Thoughts in interactive button combination mechanics.

[Alseiker]

Something i have been always wanting to see in Warframe and i always thought it would suit this game is puzzle mechanics relying in button combination to some interactions. I'm in a place where i don't have anything to sketch my thoughts with detail so i guess i would need to describe them with words:

1. Random button combination to avoid knowdown: I have always think that some kind of prompt with a random button combination to evade a knockdown would be amazing, making it more interactive to play around it, since is kind of awful how you have to play with the idea of evade by yourself being knockdown from some units and when you get grabbed by one you just have no way of avoid being one-shotted. I think something like: [Get grabbed] => [Prompt Popup with combination] => [If you fail it, you get a knockdown] would be the simplest description.

2. Random button press to Counter Melee Attack: It would be kind of amazing to get a fast prompt with a random button to press to counter some melee attacks of enemies and when you press this button correctly you trigger those new finishers that you do to kuva thralls as the counter.

3. Random button press to avoid being knowdown from Robotic Units: I mean, the circle is really descriptive but some prompt would make it more cool.

Those are the ones i have thought right now, I have based those ideas in some games that rely in this to make cool scenes with button smashing like God of War, Dragon Ball Budokai Tenkachi, Asura's Wrath.

[_Urakaze_]

I think boss tackle QTE would be nice, as long as it's not a spam.

For counters I rather have a specific button but with right timing, that seems way more intuitive

[(NSW)Greybones]

This is sort of funny cause I was earlier wishing there was something similar when I got hookilled by a scorpion. Though it was a knee-jerk solution thought and personally I steer clear of reliance on this sort of mechanic if there are other ways to solve the problem.

 

What you’re describing is basically a Quick Time Event (Just like God of War, yes). It’s worth doing some research using that specific term, seeing how it’s utilized in other games and what people think about it as a game mechanic in general.

 

I’m thinking that overall you’d like a more Cinematic feel to the game while also easing the impact of being knocked down?

Edited February 26, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones
Having only suggestions seemed pretty self-important, so wanted to engage with original poster by seeking to be on the same page

[Kaotyke]

I would prefer if it had 1 button only for that. Maybe pressing space bar at the right time to recover fast from a knockdown oe block at the right moment but... Combination of keys or random keys, QTEs in this case, would be... out of place in such a fast paced game like this.

Specially in the case of a horde game.

[Alseiker]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

This is sort of funny cause I was earlier wishing there was something similar when I got hookilled by a scorpion.

That was the main trigger for this idea. I really like Quick Time Events in games (as (NSW)Greybones said they are called) and they would make some much parts of the game less about tapping E and running to hordes to being targeted by a action that you don't have any way of reacting to avoid.

I get why scorpions were made in game (Those guy using high terrain as a way to farm afk) but the way they works is the same as kuva liches mod combinations but with them you just always fail and get a knockdown, people just don't care much about them because they are not the direct cause of them being deleted from existence.

[DeccanTraps]

No thank you, some of you may be in those halycon days of youth, the sun of your years still undimed and rising, synapses a swift running cateract of electrochemical relay in miraculous aclarity. Can cope with sudden and urgent interjection of a novel input.

I and others like me are old, those connections in our brains clutterd with a cruft of old growth, at the weghty age of 39 I depend as much on muscle memory as reaction time to muddle through the game, with reactions more zimmer frame than warframe. I don't need another mechanic to make me feel old and slow.

[Alseiker]

19 minutes ago, DeccanTraps said:

No thank you, some of you may be in those halycon days of youth, the sun of your years still undimed and rising, synapses a swift running cateract of electrochemical relay in miraculous aclarity. Can cope with sudden and urgent interjection of a novel input.

I and others like me are old, those connections in our brains clutterd with a cruft of old growth, at the weghty age of 39 I depend as much on muscle memory as reaction time to muddle through the game, with reactions more zimmer frame than warframe. I don't need another mechanic to make me feel old and slow.

Well, one option to deal with it is better than not option, and doesn't have to be a fast tap to avoid.

[(NSW)Greybones]

45 minutes ago, Neoriek said:

That was the main trigger for this idea. I really like Quick Time Events in games (as (NSW)Greybones said they are called) and they would make some much parts of the game less about tapping E and running to hordes to being targeted by a action that you don't have any way of reacting to avoid.

I get why scorpions were made in game (Those guy using high terrain as a way to farm afk) but the way they works is the same as kuva liches mod combinations but with them you just always fail and get a knockdown, people just don't care much about them because they are not the direct cause of them being deleted from existence.

I see, so it was mainly the hook that was a problem, and the cinematic aspect came later?

 

I’d love to find out what the DE game designers thought about the hooking mechanics. What problem were they looking to solve? What alternatives did they think of before settling on the hook? The game’s changed since the hooking mechanic was introduced; is it still solving the original problem effectively? Were they even happy with the solution?

I feel if we could discuss where it came from, we could effectively discuss where it’s going.

Lacking that particular knowledge within this post though, and considering the topic is about thoughts on the QTE aspect of limiting the impact of hooking (and adding some visual flair to the combat), I wonder if, instead of solving the reactionary problem of what to do when hooked, it might be worth thinking about how to avoid the hooking in the first place.

Perhaps a big ol’ indicator on the screen that can be seen even when looking away from the attacker, showing when someone’s about to wind up for a hook. The wind up animations themselves often don’t cut it in the midst of a hectic fight.

Or maybe a distinctive sound that can be made to indicate that a hook is about to happen.

Something to be noticed and let the player choose what to do next. And while these half-formed solution suggestions may look easy to do, I can respect that they require more work than I expect, so I’m not keen on exploring within this context anything more complex than those.

I can respect the desire to see the QTE stuff, and I can almost see the way a parry would play out, but I’ve sort of been focusing on the hooking (sorry!) and think that it doesn’t work as well there.

Edited February 26, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones
Forgot original posters core desire to see QTE, period

[Guest]

F*ck QTEs. I've never enjoyed them in any game.

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 minutes ago, Pr1A said:

F*ck QTEs. I've never enjoyed them in any game.

Why’s that?

[Alseiker]

7 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I see, so it was mainly the hook that was a problem, and the cinematic aspect came later?

Technically, but the main driven was the question about how to approach complexity in the enemies making them more interactive without relying in big IA changes (that's why i pointed the reaction mechanic when melee'd by a enemy),

I saw these cinematic scenes with thralls that came with the kuva liches patch and was thinking about how would make the enemies less plain some mechanics around interacting more with them with quick events and puzzles than relying in stats changes or obligate the player to take the initiative to make those. I found really interesting the idea of this quick finisher they implemented in game to give the game a better stylish way to play (if that count as a quick event). It was a good idea, but Warframe plays too much fast paced game that triggering those actions is almost impossible, maybe those actions fit more the enemies as a way to make the player react to them (obviously not every enemy melee need to trigger those, would be a nightmare to be countering too much stuffs).

28 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’d love to find out what the DE game designers thought about the hooking mechanics. What problem were they looking to solve? What alternatives did they think of before settling on the hook? The game’s changed since the hooking mechanic was introduced; is it still solving the original problem effectively? Were they even happy with the solution?

I think that (i'm guessing in this one), that they implemented this as a way to deal with players using ceiling bugs, camping in frost bubble or gara wall in high terrains, camping in high terrain as a way to be inmune againts infested enemies (since they don't shoot) or guys playing to get through 40+ waves tanking and running.

32 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Perhaps a big ol’ indicator on the screen that can be seen even when looking away from the attacker, showing when someone’s about to wind up for a hook. The wind up animations themselves often don’t cut it in the midst of a hectic fight.

Thinking about a Big ol 'indicator pointing enemies grenades.

[LoneWolveYoutube]

I’m down.  Anything that increases skill gap be good.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Why’s that?

Video games are all about interactivity and QTEs are literally the bare minimum form of it. "Tap a button when prompted" is just a cop-out solution when the developer can't come up with any actually interesting combat mechanics.

And don't even get me started about cutscenes with QTEs, nothing makes me uninstall a game faster than that crap.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Guest

[(NSW)Greybones]

6 minutes ago, Neoriek said:

Technically, but the main driven was the question about how to approach complexity in the enemies making them more interactive without relying in big IA changes (that's why i pointed the reaction mechanic when melee'd by a enemy),

I saw these cinematic scenes with thralls that came with the kuva liches patch and was thinking about how would make the enemies less plain some mechanics around interacting more with them with quick events and puzzles than relying in stats changes or obligate the player to take the initiative to make those. I found really interesting the idea of this quick finisher they implemented in game to give the game a better stylish way to play (if that count as a quick event). It was a good idea, but Warframe plays too much fast paced game that triggering those actions is almost impossible, maybe those actions fit more the enemies as a way to make the player react to them (obviously not every enemy melee need to trigger those, would be a nightmare to be countering too much stuffs).

I see. If I’m correct in understanding you, that seems like some pretty solid thinking there. It’d have to work within the current implementation of Warframe, which (and I cannot speak for them) seems to be about moving around a lot, often not leaving room to engage with an enemy on the almost personal level you’re looking for.

What’s the cinematic you’re referring to?
 

Also, totally feel you in regards to the grenade icon, haha. Doubt I’m the only one.

[(NSW)Greybones]

11 minutes ago, Pr1A said:

Video games are all about interactivity and QTEs are literally the bare minimum form of it. "Tap a button when prompted" is just a cop-out solution when the developer can't come up with any actually interesting combat mechanics.

And don't even get me started about cutscenes with QTEs, nothing makes me uninstall a game faster than that crap.

I see.

Makes me wonder about what the reason was for implementing it. 
Not referring to any particular game since I have no idea whether we’ve played anything in common, but I figure they would have had the cutscene, and it would play out like normal, and they’d look at it and then they would have identified that it needed something and settled on a QTE.

Wish I could talk to everyone about their motivations, particularly game developers.

Edited February 26, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones
Confirmation that I see their point of view

[Alseiker]

1 hour ago, Pr1A said:

Video games are all about interactivity and QTEs are literally the bare minimum.

The problem itself is the lack of options you have to work into "competent IA", you will never get a IA enough competent to make the player feel rewarding in a long term, kind of a problem i used to feel when playing musou games, punching a punching hordes of enemies that don't make a bare minimum of countermeasure around what i do is just a let down. The game right now focus more in login a doing X thing to get X thing without any inherent good reason to do it (except for the sake of looking at nice red crits).

Then, you get the problem of having not way of counter or avoid some actions that happens so often when playing, You get into this situation where you are in a post-wave 30 arbitration where you get those guy that can hook you, venom around you when you are against infested, and ton things that can knockdown you and you literally can't do anything to play around them. Don't get me wrong, obviously there should be some stage in a mission where you should be thinking that maybe you must extract, or you gonna get killed since is hard, but the thing is that in reality you aren't playing around a situation where you are getting some difficulty, you are just playing into a situation where you can't deal anything with all the things that can lock you down without some visual indication or counter.

Big scenes like God of War boss that you just press buttons to advance to a cutscene isn't the prompts that i'm thinking.

2 hours ago, Pr1A said:

 "Tap a button when prompted" is just a cop-out solution when the developer can't come up with any actually interesting combat mechanics.

 

I was thinking more about a combination of 2 or 3 keys random (arrow key would work) as a prompt instead to tapping a key, and not as a mandatory action.

[Alseiker]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What’s the cinematic you’re referring to?

Sorry, i used the wrong word to describe them, I was referring to the finishers you do to the thralls when you press X. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

6 hours ago, Neoriek said:

Sorry, i used the wrong word to describe them, I was referring to the finishers you do to the thralls when you press X. 

Ah yeah. I like those, they’re pretty neat even if they don’t do much with enemies that aren’t thralls. They’re a bit like the glory kills from the new Doom games, aren’t they? And those are worked into the surviving gameplay itself in that game.

I was also reading your post reply to Pr1a, and it feels like we’re drilling down to deeper aspects of the game that you’ve probably had on your mind for a while.  I’m mainly picking up vibes about the lack of player agency sometimes and the inability to properly react in some situations, whether due to powerful enemy attacks or few situational awareness helpers, please correct me if I’m wrong.

I wonder if that starts getting away from the original topic, though? As the not-original poster, I can only make educated guesses as to the intent behind the original post, mind you.

That said, I’m completely down for discussing player capability and options in games. I can discuss what makes things fun and enjoyable and solid in video games till the sun comes up and/or my discourse partner gets bored.

Edited February 27, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones
Original phrase, “Blue in the face”, has connotations of arguing, when instead I wanted to convey a sense of conversation

[(PSN)robotwars7]

so basically QTEs. yeah, no thanks. I'll never forgive Ubisoft for making the "fight" with Vaas Montenegro in Far Cry 3 - arguably one of the best videogame villains of a generation - a goddamn QTE that lasted 5 seconds. they're just a cop-out solution that devs use when they've either given up or have no time for anything else.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

No thanks. I'm not playing God of War.

[trst]

In a devstream a long time ago now the idea of some prompt to get out of knockdowns faster was confirmed as an "eventual" feature that had sat on the backburner. But said stream, iirc, was over two years ago now so the chances of that randomly popping up in a patch seems unlikely. Though the idea was just something along the line of an input within a timed window and not an entire qte.

Personally I'm all for mechanics like these but not as some cinimatic-esque qte as such a system would likely disrupt the flow of the game too much. Especially for countering melee enemies as I don't want to be pulled into a qte just for a stray butcher hitting me from behind.

[(NSW)Greybones]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

No thanks. I'm not playing God of War.

Why’s that?

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

39 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Why’s that?

Because I only play online games. 

[Teliko_Freedman]

In Phantasy Star Online 2, we have this skill that lets us recover from knockdown by springing back to our feet if we press jump after hitting the ground once.

It has to be timed on the first time you hit the ground though, otherwise you'll be grounded.