Remove "Friendship Doors"

[Morthal]

On 2020-02-21 at 11:39 AM, --Q--Weeb said:

They have no purpose besides slowing down and letting new players catch up for a moment, which then fall way back again anyway.

Thanks.

I must be an elitist because it takes some people more time to get to the door, than it takes me to complete the entire mission. In these cases, I'll just abort and go solo mode, take my chances with only 1/4 relics 😆

[Above]

49 minutes ago, Morthal said:

I must be an elitist because it takes some people more time to get to the door, than it takes me to complete the entire mission. In these cases, I'll just abort and go solo mode, take my chances with only 1/4 relics 😆

Nah dude, i feel you on that

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You forgot that we DO have one of those. For the Kela encounter. 😉

That one makes sense though since it is a heavily scripted boss encounter. I'm not against putting the team together for important sequences, but I'd much rather have friendship doors teleport players that fall behind after a timer counts down, similar to extraction, than to be forced to wait until they catch up.

Still, in most cases, the players will quickly fall behind again anyway so why have stop and go gates, instead of giving players bonus affinity for completing objectives? That way players can explore or do what they want while another finishes the mission. You get a large amount of bonus affinity when the objective is completed, just like spy vaults. Then the only limit is when they reach extraction you have 1 minute to catch up or finish what you are doing. Friendship doors do very little for either the player up front or the player behind for most game types.

[(PSN)d1771Hd]

6 hours ago, Mos-Eisley said:

That's not necessarily what the game is supposed to be about, that's what you've decided the game is "supposed to be about". Not everyone plays Warframe to get through a mission as quickly as possible.

I get your point, my wording was a bit exaggerated. But rescue and capture missions are definitely meant to be run quickly. It's not fair for either side to say, "just go run solo if you want to play that way." It's reasonable for me to say the large majority of players don't want to play those missions at typical fps speed like you're playing Call of Duty. And if some players want to play fast and some want to play slow while in the same mission, both play styles should be allowed. Right now, players are being discouraged from running those missions as fast as they can and I personally don't think the doors we're talking about do anything at all but annoy players on both sides of that argument.

I would much rather be able to run through a mission, past all the enemies I don't care to kill, and be allowed to afk at the end of the mission if the objective is already complete, than have to get stopped by one of these doors, wait for teammates, pass all the enemies again and sit at another door waiting for teammates again, before finally being able to get to extraction. I'm sure players would still complain about slow players, but I couldn't care less if I have to wait a minute at extraction for players to catch up. Having to wait in the middle of the mission, multiple times a game after the objective is complete, is what personally bothers me.

[(PSN)d1771Hd]

It would be nice start for DE to fix the current UI issue where the "a player is waiting for you to help open a door" notification would go away after that door opens. It's been an issue long enough that I have become desensitized to it and often don't know if there's actually someone waiting for me or if it's another bug.

The objective and extraction markers being hella inconsistent in showing players where to go is another issue that's even more of a problem than friendship doors. New players would be able to get through the map faster if those markers actually helped players get to their objective faster.

[AzureTerra]

23 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Still waiting for the good reason to keep them even in solo mode. Looks like you don't have one either.

I don't need to give a reason to keep them, other than to annoy people like you. Which is actually a very good reason to keep them.

[(PSN)KillJoyDOD]

On 2020-02-21 at 3:13 PM, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

There's a perfectly good solo mode. 

LOL Exactly!!! You can open the "Friendship door" all by yourself and give yourself a big, warm hug!!!! lololjajajawwwwww!!!! XD

[Travis05]

idk how it is for everyone. But after doing thousands of missions as fast as you can, it gets boring. It doesnt feel fast at all, just your default speed. You are so used to it that gradually you dont try to rush things anymore.

I take my time on missions, trying to improve accuracy, or exploring rooms. I change to default speed when i want/need. So those doors dont feel annoying for me.

Usually when the message appears: your friend need help to open a door, i rush there and thats it. No more than half a minute if the door is far. Surely people can wait that much? Or like they say, play solo if you are so bothered.

Until now i didnt find a afk player and i always use to play public. Well i found some, but usually on Cetus and when that happens i leave the mission, dont want someone leeching.

Things are much better and less stressful if only people chill a bit.

[(PSN)Jason_V_Jade]

On 2020-02-21 at 1:54 PM, GrayArchon said:

They're for precisely that reason, to slow you down if you're getting too far ahead of new/slower players. It's not fun to wander through a level with tons of corpses and drops and never see a living enemy.

With certain frames that can still happen even from behind doors.

[ShortCat]

23 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

2D vs 3D. How many complaints exist that the minimap sucks at showing when things are above or below our level? 

And you also mentioned affinity. A mechanic that exists so that even if one player is hogging all of the kills, the squad will derive some benefit. But you acknowledge that benefit is only derived within a specific distance. Friendship doors allow newbs to close that distance from time to time.

What are you even talking about? Waypoint problem is a waypoint problem. Period. You do not solve wonky map navigation with forced stops. I mentioned Affinity range as a rough reference to how far you can see on a minimap, a distance that can be covered in a few seconds and thus cannot serve as a guide beacon to navigate lost players, as a response to your previous point.

If you want to talk about strawman called Affinity gains, then friendship doors still fail, because:

1. They usually separate the squad in short missions or inbetween mission objects, where enemy densitiy is low or the misison itself is not used for Affinity gains in the first place.
2. You assume that squad consists only of 2 people, a rusher and a snail, which is not the case.
3. For the 3rd time, if a slow player could not keep up, chances are high he will be left behind again (if point 2 is not applicable).
4. Friendship doors are not even present in every misison

On 2020-02-23 at 12:14 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Look, it's like the elevators. I can be a $&*^ and hit the button despite seeing people about to enter, leaving them behind (substantially so, as most have a not insignificant travel time). But since I specifically chose to play in a squad, it's better for me to be polite and wait a few extra seconds so that the whole squad can make the trip together. 

Elevetaros are just as badly designed as friendship doors, thus latest tileset reworks hardly utilize elevators in the first place, or those elevators have an open ceiling as well as doors, so that players just can jump down or up.

On 2020-02-23 at 12:14 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You can make up all the nonsense reasons you like for not including these doors, but they serve a purpose in the game. And yes, that purpose is very specifically to make people wait on a squadmate to catch up to them. 

I pass the nonsense ball back to you, since I am not the one with weak arguments or strawman friends. I marked the only use of friendship doors in red. Point is, next to their questionable initial intent, they act more as a troll or inconvenience tool.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

29 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

What are you even talking about? Waypoint problem is a waypoint problem. Period. You do not solve wonky map navigation with forced stops. I mentioned Affinity range as a rough reference to how far you can see on a minimap, a distance that can be covered in a few seconds and thus cannot serve as a guide beacon to navigate lost players, as a response to your previous point.

If you want to talk about strawman called Affinity gains, then friendship doors still fail, because:

1. They usually separate the squad in short missions or inbetween mission objects, where enemy densitiy is low or the misison itself is not used for Affinity gains in the first place.
2. You assume that squad consists only of 2 people, a rusher and a snail, which is not the case.
3. For the 3rd time, if a slow player could not keep up, chances are high he will be left behind again (if point 2 is not applicable).
4. Friendship doors are not even present in every misison

Elevetaros are just as badly designed as friendship doors, thus latest tileset reworks hardly utilize elevators in the first place, or those elevators have an open ceiling as well as doors, so that players just can jump down or up.

I pass the nonsense ball back to you, since I am not the one with weak arguments or strawman friends. I marked the only use of friendship doors in red. Point is, next to their questionable initial intent, they act more as a troll or inconvenience tool.

And I pass it back with a single word: Solo. 

Like any poorly behaved child you have a choice to make, learn to play nicely with others, or play on your own. 

And yes, it's really that simple. 

[ShortCat]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And I pass it back with a single word: Solo. 

Like any poorly behaved child you have a choice to make, learn to play nicely with others, or play on your own. 

And yes, it's really that simple. 

This is a multiplayer game. What we are discussing here is an issue with its roots in the mutiplayer part. If the best thing you can say is "solo", you are not worth my time or attention, since you neither understand the issue at hand nor how stupid this response is.

[IceColdHawk]

10 hours ago, AzureTerra said:

I don't need to give a reason to keep them, other than to annoy people like you. Which is actually a very good reason to keep them.

Glorious community. You don't need to give a reason because you don't have one.

2020 and yet there's still people defending the most ancient and unnecessary game elements. An anti-coop element in the game is being defended with "coop arguments". I must be in the wrong movie or something. Outstanding, honestly.

Edited February 24, 2020 by IceColdHawk

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

This is a multiplayer game. What we are discussing here is an issue with its roots in the mutiplayer part. If the best thing you can say is "solo", you are not worth my time or attention, since you neither understand the issue at hand nor how stupid this response is.

Yes it is, but when your issue with the multiplayer game is having to wait for the other players to catch up every once in a while, then you should stop pretending that your reason for complaining is that you "want to play a multiplayer game". 

As for not being worth your time, *shrug*. People with a falsely inflated sense of entitlement often seem to have that sort of issue. Another manifestation is not wanting to pause long enough for the rest of your squad to catch up. Most other people begin to learn how to play well with others by the time they hit kindergarten. I guess it takes some people longer than others. But don't worry, most of us will be happy to wait for you to catch up. 

 

[Voltage]

7 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And I pass it back with a single word: Solo. 

Like any poorly behaved child you have a choice to make, learn to play nicely with others, or play on your own. 

And yes, it's really that simple. 

Just because Solo is an option doesn't mean it's an actual counter-argument to any co-op related feedback. Try using that argument on Railjack (before they removed them), or Void Fissures.

People are not complaining about slow team mates directly. People are complaining about a mechanic which is ancient, unnecessary, has no purpose being in the game these days (looking at @IceColdHawk's comment which still hasn't been answered) that results in frustration towards teammates, and this mechanic is objectively bad for every player in a mission. If you take your time, you don't want the pressure of someone waiting at a door. If you are going fast, you don't want to have to be slowed down to the slower pace of the lobby. The door objectively forces you to change your pace on both ends unless you don't care about the guy waiting at the door while catching up. In this case, you would be following your own text:

7 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Like any poorly behaved child you have a choice to make, learn to play nicely with others, or play on your own. 

This topic after five pages still has no argument to keep them.

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Most other people begin to learn how to play well with others by the time they hit kindergarten.

When you are a teenager (college for example), you are hit with the harsh reality that nobody likes the person slacking on a group project/lab. You are frustrated with the slacker, but the real problem is you are mad at your instructor for giving you this partner at random. In this situation, the friendship door is your teacher and the squad mate is that partner you didn't ask for. As an adult, slacking in similar situations eventually gets you fired from your employment. There is good reason for the lack of friendship doors, because time is valuable.

Why have this problem in Warframe? If you want to value everyone's time, there is no need for the door. Why not just remove the door and players can just do the mission how they feel? Waiting at extraction vs waiting halfway through the mission are entirely different situations. The former is no worry as you can AFK and come back to your Orbiter. The latter gets frustrating, and the sole problem is the door, not the player you get frustrated with.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Voltage

[Drachnyn]

I agree that waiting at extraction is not an issue at all and I'm frequently the first one there in pub groups. Once i'm at extraction i can just tab out and look at discord or whatever. Due to friendship doors being random there are also the even worse cases where the level generator spawns them directly in front of the extraction, directly before the rescue prison or in the very first room of the mission.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

51 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Just because Solo is an option doesn't mean it's an actual counter-argument to any co-op related feedback. Try using that argument on Railjack (before they removed them), or Void Fissures.

Railjack? You mean the mode that people have managed to solo right from the start? And the reason why we radshare the fissures is that it boosts the chance we'll get the specific reward we want, not because it's mandatory. You're more than able to solo it if you don't want to have to play with others. 

I'm sure that you were trying to make a valid point but obviously it's fallen flat. 

55 minutes ago, Voltage said:

People are not complaining about slow team mates directly. People are complaining about a mechanic which is ancient, unnecessary, has no purpose being in the game these days (looking at @IceColdHawk's comment which still hasn't been answered) that results in frustration towards teammates, and this mechanic is objectively bad for every player in a mission. If you take your time, you don't want the pressure of someone waiting at a door. If you are going fast, you don't want to have to be slowed down to the slower pace of the lobby. The door objectively forces you to change your pace on both ends unless you don't care about the guy waiting at the door while catching up. In this case, you would be following your own text:

You really need focus on what's going on and spend less time inventing reasons for why people have done what they've done. 

The door is meant to have us work together with a teammate. This forces us to make a token gesture towards being a part of a team. Bear in mind that this is only an issue for people who are playing a multiplayer game, with other people. If you intend to act like you're alone, play alone. 

And hint, nowhere did I give any indication that I don't make an effort to get to the doors asap. A lot of the time I'm the one sitting there waiting. And I'm fine with that. Because I can acknowledge that I'm a part of a team. 

To make it even clearer, I'm often more than happy to drop waypoints and go at a more sedate pace if I notice that someone is likely to be a newb, or is dying regularly and needs revives. If you have rushed to the extraction and a newb needs a revive, are you going to be in a position to go back and get there in time to help them out? 

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

This topic after five pages still has no argument to keep them.

Choosing to ignore what you don't like, is on you. 

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

When you a teenager (college for example), you are hit with the harsh reality that nobody likes the person slacking on a group project/lab. You are frustrated with the slacker, but the real problem is you are mad at your instructor for giving you this partner at random. In this situation, the friendship door is your teacher and the squad mate is that partner you didn't ask for. As an adult, slacking in similar situations eventually gets you fired from your employment. There is good reason for the lack of friendship doors, because time is valuable

And again, most functioning members of society have found ways to deal with that issue. If your first reaction is to throw anyone who is struggling, under the bus, that says more about you than you may be willing to admit. Many of us will first try to help lift them up to our level. If you can't do that, you have the option to go it alone with all of our blessings. 

And no, sorry, but your subjective value of your time, isn't something that others are expected to share. If you made it into college and didn't realize that, then I guess we'll have to wait for you to catch up too. 

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Why have this problem in Warframe? If you want to value everyone's time, there is no need for the door. Why not just remove the door and players can just do the mission how they feel? Waiting at extraction vs waiting halfway through the mission are entirely different situations. The former is no worry as you can AFK and come back to your Orbiter. The latter gets frustrating, and the sole problem is the door, not the player you get frustrated with.

You want to be a part of a team? You want to at least pretend to act like you are instead of demanding to be allowed to afk during your public matches? 

[Kaotyke]

We should evolve.

"Friendship doors only open if both players shake hands"

This is what we need.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I'm sure that you were trying to make a valid point but obviously it's fallen flat. 

Voltage has a vary valid point. As do many players in this thread for getting rid or having some/more alternatives to "friendship"  doors.

That's said, what are your motivations for defending such a vary obvious dated and archaic mechanic such as these "friendship" doors? What negatively effects you directly by not keeping them, especially when you can just follow your own advice and play solo too? The conclusion is either way those doors are completely unnecessary. So therefor your whole defense of them is ultimately moot. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

Voltage has a vary valid point. As do many players in this thread for getting rid or having some/more alternatives to "friendship"  doors.

That's said, what are your motivations for defending such a vary obvious dated and archaic mechanic such as these "friendship" doors? What negatively effects you directly by not keeping them, especially when you can just follow your own advice and play solo too? The conclusion is either way those doors are completely unnecessary. So therefor your whole defense of them is ultimately moot. 

Team play ≠ standing afk at extraction. 

The doors force people who are ostensibly playing in a team to actually do an activity that involves a teammate. By reminding us that not everyone is a highly skilled vet who knows what they're doing, it gives us a chance to help them to improve. 

That might be something as simple as going slowly enough to show them the way (which friendship doors do enforce up to a point), or keeping us within affinity range a little longer (also enforced by the doors), giving us a quick chance to team buff, or keeping us within range to revive a downed squad member. 

Demanding that people who don't have a problem with the way the doors work, and are ok with waiting for people to catch up, play solo doesn't make any sense in relation to why DE should give you what you claim to want. Think about it. 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2020-02-21 at 12:53 PM, (XB1)Dee Dubbalyoo said:

As a fairly new player, I totally agree with this. There's always so much happening on screen that I've missed the prompt on a fair few occasions and I always feel a bit guilty when I finally catch up and realise that someone has probably been waiting for me for a while. I don't really see that they achieve anything other than making the new guy feel bad and testing the patience of the more experienced players

It really rustles my jimmies when I have to sit for several minutes because someone is either slow, lost, or just not motivated to get to the door. It ain't personal, it's just frustrating that it basically pauses the game for you and you cant do anything about it

 

On 2020-02-21 at 12:39 PM, --Q--Weeb said:

They have no purpose besides slowing down and letting new players catch up for a moment, which then fall way back again anyway.

Thanks.

This. 

On 2020-02-21 at 1:07 PM, ZeroX4 said:

well u know its like u go into public/co-op mode and u want to move like u play solo?
i hate this doors with burning passion but in the end u go into mission with with ur squad and that is team effort u dont leave ur squad mates behind
but yeah u will encounter ppl in slug mode and that is stupid part 

Playing solo is always an option but that doesnt mean they cant do something about it.

On 2020-02-21 at 1:08 PM, (PS4)LLnova77 said:

If a newer player is getting left behind from the start, theyre still going to get left behind again once that next door opens. Like someone said above, I understand why it's necessary before rescuing a target and other similar situations, but getting 2 or 3 throughout a mission suckss when this whole game is supposed to be about how quickly you can move and kill through a mission.

A better fix would be to have at least some kind of system that prioritizes placing players with other players closer to their respective MR. It doesn't have to be exclusive but I feel bad getting paired for an exterminate sortie with a low MR player because what's the point of slowing myself down when the issue is lack of content being catered to different skill levels. Friendship doors don't fix that.

 

On 2020-02-21 at 1:20 PM, (PS4)LLnova77 said:

Those doors literally don't stop that from happening. This would be less of a problem if MR 28 players didn't have the same chance to pair with an MR 5 as anyone else. Between content not being locked for players who have no business attemping that mission, and matchmaking doing nothing to sort players by MR, DE really needs to make some kind of change because friendship doors just frustrate both sides because experienced players constantly have to wait at them, and new players feel guilty wasting other players time by not playing fast enough.

I dont think it should be based on mr but I agree completely with the point that if someone is slow enough getting to the door that its actually an issue they're just gonna get left behind again. 

On 2020-02-21 at 1:33 PM, Godzilla853 said:

If a player goes afk and a friendship door needs 2 people it will open if you activate it because the other person is AFK.

Unfortunately that can take awhile to kick in. 

I havent had someone go straight up afk very often. What's more common is this ADHD "hey look a butterfly" thing where people dont even try to find the door for several minutes

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The doors force people who are ostensibly playing in a team to actually do an activity that involves a teammate

So those "friendship doors" are currently the only thing that requires any sort of team synergy. Nothing else in the game requires team synergy to complete to move forward. 

 

38 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

By reminding us that not everyone is a highly skilled vet who knows what they're doing, it gives us a chance to help them to improve. 

There are other more up to date basic fundamental mechanics available that can have the same impact and also at the same time do a better job at this. These "friendship doors" are a simplistic cop out, if you will.  And still ultimately objectively unnecessary and 100% contradict the flow and style of Warframe's core ninja gameplay. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

58 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

that people who don't have a problem with the way the doors work, and are ok with waiting for people to catch up

 Its my belief there should be a way around "friendship doors" just like there is a way around most elevators. (Even though elevators are dated and stupid and contradict Warframe ninja gameplay as well.)  There should always be alternative routes, maybe a bit more parkor involved  but the outcome should remain the same. A alternative route for faster players, to unlock "friend doors" and give the slower player a chance to "catch up" but also give the more skilled player a reward for being more skilled. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[(PSN)Jason_V_Jade]

Only issue I have with optional route is if you have two players you will force the other to take the same indirect route as well because the other person cannot open the same door alone.

Not all players are as skilled with parkor for whatever reason and this could cause strife if they are left behind a locked door.

Some would call that selfish if one thinks about it.

Maybe instead one could just hack the door or use the scanner to find weaknesses and use the drilling laser to cut through the door if they don't want to wait for another player.

[Xyngrr]

Friendship doors need to stay in the game for teamplay reasons.
Regardless of how much you overvalue your time, feign ignorance or express disdain of teammate skill levels, and thumb your nose at even giving a passing nod to teamplay in a multiplayer game it still serves the design purpose of rallying some or all of the squad at a set point to promote that everyone gets some play. Multiplayer may be simply more then one pawn controlled by more than one person in a common environment at a digital level, however on a human level you are working with others doing the same for a common goal. If that's not what you want, change your gamemode or reach an accord with the other players by communicating with them.
If you've chosen to bypass everything and leave your one-man-short team behind to clean up the now-high alert death squads while you lounge around at a locked door as your team dies, that's on you.
Multi-input doors as operating as designed, requiring multiple people to open impedes traffic. Also sounds like the kind of thing you'd want in a secure facility, right? Maybe they should give two coded badges to the enemies in an area you have to find, or a badge and a remote terminal, or multiple remote terminals that form parts of a common hacking puzzle you need to connect to unlock the door... all kinds of interesting ways to get people doing things for a common goal. Someone mentioned workarounds allowing you to parkour pass the door which is also a good idea, so long as at the exit of the channel it unlocks the door for the rest of your team automatically so you can be the hero specialist helping your team complete the objective faster.