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@DE Umbra's Sentience NEEDS TO GO


Yunjuwo
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Yet another bug today for the umpteenth time regarding this punishing, pathetic excuse for a passive. I'm getting tired of posting the same BS over and over again so I'm not even going to say what happened, I'm just going to state the obvious: me went into long mission, umbra big dumb, me lose everything. Again.

Umbra' Sentience only helps in things that even a child could take care of and even then does a piss poor job at it, is a detriment in all other cases which tends to be 99% of the time, has a fetish with Slash Dashing off of cliffs the moment you jump out into Operator form, and causes so many bugs that I've lost count. Sentience was never good, never is, never will be.

Please DE, it's such an easy fix; remove Sentience and just give Umbra that idle invulnerable state that all warframes have. I love your game but my god this singular, same, repetitive crap is literally driving me insane.
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(added from second post)

I'm not saying that I have a problem with his passive not being incredibly powerful. I'm saying I have a problem with his passive creating those problems in the first place.

Yeah, it's lore, and the passive fits matches the lore which is cool and all, but does that really justify all these issues with the passive in actual gameplay? Such as:

  • You keeping the damage that Umbra specter suffered when you transfer back into Umbra(something DE claimed was fixed but wasn't)
  • Appropriate invulnerability not applying to you when using/transfering out of Umbra specifically(something DE claimed was fixed but wasn't)
  • Umbra specifically losing all buffs from other warframes and aura mods when transfering out and back in
  • Rapidly transfering in and out repeatedly can disable your abilities(sometimes permanently until death)
  • Umbra deactivating Exalted Blade when transfering out(RIP your entire combo counter)
  • Umbra shooting literally everything and ruining spy vaults/stealth kills because it's just a mindless specter
  • Umbra slashing literally everything and ruining measured armor stripping via Shattering Impact because it's just a mindless specter(nice "sentience" umbra lol)
  • Umbra killing you even in void mode, every NPC, and everyone else nearby when radiation proc'd

I'm betting I'm missing a few more problems too but these aren't even counting the numerous bugs I've encountered where every single one forced me to abort the mission, and iirc even on one occasion to alt f4 because esc wasn't working. Like Umbra specter falling endlessly through the map then prompty forcing me to as well, or slash dashing through a wall and making impossible for me to transfer back until I was killed which got me stuck in the wall, or umbra specter dying and upon transfering back I was stuck in the idle pose unable to use any weapons, abilities, or gear. And I just happened to be unlucky enough that all these and more, always occurred after 30-60min already into a mission, so I lost A LOT of loot back then(still do).

There's literally been so many of these bugs that I willingly chose to forget/not write most of these down, for the sake of my mental health.

I know a lot of people actually like the passive, but as someone who used excal everyday prior umbra, then umbra everyday after his release, I can confidently say that Umbra's Sentience is just a thorn in the upgraded excal that is Excalibur Umbra. Nothing Umbra specter does is great in anything that you can already and always do better, you can't even command Hold Position like regular specters, and even DE themselves stated when reworking Vauban that they did not want to give Vauban turrets because it incentives afk play which is something they want to avoid in the game as a whole, but in this case Umbra is literally a walking turret.

Functionally(lmfao "function"...), it doesn't belong in the game. Thematically, even DE indirectly says it shouldn't be in the game. Its only redeeming factor is that it fits aesthetically, which brings me to final--admittedly lighthearted--point. It's fun for fashion frame, makes for nice pics, but that's not enough to save it sadly.

Edited by Yun_Woo-Seok
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21 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

no, you really need to explain this. because it seems like you messed up and are blaming umbra somehow.

OP isn't very specific, but...

22 hours ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

has a fetish with Slash Dashing off of cliffs the moment you jump out into Operator form

If the player's Operator "dies", the player is transferred back to the Warframe. If the Warframe is out-of-bounds at that time, that could cause issues like getting stuck in a loop of repeated falling. Maybe that's the kind of thing the OP is experiencing?

IDK about removing his autonomy, but Umbra definitely shouldn't be putting himself out-of-bounds.

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On 2020-02-23 at 2:41 AM, GerberaOverture said:

take some time to realize that it doesnt have to be incredibly powerful and useful

its a LORE thing

I'm not saying that I have a problem with his passive not being incredibly powerful. I'm saying I have a problem with his passive creating those problems in the first place.

Yeah, it's lore, and the passive fits matches the lore which is cool and all, but does that really justify all these issues with the passive in actual gameplay? Such as:

  • You keeping the damage that Umbra specter suffered when you transfer back into Umbra(something DE claimed was fixed but wasn't)
  • Appropriate invulnerability not applying to you when using/transfering out of Umbra specifically(something DE claimed was fixed but wasn't)
  • Umbra specifically losing all buffs from other warframes and aura mods when transfering out and back in
  • Rapidly transfering in and out repeatedly can disable your abilities(sometimes permanently until death)
  • Umbra deactivating Exalted Blade when transfering out(RIP your entire combo counter)
  • Umbra shooting literally everything and ruining spy vaults/stealth kills because it's just a mindless specter
  • Umbra slashing literally everything and ruining measured armor stripping via Shattering Impact because it's just a mindless specter(nice "sentience" umbra lol)
  • Umbra killing you even in void mode, every NPC, and everyone else nearby when radiation proc'd

I'm betting I'm missing a few more problems too but these aren't even counting the numerous bugs I've encountered where every single one forced me to abort the mission, and iirc even on one occasion to alt f4 because esc wasn't working. Like Umbra specter falling endlessly through the map then prompty forcing me to as well, or slash dashing through a wall and making impossible for me to transfer back until I was killed which got me stuck in the wall, or umbra specter dying and upon transfering back I was stuck in the idle pose unable to use any weapons, abilities, or gear. And I just happened to be unlucky enough that all these and more, always occurred after 30-60min already into a mission, so I lost A LOT of loot back then(still do).

There's literally been so many of these bugs that I willingly chose to forget/not write most of these down, for the sake of my mental health.

I know a lot of people actually like the passive, but as someone who used excal everyday prior umbra, then umbra everyday after his release, I can confidently say that Umbra's Sentience is just a thorn in the upgraded excal that is Excalibur Umbra. Nothing Umbra specter does is great in anything that you can already and always do better, you can't even command Hold Position like regular specters, and even DE themselves stated when reworking Vauban that they did not want to give Vauban turrets because it incentives afk play which is something they want to avoid in the game as a whole, but in this case Umbra is literally a walking turret.

Functionally(lmfao "function"...), it doesn't belong in the game. Thematically, even DE indirectly says it shouldn't be in the game. Its only redeeming factor is that it fits aesthetically, which brings me to final--admittedly lighthearted--point. It's fun for fashion frame, makes for nice pics, but that's not enough to save it sadly.

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  • 3 weeks later...

In hindsight, I think the most crucial reason here is Exalted Blade being deactivated. There's a lot of fun combos that you can do with warframe abilities and operator arcanes, and yet we have to pay the price of 25 energy plus our entire combo counter whenever go into operator mode with Umbra specifically.

The extra armor and energy are reasons enough to use Excalibur Umbra over Excalibur. Sentient resistance stripping? An additional thing, cool, I'll take it. But Umbra's Sentience is such an unnecessary nerf that only exists for the sake of lore, and it's just a complete letdown whenever I go into operator mode.

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I think you're entirely wrong. Umbra is a frame that I use specifically because of the independence from my Operator. It's prone to causing bugs, sure, but that's a spaghetti problem and not a problem with the mechanic itself. Other than the EB issue (why is this a thing in the age of infinite free Wukong clone) and invulnerability bugs (invulnerability is very buggy in general anyway), I like Umbra the way he is.

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I feel like one "simple", or at least straightforward, fix for some of these problems could be to make a third entity. In that scheme, there's the same invulnerable Warframe at the point of Transference, just like any other Warframe, but this one is removed from play (not visible, not tangible - basically doesn't exist other than to save the player's state at Transference: abilities, position, etc.). On Transference, the spectre gets spawned, but the spectre doesn't actually have anything to do with Transference, because all the Transference stuff is tied to the invisible Warframe. There's probably other finer details that can be hashed out on implementation, like the health of the Warframe when the spectre goes down.

Other issues seem more global to all spectres and should probably be addressed regardless of Umbra sentience. E.g. the rad proc and the spy vault things. (Though Wukong's Twin, IIRC, doesn't set off spy vaults, so maybe that's been fixed? I don't play Umbra, IDK. Same for Radiation.)

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On 2020-02-27 at 11:53 PM, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

You keeping the damage that Umbra specter suffered

Thats how operator mode should be working for all warframes if you ask me.

 

Operator mode is overpowered as idk what. Magus repair gives 25% health regen to all warframes like wtf? Free invincibility and health regen in the middle of a fight? 

Pause FREE INVINCIBILITY??? What is balance?

Edited by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII
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On 2020-02-23 at 11:30 AM, Crusher4881 said:

Or, they could just make it so that he has a separate healthbar in independent mode. If that healthbar runs out he goes back to stationary invulnerable mode with no damage sustained, meaning that you don't transference back to him at low health.

This is how it's supposed to work already, but it doesn't always. I rarely transfer back in at lower health than I left, but I've seen it happen. The biggest issue with the spectre mode is it cancels EB, and dispels most buffs you had. Past that, there's also a bug if the spectre dies to a DoT applied before, or just as you transference out, that causes you to be put in a no clip state unable to use abilities when you transfer back. I've had to abort several lich missions because of bleeds caused by ramparts over this.

Edited by nooneyouknow13
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1 hour ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Thats how operator mode should be working for all warframes if you ask me.

 

Operator mode is overpowered as idk what. Magus repair gives 25% health regen to all warframes like wtf? Free invincibility and health regen in the middle of a fight? 

Pause FREE INVINCIBILITY??? What is balance?

Umbra suffers it worse because 1) with every other frame you can just park your frame exactly where you want and know where it is, whereas Umbra goes wherever and gets shot more than he actually shoots and 2) he doesn't have the 90% damage reduction that other frames get when they're vulnerable upon hopping out into your operator. And yes, Magus Repair is one of the best operator arcanes out there, but I you're confusing Magus Repair as something better than it actually is. When using Umbra, Magus Repair/Magus Elevate aren't a choice, they're a must, simply to patch up the faults of this warframe that you have no control over. With Umbra they're no longer powerful arcanes--they're band aids, and that just feel wrong in a game like warframe where build freedom is encouraged.

With Umbra, hopping out into operator mode, is a big risk, and something that I only do for short periods of time because there's no telling when I could suddenly drop from 1070 warframe health to 10 health the moment I go back into Umbra.

Everyone here seems to really enjoy Umbra for some reason, so if Umbra has to stay I'd want at least these changes to happen.

  • Umbra gets the 90% damage reduction that all other warframes get upon transferring out of them.
  • Your health value is saved separately upon leaving Umbra so that when you go back into Umbra--whether Umbra now has less health from going off on his own and getting shot at, or more health from being healed--you keep your exact amount of health that you had when you left.
  • If you had Exalted Blade active upon leaving Umbra, Umbra uses that instead of putting away Exalted Blade(we know the technology to make this happen already exists because he literally fights you with Exalted Blade in his quest).
  • Umbra's Slash Dash is fixed to actually lock-on and hit enemies OR change it so that he performs a Rhino Charge instead, like Stalker's Slash Dash being traded out for Shadow Stalker's Rhino Charge.
  • You have no choice but to deploy Umbra when using operator, so at least give some control back into the player's hands and make it possible to order Umbra to Follow or Hold Position like other deployable specters.
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As described in the lore, the Operator mode is "your most powerful but also most vulnerable" state.
I've yet to feel the "vulnerable". And I'd like to feel it.

On 2020-03-21 at 2:36 AM, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

Your health value is saved separately upon leaving Umbra so that when you go back into Umbra--whether Umbra now has less health from going off on his own and getting shot at, or more health from being healed--you keep your exact amount of health that you had when you left.

Wouldn't make much sense, but probably wouldn't bother anyone either. That's a good solution to the problem.

On 2020-03-21 at 2:36 AM, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

You have no choice but to deploy Umbra when using operator, so at least give some control back into the player's hands and make it possible to order Umbra to Follow or Hold Position like other deployable specters.

Hell no! Without you overwriting its will, it's on a rampage. I like that.

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16 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

If you don't like Excal Umbra because of the one thing that makes Umbra different...

Then...

Don't use Excal Umbra, simple as that.

Problem is, the differences in EHP and Energy Capacity render base Excal entirely obsolete and almost unusable compared to Umbra. If they had the same stats, it wouldn't be an issue.

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1 hour ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

Problem is, the differences in EHP and Energy Capacity render base Excal entirely obsolete and almost unusable compared to Umbra. If they had the same stats, it wouldn't be an issue.

If base Excal is entirely obsolete then Umbra isn't going to be much better, sounds like you just want the better stats without Umbra's passive.

I'm an Ivara main, If Ivara Prime had a different passive that I didn't like or I really didn't like her new appearance (as some Ivara mains don't) I'd stay with non-Prime Ivara. The Prime having a faster speed (affects prowl speed too; due to it being base speed), armor, energy, and shields is nice but it doesn't make non-Prime Ivara "obsolete". If I hated Prime-Ivara I'd stick to regular Ivara.

Ironically if Ivara wasn't a frame in Warframe I'd be using regular Excal as he's closest to my play style. There's nothing wrong with him and being upset over a few point difference in a stat block is a little ridiculous.

 

I get you want to pile on mods and get the highest number possible, but you're demanding a change to take away something unique as Umbra.

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43 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

If base Excal is entirely obsolete then Umbra isn't going to be much better, sounds like you just want the better stats without Umbra's passive.

I'm an Ivara main, If Ivara Prime had a different passive that I didn't like or I really didn't like her new appearance (as some Ivara mains don't) I'd stay with non-Prime Ivara. The Prime having a faster speed (affects prowl speed too; due to it being base speed), armor, energy, and shields is nice but it doesn't make non-Prime Ivara "obsolete". If I hated Prime-Ivara I'd stick to regular Ivara.

Ironically if Ivara wasn't a frame in Warframe I'd be using regular Excal as he's closest to my play style. There's nothing wrong with him and being upset over a few point difference in a stat block is a little ridiculous.

 

I get you want to pile on mods and get the highest number possible, but you're demanding a change to take away something unique as Umbra.

Is something unique worth keeping when it's horribly bugged years after release and often forces you to abort missions because of said bug? If I could just choose to toggle it off, it'd be fine. Umbra has potentially thousands more eHP than Excalibur due to higher armor and energy. That's a huge difference in higher level content. It'd be different if the prime upgrades were say, shields and sprint speed, but it's both armor and energy, and base Excal's energy pool is the lowest possible.

And yes, Ivara Prime does in fact make Ivara obsolete. Every prime makes their base version something you only use until you get the upgrade. Since Excal Prime is never coming back, Umbra was meant to be that for Excal, but his buggy passive causes a hole host of issues.

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1 minute ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

Is something unique worth keeping when it's horribly bugged years after release and often forces you to abort missions because of said bug?

A) Yes

B) I've never had a debilitating bug as Umbra. Not once have I had to abort mission because of a bug Umbra caused.

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8 minutes ago, Iamabearlulz said:

A) Yes

B) I've never had a debilitating bug as Umbra. Not once have I had to abort mission because of a bug Umbra caused.

I have to on at least a weekly basis. If Umbra's spectre mode dies to a damage over time effect that's applied before or as you transference out, transference in will put you into an invulnerable no clip state unable to use abilities or weapons almost every time. With the sheer amount of bleeds put out vs high level grineer during lich hunt mission - especially ramparts - the only way to completely avoid the bug is to simply never use your operator at all. Which is horrifically limiting.

Past that, there's a good chance if you transference out with EB running, the game tries to put umbra into the 90% damage reduction state other frames have during transference with active skills, which is what causes damage to umbra's spectre mode to carry back to the frame and can kill you. This despite the fact he immediately deactivates EB.

I don't see how a gimmicky spectre mode that is basically useless outside of giving him a sniper rifle and standing around in operator mode in the index is worth having this, with no way at all to opt out of it.

Edit: I'm really curious how much mission time you have on Umbra, to have never seen any of his spectre form related bugs. I have 212 in mission hours on Umbra, and as I said, I see the bugs at least once a week.

Edited by nooneyouknow13
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9 minutes ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

And yes, Ivara Prime does in fact make Ivara obsolete. Every prime makes their base version something you only use until you get the upgrade.

Wow...

Things can have different numbers, it's ok. I want to feel angry over it, but I just feel sad for you.

If this is the best argument you have then I don't think there's much to fear, the game isn't going to change just because you're upset that 2 frames that carry the same name have different stats.

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12 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

Wow...

Things can have different numbers, it's ok. I want to feel angry over it, but I just feel sad for you.

If this is the best argument you have then I don't think there's much to fear, the game isn't going to change just because you're upset that 2 frames that carry the same name have different stats.

Yeah, and one of those frames has bigger numbers than the other. You can even use the base Ivara skin on the prime if you like playing base Ivara. There is literally no reason to use base Ivara over her prime (unless you really don't like the celestial stealth effect on the prime). That doesn't mean base Ivara is useless, just inferior in every way to the prime.

Edited by Noble_Cactus
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17 hours ago, Uthael said:

As described in the lore, the Operator mode is "your most powerful but also most vulnerable" state.
I've yet to feel the "vulnerable". And I'd like to feel it.

Wouldn't make much sense, but probably wouldn't bother anyone either. That's a good solution to the problem.

Hell no! Without you overwriting its will, it's on a rampage. I like that.

And as I've said multiple times already, lore shouldn't be an excuse for frustrating gameplay. This is one of those rare instance in the game where you have absolutely no control in utilization, and also no control in it's deployment. "If you don't like Umbra, just don't go into operator" doesn't work because I really like Excalibur Umbra for what it represents at face value: just a better Excalibur. And of course I'm going to use operator mode after spending all my time and effort unlocking all the focus schools' waybounds and skills. Even if I hadn't the game has lots of content where operator mode is a must. So because I like this warframe, and also because operator mode is virtually/actually required, I'm the slice of the pie that is required to suffer? That's ridiculous. And what's wrong with just giving us the option to Hold Position? Follow would have it do exactly the same thing that it does right now; this would be just another additional thing for Umbra to use(and not forced to use). Unless of course your reasoning here is again "lore", which is a little selfish towards anyone like me who'd prefer to use Hold Position.

15 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

If you don't like Excal Umbra because of the one thing that makes Umbra different...

Then...

Don't use Excal Umbra, simple as that.

Higher armor, higher energy, and also radial howl stripping sentient resistance. That's not just one thing. That's multiple things. Multiple things of which I enjoy wholeheartedly, except for the Sentience passive. Why? Because these other things are just bigger numbers, and an additional thing that does not hinder the base ability in any way. You could say the same for Umbra's Sentience, sure, except you can't because of all the reasons I listed in this forum post, alone. This isn't my first time running into the same old Umbra bugs that cost me the entire mission and its rewards, this isn't my first post regarding this problem, and I'm only one of many others that want to love Excalibur Umbra if only his Sentience passive was removed/better.

12 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

A) Yes

B) I've never had a debilitating bug as Umbra. Not once have I had to abort mission because of a bug Umbra caused.

Good for you but please explain to the people that DO suffer frequent Umbra bugs: What warrants keeping a unique thing on something they like, when it's nothing more than a hindrance?

12 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

Wow...

Things can have different numbers, it's ok. I want to feel angry over it, but I just feel sad for you.

If this is the best argument you have then I don't think there's much to fear, the game isn't going to change just because you're upset that 2 frames that carry the same name have different stats.

These aren't just different numbers, they're smaller, weaker numbers. I've put in the time and the work, so why is it "ok" to resort to a strictly weaker-in-every-way version of a warframe when a stronger version is available, and also when that's literally never the case for every other warframe in the game.

Excalibur. Excalibur Umbra.

225 armor, 100 energy. 300 armor, 150 energy, AND sentient resistance stripping.

These are all things that say "hey player, we acknowledge your achievements and want to reward you with this new, stronger warframe, please use it!". Statistically, everything about Umbra is just better. Aesthetically, you can remove his Umbra things if you like the looks of default Excalibur better, which is great because it stresses player choice. Umbra's Sentience on the other hand, is the reason for this forums post's existence. Not because I'm "upset that 2 frames that carry the same name have different stats", but because 1 of those frames with a better name, better stats, and better incentives to use overall, comes with(whether you like it or not) an additional thing that at first glance seems like a good, but is a bad because of the poor design choices and bugs that weigh it down.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not asking for an insane 300% damage boost, cycling commands like protect and heal, or the ability to prioritize a target for 2x damage. These are QoL changes I'm suggesting, despite the fact that it's better to simply remove the passive altogether. Changes that will only help improve the gameplay experience for both those that enjoy the current Umbra's Sentience passive and those that are suffering from it, and I've no idea why everyone seems so intent on defending this clearly broken mechanic as if it's the best thing since sliced bread.

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4 hours ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

despite the fact that it's better to simply remove the passive altogether

I disagree. The passive is what makes him Umbra and not Excalibur Prime 2: Broken Promises Boogaloo. It's also very enjoyable to play with.

 

4 hours ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

Good for you but please explain to the people that DO suffer frequent Umbra bugs: What warrants keeping a unique thing on something they like, when it's nothing more than a hindrance?

You like Excalibur, not Umbra. I don't consider it a hindrance. If you want to play with Excalibur without that passive, a frame exists to let you do that.

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5 hours ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

Umbra's Sentience on the other hand, is the reason for this forums post's existence. Not because I'm "upset that 2 frames that carry the same name have different stats", but because 1 of those frames with a better name, better stats, and better incentives to use overall, comes with(whether you like it or not) an additional thing that at first glance seems like a good, but is a bad because of the poor design choices and bugs that weigh it down.

Don't like the extra stuff on Umbra? Don't use it.

There's no reason of stripping Umbra of something that makes him unique so that you can run around with a better non-Umbra Excal.

It's not "poor design choices", you just don't like the design and are upset because it has better stats. Don't like what Umbra is? Don't use him. It's simple as that, you're not forced to use him in anyway and demanding sentience be removed is demanding that another frame be trashed because you like it's numbers better.

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