Jump to content
Jade Shadows: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Mandatory Modding Fix


Grav_Starstrider
 Share

Recommended Posts

The biggest problem most people have with the "mandatory modding" issue is how they feel OVERWHELMINGLY pressured to use the weapon class's primary damage mod (Serration/Point Blank) and multishot mod (Split Chamber/Hell's Chamber), eating up 2/8, or a quarter, of their available damage mod slots. I don't think there's hardly a single weapon build that benefits more from dropping one of those two mods for something else. They're always the first two mods into the weapon for optimal DPS, and with things like Veil Railjack enemies packing ludicrous amounts of armor and health, or Kuva Floods, or Sortie level enemies, or Arbitrations, people are always pressured to perform with as much damage as they can.

Solution part 1: Turn "Multishot" into a proc equalizer, a mod that "makes the gun into a shotgun", without increasing the cumulative/average DPS, therefore drastically reducing the meta of "Damage multiplying Multishot multiplying Primed Elemental Damage", by just making a gun's performance more consistent.

Solution part 2: Turn "Damage" into a weapon's "Aura Slot". We already added Exilus to weapons, and are seeing builds creep up to 8 forma builds just to fit everything onto a weapon, and locking it into only a single configuration. Cosmetically, as well, this would greatly streamline and unify the Warframe Modding Experience.

ztxN2ss.png

VIsQfzo.png

Just make the current weapon modding screen match the current warframe modding screen, reduce the number of ranks and capacity of damage mods by a bit, and let the community have the damage for "free" to make up for the removed multishot dps. By relegating Damage to it's own dedicated slot, and making multishot less mandatory by not being DPS multiplicative, many weapons will be able to work with one or two less forma, AND have two more free slots to customize how they'd prefer.

A variant of this could also apply to melee modding as well. We all loved (I hope/think) the experience of making our weapons stronger by ranking up Serration and Hornet Strike. But it has gotten old, having to apply Damage and Multishot to EVERY build, eating up a quarter of our options. Please give us back some fun variety, with less meta, while providing more consistency to your game.

Love all that you do, I've rarely seen you guys make steps in a wrong direction, imo ❤️ Best of luck, DE

 

(Also to other forum users: Don't whine and complain about how there'd just be a "new meta", or about "nerfing multishot". Damage and multishot are put on EVERYTHING. They're redundant. They're assumed. This change would be healthy. And maybe DE could write a script to bestow any multishot-riven owners with 3.5k kuva per riven to at least give you 1 shot at rerolling away from a then-nerfed multishot value. This would be healthy and fun for 90% of people, imo, to have 8 actual modding options instead of only 6. [plus the exilus slot, but that barely counts])

 

Lemme know your thoughts, guys, as long as it's constructive and not a big ol' "REEEEE MY MULTISHOT NERF, META IS ALL! META WILL ALWAYS BE!!!"

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

the biggest problem that people have with Weapon Modding is that they think if they deleted a few Mods that they wouldn't still be using a nearly identical Mod setup on every Weapon still anyways.
which they would.

"remove all Multi-Shot and general Base Damage Mods from the game or make them innate" - and now everyone Equips more Elemental Mods and more Crit Mods, on all Weapons. still the same complaint of using the same Mods in almost all possible cases, so now what.

you can try to footnote against this response all you want - it's still the truth. change for the sake of change but not caring whether the change actually solves the identified problem is otherwise known as a waste of time.
justifying changing something by identifying a problem is great, but if what one would change doesn't actually address that problem, it is not a good justification. doesn't mean you couldn't do it, but there would need to be a justification and if not that, then what.

 

Edit:
also when __ clicks Quote on me in a rush, and starts typing, they should reread my last two sentences again.

Edited by taiiat
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a difference between "Obviously you put critical damage mods on a critical-biased weapon (of which there are several options), and status on status-biased weapons (which still leaves you several status options)" and "literally every damn primary, secondary, and melee weapon uses these 1 or 2 mods without exception ever". So uhhhh.... Maybe don't literally exemplify my last statement of "META IS ALL! META WILL ALWAYS BE!!!!" and actually process that reducing the severity of the meta by effectively removing the most egregious pieces of, and enablers of, the meta, will actually go a long ways towards solving the problem that is the "meta". Yes. The meta tryhards will mathematically determine that nobody should ever use mods [X, Y, and Z]. I don't care about those meta tryhards. I want the people who feel like they're only one or two mods away from being able to have fun with non-meta mods [X, Y, and Z], to be given the chance to choose between those three. Instead of not getting the chance in the first place, because your effectiveness in the game will drop like a lead balloon if you don't equip Serration and Split Chamber.

It's my opinion that almost no mod should be useless and never-used. Mods should be "Modifications", things to optimize your gun to perform a specific purpose. It's boring as hell for that to only exclusively trend towards "biggest numbers possible" instead of actually fostering creative tactics and decisions. But it'd be more work for DE to pass over literally every single other mod in order to make them competitive with Serration and Split Chamber, than to simply rework how Serration and Split Chamber works.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

and actually process that reducing the severity of the meta by effectively removing the most egregious pieces of, and enablers of, the meta, will actually go a long ways towards solving the problem that is the "meta".

those Mods aren't used in 100% of cases now, rarities where one may get pushed out, and similarly, there are Weapons that don't have Crits or don't have use for more Status, which means they'd stack more Elemental Mods which at that point isn't any different, it's just looking at different words in the Slot.

making Mods compete with Multi-Shot and overall Damage isn't even the big hurdle, it's making them compete with everything else too. which so many Mods, just don't. this game also prefers to add new stuff than to touch anything already existing, so another avenue can and maybe will be making more and more conditional Mods so that you can feel like you're doing something different by putting different things into the Slot, and having the feeling of variety through that route. which isn't even necessarily a bad one, it's just an additive route rather than a subtractive route to the same hopeful goal.
as, if you had a conditional Mod that was better than __ but it's conditional, that's a choice too, isn't it. or you might even use both, depending on what the Weapon wants/needs and what you're currently going to shoot it against.

Edited by taiiat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

they could choose to go down the route of increasing weapon damage per level, with full damage achieved at 30, though this isn't really a perfect solution either, as it just encourages passive levelling and using affinity spots like Hydron. if there were an easy fix, we'd already have it by now.

Also most folks seem to miss the point that the progression in the game is primarily in your mods, not your weapons or warframes, though they are what are shiny and attention grabbing. Warframes, weapons, they come and go, but your mods are one-and-done(-ish, sometimes you want a spare copy or two of a few for flexibility sake, particularly corrupted mods).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why is using the same mod loadouts even a problem? If you go and look at almost any other game with custom character building you find the same pattern of slapping the same generic things into every build because they're effective; almost every game like this has its version of Serration, if not several. Especially when you look at the end-game type builds in these games you find that everything culminates into a handful of the best options and what we have with these "mandatory mods" is that exact build.

If anything the only issue with the modding system is that what little variety we do have between high-end builds isn't distinct enough from each other. i.e.: the only difference between crit-based Hunter Munitions, a hybrid Hunter Munitions + Viral, and pure status Corrosive + Heat builds is what damage types and color of the damage numbers you see.

But if this method of progression and building really is an issue then the only solution is to remove all possible options for players to choose from. As we would still have "mandatory" mods even if the system was reduced to choosing between one of two stats; no matter what there is always a most effective option.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, taiiat said:

the biggest problem that people have with Weapon Modding is that they think if they deleted a few Mods that they wouldn't still be using a nearly identical Mod setup on every Weapon still anyways.
which they would.

"remove all Multi-Shot and general Base Damage Mods from the game or make them innate" - and now everyone Equips more Elemental Mods and more Crit Mods, on all Weapons. still the same complaint of using the same Mods in almost all possible cases, so now what.

you can try to footnote against this response all you want - it's still the truth. change for the sake of change but not caring whether the change actually solves the identified problem is otherwise known as a waste of time.
justifying changing something by identifying a problem is great, but if what one would change doesn't actually address that problem, it is not a good justification. doesn't mean you couldn't do it, but there would need to be a justification and if not that, then what.

 

Edit:
also when __ clicks Quote on me in a rush, and starts typing, they should reread my last two sentences again.

Hallelujah! 

There are way too many people who think that "change is good" is a universal rule, when it's not. Change can only be good if it's a good change. Bad changes, made just for the sake of changing something, are still bad. 

The real problem with mandatory mods is that people call them "mandatory". Nobody calls the faction specific mods "mandatory" despite the fact that they are crazy powerful, and our configs make it so that we can easily equip one on each for easy swapping. 

No matter what they change about the game, it's inevitable that some combination of mods will work best on a given weapon. Eventually everyone will gravitate to a similar combination, especially given the nature of the internet and how people search for information that others have shared. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No matter what they change about the game, it's inevitable that some combination of mods will work best on a given weapon.

it's not about that 'there is a best', but that looking to make a change for a potential better okay, but will the change actually do that, is it justified.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Basically you'd have to massively rework how most of the actively used mods work.

Now if for example a weapon's base damage was inviolate and un-changeable...

If Serration and company were a percent extra damage pool. If no elemental mods are equipped it just multiplies the base damage of the weapon out.

If Elemental mods *specifically* pulled from the extra damage pool of Serration and company exclusively. Meaning that the damage is capped, but what is changing is the types of damage that pool is doing. So that the 220% Hornet Strike with a 90%, and two 60/60 mods basically reads as deal 150% of this combined element, 60% of this other element, and the remaining 10% of the bonus pool is baseline damage typed.

If the percentage physical mods worked by making the bonus pool change the same new way elemental worked... such that one actually could go super heavy slash focus on a gun that didn't even have slash in the first place.

Go ahead and just split the damage between bullets with split chamber and company. Proc/Crit equalization without extra damage. Main benefit for guns being being more procs dealt or a more reliable crit curve.

Yes Serration is still core. But Elemental becomes a lot more optional in the face of being able to slash stack and other options. Split Chamber becomes semi-optional in that it would be still one of the best things to slot on a gun with unreliable crit or that is heavily status focused.

You'd basically just cut damage bloat an absurd amount for standard builds in general since most weapons can only get 3-5x times base damage outside frame modifiers... which also means that frame based buffs get a *lot* more valuable. Chroma, Rhino, Banshee, etc would all be rather meta for being extra scaling options. So the devs would probably also need a bit of work over there to bring those things a little more in line with the lowered damage potential.

Then massively downscale enemy progression curves. Without quadratic damage progression in the weapons you can *cap* enemy armor and mostly rely on health scaling. It also means big hit frame damage powers actually feel powerful again even if they aren't an always on global nuke. Because frankly the only powers that feel powerful an hour deep into content are those with percentage scaling (hello Saryn), explicitly avoid interaction like prowl (Ivara), or just chain CC things unto oblivion.

Then go back and start adding Syndicate weapon mods again. Those damage bonuses, unique quirks, and syndicate procs look a bit more appetizing with revised scaling no? Definitely a more interesting way of giving under-performing weapons a leg up. Also a reasonable way of keeping demand in the market. Yes some vets would be cashing out lightning fast. But if you end up with *dozens* of such mods per syndicate you'll have a deep pool of trade options.

And as a final thing. Base damage is inviolate. A riven with a negative of a base damage type would *remove* that damage type from the extra damage pool. Meaning shifting damage procs is a thing but outright total removal is a no-no. The flipside is that base elemental damage of a weapon *also* stays put so you could get amusing things like Radiation + Heat. It also means rivens with negative total damage just reduce the bonus pool. But they cannot reduce the base damage of a weapon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, CRCGamer said:

-Snip-

I was gonna write something just like what you said. 

And I am in agreement not just the split chamber and serration, but also elemental mods need to be looked at to normalise the multipliers. 

 

Edited by 0_The_F00l
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't mind if base damage increased off the mod grid somehow. Or base damage was all different amalgam mods instead.

And stuff like multishot and crit chance and crit damage all became attached to more situational mods like the acolyte mods.

  • crit chance while sliding
  • crit chance while in the air
  • crit chance while aiming
  • crit chance after headshot

But no just crit chance all the time anymore.

That way you mod depending on how you are going to play. No more one set of mods for every weapon.

Edited by Redfeather75
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's also an option, making mods back into "modifications" rather than multiplicatively compounding additive damage. I still feel like a bunch of you are missing the point with just *how* overwhelmingly mandatory Serration and Split Chamber is on 99.9% of weapons though. It's so commonly used that there basically *is* no good build option for anything that doesn't include them. That's an *IRONCLAD* modding meta. Any shift towards even marginally greater amount of player choice and agency is improved over having 2 presumed slots. You guys always, inevitably, as I originally predicted, and as observed everywhere, claim "a meta will develop", but that's only among the meta tryhards. Some people actually like trying fun gimmicks that are less optimal. They just wish it was 80% as effective as the meta instead of 10%.

 I think there is a solution that can incorporate most of our ideas though.

Make the Aura-like Damage slot. Make Serration into a Bonus Damage Pool. Have the weapon rank cut the Bonus Damage Pool by around 3% per rank down from 30, or however you wanna calculate it (like instead having a lower starting number, boost per rank by percentage, makes Paracesis, Kuva, and other 30+ rank weapons more desirable). Make Elemental Damage be a conversion of the bonus damage pool (balance/change numbers so that we aren't stealing ALL of the IPS or initial elemental damage from the weapon). Make Multishot into a crit/stat proc equalizer and shotgun-ification mod instead of additive damage.

This would cumulatively allow us to keep the main damage mods relevant (sub-mods like augur pact and corrupted damage mods would need review or rework), while introducing the fairly widely fan-considered and DE-considered weapon leveling system, while reducing or practically eliminating the "have raw damage and multishot on everything, and usually add as much elemental damage as possible as well" meta that appears everywhere. Converting damage just means you're choosing damage bonuses against different faction units, and the proc's effects, rather than throwing elemental damage on for the purpose of compounding and multiplying the damage by ludicrous factors. The bonus capacity from the Damage Slot helps save us from the "every slot needs a polarity, locking us to practically only 1 build" issue, and the movement of the Damage mod to a dedicated slot and the rework of Multishot frees up 2 mod slots on lots of weapons. Also, makes the modding screen and the sensation of ranking up consistent across Warframes and their Weapons.

Y'all are saying "change for change's sake is bad", but these all read like positives to me. Only major downside is some work to unstring spaghetti code and get it working like this, and to update/rebalance things that this directly or indirectly affects.

Edited by Grav_Starstrider
added note about modding screen consistency, and caveat.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...