Jump to content
Jade Shadows: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Kind of miss my lichs killing me


(PSN)Shelneroth
 Share

Recommended Posts

Truthfully. I didn’t see why ppl complained about the Lich killing you on a failed attempted. It’s not like players was on their last revive before the Lich killed them. Plus most players run arcanes giving players a extra revive or 2. I’m not saying I miss it. But it made sense. You tried to stab on a failed attempt. The Lich counters & give you a devastating blow. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Lich killing you wasn't the problem, it was how it was done. Losing because you had the wrong guess and all and how the mechanic made no sense and it did compound the frustrations of how half baked the system is. Am I supposed to run away? Why doesn't it feel like it?

 

Let me put it this way. You really miss dying because you guessed wrong? A "Failed assassination attempt" to me white washes the whole problem with it, like you didn't fail because you rolled the wrong number and nothing more.

Edited by (PS4)AllOrNothinDays
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, (PS4)AllOrNothinDays said:

The Lich killing you wasn't the problem, it was how it was done. Losing because you had the wrong guess and all and how the mechanic made no sense and it did compound the frustrations of how half baked the system is. Am I supposed to run away? Why doesn't it feel like it?

Only thing you lost was a revive. I don’t think it was really worth all the complaining players was giving on it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, (XB1)Cash201293 said:

Only thing you lost was a revive. I don’t think it was really worth all the complaining players was giving on it. 

It's bad mechanics and adds to the overall confusion of the system. It needed to go regardless.

You have to remember you're also punished for it, The Lich levels up when you guess wrong and die so it's a "The hell?" moment. Are you supposed to just run away? If that's the case the game doesn't give that impression and party members (before the update) seemed upset when you didn't take them on.

Edited by (PS4)AllOrNothinDays
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, (PS4)AllOrNothinDays said:

It's bad mechanics and adds to the overall confusion of the system. It needed to go regardless.

You have to remember you're also punished for it, The Lich levels up when you guess wrong and die so it's a "The hell?" moment. Are you supposed to just run away? If that's the case the game doesn't give that impression and party members (before the update) seemed upset when you didn't take them on.

I think players often forget that we wield powerful frames with a devastating weaponry that can mod to kill an army of enemies for hours. So it felt nice that when we are introduced that we have a “personal boss”. They can actually kill us & for a second, feel powerless. The levels up make sense so your next run won’t be as easy as the last. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, (PS4)AllOrNothinDays said:

The Lich killing you wasn't the problem, it was how it was done.

This! There were plenty of ways to keep it there while also giving the player ways to get out of it. An "easy" way would have been replacing the death with either putting the frame in downed state or by knockdown with extended duration to make it look like the lich is strong enough to damage the frame and make it need to recover.

I'd personally have liked some sort of quick event where you are first shown a key for a brief time to allows the player to dodge the grab if pressed right, otherwise you're grabbed and get another quick event where you get presented either a sequence of keys, a movement of the analog/mouse to replicate or a simple "Mash [command]" to release yourself from the grab. The quick events get harder in higher level liches and failing both would be the only way to get hit by the backbreaker. 

Some people would complain about the quick events themselves (probably for being "too hard") but at least there would have been a way to avoid the backbreaker while liches manage to remain threatening.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Cash201293 said:

So it felt nice that when we are introduced that we have a “personal boss”

There were supposed to be our personal Nemesis, which they are not

& the kill because you didn't know, even tho you successfully downed your Lich was utter garbage

I like to take the exemple of the Russian roulette, but this time it's 5 loaded chambers with 1 unloaded, seems fair? 'Cause that's exactly how it felt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Cash201293 said:

I think players often forget that we wield powerful frames with a devastating weaponry that can mod to kill an army of enemies for hours. So it felt nice that when we are introduced that we have a “personal boss”. They can actually kill us & for a second, feel powerless. The levels up make sense so your next run won’t be as easy as the last. 

The problem was that they didn't make us feel powerless.
In fact we had just kicked the liches butt and it was on the floor gasping for breath and unable to do anything....and then because RNG wasn't on our side the lich kills us with no way to avoid it.
That doesn't make the lich powerful.  That doesn't make us feel powerless.  That doesn't make the lich interesting...it just made the lich eat a revive and 10% of our affinity just because.  For no reason.

It was just a frustration of the lich killing us...and at absolutely zero fault of our own.

If the lich had actually overpowered us, if the lich actually killed us, if the lich had actually beaten us there wouldn't have been a problem and I'm willing to bet that a lot less people would have complained.
The problem is that the lich didn't overpower us, the lich didn't actually kill us, the lich didn't actually beat us.  The game just stepped in and said "Yeah, you get one-shot because script says so!"

That doesn't feel good.  That doesn't provide any incentive to "get better".  That doesn't point out "Hey you made a mistake and the game punishes you with a death", like in practically every other game out there.  That's just the game killing you...because!

The forced death mechanic didn't do anything to put the lich even close to our level..it was just a cheap gimmick and nothing more.

So no, I have to disagree that the lich "can actually kill us" because they couldn't.  That was the game obviously stepping in and forcing us to die even if we had 100% hp and had wiped the floor with the lich in under 2 seconds.  And forcing us to die and eat a revive and the affinity penalty doesn't make the lich any stronger or more threatening.  It just makes it a cheap one-shot.

Just now, Pizzarugi said:

What if the next Lich grapple that deals enough damage to kill you, it instead plays the finisher animation?

This I would love.  After all if the lich manages to actually kill us then sure play the animation.  It actually earned it and won!  Give it some fanfare.

Edited by Tsukinoki
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, (XB1)Cash201293 said:

Truthfully. I didn’t see why ppl complained about the Lich killing you on a failed attempted. It’s not like players was on their last revive before the Lich killed them. Plus most players run arcanes giving players a extra revive or 2. I’m not saying I miss it. But it made sense. You tried to stab on a failed attempt. The Lich counters & give you a devastating blow. 

Because bad game design is always terrible and should always be terminated with EXTREME prejudice, no matter how tiny the consequences were

One of the devs (I think Steve) even admitted that what he was going for (the Forced Death was supposed to be a mutual kill where you and your Lich both die and both come back to life) wasn't clear at all, and was a personal failure because of how unclear it was

Edited by TARINunit9
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

They feel a bit meh and toothless now

They always felt meh and toothless, and the Forced Death mechanic was nothing more than a distraction.

They're not a ghost from your past come to haunt you, they're a sparring partner. You don't hunt them down, they don't hunt you down; you both just bumble around for three hours until your schedules both line up and you can have a shootout. The fact that the forums see them as nothing more than ephemera dispensers really says it all. They're not a threat, they aren't a skill-based challenge to be overcome. They're another loot grind

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I miss that they could kill me, but not that it happened because I had been unable to guess a combination of mods outside my control or skill even though I had successfully downed my Lich.

I would have liked it a lot more if they'd kept the instant kill as a special Lich attack they trigger on rare occasions. The attack would be a power struggle animation with a quick time event or something. If you win, you instantly down your Lich's current health bar. If you lose, you die. If it's a tie, you break free and nothing happens.

There were some animations on Steve's Twitter showing that at some point that may have been the actual intent as they showed your Lich trying to kill you in a grapple and your WF escaping with a kick or a headbutt, but those animations were nowhere to be found in-game while the insta-death mechanic was still present. They were also shown On Devstream 132, which took place on October 18th last year, so the "reversal" system was scrapped quite close to release.

One of these Reversals shown on Devstream 132:

 

Edited by Jarriaga
Link to comment
Share on other sites

maybe they could introduce a system where the Lich gradually learns the sequence to a devastating combo, much like how we gradually work towards knowing what requiems we need and which order. over time, the Lich would start performing moves which your warframe would counter, but eventually the Lich would gain the upper hand and at rank 5 they have the ability to execute you. this would be a move they could pull off at any time, not just on a stab, but it would cool if a failed stab showed a counter animation where the lich stops you and throws you away before disappearing, rather than just disappearing as they do now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

One of the devs (I think Steve) even admitted that what he was going for (the Forced Death was supposed to be a mutual kill where you and your Lich both die and both come back to life) wasn't clear at all, and was a personal failure because of how unclear it was

I agree what was happening was atrociously communicated. I really like the idea of two immortal beings battling it out, where a kill is just the equivalent of taking a punch. Sadly  this doesn't come across just from gameplay alone. If I had come to the lich system fresh I'd agree the forced deaths are bad game design. However instead I had followed it's development and bought in to the idea behind it. Whether this is a case of me drinking the DE koolaid or being more in tune with the devs I don't know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...