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Shield suggestions( + post stream thoughts )


Bakahung
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( This post is make before the Dev Stream , if someone wants to know my OP on the oncoming changes , I put it right here )

 

Hello everyone.
First of all,I know DE is already looking at fixing shields,and we will probably get some info in this weeks Dev Stream,but I still want to share my opinion.

Shield is always be kind of useless in most cases, not just enemies , but also on warframes .
I want to try give some suggestions on how to make them useful , and can be actually use in builds to improve survivability.
So let's just jump into it.

 

1.Shield regeneration

On one of the dev stream,they mention how enemies shield get demolished so fast , they can barely regen . And the regen speed is also not ideal.
It's the same on warframes.

So to fix this fairly easy.Just greatly improve shields regen speed.
make it % base ,so frame with higher shield regen much faster , and frame that don't use sheild will not benefit from this.

Next,decrease shield regen delay. 
But not for every frame.Just like different frame have different armor,they should have different delay.

Frames like Saryn and Wukong should have a longer delay , while Mag or Nyx will  regen almost instantly.

 

2.Shield and status

On the same Dev stream,they also say they are looking at shield and status.So many Status affect can bypass shield,also making to powerless.

To fix this,I suggest that with more shield one have remain(% base),the duration of status should be lowered.

I think with more shield you have , status Duration will be lowered , up to - 80% duration .
It's like the shield is softening the blow,so the after effect won't matter that long.

To make it simple to read,here's the formula:

Status Duration(%) =100% - ( 80% * ( current shield / max shield ) )
when have 70% shield remaining , Status duration will be 100% - ( 80% * ( 70 / 100 ) ) =100% - 56% = 44%

And this will be the same case with over shield.
When have like 130% shield,status duration will be 100% - ( 80% * ( 130 / 100 ) = 100% - 104% = -4% , which mean status immunity . 
 

This will greatly improve shield's effectiveness against status affect .

And why duration and not something else?Because every status all have different effect,cutting down their strength when be a big pain.
So just cut down one thing they all have , that is duration.

But there is one exception,that is Magnetic . It should always have 100% duration whether there is shield or not .

It's like the magnetic directly affect the shield machine , and not the people.
 

3. Over Shield
I'm not going to talk about this but , I just read on wiki while I'm thinking about the formula up there.
Apparently it's Max value is a flat 1200 , while Harrow can have 2400 thanks to his passive.
This need to be change too . Frames with bigger shield capacity should have more over shield potential .
I think this is one of those value that needs to be set individually , and max shield mods will also increase it .

Spaking of mods ,let's talk about them.

 

4. Shield mods
Shield mods should be more powerful , to be worth running them over hp and armor , and those who don't have high hp and armor can  benefit from using them .

Max shield mods should effect over shield , too , like I just mention .

And shield regen mod on one hand should be better , in the other hand should also decrease regen delay .


So with all these changes , my 1100 shield Mag build can now survive - oh wait ,her shield get destroy in 1 sec and die.

 

5.base shield 

Since shield itself don't have any DR , they will get destroy so easily . Even star chart level enemies don't care about them.

There are 2 ways to solve it , one is shield gate ,which is complicated , another one is increase base shield.

We all know different frames have different armor and HP value , the same goes with base shields.

but while hp can go from 225 to 300 and armor from 65 to 300 , shield's different only have like 150 to 300 ,which we know barely matters.

By increasing those *shield base frames base shield , will greatly increase those frames survivability , and not got 1 shot and have no time to react.

So I suggest ,those frames shield should be tripled 

With these 300 shield frame become 900 shield ,they will breath easier ,and shield-benefit mods will be more useful.

 

So these is my suggestion.

Some number in this probably needs some change due to lack of experiment , but the idea is what matter.

Let's wish this issue will really be fixed in near future , and I can play missions with my 3300 shield Mag and don't have to worried about dying.

 

*When I say shield base frame ,I don't refer to those frame that have high shield but have their on way to survive , like DR powers or invisibility.

Edited by Bakahung
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The idea of buffing shields worries me a bit. 

I know it's an open question what the new player experience in Warframe is meant to be, but it's worth considering that for those first few dozen hours, shields are your primary source of eHP and much easier to regenerate than health. Anything that massively increases shield capacities or regeneration is going to have an effect on that. So, like, in your idea, consider the effects among the three starter frames. One has only ordinary shields, one has unusually high shields, and one is a genuinely shield-oriented frame with the ability to instantly regenerate shields or, at a fairly high energy cost for early game players, even create some overshields. The frames would be affected in a way that might make them all a bit tankier than they're meant to be in early stages, but on top of that, the effects would also be very asymmetrical. 

Meanwhile, Hunter Adrenaline / Rage is still one of the best ways later on of regenerating energy. That might be a problem in itself, but it means that stronger shields would actually be a hindrance for a lot of frames. 

So I kinda think that any overall shield rework on the player side would have to take these things into account and actually involve cutting the shield capacity on a lot of frames to compensate, while introducing some new mods that could make up a little bit of the ground that health has on shields from the modding side. We do have a couple of mods that affect shield regeneration rate, and those could become much more valuable in a system like this and the counterpart to health having armor mods, but I think there'd be some careful balancing required there.

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  • Shields already take total Capacity into account, and add a Percentage of that to your Recharge value.
  • rather than reducing or changing the Recharge Delay at all, there are simply no Mods or mechanics of any sort in the game that actually lets one reduce their Recharge Delay. nothing at all.
    so, that should be addressed. there should be Mods, Abilities, Arcanes, Et Cetera that affect Recharge Delay. and not just vanilla generic Stat Mods, more complex ones as well, to give actual options.
  • what are you asking in particular for Overshields? i assume you're referring to Flat Value + Percentage of total Shield Capacity?
  • Shield Regen Speed Mods are already highly effective, they're a straight Multiplier to your Recharge value.
  • Shields not having built in DR is not significant. Armor just increases the amount of Health that you have, it's not magic. sure, for most Warframes the Armor Stat makes their Health Stat 15-75% larger than it says on paper. but you don't need DR to do that, since it's the same thing as having a larger raw value.
    • i don't understand what your supposed comparison is supposed to show, Health for one ranges from 225 to 375 excluding the one major outlier, and 15 to 450 excluding the major outliers the same; while Shield fro 150 to 450.
      but, what is the purpose of the comparison? if you run the numbers then you're looking at Health+Armor in a range of ~4x while Shields 3x. i feel like i'm explaining your own point for you, since this must be the point you're making, i guess? though these numbers don't support your end point, as they only suggest that Shields should all go up by ~30-33% to be in context of the ranges that Health works with.

obviously things are weighted against Shields though, but they always are - in every aspect of the game, Mods/Equipment mechanics for Health are in both high volume and offer large numbers - while Shields always being much lower in volume and offering fairly paranoid numbers.
that's really the source of the problem, that the game is always unnecessarily paranoid about Shields in their raw state, while essentially the opposite for Health.

for the most recent offense, just look at Railjack. you can Mod a Railjack to have like 6x Health and 4x Armor, but only about 2x Shields. how does that even make sense.

 

as a concluding statement - the main issue with Shields is just that the Mods/Gear we have to make them stronger is barely there and has paranoid values - it is simply heavily biased against by the entire game. there is simply a major lack of Mods and Gear to work with Shields and create Gameplay mechanics out of.
we have all sorts of Mods that use Health as a resource or give you Health or Et Cetera - we have almost none of that for Shields.

Edited by taiiat
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27 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

The idea of buffing shields worries me a bit. 

I know it's an open question what the new player experience in Warframe is meant to be, but it's worth considering that for those first few dozen hours, shields are your primary source of eHP and much easier to regenerate than health. Anything that massively increases shield capacities or regeneration is going to have an effect on that. So, like, in your idea, consider the effects among the three starter frames. One has only ordinary shields, one has unusually high shields, and one is a genuinely shield-oriented frame with the ability to instantly regenerate shields or, at a fairly high energy cost for early game players, even create some overshields. The frames would be affected in a way that might make them all a bit tankier than they're meant to be in early stages, but on top of that, the effects would also be very asymmetrical. 

Meanwhile, Hunter Adrenaline / Rage is still one of the best ways later on of regenerating energy. That might be a problem in itself, but it means that stronger shields would actually be a hindrance for a lot of frames. 

So I kinda think that any overall shield rework on the player side would have to take these things into account and actually involve cutting the shield capacity on a lot of frames to compensate, while introducing some new mods that could make up a little bit of the ground that health has on shields from the modding side. We do have a couple of mods that affect shield regeneration rate, and those could become much more valuable in a system like this and the counterpart to health having armor mods, but I think there'd be some careful balancing required there.

I just type so much thing and accidentally click away...OMG

Let's keep it short.

I don't think mag is the top choice for starter,make her tankier when make her a more viable choice,and actually provide a unique option(tank) upon those 3 choice.

And balance.

These numbers in post are not final number,it's just me guessing without proper testing and calculation.They will definitely be change,and I'm happy with that.

This post is more to provide a direction to buff shield.

Thx for your feedback:D

Also rip my text.

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28 minutes ago, taiiat said:
  • Shields already take total Capacity into account, and add a Percentage of that to your Recharge value.
  • rather than reducing or changing the Recharge Delay at all, there are simply no Mods or mechanics of any sort in the game that actually lets one reduce their Recharge Delay. nothing at all.
    so, that should be addressed. there should be Mods, Abilities, Arcanes, Et Cetera that affect Recharge Delay. and not just vanilla generic Stat Mods, more complex ones as well, to give actual options.
  • what are you asking in particular for Overshields? i assume you're referring to Flat Value + Percentage of total Shield Capacity?
  • Shield Regen Speed Mods are already highly effective, they're a straight Multiplier to your Recharge value.
  • Shields not having built in DR is not significant. Armor just increases the amount of Health that you have, it's not magic. sure, for most Warframes the Armor Stat makes their Health Stat 15-75% larger than it says on paper. but you don't need DR to do that, since it's the same thing as having a larger raw value.
    • i don't understand what your supposed comparison is supposed to show, Health for one ranges from 225 to 375 excluding the one major outlier, and 15 to 450 excluding the major outliers the same; while Shield fro 150 to 450.
      but, what is the purpose of the comparison? if you run the numbers then you're looking at Health+Armor in a range of ~4x while Shields 3x. i feel like i'm explaining your own point for you, since this must be the point you're making, i guess? though these numbers don't support your end point, as they only suggest that Shields should all go up by ~30-33% to be in context of the ranges that Health works with.

 

The post is long,so I'll respond in 2 part.This will be answer your questions.

1.I'm aware of that,but it's too slow.Up some numbers will make them better.

2.You're right.So I also suggest shield regen mod should also affect charge delay.Like reload mod effecting both charge speed and delay for recharge weapons.

 

3.Yes that I want to say.Sorry for my bad writing.

 

4.Without proper delay,shield regen will not be enough,so I think mixing it with delay mod making it effect both.

If they are seperate,I won't want to use a precious mod slot just for that...Unless the number is super good.

 

5.Just like armor making HP better,I wish shield have similar thing,with a bigger raw number and Regan speed.

The DR part is just saying why they get destroy fast and lead to further discussion.

And the high/low number comparison is to point out that while HP frame have much better number compare to not HP frame,shield frame's shield is not high enough compare to others.They are too low to be an affective survival tool.

Sorry again for my bad writing,trying to figure out that formula took away most of my brain power...

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46 minutes ago, taiiat said:
  • Obviously things are weighted against Shields though, but they always are - in every aspect of the game, Mods/Equipment mechanics for Health are in both high volume and offer large numbers - while Shields always being much lower in volume and offering fairly paranoid numbers.

that's really the source of the problem, that the game is always unnecessarily paranoid about Shields in their raw state, while essentially the opposite for Health.

for the most recent offense, just look at Railjack. you can Mod a Railjack to have like 6x Health and 4x Armor, but only about 2x Shields. how does that even make sense.

 

as a concluding statement - the main issue with Shields is just that the Mods/Gear we have to make them stronger is barely there and has paranoid values - it is simply heavily biased against by the entire game. there is simply a major lack of Mods and Gear to work with Shields and create Gameplay mechanics out of.
we have all sorts of Mods that use Health as a resource or give you Health or Et Cetera - we have almost none of that for Shields.

About the mod part,this is also an issue,and I think I have some ideas.

Like I mention in my post,some frame's base shield is not enough and should be higher.

Maybe don't make it triple,just Like double while also make shield mod better.

And I think the fear about shield is,since is a self-regeneration defence,player won't have to use resource or such to be healthy again,while HP needs to be restored manually.

Why spam pizzas when player can just sit in a corner for 1 sec?

I think this is why they are concerned.

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2 hours ago, Bakahung said:

The post is long

:quack:

2 hours ago, Bakahung said:

You're right.So I also suggest shield regen mod should also affect charge delay.Like reload mod effecting both charge speed and delay for recharge weapons.

Without proper delay,shield regen will not be enough,so I think mixing it with delay mod making it effect both.

Fortitude perhaps, but Fast Deflection having a single Stat is consistent with other Mods. just as creating a dedicated Mod for Recharge Delay would also be consistent.

Fast Deflection is about double the Recharge Speed, which is more than what Steel Fiber generally offers a Warframe (adding Steel Fiber is generally about 1.5x EHP)
i.e. 1.9x is not a tiny increase.

2 hours ago, Bakahung said:

And I think the fear about shield is,since is a self-regeneration defence,player won't have to use resource or such to be healthy again,while HP needs to be restored manually.

I think this is why they are concerned.

we already developed past those problems that we already had in the early years, Damage v2 added two types of Damage that can bypass Shields. that solved the problem immediately, it was no longer possible to just stack as many Shields as possible. that also came along with not being able to Mod yourself to the effect of +6000% Shields either, which ofcourse helped too.

yes though, it is a concern to be had of not wanting Players to be able to auto tank things. which is why it's important for changes to mostly be done via Mods and slottable Equipment, so that it affects unmodded Players/Stats the least amount.
the magic ticket could very well be looking at say, Amps, Zaws, Kitguns - where your choices are essentially all Corrupted Mods. vanilla Mods offering a medium benefit to one Stat, Nightmare/dual Stat Mods a small-medium benefit to two Stats, and then some options for strong changes to Stats but coming with drawbacks. want Shields with a very low Recharge Delay? costs Capacity. want very high Capacity? costs Recharge Delay and Recharge Speed. Et Cetera. quite a few options can be offered via that, as there are a lot of combinations of one or two things going up for one or two things going down. could even have a Nightmare Mod that sets a new precedent of 3 Stats, small benefits to Capacity, Recharge Speed, and Recharge Delay.

and then ofcourse finally having a Shield Gate, as having one Gate on breaking is still not much to ask for and Scotts' excuse of "well this won't save you that often" is bunk because that's the point - it keeps a random Grenade or Homing Missile from oneshotting you but doesn't do much else.
unlike Hildryn though, the Gate (and Hildryns' tbh) should be based on Time, not full Recharge. only reason why Hildryn is able to break stuff is because the 'Cooldown' on Gating is based on the Shield bar, which ironically is way more broken than what the Community had asked for. all the Community had really asked for was either just a single Gate that doesn't do anything but Gate and no Cooldown, or a single Gate that makes you invulnerable for a fraction of a second and a Cooldown of like 5 seconds. which were "too OP" then they made Hildryn instead

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So...The Dev Stream is over , and I'm actually really happy to see the changes. At first I thought they will more focus on Enemies , so I'm a little surprise that will also take on player's.

Some main changes ( from my memory , not in order )

1.Shield Gate

Just a really good anti-oneshot mechanic , which is nice .
It's different form my suggestion , which is just increase shield . But they achieve the same goal , so It's good.

2.Build-in DR

Giving shield DR is one of the option that i had , but ultimately discard it because it require changes to the core of mechanic , which I want to avoid .

But since DE is the creator , of course they have the right to change it . They decide to directly solve the issue than make it less broken , which I like really much .

 

In conclusion , I really like DE's direction on shield , though it's different from mine.

I mean , they are the one that actually have all the data and testing they need to make the right choice , and I'm just a random player that like to complain stuff.

So , 9/10 , really good . 

Keep on the good works 😄

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Yeah, I think the new gate mechanic and the fact that shields take longer to regenerate if completely broken give us some important shield-related mechanics that increase the scalability of shields without making them too much more powerful very early on. And the flat DR is indeed similar to simply multiplying the amount of shields everyone gets, if by a smaller factor, without having to rejigger quite so many numbers.

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В 2/27/2020 в 2:30 PM, taiiat сказал:

and then ofcourse finally having a Shield Gate, as having one Gate on breaking is still not much to ask for and Scotts' excuse of "well this won't save you that often" is bunk because that's the point - it keeps a random Grenade or Homing Missile from oneshotting you but doesn't do much else.unlike Hildryn though, the Gate (and Hildryns' tbh) should be based on Time, not full Recharge. only reason why Hildryn is able to break stuff is because the 'Cooldown' on Gating is based on the Shield bar, which ironically is way more broken than what the Community had asked for. all the Community had really asked for was either just a single Gate that doesn't do anything but Gate and no Cooldown, or a single Gate that makes you invulnerable for a fraction of a second and a Cooldown of like 5 seconds. which were "too OP" then they made Hildryn instead

Let's not mess with something that works. Arcane aegis will get a nerf, which means that the dragon key build will be lost. All other funds are your active assistants in the management of the shield (which means that you will need to click on the buttons), so you will have a chance to lose. If we say that all frames will get shieldGate, it was mentioned that the invulnerability will be very short, maybe 0.5 seconds, which means that a rapid-fire weapon will just kill you, even if you are spam Mag 3.

The timer will only boost tank frames with DR that can support their shields for a long time. That is, the timer is a bad idea that will only be implemented on a small number of frames that don't have a problem with shield settings right now, but still use health because of rage, armor, and quick recovery. On the other hand, If the trigger is 100% shield, then frames that work with the shield, such as harrow, mag, trinity, Gauss, volt, equinox, and all DR and max shields tanks, will benefit from this. Also, shield ospray becomes a very useful specter, before it could not even compete with the ancient healer. Also, all frames will benefit from the transfer of energy to shields and dark dagger, which means that the same mag will be able to use melee without being afraid of oneshotes from 60 levels.

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1 hour ago, zhellon said:

Let's not mess with something that works. Arcane aegis will get a nerf, which means that the dragon key build will be lost. All other funds are your active assistants in the management of the shield (which means that you will need to click on the buttons), so you will have a chance to lose. If we say that all frames will get shieldGate, it was mentioned that the invulnerability will be very short, maybe 0.5 seconds, which means that a rapid-fire weapon will just kill you, even if you are spam Mag 3.

what is even your point in that Paragraph.

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

The timer will only boost tank frames with DR that can support their shields for a long time. That is, the timer is a bad idea that will only be implemented on a small number of frames that don't have a problem with shield settings right now, but still use health because of rage, armor, and quick recovery. On the other hand, If the trigger is 100% shield, then frames that work with the shield, such as harrow, mag, trinity, Gauss, volt, equinox, and all DR and max shields tanks, will benefit from this. Also, shield ospray becomes a very useful specter, before it could not even compete with the ancient healer. Also, all frames will benefit from the transfer of energy to shields and dark dagger, which means that the same mag will be able to use melee without being afraid of oneshotes from 60 levels.

i guess i'm just going to repeat myself because you're just rambling at me but i don't know what your point is.

a Timer Cooldown for the Gate is literally what the Community asked for, a Plating that prevents death from ??? sources. with a Timer preventing it from being a problem, bypassing all balancing issues. but Digital Extremes complained at us that it wasn't a good idea and then made extremely exploitable Gating instead that also incentivize having the smallest Shield Pool possible - it's just a mess. and going further into that mess, just like every time the game does the same thing over the past 7 years, creates a bigger mess, just like it always had.
you already made my argument for me, as you proceeded to list off various things in the game that can use a Shield Capacity based Gate essentially permanently. i.e. the exact thing Digital Extremes said they didn't want - but precedence ofcourse would tell us that Digital Extremes telling us they don't want something means we'll probably get exactly that in some way, as they'll create it themselves anyways.

but because of that precedence, it's pretty hard for me to be surprised. i'm not.

 

getting regularly oneshot by a Lv60 Enemy? if that's a Bombard potato gunning you or something then maybe but, otherwise how would that be such a big problem at lv60 (it isn't).

Edited by taiiat
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В 2/29/2020 в 1:22 PM, taiiat сказал:

a Timer Cooldown for the Gate is literally what the Community asked for, a Plating that prevents death from ??? sources. with a Timer preventing it from being a problem, bypassing all balancing issues. but Digital Extremes complained at us that it wasn't a good idea and then made extremely exploitable Gating instead that also incentivize having the smallest Shield Pool possible - it's just a mess. and going further into that mess, just like every time the game does the same thing over the past 7 years, creates a bigger mess, just like it always had.


you already made my argument for me, as you proceeded to list off various things in the game that can use a Shield Capacity based Gate essentially permanently. i.e. the exact thing Digital Extremes said they didn't want - but precedence ofcourse would tell us that Digital Extremes telling us they don't want something means we'll probably get exactly that in some way, as they'll create it themselves anyways.

I don't know why people are hoping for this, but the timer is a bad mechanic for most frames. Go to Borderlands 3 and see how two similar mechanics work. Healthgate, which gives 2 seconds of invulnerability, a unique shield that gives 5 seconds of invulnerability, and there is a relic that gives 5 seconds of invulnerability every 40 seconds if the health is less than 50 percent. Characters can abuse this system. Is anyone worried about this? No. In most cases, you still have a chance of death.

I don't see any problems with warframe abuse yet. If the invulnerability of 0.5 seconds is almost nothing. I think almost all abilities that are associated with shields have a longer cast. As for shieldospray, you can only abuse it because of its mobility, leaving and entering its area of operation. But it will also take longer than 0.5 seconds, which means you can die. As for darkdagger - everything is simple. It is now an OP for shields because it has slash damage, allowing you to instantly restore shields every slash tick. But you also need to have radiation on the target, which means you may not get the benefit of this passive ability. But, I don't understand what the problem is here, if I can have any frame with armor and use slash damage the same way, only to restore full health and it will be much easier. (all thanks to the new heavy-hitting system and the guaranteed slash of some melee)

I only see one problem, it's that you will get an advantage from rage for 0.5 longer. But, I don't think that this will affect the gameplay in any way, because those who use rage keep their shields at 0 almost constantly. Another point is that if some abilities are strong, you can simply add cast diration to them and they will become less effective. But I don't see anything wrong with abusing shieldgate abilities, because there are abilities that actually disable the game, and if you want balance, then you should start with huge nerfs, like Nova 4. But I think DE need to work with the energy system and that will solve all the problems because, you can't abuse shieldgate with abilities if you don't have energy. But I'm not worried about balance. But I like shieldgate as it is done with hildryn, because it is a good protective potential that many frames lack.

But, if people really want to have a timer, let there be a timer. Just enter a mod that changes the mechanics of shieldgate and allows you to use it like hildryn. I'm willing to spend a slot on this.

Edited by zhellon
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2 hours ago, zhellon said:

Just enter a mod that changes the mechanics of shieldgate and allows you to use it like hildryn. I'm willing to spend a slot on this.

a fair trade would probably be closer to 2 or maybe 3 Slots, heh.

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51 минуту назад, taiiat сказал:

a fair trade would probably be closer to 2 or maybe 3 Slots, heh.

Well, in fact, you already need a lot more investment in shields than with armor.

Now mods for shield regeneration will be useful. If shieldgate is active (i.e. ready to protect you), you get 1 second to the shield recovery delay. That is, shields are now able to tank their HPS, which is useful against fast attacks, but will not save against strong ones (actually, this is why there is a shieldgate). But if the shieldgate is down, the delay in restoring the shield will be 4 seconds and it is very long.

Adaptation is now more useful for shields, as Tenno will no longer have the weaknesses and strengths of health and armor. Many opponents in the game have impact damage, which is very much demolishes the shields, and since DR adaptation worked in the amount of strengths and weaknesses, we could not get 90% of DR against impact. But there is another plus that the shields will have 15% DR by default, which will make it possible to accumulate adaptation more safely, since the DR values will be based on 15% to 91.5% DR.

Antitoxin. Slash damage is gone, thank the gods. But the toxin still ignores the shields. To protect yourself from it, you need to spend 1 regular slot that will give 45% DR against the toxin and an aura slot that will give 15% DR against the toxin. And there's another buff. Since now Tenno doesn't have the strengths and weaknesses of the flesh, it will now be a real 60% DR, not 10% DR because the toxin had a 50% bonus against the flesh. The only question is whether this will add up to adaptation, give invulnerability to toxin or not. Now, when you touch the ground, you get full invulnerability, because adaptation + 60%DR against the toxin = 150%. But when you jump, the crutch that is connected to the Aviator and that sets the 90% DR limit is activated.

Well, you need the volume of shields.

In any case, the shield tanky even without the -1 slot for normal shieldgate demands too much. But as I said earlier, I'm ready to lose the slot because it looks delicious. Or I'm ready for the fact that shieldgate will only protect from 1 hit and not give invulnerability.

Edited by zhellon
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1 hour ago, zhellon said:

Adaptation is now more useful for shields, as Tenno will no longer have the weaknesses and strengths of health and armor. Many opponents in the game have impact damage, which is very much demolishes the shields, and since DR adaptation worked in the amount of strengths and weaknesses, we could not get 90% of DR against impact.

But there is another plus that the shields will have 15% DR by default, which will make it possible to accumulate adaptation more safely, since the DR values will be based on 15% to 91.5% DR.

it's about the relative difference, not an abstract number. starting from 1.5 and ending at 0.6 is less effective than starting at 1.0 and ending at 0.9, yes. but it's not about the abstract 90% value, it's about that there is less of a relative difference.

that's actually not a plus - the Shield would be objectively better if it was just __% larger in raw magnitude than by having DR. since Shields use total Capacity for mechanics already and will for more mechanics soon. i don't want random arbitrary DR on my Shields i'd rather just have more Shields.

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

Antitoxin.

that is far from a necessity. Shields aren't a replacement for Health, they are an additional system.

having less things bypass Shields is a risky proposition - Shield bypassing Damage is a significant component in making Health more relevant, so that Players can't ignore one in favor of the other. we'll just have to wait and see.

Edited by taiiat
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2 минуты назад, taiiat сказал:

that is far from a necessity. Shields aren't a replacement for Health, they are an additional system.

You have 8 slots + 1 aura + adnin exilus. You never have room for an additional defense system. You should always choose one thing to have room for improving abilities, or drop protection altogether in favor of abilities (which makes some characters very op due to invulnerability and invisibility).

Therefore, in order not to invest in health and armor (which may not be there), you should use an antitoxin or avoid the toxin in all ways, or use a different type of DR, which again is not available to everyone.

46 минут назад, taiiat сказал:

it's about the relative difference, not an abstract number. starting from 1.5 and ending at 0.6 is less effective than starting at 1.0 and ending at 0.9, yes. but it's not about the abstract 90% value, it's about that there is less of a relative difference.

that's actually not a plus - the Shield would be objectively better if it was just __% larger in raw magnitude than by having DR. since Shields use total Capacity for mechanics already and will for more mechanics soon. i don't want random arbitrary DR on my Shields i'd rather just have more Shields.

Here it is important to understand that the volume of shields will simply give EHP, which will make the shields act the same way as health. But in the new system, again, this is done differently. You don't really need DR if you are trying to avoid damage and the new shields are designed to protect you from small damage due to low charging delay and protect you from a mistake with shieldgate. Even with all the DR, you can't make facetank better than it would with HP, but it's just a different mechanic and some people will like it more than EHP health and armor. This system will simply allow you to discard healing items.

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