Warframe Difficulty defenses from community

[Darklord_Tou]

Just now, Serafim_94 said:

Oh, it was absolutely a bandaid fix.But what else could have worked back then? What would work now?

Maybe balancing the actual problem aka the abilities that was broken instead putting a band-aid fix over the problem and calling it a day.

 

Just because something has been broken for long time doesnt mean devs shouldnt bother to fix it. I think both devs and community in general reached a point where its not "dont fix it if its not broken" but more like "dont fix it if no ones complain". And which is why we are in a unbalanced mess that is warframe right now.

[HelNite]

IMO the game is perfectly fine difficuulty wise but there are 2 problems:
- that people who arent willing to put in the time and effort to become better and stronger by avoiding the grind that naturally comes with a co-op looter shooter like warframe hit difficulty walls very easily want less difficulty (tho i dont blame them; farming rare mods, hunting a kuva lich, formaing its weapon 5 times, deciding if its worth the potato, killing more liches tho max out the dmg bonus all after mastering as many warframes as possible for a versatile arsenal is very time consuming)
-long time veterans who have already minmaxed their arsenal will instantly breeze through any new content DE releases adjust to new metas in a matter of days and be left with no more reason to get stronger and finding all other content in the game get increasingly easier over time thus the ratio of content that is difficult vs easy continues grows
*picture it like this:
-DE releases kuva liches
-veterans struggle to kill them for a day and then adjust to the lich hunting metas ie. bring tanks instead of dps frames and powerful crit based single target damage weapons like the balla zaw or rubico prime
-newer players who just barely completed the war within are now able to summon their own kuva lich and are instantly torn to shreads by an enemy out of their league who gets exponentially stronger over time if they do finally manage to be mercied reaching up to lvl 95- 105, and when this person finally gets their kuva weapon they barely have access to the mods potatoes and forma required to make it worth using within days of its aquirement
 

there is simply no fix for this at the moment aside from giving newer players a better explanation on what they should be doing at their level and giving veteran players something they can actually spend enough time doing that DE can release new content, all things the developers are activly working on

im not saying the game is perfect but complaining about something that is subjective wont change anything since for all the players who want easier content an equal amount of people will want more difficult content

Edited February 22, 2020 by HelNite

[MPonder]

Warframe need to be redone, like Anthem

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

Theres 2 people on the forums: 

People bored of fighting level 500 enemies. They at least had the experience and knowledge to reach that level.

Then theres the people with no reason to complain because they're having trouble with level 100 enemies. They probably act like a vet but never really tried to push the boundaries. They usually gloat about having not did something because they're too cool, when really they're hiding that they're a bad player.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, gluih said:

I'm not trying argue, that warframe should be as slow as dark souls. It's just, that imo wf is way faster than necessary.

Indeed it is

2 hours ago, Serafim_94 said:

You know what goes extremely well with timed telegraphed attacks? Peer-to-peer ping.

Also, do tell what kind of "heavy-hitting" attack is needed to punish Inaros, who can facetank Ropa lasers. What kind of ability will prevent Mesa from annihilating enemy on sight. I'll give you the answer to the second one. Nullifiers. A definite fan favourite around here.

You guys are all about armchair theoretics. You write one and the same nonsense about "better AI" or "difficult enemies" without thinking how it can ACTUALLY be implemented in an actual game. Most of the time - it can't, or really shouldn't.

They need to tone down things like Inaros just as they need to change how Mesa works, aswell as frames like Revenant that can cover up to 80m or more on certain maps. It isnt about slapping things onto what we have, it is about actually making the system good overall.

And graphed attacks are less of an issue with peer-to-peer than having bullet hell and peer-to-peer.

[Mr.Fluffins]

1 hour ago, Darklord_Tou said:

Maybe balancing the actual problem aka the abilities that was broken instead putting a band-aid fix over the problem and calling it a day.

 

Just because something has been broken for long time doesnt mean devs shouldnt bother to fix it. I think both devs and community in general reached a point where its not "dont fix it if its not broken" but more like "dont fix it if no ones complain". And which is why we are in a unbalanced mess that is warframe right now.

And once again you are saying words without having a slightest clue on how it should actually be done... This is not about "a few broken abilities." Before crazy DR and damage were a thing, CC spam were... For enemies to be able to realistically handle us without nulifiers and other hard counters, almost all warframes would have to be nerfed hard, just so that a small number of people would get "challenged" (and everyone has his own idea of what challenging means anyway). And everyone here just loves hard nerfes, right? Community that can get foaming from its mouth crazy over riven dispo nerfs will take this mega nerf really well, right? Right?

This is not going to work. At all.

The only reason some people here complain about "muh challenge" is because this game doesn't periodically wipe progression like almost all other life service games out there (either through hard power creep that makes old gear obsolete, "sequels" or seasonal re-sets). And I, and I am sure many others, like it this way, no wipes please.

Not a single game that isn't an e-sport pvp that I know of remains challenging after thousands or even hundreds of hours - not dark souls, not hardcore platformers, hardcore strategies with the most difficult ai, nothing. Please understand this, and don't expect a game to challenge you with your hundreds or even thousands of hours of experience and dragon hoards of items and resources.

23 minutes ago, MPonder said:

Warframe need to be redone, like Anthem

??? So a company that promised an "amazing, super-duper awesome life service looter shooter that will blow your minds" and delivered a buggy barren piece of sh1t promises, after one year, to do an "amazing overhaul that will make it good"... And you honestly believe it? Well I have some rocks to sell you, they keep tigers away.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Mr.Fluffins

[844448]

1 hour ago, LascarCapable said:

These frames pretty much shaped the endgame we have today, and had an even stronger impact than our "beloved" nukers, to the point where anything you fight at sortie level can down most squishies like Banshee or Nyx in very few hits (or a single one) in the most unfair ways.

Counterpoint, squishies like Banshee can knock enemies off their feet, with temporary armor removal with augment, boosting damage via marked spots, stunning and deafening enemies and keep them stumbling while Nyx can push enemy aggression to an enemy, armor/shield strip, mass confusion to make enemies fight each other when coupled with stripped defenses can be effective and potential nuke by absorbing damage

Unfair? Maybe but squishies have their own play as caster/support instead of taking hits to face

[MPonder]

2 hours ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

??? So a company that promised an "amazing, super-duper awesome life service looter shooter that will blow your minds" and delivered a buggy barren piece of sh1t promises, after one year, to do an "amazing overhaul that will make it good"... And you honestly believe it? Well I have some rocks to sell you, they keep tigers away.

The game is broken and there is no way to fix it without changing a lot of stuffs.

1- Enemies = boring, need to remake, specially bosses.

2- Every content (Fortuna, Railjack, Disruption, Arbitration, etc) is just the same easy thing we do, done a little different or just the simple and pure recycle of the content, which is defense, kill, get something/someone. There is hardly a connection between them, nor a final goal to do them, and sometimes, maybe no need to them actually even if they have some form of rewards, because these rewards won't be need for you for any actual or future content.

3- You hardly get any sense of progression, lots of stuff are just throw there for MR fodder (Weapons, Warframes) because they are not even a good alternative, simple MR fodder. If I keep playing or stop playing from now on, I'll be probably as strong as I am now in like 2 years of game with either choice.

4- Scaling is broken on enemies, and Warframes. Warframes need to have some form of scaling too. Our frames are capped by the mods we have. If they introduced every now and then a form of Armor with tier that you could put your mods on it instead of your Warframe, and the mods power increase with armor tier, that would be one way of scaling. Same for Weapons, no scaling means the game will always be #*!%ing easy no matter what they put in the game after you get some good warframes, weapons and upgrade your mods/arcanes, they can make cheese stuff like neeing a archwing to fight a boss, but changes nothing in the end.

5- No content Warframe has right now can be made Endgame without radical changes on Enemies and Warframes.

 

Warframe need to 2.0

Edited February 22, 2020 by MPonder

[Mr.Fluffins]

6 minutes ago, MPonder said:

stuff

Your "armchair developer" notes on the game that are based purely on your subjective opinion and nothing else have nothing to do with the text you quoted, which was about bioware being crap and their promises of any kind of reworks to their mediocre game meaning nothing untill they prove it... Like do you even read what you quote?

[3rdpig]

I'm willing to bet that that 90% of the people playing the game can find a difficulty level somewhere between 1 and 100 that's comfortable to them. I know people that think "high level missions" are level 25 and I know people who solo sortie 3 and think it's stupidly easy. Other than the new player experience for the former and PvP for the latter, most game designers are going to design for the middle between those two extremes.

Now you'll ask "Why do they design for the middle and not the extremes?".  For the same reason people rob banks, because that's where the money is.

 

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

5 hours ago, gluih said:

Well if you have actual difficulty, you also have the freedom to dramatically increase drop chances. This also has the added advantage, that things naturally become easier to get over time as the content gets easier to beat.

True, but the things you're getting from that content have likely been deprecated by the time that happens. So is it really an issue? It's about time leveling became a little less of a chore. But for my part, I doubt "difficulty" would come with adjusted drop tables.

We're on the same page, Tou. If it's any consolation, DE has been banging on a way to add selectable difficulty. Different versions of each node means dividing the star chart even further. Adding specific difficult nodes doesn't change what you're doing 95% of the time. So they've understandably had a hard time implementing something. Recently, they announced their intention to adjust armor values with the goal of making endurance runs pick up faster. It's not ideal, but it shows they aren't ignoring it. Just struggling to find a good implementation.

[Serafim_94]

3 часа назад, Darklord_Tou сказал:

Maybe balancing the actual problem aka the abilities that was broken instead putting a band-aid fix over the problem and calling it a day.

 

Just because something has been broken for long time doesnt mean devs shouldnt bother to fix it. I think both devs and community in general reached a point where its not "dont fix it if its not broken" but more like "dont fix it if no ones complain". And which is why we are in a unbalanced mess that is warframe right now.

There's no fix at this point. It's quite literally impossible without reworking entirety of the game, reworking every single warframe and rebalancing every single weapon. It will also include taking away all of our broken toys like arcanes that people spend thousands of plat/ hundreds of hours to get. Look at annual *@##$ing about riven disposition changes, and think, for a moment, how well THAT wave of nerfs will go. And how many people will be actually left to play Warframe after that. I'm sure all 10 of them will enjoy their "challenge" though.

[Falseliberty]

WE WANT DIFFICULTY ... meanwhile no brain no aim I'm a Ignis wraith mains are everywhere

DE has tried but players find ways to cheese everything and thats really the bottom line do we give up our flexibility and loadout options for more challange?

The player base can't have it both ways. And anytime its tried half the player base goes nuts. which leaves us with the only difficulty they can throw at us .. RNG to slow us down

[BloodyEy3]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb Serafim_94:

It will also include taking away all of our broken toys like arcanes that people spend thousands of plat/ hundreds of hours to get. Look at annual *@##$ing about riven disposition changes, and think, for a moment, how well THAT wave of nerfs will go. And how many people will be actually left to play Warframe after that. I'm sure all 10 of them will enjoy their "challenge" though.

i personally dont see a problem with it. (lets take memeing strike and melee punchthrough changes for one). Everyone thought it is godawfull. "warframe is dieng". now people dont even mention it anymore.

The riven thing is a problem overall. (2 sides of it). 5% only play for riven and their absurt plat profit on "god"rolls. Only thing they do is buy all veiled rivens, or trash rivens, get kuva, roll, sell for profit. Buy everything on release that warframe has to offer. --> cleary they gonna be butthurt about a dispo change that ruins their 10k income to 2k income.

The other people are those that actually buy those rivens --> clearly they gonna be butthurt about their "loss" they paid 10k for specific stats and the dipso is trash now so the riven is bascially not worth using afterwards.

--> essentially both are are the same playergroup (the only way you get that amount of plat is either through riven trading, or arcanes).

and guess what those that have all arcanes and minmaxed builds and god rivens, are those that ask for the challenge. there is a reason why 80% of warframe community *sights* when they see a mr8 in high lvl mission. Or get frustrated by average player "skill". maybe with my 1300h and being in a decent variety of clans, i always wonderred to the 0,00001% with certain opinions...

then some people tend to me "new" player friendly but say if someone slows them down 30sec on axi defense they leave group or they wont revive person x when he is downed in a lvl 40 mission.

There is just a gigantic gap between newplayers and "veterans". and most cant see that because the time they had everything unlocked far overshadows the first 50h unlocking star chart, playing solo (only 2-3 warframes, basic mods) maybe 1 good loadout with a forma or 2 and a catalyst or reactor.

btw. ive never heard a new player say this game is too easy, especially not solo. So i think specially the "endgame" parts of warframe, can be pulled down a bit. (arcanes,focus schools, rivens)  on the previous page i gave a more throughout opinion of what should be subject of change and how it should be changed (its direction)

 

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

4 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

There's no fix at this point. It's quite literally impossible without reworking entirety of the game, reworking every single warframe and rebalancing every single weapon. It will also include taking away all of our broken toys like arcanes that people spend thousands of plat/ hundreds of hours to get. Look at annual *@##$ing about riven disposition changes, and think, for a moment, how well THAT wave of nerfs will go. And how many people will be actually left to play Warframe after that. I'm sure all 10 of them will enjoy their "challenge" though.

You are being dramatic. Perfectly well-balanced combat with a great growth arc for both players and enemies--that ship sailed six years ago.

But enemies who pressure you enough to be a threat before they go down, without being unreasonable? That's doable, and won't require drastic changes to existing content.

There is another thread just a few topics below this one, where people are expressing that Veil Proxima infantry are challenging with mid-tier equipment. So, yeah.

[YandereWaifu]

7 hours ago, gluih said:

The worst thing is, that by not actually introducing any challenge to the game they are also attracting players, who don't want difficulty. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

I do think one factor is also, that they are playing with the illusion, that difficult content is going to be there at some point. The longer this goes, the less credible that promise becomes.

imo this is already the case. 

how many years now have they dropped hints or promised difficult content and when they drop it theres some catch or its nothing like they said. 

- Plains of eidolon, remember how in all those streams and interviews they sayin it gets much more dangerous at night newbies beware. 

- Void onslaught - turned sanctuary onslaught turned and split into regular SO and Elite SO but with the drain mechanics ramping up drastically around round 8 + other factors that make it not worth it to continue past round 8. 

- arbitrations - real challenge, one life only - seems to have random death bugs, arb drones are much more annoying than challenging and they removed the one life thing infavour of revives. 

its been going on for so long now and theres so much examples that for me that credibility is long gone. 

[MPonder]

Warframe doesn't have difficult, and never did since I started playing. Been oneshot because I didn't have the gear at some point was not because of difficult. If I have the gear, then I do it = easy, if I have and still can't do it because of skill/knowledge = difficult. If it is easy to solo = easy, not easy to solo = maybe difficult.

DE is not trying to put difficult, nor doing Vertical/horizontal progression, nor did try. Tanks aren't the cause of how easy stuff are, making the same enemies more tank/more dmg is just the lazy way of trying to introduce difficult. Players cheesing aren't the ones to blame, only DE.

 

Stop trying to give good or reasonable excuse for why DE do stuff. All they do is, put some long grind there, some rng here, some low drop chance there = content. DE is not your friend, why you guys defend them so much or put good reasoning why they did stuff. Are you guys at least getting payed?

Edited February 22, 2020 by MPonder

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

4 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

If you guys want difficulty that doesn't essentially translate into enemies close from impossible to kill that one hit kill you, then you will have to seriously consider the most inconsiderable, sinful and criminal action to do in your lovely space ninja game. Something so abject, people here are afraid to talk about it and strongly believe they will get arrested for it. It's like the Voldemort of the warframe forum ! What am I talking about ? I'm talking about nerfs. Ooooh ! Spoooky !

Most of the issues we have with the game's current balance are, in my opinion, and indirect consequence to the effective hp gap between frames. Super tanky frames like Nezha or Baruuk can reach an insane amount of effective hp thank to damage reduction powers. Some frames don't have anything DR related but can compensate very effectively through other reliable means. Either by very high base stats (Inaros), very effective regeneration (Oberon, Wisp, Wukong, and Inaros again) or special mechanics that can effectively make them invincible (Limbo, Revenant, Rhino).

These frames pretty much shaped the endgame we have today, and had an even stronger impact than our "beloved" nukers, to the point where anything you fight at sortie level can down most squishies like Banshee or Nyx in very few hits (or a single one) in the most unfair ways. Because high survivability became a must have, this pushed players more and more towards high health and armor frames, or frames who can cheese the whole thing effortlessly (Limbo is very well known for that kind of stuff). As a side effect, shields progressively became useless.

We asked for more difficult content. DE delivered through content such as Sorties and Arbitrations. But we chose to cheese that difficulty with tanks in return. As a result, the game is getting more and more balanced around frames with insane survivability, to the point where everything gets reworked to be tankier. If you don't believe me, just consider the fact that Ember got her Overheat power back in some way.

This is why it gets very urgent to balance the effective hp between warframes so we can then balance the game's content better and make actual "endgame" missions that wouldn't translate into squishies getting perpetually trashed while tanks can pretty much shrug off everything. This effectively means nerfing a lot of survivability based stuff, but also nerfing heavily the enemy damage curve, along with buffing low survivability frames. 

The biggest offender when it comes about boosting effective hp is, of course, damage reduction. Consider this : 90% DR is the equivalent of increasing your maximum hp by 10 ! When I put my warding halo on my Nezha, I'm effectively increasing my health by 10 until the halo breaks (and most of us Nezha mains know how durable that halo is). Now take armor reduction into account, add an umbral build and two arcane guardians, and you will get a frame that can reach above the 40k hp treshold, which is absolutely mental yet very needed for the current difficulty curve. This is why I'm in favor of hardcapping DR to 75% instead, which represents a much more reasonable x4 effective hp increase.

Heal based mechanics and Iron Skin might also need turning after that, but that's nothing simple value tweaks cannot fix. What would be harder to balance however is the more special kind of survivability powers. Powers such as Mesmer Skin for example (I heard it can get really crazy), or Limbo's rift mechanic. These powers may need to be adressed individually.

Just nerfing survivability wouldn't fix those who struggle to stay alive to begin with. This is why I think base stats of all warframes should be looked at. In the current metagame, low armor is usually a hard flaw to get around with, so I think all armor values should be buffed to at least 150 as a minimum armor value. That represents 33.33% damage reduction on health : not much in the end to be honest but with an enemy damage nerf it can go a long way. Shields also need to remain viable, and we all know how much shields lost popularity since the introduction of sorties. I think raising the shield base stat for all warframes could do wonders, as well as releasing some specific mod to helps shield tank. Adaptation is supposed to be the one thing you pair with shields (like health pairs with armor), but it doesn't work as nicely as everyone think it does to begin with due to its buildup mechanics. We probably need something else.

Of couse these suggestions wouldn't be meaningful without a drastic nerf to enemy damage output ! A very needed thing when you consider that some level 100 units can one hit kill Banshee Prime through a full vitality and redirection (yes, it gets really crazy). It's basically all about making the hp gap between frames narrower so we can balance the enemy damage output much, much more effectively and in the end get the same horde game you guys appreciate, but without anyone getting one hit killed unfairly. After all, squishy frame players kinda want to enjoy endgame game too, and they shouldn't have to do fancy building shenanigans just to make their warframe 's survivability work. Also, since we nerf the damage output of enemies a lot, then it would just mean that 90% DR or really busted survivability isn't as much of a requirement anymore, thus justifying the hardcap of DR and several more changes.

After all of that, I think It would be much easier to make a well balanced endgame missions that allows all warframes to be useable. It's maybe still not enough tho. The warframe endgame balancing is one hell of a problem that was ignored for way too long and it all stems from survivability powers first. Anyway, changes are needed, and not just nice buffs. We can't just keep buffing stuff. Repetitive buffing is what brought us in that situation to begin with. It's time to bring out the nerf hammer... And it shouldn't be that bad if it's done well, I promise.

Where we're you when we needed you last year fighting the good fight for end game tenno😢lol all jokes aside personally due to the community being a custom to the state of balance as you said also DE neglecting balance difficulty will never happen 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

3 hours ago, Corvid said:

Considering that I've seen these exact arguments used several times, not really.

Ooo not did I use them all last year 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

There is another thread just a few topics below this one, where people are expressing that Veil Proxima infantry are challenging with mid-tier equipment. So, yeah.

See nothing provides challenge with these enemies besides armour values. And let's say of de just said lets make more enemies like that we get difficulty through damage reduction (which really isn't difficulty considering the fact it's not taking more skill to kill or thought but longer) something they are very fond of. It's the same non threatening ai but woooo it takes less dmg that's not hard it's really tedious 

[Serafim_94]

39 минут назад, (PS4)BlitzKeir сказал:

You are being dramatic. Perfectly well-balanced combat with a great growth arc for both players and enemies--that ship sailed six years ago.

But enemies who pressure you enough to be a threat before they go down, without being unreasonable? That's doable, and won't require drastic changes to existing content.

There is another thread just a few topics below this one, where people are expressing that Veil Proxima infantry are challenging with mid-tier equipment. So, yeah.

Let's get this out of the way - Veil Proxima infantry is #*!%ing insane, with absolutely broken health and damage. I can still completely disregard their damage with Mesa while 2-hit killing them with Viral/Slash Tigris, or corrosive Gaze. And my friend just stunlocks them with Nekros, of all the frames. That second "strategy" doesn't require some bonkers build. Just an augment and usual corrupted stuff.

THAT is what's I'm talking about. Normal player minding their business in the starchart and maybe getting into Sorties can't even start to imagine the Veil Proxima level infantry. Yet here we are, facerolling them. Balance that.

I actually like VP, for it makes use of the real power of my arsenal. It's nice to actually need that stuff. But something tells me it's not the "difficulty" threads like this talk about. Just a gear check.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Serafim_94

[Learicorn]

I said it once and i'll say it again

If i need to move from my exotic sitting/laying position to be able to deal with said difficulty i don't want it in Warframe

Edited February 22, 2020 by Learicorn

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

10 hours ago, Darklord_Tou said:

I think one of the biggest issue warframe have been struggling from the early stage of the game is its difficulty. Also i am not a new player to the game i have been playing the game for more then 4 years and this issue still bugging me since the start. Now whenever this discussion is brought up i tend to see this few lines:

1. "You are suppose to be a god-like being fighting weak mortals" (A Power fantasy game if you will). Okay this idea is not bad but it doesnt actually translate well in video games. Its fun to obliterate everything in matter of seconds easily for about 10mins. But warframe is a game where you are suppose to be grinding for hours and hours doing the same loop it gets boring really fast. Now dont get me wrong it is fine to shut off your brain for a while playing/talking with your friends. And you can definitely have that(low level farming) in a game while also having really difficult teeth grinding challenging missions like many game already have. But you also need some challenging stuff for tryhards/endgame players or whatever.

2. "if you think game is too easy just use mk1 braton unmodded". Okay this is just straight up nonsense you might aswell tell people to play with hand tied or with there feets.

Also i think there is a difference between fun difficult and not fun difficult. And many tries where devs tried to add difficult stuff to game it falls mostly on not-fun difficult. I think when trying to create a new mode DE should try to figure out if its gonna be fun to do it for hours and not just think of cool looks because cool looks gonna wear off pretty fast but good gameplay loop wont.

1) I disagree. I like the feeling of being powerful. 

 

2) there are people that will spend hours and hours refining their builds to make them as OP as possible and then turn around and complain that theyre op. This doesnt make sense to me. And I (or someone else) will usually say "well nobody is forcing you to use fully min-maxed builds if you want more of a challenge". Then theyll usually say "well why should I play with one hand behind my back reeee"

Then turn around and argue that DE should tie our hands behind our backs across the board with nerfs. 

 

I dont see any difference between me tying my own hands behind my back and DE doing it for me other than the fact that if DE does it I no longer have as much control over how much power I have which to me, and a lot of other people, would make the game less fun.

 

I dont like games that try to be difficult just for the sake of being difficult. It would be quick and easy for DE to give every enemy in the game 500% damage and health. Maybe make armor scaling even more exponential than it already is, apply to all factions, and remove corrosive procs from the game. 

BOOM. the game is "hard now".

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

See nothing provides challenge with these enemies besides armour values. And let's say of de just said lets make more enemies like that we get difficulty through damage reduction (which really isn't difficulty considering the fact it's not taking more skill to kill or thought but longer) something they are very fond of. It's the same non threatening ai but woooo it takes less dmg that's not hard it's really tedious 

The longer it takes to kill a target, the more the other targets are able to pressure you. To deal with that, you need 1) CC, 2) good reflexes, or 3) high DR. Some Empyrean units have CC resistance (more of them should, granted), and the maps are designed so you are often semi-exposed or moving directly through large groups while navigating. Veil enemies can pierce even Nezha's DR. The enemies have an answer for most things, but are still able to be overwhelmed, and live long enough that they are a genuine threat to the careless. Is it the ideal approach? No. Could it be improved? Definitely. Is it better than what we normally fight? I say hell yes.

Numbers on a spreadsheet aren't interesting. Numbers that change the situation can be.

But if you want to talk AI, oh boy do I have a lot to say about that. I've made 7+ paragraph posts of very specific criticisms and suggestions on the subject. The amount of work involved in overhauling enemy behavior would be substantial, but not insurmountable. Maybe I'll go into it on a more appropriate thread, when I'm not caffeine crashing.

10 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

Let's get this out of the way - Veil Proxima infantry is #*!%ing insane, with absolutely broken health and damage. I can still completely disregard their damage with Mesa while 2-hit killing them with Viral/Slash Tigris, or corrosive Gaze. And my friend just stunlocks them with Nekros, of all the frames. That second "strategy" doesn't require some bonkers build. Just an augment and usual corrupted stuff.

THAT is what's I'm talking about. Normal player minding their business in the starchart and maybe getting into Sorties can't even start to imagine the Veil Proxima level infantry. Yet here we are, facerolling them. Balance that.

I actually like VP, for it makes use of the real power of my arsenal. It's nice to actually need that stuff. But something tells me it's not the "difficulty" threads like this talk about. Just a gear check.

From the sound of it, we have pretty similar feelings about WF's difficulty. In an ideal world, the kind of overhaul you were describing in your initial post is exactly what I want. But at this stage, I will settle for endurance-level enemies without having to wait an hour, and more interesting objectives. That's basically Empyrean. It's not perfect, but it's a start.

Or, you know, I'll play something else... No offense to DE. I've just played this game for way too long. It will take something extraordinary for me to relive pre-armistice glee.

[Aldain]

8 hours ago, 844448 said:

Define good gameplay loop

Slow but steady progress rather than "Another shot at a .02% drop" is my definition for a grinding based game personally.

If you've played/know about FF14 the Tomestone/Token systems of that game make gear not an RNG factor at all, of course that is a much more strictly structured MMO than Warframe, but that is just a comparison.

Think like Vitus Essense for a mod like Rolling Guard, it may take a small amount of time investment but every Vitus Essense you get gets you closer to what you want, it also means if you change your mind or have leftovers you can still use them on other things that cost Vitus Essense.

Basically rather than farming for a rare drop I'd rather farm twice as long for a unspoken promise that I will get something out of my time investment, which is a better gameplay loop in my personal opinion.