Warframe Difficulty defenses from community

[Corvid]

3 minutes ago, NigglesAU said:

Whats a reasonably solution aside from improving the AI and making enemies all bullet sponges?

Reigning in power spam. Fixing the Energy Economy.

Our ability to trivialise the game is half the problem. Solving that would go a long way.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Corvid

[kwlingo]

13 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

These frames pretty much shaped the endgame we have today, and had an even stronger impact than our "beloved" nukers, to the point where anything you fight at sortie level can down most squishies like Banshee or Nyx in very few hits (or a single one) in the most unfair ways. Because high survivability became a must have, this pushed players more and more towards high health and armor frames, or frames who can cheese the whole thing effortlessly (Limbo is very well known for that kind of stuff). As a side effect, shields progressively became useless.

We asked for more difficult content. DE delivered through content such as Sorties and Arbitrations. But we chose to cheese that difficulty with tanks in return. As a result, the game is getting more and more balanced around frames with insane survivability, to the point where everything gets reworked to be tankier. If you don't believe me, just consider the fact that Ember got her Overheat power back in some way.

 

 

I like to test out the first stages of Fortuna. From what I heard you actually had to have some skill to survive in that open world. Im totally down for that level of difficulty, where Nukers/ Tankers dont have much of a place because of nullifiers but skill level did. Possibly a reward table that matches the enemy skill level required. If you decided to go in at lowest rank enemies some rare loots have no chance of drops .0001% but on higher level entries those rare loots increase to 5-7%. At the same time probably you wont make it out alive or with only 1/ no more revives. Going into a 30min to 1hour mission knowing I might lose the reward because I might not have what it take to get to the reward.

[(XBOX)Timidobserver]

Game has so much power creep that difficulty isn't possible. Either it's oneshot mechanics or easy. 

[gluih]

8 hours ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

True, but the things you're getting from that content have likely been deprecated by the time that happens. So is it really an issue? It's about time leveling became a little less of a chore. But for my part, I doubt "difficulty" would come with adjusted drop tables.

We're on the same page, Tou. If it's any consolation, DE has been banging on a way to add selectable difficulty. Different versions of each node means dividing the star chart even further. Adding specific difficult nodes doesn't change what you're doing 95% of the time. So they've understandably had a hard time implementing something. Recently, they announced their intention to adjust armor values with the goal of making endurance runs pick up faster. It's not ideal, but it shows they aren't ignoring it. Just struggling to find a good implementation.

I liked the idea of reducing the number of nodes on the star chart.
Make sure, that each of the mission types is available in the different level ranges, but rotate which planets have which missions available and what level those mission are at.

[Aldain]

4 hours ago, 844448 said:

That means kuva lich and valence fusion is a good gameplay loop now by your definition

I mean yeah, better than it was before, which was RNG on top of RNG, it isn't perfect, or even amazing, the key point is that its is BETTER than the .02% slog for perfection.

Being better even if only marginally is still better than leaving something as a slot machine.

...Though I fully admit I still hate Kuva Liches with a inferno-tier passion I can at least also admit DE is half-ass trying to make it less awful at least.

[32768]

20 hours ago, Darklord_Tou said:

I think one of the biggest issue warframe have been struggling from the early stage of the game is its difficulty. Also i am not a new player to the game i have been playing the game for more then 4 years and this issue still bugging me since the start. Now whenever this discussion is brought up i tend to see this few lines:

1. "You are suppose to be a god-like being fighting weak mortals" (A Power fantasy game if you will). Okay this idea is not bad but it doesnt actually translate well in video games. Its fun to obliterate everything in matter of seconds easily for about 10mins. But warframe is a game where you are suppose to be grinding for hours and hours doing the same loop it gets boring really fast. Now dont get me wrong it is fine to shut off your brain for a while playing/talking with your friends. And you can definitely have that(low level farming) in a game while also having really difficult teeth grinding challenging missions like many game already have. But you also need some challenging stuff for tryhards/endgame players or whatever.

2. "if you think game is too easy just use mk1 braton unmodded". Okay this is just straight up nonsense you might aswell tell people to play with hand tied or with there feets.

Also i think there is a difference between fun difficult and not fun difficult. And many tries where devs tried to add difficult stuff to game it falls mostly on not-fun difficult. I think when trying to create a new mode DE should try to figure out if its gonna be fun to do it for hours and not just think of cool looks because cool looks gonna wear off pretty fast but good gameplay loop wont.

Pfff. 1 is what people are asking them for and this is what they did, and this is what made Warframe popular, so it's actually a rational thing to do. There is a demand for this kind of game, they have fulfilled this demand, actually good job. 2 is what i do when i want to play the game like a normal shooter without obliterating everything i see. So again, good job.

Their problem is much deeper and can not be fixed with some small changes. If you think about it, enemies scale (almost) infinitely, as far as numbers precision goes in CPUs, but your gear only goes to 30. So it's a one-way ticket no matter what you do. You can't scale past 30 (or 40), there always will be a hard cap and someone will always say "we need more powa" and someone is going to say "this is too easy", hence power creep.

Hopefully they can figure something out. My best guess is that they are going to opt for the game being fun, so we are probably stuck with obliterating everything until this kind of fun breaks the game completely. But this won't probably happen any time soon. (Or maybe it will, IDK).

Edited February 23, 2020 by 32768

[Yamazuki]

3 hours ago, Corvid said:

Reigning in power spam. Fixing the Energy Economy.

Our ability to trivialise the game is half the problem. Solving that would go a long way.

Weapons already trivialize the game. It's at a point where if an enemy takes longer than 2 seconds to kill (unbuffed), people complain. It makes zero sense to nerf Warframes beyond ruining playstyles that revolve around using abilities.

[TARINunit9]

21 hours ago, Darklord_Tou said:

Also i think there is a difference between fun difficult and not fun difficult. And many tries where devs tried to add difficult stuff to game it falls mostly on not-fun difficult. I think when trying to create a new mode DE should try to figure out if its gonna be fun to do it for hours and not just think of cool looks because cool looks gonna wear off pretty fast but good gameplay loop wont.

You're getting warmer on the issue. Lemme spell out my theory: Warframe is a game that does not test player skill, only player prepared-ness

Point one: If we look at the most basic form of enemy gunplay, Warframe's difficulty is AWFUL. Enemies will just spawn on all sides of you and gun you down. It's like playing Doom, but all the demons have hitscan guns instead of fireballs. For the first few levels this isn't a problem, the starting enemies enemies are all weak (in both games), but eventually you start fighting wave after wave of respawning bullet sponges

Point two: However, Warframe gives the player the tools to kill all the enemies quickly. It's Doom, but with easy and early access to the BFG and tons of ammo for it, you will just wade through hordes of enemies in the early levels

If these metaphors are getting confusing, let me circle back to my earlier point: Warframe only tests you on how much you grind for the best guns and mods, not how skilled you are at using them. Enemies cannot be killed with skill alone, like they can in Dark Souls or other games with strong speedrunning scenes. You MUST come into the mission with a strong gun and strong mods and a Frame with enough health and strength/range/duration/efficiency, or you simply will not win. Even with a perfect aimbot, the enemies will just not die and eventually cut you down

[844448]

4 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I actually enjoy being bested in wf

Spectralyst wants to know your location

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

19 hours ago, 844448 said:

Define good gameplay loop

Oh, this is a fun one.

A gameplay loop is a set of activities you progress through repeatedly in sequence in order to accomplish a greater task. Sometimes these loops are really obvious, like Destiny 2 at launch. Sometimes these sequences aren't completely linear, have branching paths, or may even fold in on themselves once or twice.

Warframe has several independent loops that occasionally interweave. Rivens and leveling are the big ones.

To get a riven, you run sortie or open relics. Once you have the riven, you unveil it by completing a simple task. Then you roll it by grinding 200,000 kuva. There are several ways to get kuva (one of those "branching paths" I mentioned): siphons, kuvival, and grinding thralls/liches. Taking the latter path causes the riven gameplay loop to intersect with the liche gameplay loop, which is nice. Once you get your riven properly rolled, you probably have to go and re-level your weapon, so it intersects with the leveling loop too.

This is an example of a sorta okay gameplay loop. Now let me tell you about a bad one.

In WF, leveling can be done at a (debatably) reasonable pace in one of three ways: sanctuary, defense, or stealth. Pick one and run it until your equipment is maxed. It is the thing you will be doing the most of, next to kuva grinding, or (for some) tricap. These missions never change. No matter how many times in a row you run them, they will play out in exactly the same way every time. Maybe one time a Nox will get the jump on you, or some guy will be cool/annoying, or you'll actually go to wave 20 holy crap. But that's it. A single activity repeated until ding without any variation is a "gameplay loop" only by the strictest definition. It's almost as bad WKC's multiplayer guild bs where one specific mission was five times faster for leveling than the next-most rewarding mission, so you would run it about 5000 times because anything else was a waste of time, no I'm not joking it's about 5000, and it was exactly the same in the sequel you can't make this S#&$ up BUT I DIGRESS.

If you don't feel familiar with the concept after my explanation, well, find someone smarter, soberer, and more awake to do a better job. It's 2am and my whole body hurts.

[Marvelous_A]

Difficulty in this game always falls in one of two categories. Cakewalk and getting one-shot.

Content in this game are mostly brain dead until you get to certain stage and your warframe starts dying instantly.

[BloodyEy3]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb kwlingo:

to go in at lowest rank enemies some rare loots have no chance of drops .0001% but on higher level entries those rare loots increase to 5-7%

next common warframe problem. they want more difficulty but that HAS to be accpanied by a) something great you only get from there b)better drop chance for x loot or c) more loot

a) b) and c) make u get better stuff more quickly. which descreases the difficulty again (see a loop?)

literally what arbitration is. (hello adaption that finally completly broke the game)

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Corvid:

Reigning in power spam. Fixing the Energy Economy.

Our ability to trivialise the game is half the problem. Solving that would go a long way.

so bascially redo the last 3-4 years in that regard. and the only thing that that honeslty would do is push harrow and trinity in favor (99% why every group had an ev).

energy econmy is not balanceable when 2 warframes completly nullify it.  Also everyone wanted the ability spamm. before it was more shooter, now its a power fantasy.

so there are alot of ways to fix abilites. nerf narrowminded, transient, overtended, and blind range. reduce the ability duration (specially on self cast buff,/dmg reduction) reduce that baseline effecny of an ability. (alot of warfrmaes get to max dmg reduction from <200 strength).  reduce all passive energy regen (zenurik). dumbster energize !! 40% chance on most frequent "restore" orb.  --> compare it to pulse. pulse has lower chance to trigger on a lower drop chance orb on a "restore" for which we have so many other possible ways. (lifesteal, arcanes, way more warframes have hp restore then energy restroes).

a selected few mods, arcanes, squads (4 corrosive projection), just broke the game. when max blindrage with max primed flow and 2 arcane energize enables to still spamm cast every ability.

--> maybe increase the energy leech enemies ! (but rework them). stronger imobile unit that drains (tf 2 healer visual, a gun that drains energy, blue zoom from you to target --> mainly so can spot him, he is not affected by abilites (special armor) and has a container on his back like (coolant rakants that fill up). if killed normally, container explods and energy is "lost". if killed by finisher 50% of energy drained restored --> only drains from 1 target and only he can perfom finisher to get energy back)

so its more an enemy type then aura type. Could be implemented for corpus aswell (but they atleast already have nullifiershields). and infested have the disruptors (but i wouldnt mind everyone getting version of them, maybe infested unit reduces max energy and health pool (up to 50%), and corpus (maybe a thether or shockball that when you use an ablity while its on you it deals magnetic/electric dmg with 100% chance for elrectic status proc and cancels the ability cast)

so more anti fun guys like nullfires (the corpus drones that give such a shield are probably the most annoying enemy in the game and if u get killed in orbvallis its cause those little pesks gave everything a nullifier shield) ----> more enemies like that (abitration drone compared to that is a joke.  you just aoe cluster#*!% which kills drone --> 99,999999% how u die in arbitration is selfkilled from aoe weapons (nullifier shields are more annoying as its more like a bullet sponge, projectile amount matters more then the dmg)

[Corvid]

20 minutes ago, BloodyEy3 said:

energy econmy is not balanceable when 2 warframes completly nullify it.

Which is why said rework would take them into account and modify them accordingly. Do try to keep up.

21 minutes ago, BloodyEy3 said:

Also everyone wanted the ability spamm.

Funny, because I was here from fairly close to the start, and I never saw any threads demanding it.

[BloodyEy3]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Corvid:

2: Obviously, changes need to be made to how abilities, as well as how enemies react to them. That doesn't mean we're going to suddenly become powerless.

giving it a quick readthorugh, thats the only thing ive found that came close to what you said.

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Corvid:

Funny, because I was here from fairly close to the start, and I never saw any threads demanding it.

so how come energy become less and less of a rare resource  ? why isnt there a huge revolution if noone likes to constatnly use all abilities ?

i am pretty sure the least amount of comments regarding this topic i came across was saying. We need less energy efficiency, we want overall energy gain to be less and use more.

what do u think about the rest  (looking at ur reply you probably didnt even read it)

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by BloodyEy3

[akrid45]

Warframe will never be difficult without DE nerfing our power level, which most in the community don't clearly don't want. No amount of difficultly will stop frames like mesa, inaros, saryn, etc. Or weapons like Kuva bramma, Kuva nukor and ALOT of the other weapons killing 100+ enemies in less than 2 seconds. 

No amount of smarter AI or high damage enemies or whatever will help when the game is so unbalanced. 

[Corvid]

36 minutes ago, BloodyEy3 said:

so how come energy become less and less of a rare resource  ?

Power creep.

36 minutes ago, BloodyEy3 said:

why isnt there a huge revolution if noone likes to constatnly use all abilities ?

Is this really what you want to go on? Given the opportunity, players will optimise the fun out of any experience. They have proven time and time again in both this game and others that they cannot be trusted to reign themselves in, even if not doing so will make their play experience miserable.

[BloodyEy3]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb akrid45:

No amount of smarter AI or high damage enemies or whatever will help when the game is so unbalanced. 

i mean yes to some degree it could help. example bosses: invincible frames and certain parts you need to attack. overwork abusing mechanics. Or thralls (needs to get executed) --> could be implemented on alot of stronger enemies or they heal back to 50% then need to be killed again to die.

grineer maniacs need to be actually scary. when they pounce you have to hit right button to counter them.

i think warframe has also alot of body.type modifieres regarding dmg --> none besides "head" are used thought, becuase there is no need (also im pretty sure noone activly tries to head shot emies just a fun additional rng, or generall aim around head and spray and pray)

giving those types more relevance (cc enemy for a bit, give them permanent pernality till they are dead) --> for example are corpus helmets, pluto assasination (the armor stacks), could be implemented on alot of enemies with armor.

for corpus: why are they scientist not equiped with good armor ? giving them a suit (normal corpus health) thats -25% to impact puncture and slash and reduces status duration by 50% isnt to diffuclt.

infested: generally become immune to viral proc

ive no idea what happend to some combat features after melee 3.0 but implement parry again (block on right time staggers enemy = open for finsiher) --> well i guess this also is rip regards stances !! since every stance has now same combo (just diffrent effects) it makes every thing the same to execute so the stances that have best forced procs/ hitcounter or whatever. --> just killed any possiblity of diverstiy for the sake of simplicity, also makes it impossible to acutally implement any melee/ stance combo into combat. maybe at some point we get a constumable "own" stance that opens up stance for more complex combos (maybe something you get progression after performing the "finsiher combo" for the weapon you used at that time)

but yeah more health + shield value would help aswell as overworking those broken status types (slash + viral, corrsive + heat) --> would also hit all warframes that use them atm (equinox maim, saryn, gara)

 

[BloodyEy3]

vor 35 Minuten schrieb Corvid:

Power creep.

i am not saying it isnt, but persoanlly i think energy while its a problem its not up on priority.

what about abilites that reach 90% dmg metigation with <200 strength ? what about buffs that exceed 300% dmg, what about slash procs dealing true dmg bases on weapon dmg ?

the only time energy cost would affect anyone is equinox maim, saryn, (revenant ?), (i dont know of any warframes that constantly nuke everything besides them, specially in higher lvl missions) and maybe vauban (cc?)

most other warframe abilites are more powercreep in what they do not their ability cost --> those are mainly utility/supportive abilites that break game. (octavia, banshe, mirage) ---> more effected by duration/strength/range then efficiency

then again another factor to this is the weird scaling warframe has where only a selected few manage to keep dealing dmg because of the dmg type they deal, or their dmg scaling of enemy.

what about kuva bow nuking whole areas ? tonkor ? acceltra? what about melee still havign abudant range and being able to hit multiple enemies (without its dmg being reduced)

vor 35 Minuten schrieb Corvid:

Is this really what you want to go on? Given the opportunity, players will optimise the fun out of any experience. They have proven time and time again in both this game and others that they cannot be trusted to reign themselves in, even if not doing so will make their play experience miserable.

what am i going on about ? i am literally saying reduce everything. you only sugerpick whatever you like to keep ur narrative.

look at first page what ive wrote. overhaul everything all scaling. mods being flat (for each weapon type differnt value) increase basestats a bit for each forma/reactor/exilus (flat or %) --> weapons (base dmg, physical dmg mods) and warframe survivablity (hp, armor, shield value)

--> 4th ability lvl, through new "forma lvl varient"  (which is around the ability value of now lvl 3)

energy gain overall reduced (even highlighted again in previous comment)

new enemy types (+ reworked strong enemys/mini bosses, assasinationsquads) to slow down mindleslly hack and slash simulator.

revamp of all arcanes (so its either as specific as trickery --> strong effect) or "passive": like magus husk/vigor (trash effecitveness)

a new thought to this: change how reviving works and how often you can revive (give it a penality --> for example like interfernace static) also dieng should have more of a penality then a bit affinity --> 50% all resources (besides what u gained as rewards from mission progression) is lost !! --> would feel horrible in a grind/loot based game.

Arbitration (each person can only be revived like that once) --> has time to how long someone can stay dead. (more then 2min cant be revived --> fails mission and is extraced)

Edited February 23, 2020 by BloodyEy3

[Serafim_94]

1 час назад, BloodyEy3 сказал:

grineer maniacs need to be actually scary. when they pounce you have to hit right button to counter them.

Oh, so THAT'S what people demand when they ask for "better" mechanics. "Press F to pay respects". Brilliant.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

6 hours ago, 844448 said:

Spectralyst wants to know your location

They know my location and die when they see me. Easily 

[BloodyEy3]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb Serafim_94:

Oh, so THAT'S what people demand when they ask for "better" mechanics. "Press F to pay respects". Brilliant.

first of all: dont generlize it. its only mine and it was just an ideas, like everything. maybe take that maxed [narrow minded] from ur build.

any mechanic, is better then now. since now there is none. you mindlessly hold or smash 1 button to shoot and attack. there is no need to aim.

stance reworks made this even more so (before atleast you had to time the mouse pressing, which was different based on speed mods and stance mod, to get certain combos)

how do u know atm that a maniac was on you  ? right u just see the ash chassis drop and go "i guess i killed a maniac, while hacking through those 200 enemies that all got oneshot by 1 bramma arrow

Am 22.2.2020 um 15:02 schrieb Serafim_94:

You guys are all about armchair theoretics. You write one and the same nonsense about "better AI" or "difficult enemies" without thinking how it can ACTUALLY be implemented in an actual game. Most of the time - it can't, or really shouldn't.

but u are also against bulletsponges. u advocate the nerf of most endgame equip (arcanes) and leverage of base warframe survivabiliy (is that what you wanted to say with ur inaros sentence?) with adjustments of enemy scaling (which is affected by alot of things, hp, armor, shield + our dmg (and how some dmg types work)

you bring up nullifiers as a fan favoruite, which mechanic is theoreticly (shoot small drone to pop shield, just that shield is often proctecting the drone) so its just shoot ur firerate modded secondary into it to popp it.

if the rediculous dmg is brought down to normal lvl with adjusted enemy durability some of the mechanics ingame could be actually be considered using. but why would u aim at sth specific when ur aoe cluster#*!% primary or 200 projectiles a second secondary  just kill everything anway (even through millions of armor) this should tell you maybe armor itself isnt really working as it should be.

you also asked how dmg could be balanced around inaros !! the maniac could be sth. the reason someone plays inaros is to facetank eveything (their brain activity is ~0%). 100% he gonna miss timer to pray respect to the great church for maniacs, so they will take their tribute themself (100% dead).

 

vor 38 Minuten schrieb Serafim_94:

so THAT'S what people demand when they ask for "better" mechanics.

while u are clearly not one of them. what are mechanics that could be added. i dont think anyone would disagree that adding mechanics would help diverstiy, difficulty, aswell as difficulty. I am not disagreeing that this is way more difficult to implement to add/implement to the game then changing numbers. Changing numbers is first priority, mechanics can be added with new enemy types (rework of factions, 1 at a time).

biggest problem for all those changes, or even talking about this whole topic: Warframe has no time for it!! It lives from constant content. So 90% of time invested is new content upgrade.

Now look at the scale of adjusting all numbers. (i think theyve been talking for ~3month +, that they just been working on enemey scaling --> hp, armor, shield) and its just  seems to be "playing around" with numbers atm. around PoE they talked 3+ month about shield gating --> scrabbed!, look at most "rework" trailsers and we get at the end.

i am pretty sure the most stuff is extremly simplified, changed (for sake of simplcity), or entirly scrabbed regarding mechanics. It always starts with an great idea/concept, but that whats implemented at the end is the absolutly dumbed down, simplified, and mainly completly useless mechanic (useless as, it doesnt provide more efficieny or makes stuff easier, just is there for the sake of "mechanic")

---> example parazon finiser... who uses that atm besides for thralls/lich. the amount of times a enemy survives with 25% hp in missions below 150 are close to 0%. you cant even make it happen if u want to, cause ur dmg is just too high. (its essentially a mechanic, you can choose what you get from it, but its so badly implementnet that you cant even use it, even if you want to)

more ideads

changes for weapons: aoe --> cant crit and dmg demishes over distance, therefore higher base dmg  (cc = factor how explosion dmg deminishes, cd =  general dmg amp, but less affective (easier to just lower all cd stat on such weapons then make value represent the dmg --> example: 1,3 = 130% dmg --> 50%cc = loses 50% dmg over its range, 75% cc = loses 25% dmg over its range)

melee: 1 swing can have max dmg (that is carried in the attack) if attack doesnt kill. dont deal dmg to other enemies (only it area (depending on combo/swing)--->example: swing from left to right (first enemy on left side survives hit, enemy to his right doesnt take dmg) this wouldnt count for range (range only makes it more likely that an enemy may surviva that hit as more enemy are hit which means its more likely a stronger unit is also struck)

or make it so that dmg is split between all targets hit, meaning range means you hit more enemies, but as you hit more enemies, each enemy is hit for less dmg.

[(PSN)Qjing]

Am 22.2.2020 um 16:12 schrieb LascarCapable:

I

Also, since we nerf the damage output of enemies a lot, then it would just mean that 90% DR or r. It's time to bring out the nerf hammer... And it shouldn't be that bad if it's done well, I promise.

If I wanted to see Nerf I would play any other game. see Bungie D.
I think Warframe has found its niche and how many really play the tough raids in other games. 0.5 percent to 2 percent

[Corvid]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Qjing said:

how many really play the tough raids in other games.

And this is relevant... how exactly?

Wanting the combat to not be braindead =/= Wanting everything to be uber tough all the time.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

25 minutes ago, BloodyEy3 said:

You guys are all about armchair theoretics. You write one and the same nonsense about "better AI" or "difficult enemies" without thinking how it can ACTUALLY be implemented in an actual game. Most of the time - it can't, or really shouldn't

Better ai can be it's des choice to add it in game. In regards to how or what type or such it's up to de as they have ignored and of not payed attention to alot of feedback given on this. 

Also nobody is trying to take your power fantasy away. We want difficulty you can opt in to. Why does everyone not see that

[(PSN)Qjing]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Corvid:

And this is relevant... how exactly?

Wanting the combat to not be braindead =/= Wanting everything to be uber tough all the time.

And how long will heavy content remain interesting? Everyone is looking for a way to make it trivial.
Think someone wants the hardcore rewards to be exclusive. so the hardcore player can say: look i am the best