These interactions with others influence how we approach this game.
Sometimes, missions we want to play are prohibitive to enter, "because people we tend to clash with go there too often."
This thread in particular, every node that has these doors... whether you like or hate nodes that contain these, depends on how closely your preference is paired with your party.

Spoiler

 

You can see there are several people who have no problem with mechanics in mind that govern game time with consideration to others. It instructs pacing through compromise, and gives some order and support to those who joined public because they may not make it alone.

There are also those who feel it inconsiderate to make them wait, as it still benefits slow people for the mission to be complete.To avoid those points of pain, and streamline them out for a method that dictates a faster but more rewarding pace that can't inconvenience them.


These play styles are in direct conflict, and represent a difference in the level and type of service these customers expect from DE/Warframe.

Some people get disgusted with slow players.
Those people should never have to encounter slow players...
and it should be the easiest thing for them to do.

Here's my thought:
Matchmaking by preference.

Have a list of metrics that make or break a player's experience. (Similar to a dating site.)
<sub>"I don't mind if a player practices Shawzin in the middle of a timed firefight."
You may choose to mark one of the following if you wish.
( ) Strongly Agree,
( ) Agree,
( ) Indifferent,
( ) Disagree,
( ) Strongly Disagree.

"I expect the people in my party to know what they're doing, and execute these tasks promptly and to their best of their ability."
....etc.</sub>

A whole bunch of these points of preference to Reeaaally narrow in on how specifically you prefer to be catered to. If you're willing and able to be in whatever group, more power to you. If you're stuck reluctantly playing solo, or being Told to play solo.. it's because you just can't reach those who you connect well with as peers. ..and those who you clash with are reaching you instead of their peers.

There are people who just cannot enjoy their time if people aren't on the ball, and executing a certain standard of performance. Those players should absolutely get to have the experience they want; players that suit their needs are likely plentiful. No need to worry about these doors, because players who make you wait are a problem you have power to fix.. by picking the strongest matches, with a more strict pool or player proficiency.

There are people who welcome a game where there's no pressure; people are sometimes learning or struggling, but you want company and practice being cover for each other. Regardless of the outcome of the mission, some players are totally fine with kickin' it in a node for a while and testing things.. or easter egg hunting.. whatever. That's way more fun with people to explore with.. and their intent is not to make people's lives miserable to do it.

In both cases... these Wildly divergent playstyles do not have the proper mechanic to filter to these biases. What are they gonna use, our matchmaking?
Should either party have to become...?:
the overbearing jerk who says, "I don't want anyone leeching, and you better be competent to a reasonably high standard.. as if I should have to say that,"
or the filthy casual who says, "If anyone wants to kick it for 40 min scanning random garbage and breaking containers for little to no reward, PM me and we'll go kick it wherever."

Both are fun in their own right, but to very different audiences.
Both are trying to curate an experience for the party that they themselves find enjoyable.

For either party to enjoy Warframe reliably, those groups need a way to adjust preference, in order to not potentially regret and resent their time with public matches.

 

We're here railing against each other for playing differently.

The game design must come to resolve this with us railing against... a setting for matchmaking.
"I want more/less faffing about." scale of 1-100. Prioritize parties by strength of bias.
(Strong = most matches on critical factors. Decent = etc...)

Diffuse this whole mess and turn it into a more consistently good, fast, easy public experience.

More over, get to rate (for your own records) interactions with others.. particularly good, particularly bad, kinda one of the others, or nothing special/no conflict, etc.
^{Thumbs down relates only to how You match with them, having no impact against how they match with others. Games you are in would drop in their priority, offering you every chance to avoid another meetup, whenever possible..}
Tell the game if you'd specifically thumbs up or thumbs down that player to be matched again, and measure which metrics to prioritize more or less for people to have more statistically, Consistently, Good games with player parity and cooperation.. _{should the player find that feature helpful or even necessary to have}.

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by kapn655321

[844448]

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

And how exactly will a friendship door solve this? Seems like mission failures are due to a lack of being prepared and not being great at the game. A door doesn't help this.

From what I see, a door helps to prevent those wall-slammers from rushing in alone and die in the middle while the others try to catch up and run out of time to do the objective. At least in Asia we gather first before opening the door so better chance to wipe enemies while one or two player open the cells

[Yamazuki]

3 hours ago, Crasharr said:

If anything it forces you to wait for back-up so you dont rush in solo, get overwhelmed and fail the mission for four people on your own.

Just let said group fail.

Either way, it's typically only the rescue missions where people tolerate the doors, which is the only mission someone could fail, and even then, that's mainly for sortie due to the timer starting right as the door opens.

You're not going to fail an exterminate/sabotage/assassin mission because someone rushed in, worst that happens is they die and the group catches up. These doors were removed from the Railjack captain objective for a very good reason, it did nothing useful, but caused irritation; the same is true for any other door that isn't related to the door right before a rescue target.

These doors even appear in hallways that are dead ends.

[AzureTerra]

3 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

 it's still a 2 second stop.

On noes a Two second stop, the travesty of such a tiny delay in your otherwise lightning fast run from start to finish. I would hazard a guess you don't do capture missions because you'd have to stand agonizing few seconds still to capture the target. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by AzureTerra

[844448]

Let's say, I have an idea for friendship doors

1. They're no longer locked in the main path except rescue mission

2. They lock valuable items behind the door (nitain, forma bp, you name it) so leaving them means losing valuable loot

Now they have a purpose as a vault door instead of an obstacle

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, Crasharr said:

added

 

btw i call D also something called "fun"

 

 

[IceColdHawk]

1 hour ago, AzureTerra said:

On noes a Two second stop, the travesty of such a tiny delay in your otherwise lightning fast run from start to finish. I would hazard a guess you don't do capture missions because you'd have to stand agonizing few seconds still to capture the target. 

Still waiting for the good reason to keep them even in solo mode. Looks like you don't have one either.

[ShortCat]

14 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You know that you can see teammates, if they're reasonably close right? You don't need to be right on their heels to benefit, but you do need reasonable degree of proximity. 

Minimap covers just as much as affinity range, so hardly a guide beacon in the end. Furthermore, not all maps even have those doors. Furthermore, this is an issue with the map marker failing to guide players properly, unrelated to friendship doors.

Friendship doors have no porpuse and accomplish nothing but annoy players. Stop searching for reason where is none.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

Minimap covers just as much as affinity range, so hardly a guide beacon in the end. Furthermore, not all maps even have those doors. Furthermore, this is an issue with the map marker failing to guide players properly, unrelated to friendship doors.

Friendship doors have no porpuse and accomplish nothing but annoy players. Stop searching for reason where is none.

2D vs 3D. How many complaints exist that the minimap sucks at showing when things are above or below our level? 

And you also mentioned affinity. A mechanic that exists so that even if one player is hogging all of the kills, the squad will derive some benefit. But you acknowledge that benefit is only derived within a specific distance. Friendship doors allow newbs to close that distance from time to time. 

 

Look, it's like the elevators. I can be a &#036;&amp;*^ and hit the button despite seeing people about to enter, leaving them behind (substantially so, as most have a not insignificant travel time). But since I specifically chose to play in a squad, it's better for me to be polite and wait a few extra seconds so that the whole squad can make the trip together. 

You can make up all the nonsense reasons you like for not including these doors, but they serve a purpose in the game. And yes, that purpose is very specifically to make people wait on a squadmate to catch up to them. 

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

2D vs 3D. How many complaints exist that the minimap sucks at showing when things are above or below our level? 

And you also mentioned affinity. A mechanic that exists so that even if one player is hogging all of the kills, the squad will derive some benefit. But you acknowledge that benefit is only derived within a specific distance. Friendship doors allow newbs to close that distance from time to time. 

 

Look, it's like the elevators. I can be a &#036;&amp;*^ and hit the button despite seeing people about to enter, leaving them behind (substantially so, as most have a not insignificant travel time). But since I specifically chose to play in a squad, it's better for me to be polite and wait a few extra seconds so that the whole squad can make the trip together. 

You can make up all the nonsense reasons you like for not including these doors, but they serve a purpose in the game. And yes, that purpose is very specifically to make people wait on a squadmate to catch up to them. 

So you're saying it's alright if 2 players sprint ahead and leave the other group members behind since a friendship door only requires simultaneous inputs from 2 players? Why not make the friendship door require every group member if their intent is to keep the group together? Is it because that would be a bad idea that pointlessly slows down the mission, especially when players load in late?

At some point the mechanic fails at its purpose because someone is getting left behind. Elevators or those glitchy pods that teleport you mid mission are no different and players hastily interact with them and force a long reset animation for the other players.

So what is the goal of keeping the group together? Shared affinity? Letting players that spawn in late feel involved? There are better solutions to these problems than forcing a deliberate pause in the mission. Why not work on solving the real issue instead of forcing a mechanic that only works in slowing down the mission for the front 2 players?

[Mos-Eisley]

On 2020-02-21 at 12:08 PM, (PS4)LLnova77 said:

when this whole game is supposed to be about how quickly you can move and kill through a mission.

That's not necessarily what the game is supposed to be about, that's what you've decided the game is "supposed to be about". Not everyone plays Warframe to get through a mission as quickly as possible.

[Chappie]

Devil's advocate....lets add in more friendship doors.   One of the most interesting times in this game is when you are low MR and we seems to want to make that as a "bad thing". 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Why not make the friendship door require every group member if their intent is to keep the group together? Is it because that would be a bad idea that pointlessly slows down the mission, especially when players load in late?

You forgot that we DO have one of those. For the Kela encounter. 😉

[KIREEK]

Those doors only slow down gameplay and efficiency, sometimes the 2nd slowest player can be a really slow player, meaning you're there, with no enemies or things to do and so you stand still just waiting, in warframe you want to avoid this as much as possible because you're gaining nothing.

Over time 1 door can turn into hundreds of doors and alot of pointless waiting.

I do see the ocasional sugestion that reduces efficiency and as a consequence increases grind, to this day i don't understand why players want things to remain a slog, i see complains about about the grind in warframe and yet, the doors cause that, so removing them would be the ideal.

If DE is constantly concerned about fast players affecting the efficiency of newer players (similar to ember changes), and wants to keep the doors, then my sugestion is to add a miniobjective, attach some kind of a hacking device to the door and have enemies swarm the player hacking the door for 20 seconds, after those 20 seconds the door opens and mission resumes as normal. It slows down the game the same way for everyone and rewards players who decide to kill said enemies, there was an event back in the day where corpus enemies would rush to a locked door and enemies had to be killed, so the concept isn't entirely new.

Similar to this:

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by KIREEK