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Can Zephyr/Nezha get a ON/OFF toggle on their passives?


Goldenrice
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Interesting... It's been discussed a lot, but personally I would never do that to either.

Why? Because it makes you play differently. There's different movement mechanics, and adapting your play to them is something that every game should have at least one or two examples of in its general make-up.

Having every frame perform exactly the same when they clearly aren't is straight up bad game design and I would rather see this kind of function expanded than have the few examples of it capable of being removed.

Now Nezha, I can kind of understand, because if you're a person that's used to using slides to accelerate it can seem a little much and if you aren't using animation cancellers like Melee you can end up where you don't want to be.

But Zephyr literally gets 50% efficiency on her 1 and 2 from being in the air, so the low gravity is there to help that. Again, you have to use animation cancellers like melee or her Dive Bomb (if you're desperate) to get down sometimes, but what it really boils down to is adapting your timing. A Zephyr player really never needs to get stuck in the air, above doors or similar, they just have to jump earlier in the room to ensure that their extended air time brings them down in the same place that another frame's air time would.

But the biggest thing for me about both of these is that, if you get used to them and know how to use them, literally figure out routes through rooms that other frames literally can't take because Zephyr can float over obstacles while Nezha can take the outside of turns faster, these frames are far more mobile and travel across a map far faster than all but the banned Drift Frames.

I would rather see more frames with movement changes, like expanding Rhino's Heavy Landing passive to include things like a slower sprint acceleration, but then knocking down enemies similar to Gauss once he's going. Have Wukong shift to a loping gate when he's at full speed that makes him go faster in a straight line, slide more, but then have bursts of speed by pushing off walls. More things that should inconvenience us, but make us faster if we know how to use them.

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11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's been discussed a lot, but personally I would never do that to either.

Why? Because it makes you play differently. There's different movement mechanics, and adapting your play to them is something that every game should have at least one or two examples of in its general make-up.

That's the way I feel about it too.  And that many players have a tendency to short change themselves out of longer term enjoyment if they have the option to simply switch atypical mechanics off.

And yet...  It does seem a bit of a gap that there's no mods to increase gravity or friction.  I could see corrupted exilus mods like +cc resistance \ +gravity or +move speed \ +friction maybe.   Mods that can be used to counteract passives and have another effect on top.

Anyway, addressing this through the modding system seems more elegant to me than adding toggles.

Edited by Tiltskillet
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3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Interesting... It's been discussed a lot, but personally I would never do that to either.

Why? Because it makes you play differently. There's different movement mechanics, and adapting your play to them is something that every game should have at least one or two examples of in its general make-up.

Having every frame perform exactly the same when they clearly aren't is straight up bad game design and I would rather see this kind of function expanded than have the few examples of it capable of being removed.

Now Nezha, I can kind of understand, because if you're a person that's used to using slides to accelerate it can seem a little much and if you aren't using animation cancellers like Melee you can end up where you don't want to be.

But Zephyr literally gets 50% efficiency on her 1 and 2 from being in the air, so the low gravity is there to help that. Again, you have to use animation cancellers like melee or her Dive Bomb (if you're desperate) to get down sometimes, but what it really boils down to is adapting your timing. A Zephyr player really never needs to get stuck in the air, above doors or similar, they just have to jump earlier in the room to ensure that their extended air time brings them down in the same place that another frame's air time would.

But the biggest thing for me about both of these is that, if you get used to them and know how to use them, literally figure out routes through rooms that other frames literally can't take because Zephyr can float over obstacles while Nezha can take the outside of turns faster, these frames are far more mobile and travel across a map far faster than all but the banned Drift Frames.

I would rather see more frames with movement changes, like expanding Rhino's Heavy Landing passive to include things like a slower sprint acceleration, but then knocking down enemies similar to Gauss once he's going. Have Wukong shift to a loping gate when he's at full speed that makes him go faster in a straight line, slide more, but then have bursts of speed by pushing off walls. More things that should inconvenience us, but make us faster if we know how to use them.

Are there other warframe passives that force you to play around them?

I don't think asking to make them toggleable is asking for to much.

I also feel like the "makes you play differently" argument kinda go against what warframe is about, no?

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28 minutes ago, Goldenrice said:

Are there other warframe passives that force you to play around them?

A couple, Ivara slows down in Prowl and forces you into a particular movement pattern so you don't break stealth while Titania has Razorwing mode and forces you into an entirely different method of movement. I feel that Gauss and Volt also count to a certain degree, with their speed making you far more actively cross distances, look for direct routes or straight lines, but without their very short abilities they're completely normal mobility wise. And I feel that's a loss. I want there to be more.

28 minutes ago, Goldenrice said:

I also feel like the "makes you play differently" argument kinda go against what warframe is about, no?

You mean the game where they have deliberately implemented over 40 different ways to play the game, 18 different tile sets to play it on, and are increasing the number of game modes to play year on year, having this humungous emphasis on variety and they ability to pick what you want to play based on how it plays? No, I don't think it goes against that at all. You don't like how Zephyr and Nezha play, that's fine, there's literally 40 other ways to play. If you do, great, there they are for you.

30 minutes ago, Goldenrice said:

I don't think asking to make them toggleable is asking for to much.

No, it's not a lot to ask for, but the question is why are you asking for it? The passives are an intrinsic part of how you play the frame. You, personally, find them to be inconveniencing, but me, personally, I find them both to be absolutely key to mobility with the frames. I find that in both of them (Zephyr and Nezha are literally my top two frames, which is why I'm a little enthusiastic here) performing differently in terms of mobility to other frames is a huge portion of why I enjoy playing them so much over other frames. They aren't like other frames, and thus I enjoy them more than other frames.

You pick your frame based on everything it does, not just for a single ability, or a single function it does. You don't pick Saryn just because she does damage, although that is her primary role, and you don't pick Ivara just for invisibility even though that's a high proportion of how she works.

Zephyr and Nezha have their passives as part of a complete package, and if you're only going to not use them because of the one aspect, then that's the opposite in my mind to embracing the variety and versatility that Warframe encourages and has been pushing for seven years now.

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12 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

A couple, Ivara slows down in Prowl and forces you into a particular movement pattern so you don't break stealth while Titania has Razorwing mode and forces you into an entirely different method of movement. I feel that Gauss and Volt also count to a certain degree, with their speed making you far more actively cross distances, look for direct routes or straight lines, but without their very short abilities they're completely normal mobility wise. And I feel that's a loss. I want there to be more.

You mean the game where they have deliberately implemented over 40 different ways to play the game, 18 different tile sets to play it on, and are increasing the number of game modes to play year on year, having this humungous emphasis on variety and they ability to pick what you want to play based on how it plays? No, I don't think it goes against that at all. You don't like how Zephyr and Nezha play, that's fine, there's literally 40 other ways to play. If you do, great, there they are for you.

No, it's not a lot to ask for, but the question is why are you asking for it? The passives are an intrinsic part of how you play the frame. You, personally, find them to be inconveniencing, but me, personally, I find them both to be absolutely key to mobility with the frames. I find that in both of them (Zephyr and Nezha are literally my top two frames, which is why I'm a little enthusiastic here) performing differently in terms of mobility to other frames is a huge portion of why I enjoy playing them so much over other frames. They aren't like other frames, and thus I enjoy them more than other frames.

You pick your frame based on everything it does, not just for a single ability, or a single function it does. You don't pick Saryn just because she does damage, although that is her primary role, and you don't pick Ivara just for invisibility even though that's a high proportion of how she works.

Zephyr and Nezha have their passives as part of a complete package, and if you're only going to not use them because of the one aspect, then that's the opposite in my mind to embracing the variety and versatility that Warframe encourages and has been pushing for seven years now.

What are you trying to argue exactly?

You acknowledge a portion of the playerbase that have issue with nezha/zephyr passives.  Someone makes a suggestion that addresses that issue while having 0 impact on the rest of the players.

I don't really get your logic.  If we followed your logic, nothing would change in this game.

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2 hours ago, Goldenrice said:

You acknowledge a portion of the playerbase that have issue with nezha/zephyr passives.

Yes, and I genuinely believe that these problems are only problems because of a lack of engagement, of actual adaptation to change.

I believe that putting these kinds of movement differences into game is important. Getting players to actively adapt to the differences in order to make the most out of particular frames is a healthy mindset and that putting in a toggle-off function is actually the option that means nothing changes in the game.

And please don't straw-man my argument into saying that I want nothing to change. I'm literally the Zephyr guy, I've been here years, have written or participated in (specifically) over 600 Zephyr rework threads, plus thousands more for trying to make substantive change to Warframes and mechanics in this game.

All I'm saying is that what you're advocating for is promoting the mindlessness of never having to change.

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3 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yes, and I genuinely believe that these problems are only problems because of a lack of engagement, of actual adaptation to change.

I believe that putting these kinds of movement differences into game is important. Getting players to actively adapt to the differences in order to make the most out of particular frames is a healthy mindset and that putting in a toggle-off function is actually the option that means nothing changes in the game.

And please don't straw-man my argument into saying that I want nothing to change. I'm literally the Zephyr guy, I've been here years, have written or participated in (specifically) over 600 Zephyr rework threads, plus thousands more for trying to make substantive change to Warframes and mechanics in this game.

All I'm saying is that what you're advocating for is promoting the mindlessness of never having to change.

Your ignorance and arrogance adds nothing to this thread though. 

You could've just stopped at acknowledging that players have issue with these passives. That was good enough for me.

You use examples from other warframes' abilities like ivara and titania, but those can be turned on and off.

If I don't want to use prowl, I can turn it off.

If I don't want to be in razorwing, I can turn it off.

If I don't want to run super speed, I can turn it off.

If I don't want low gravity, I can..........well I can't do anything about that other than switch frames.

This is an issue I have with the frame.  I find it intrusive because I have to play around it.  Other than Nezha, I can't think of any other frame that "forces" you to play around a frame's mechanics.  All I'm suggesting is for low gravity/slide passives of those 2 frames to be optional, like any build/playstyle of any frame of the game.

Your solution is, just accept it and adapt to it.  Why are you even commenting in this section of the forums?  I'm not here to argue playstyles and builds. I think you're in the wrong part of the forums to engage in these kinds of discussions/arguments.

Btw, you being a "zephyr guy" with thousands of zephyr posts is irrelevant to this thread and irrelevant to how other players want to play zephyr their way. Just saying.

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7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But Zephyr literally gets 50% efficiency on her 1 and 2 from being in the air, so the low gravity is there to help that.

Correction. You get charged for double the cost on 1 & 2 if you forget to hit the Space bar before that, Zephyr's kit or passives have nothing to do with being able to "benefit" of this Efficiency.

The simplest change to "optionally" have Zephyr's passive would be that crouching or sliding just makes her fall naturally.

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8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I would rather see more frames with movement changes, like expanding Rhino's Heavy Landing passive to include things like a slower sprint acceleration, but then knocking down enemies similar to Gauss once he's going. Have Wukong shift to a loping gate when he's at full speed that makes him go faster in a straight line, slide more, but then have bursts of speed by pushing off walls. More things that should inconvenience us, but make us faster if we know how to use them.

The Rhino thread recently got me thinking this and I've had the same feeling. Frames should handle differently, like guns do. Like have three or four tiny passives on and half have to do with movement. 

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Knowing how spaghetti code works, a toggle may be easier said than done. 

Rather than go on defending my main's slippery slides, I'd rather ask: Why do you want all frames to control the same? Does this desire for a toggle apply just to Nezha and Zephyr or do you want to change how optional the movement gimmicks of other frames are? Limbo's rift walk takes over his roll and can affect his vulnerability and parkour options, Mirage slides longer and maneuvers faster, Titania bullet jumps and rolls farther. Loki can wall latch longer. How intrusive is too intrusive? 

I don't particularly like how Zephyr controls in the air but I find that it's necessary to her kit. Not really a point in a frame meant to be air themed being unable to stay in the air very long.

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1 hour ago, Goldenrice said:

Your ignorance and arrogance adds nothing to this thread though. 

Well, it's text, nothing I said was meant to be arrogant. And calling me ignorant is pretty ridiculous.

Outside of that, yes, I'm adding to your post. Even just basic interaction keeps your post on the front page of this section and gives it attention.

I'm also providing a view point that is counter to your own to debate with, it's a hobby of mine to take the opposing point of view for exactly that reason.

1 hour ago, Goldenrice said:

You could've just stopped at acknowledging that players have issue with these passives. That was good enough for me.

But I'm not going to just bow down to your opinion... talk about arrogance... I'm trying to explain a point of view that opposes yours. That's the basis of debate and discourse.

I do acknowledge that players have issues, those issues are directly countered by the fact that the passives can equally be benefits, and many players use them as benefits. Nezha as a particular, I'm genuinely betting that if we polled the community, more people find his lowered friction beneficial to mobility through the game than find it a hindrance.

1 hour ago, Goldenrice said:

Your solution is, just accept it and adapt to it.

Well, yes. Because your solution is 'I don't like it, let me take it away', which is not a solution, it's just whining.

The reason I pointed out the Zephyr threads is because you're not the first, nor will you be the last, and everyone has differing opinions on how a frame should work. I am using it as anecdotal explanation for my views, and is completely relevant to the topic of changing Zephyr.

In context of changing her passive, many people have pitched actual solutions to it. I can probably link you to a few if you'd like. Or I can quite you another comment right here on this thread. Your option is not a solution, it's a rejection.

Speaking of other posts;

1 hour ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

The simplest change to "optionally" have Zephyr's passive would be that crouching or sliding just makes her fall naturally.

That, or let her use the melee ground slam animation even without a melee weapon equipped. Shuffle Dive Bomb into her passive that way, make it give her a tiny bonus to the melee if she has one, or use it as a 'get me down from here' button for when she doesn't. Actively use it.

I do want to point out that people use the slide as a means of acceleration in-air, and having it drop her faster might throw off that more basic function, people use that for every frame, not just Zephyr, and so maybe something like holding backwards? Holding backwards and sliding actually slows her down in-air already, because it imparts momentum in the opposite direction to travel, so using that as a method is probably more functional and wouldn't interfere with when players want to use the passive for forward speed.

1 hour ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

Correction. You get charged for double the cost on 1 & 2 if you forget to hit the Space bar before that

Considering these abilities have the 'regular' cost of a 1 and 2, that is 25 and 50 energy respectively, I'm going to disagree, they gain 50% efficiency for hitting space first.

Also thank you to both @CopperBezel and @KCToxic for providing similar points.

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vor 16 Minuten schrieb KCToxic:

Limbo's rift walk takes over his roll and can affect his vulnerability and parkour options,

personally i think limbo passive (rift dash) is alot more intrusive then zephyr or nezha.

if you play with banish, you are forced to use the dash as a combat mechanic (since banish doesnt self banish (srsly should be an option for banish hold). dashing its self a) displaces you b) interrupts reloads c) cannot cast ability while dashing

its accompanied by a kinda loud rift entering noise + visual indicator aswell. in squads it can leave unavoidle rift portals (mainly if u use it in door/entrances).

the displacing part makes some spy uneedingly difficult. parkour + fighting is near impsssible (as you always need to dash twice).

zephyr is quite easy to handle if you get used to the lower gravity, takes like 5min surival. nezha is even less intrusive, only thing that can get annoying is infested ship tileset but lets be honest its annoying for everyone not just nezha

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I'm suggesting making lowgravity passive optional/toggleable.  That is not saying to "take it away."  To call that whining is ignorant.

I would imagine you are the type of player who wouldn't mind playing ivara in permanent prowl form or titania in permanent razorwing form.....because why make those optional when we can just "engage and adapt to the frames"(your words).....

 

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vor 8 Minuten schrieb Goldenrice:

I'm suggesting making lowgravity passive optional/toggleable.  That is not saying to "take it away."  To call that whining is ignorant.

you do understand whats the difference between an ability and a passive right ?

its like asking if you could toggle the inherntly low armor off on nyx, so you can have average 200base armor.

or if rhino player would ask for 1,2 sprint speed, cause him being so slow is intrusive.

Edited by BloodyEy3
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yeah. its a feature of that specfic warframe. it distinguishes the playstyle of that warframe to a certain degree.

hence why i said its like rhino asking for 1,25 sprint speed, or nyx asking for 200base armor. the low base amor makes nyx play like nyx as u have to play around low surviabilty.

we could even go further  --> self dmg. picking tonkor or bramm should change ur playstyle (if it doesnt u gonne end up dead frequently). Having a melee with 5 range while some have 2range... changes playstyle. some weapons have high status chance, what do u do ? build them for crit  ? no you build status.

Its called adapting. If you dont want to adapt. noone forces you to play zehpyr or nezha.

Maybe one day in warframe we get to build our own warframe, noone will force u to pick zephyr or nezha passive then.

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I actually quite enjoy gliding in air with Zephyr's passive. It's pretty relaxing.

But I can totally understand why some people don't like it. There are times when I want to descend faster but don't want to land heavily with slam attack or Dive Bomb because of the recovery time.

My suggestion to make Zephyr's passive toggle-able would be: After air double jump, press jump button again to temporarily deactivate Zephyr's passive until landing.

Edited by yles9056
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51 minutes ago, BloodyEy3 said:

yeah. its a feature of that specfic warframe. it distinguishes the playstyle of that warframe to a certain degree.

hence why i said its like rhino asking for 1,25 sprint speed, or nyx asking for 200base armor. the low base amor makes nyx play like nyx as u have to play around low surviabilty.

we could even go further  --> self dmg. picking tonkor or bramm should change ur playstyle (if it doesnt u gonne end up dead frequently). Having a melee with 5 range while some have 2range... changes playstyle. some weapons have high status chance, what do u do ? build them for crit  ? no you build status.

Its called adapting. If you dont want to adapt. noone forces you to play zehpyr or nezha.

Maybe one day in warframe we get to build our own warframe, noone will force u to pick zephyr or nezha passive then.

Why does DE do reworks and balances changes? Why not have everyone "adapt" or dont play?

If you can't see why players have an issue with zephyrs low gravity or nezhas slide mechanics, thats ok. But to chalk it up to "just adapt," lol... Just git gud right? Thats how you improve the game

Edited by Goldenrice
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24 minutes ago, Goldenrice said:

Why does DE do reworks and balances changes? Why not have everyone "adapt" or dont play?

If you can't see why players have an issue with zephyrs low gravity or nezhas slide mechanics, thats ok. But to chalk it up to "just adapt," lol... Just git gud right? Thats how you improve the game

Because abilities and passives get reworked because of issues with them across the entire playerbase, them being underutilized or useless in the current state of the game. 

I know you're saying it as some sort of "gotcha" or whatever, but adapting to how different frames control is quite literally a "learn how to play the game"/git gud situation. That's how playing different warframes works. You don't have to play all frames if you legitimately do not like how they control, there are 40 other warframes for you to choose, most of whom lack movement variations. 

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