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The Kuva "Larvling" System


iHateOnions
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So i woke up today, booted up my PC and decided to hunt some kuva liches, after i killed a few larvlings i got the weapon i need, i stabbed the larvling with my parazon and finished the mission just to go back to my orbiter and find out that i didn't get any lich what so ever, i said: "eeeh... whatever, i'll just keep trying until i get another one"... *Sigh* and that's been the case for the past 6 hours... SIX WHOLE HOURS!!! killing larvling after larvling after larvling, i could've finished 2-3 kuva "Liches" in that time but the game says: "Nooooo, that was too easy, let's make you suffer a bit alot more >:))"

I think it's safe to say that it's not funny anymore, spending more time getting the lich i want than actually finishing it and call it a day, especially when that i keep getting 25% bonus every time.

My solution: just give the players what they want, let them choose what weapon they want to pursuit, it's bad enough that we can't control the weapon bonus and ephemeras, not to mention that the hunt itself takes between 3-4 hours to complete because of the randomness of the requiem mods.

I hope whoever reads this takes it into consideration, Less RNG = More Progress!

Thanks.

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A not 100% choice but still RNG reducing solution that could work is giving the larveling a weapon of the category that killed it. A rifle kill would give a rifle, a shotgun kill give a shotgun, a melee kill give a melee, etc...
Alternatively, the kill with a grineer weapon that own a Kuva variant could guarantee the Kuva variant of said weapon, it encourage players owning the non-Kuva version first and make the unique Kuva weapons (Bramma, Ayanga, Chakkhurr) and bit more uniques.

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26 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

A not 100% choice but still RNG reducing solution that could work is giving the larveling a weapon of the category that killed it. A rifle kill would give a rifle, a shotgun kill give a shotgun, a melee kill give a melee, etc...

Too much complexity and do you really think D.E. is going to let such a element work which can straight up make some weapons be 100% pick guaranteed like the Bramma or Shieldegg?

The best way was a method i suggested too many times in many threads. JUST SPLIT THEM UP TO BE PLANET SPECIFIC TABLES. This would be the easiest way for them to split them into groups of about 3 to 5 weapons, without needing to make it unnecessarily complicated, Try to think about how much coding they would have to setup especially for situations that might cause bugs like Enemies being killed by warframe abilities, pets, allies, arch-guns, installments, specters or even a ordis turret. Which might sound complicated and the Arch-gun one might sound weird but its a whole lot of weapons that would have to be sorted out after d.e. were to even set up 4 categories to act as the first sorting check.

Aka it would be a bunch of ridiculous coding that could easily create plenty of bugs.

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Alternatively, the kill with a grineer weapon that own a Kuva variant could guarantee the Kuva variant of said weapon, it encourage players owning the non-Kuva version first and make the unique Kuva weapons (Bramma, Ayanga, Chakkhurr) and bit more uniques.

Fix the other crap, D.E. needs to focus on first and lets stop with complicated suggestions that will likely just result in them not finishing it up completely or making it even in a worst form, like it only does a MINOR RNG-SUS adjustment (Which we all know how much people love the void trace system). Just as i have spammed in many of my posts. K.I.S.S. structure should be enforced in any gameplay design to allow a simple base to work with and to prevent it from spaghetti code situations as much as possible.

I mean thar is still:

  • The time length it takes for the murmur grind with barely anything to break up the boring spam, different mission types matter barely any & forcing yourself to stay longer in a mission to camp for murmurs is kind of stupid.

 

  • Being forced to farm special relics completely unrelated to prime parts & forma, just to farm a special bunch of mods, just to make sure you have atleast one copy of all 8 of those special mods, at the bare MINIMUM in order to guarantee you do not need to run back  immediately until you burn some up on at the very minimum, 3 liches, which occurs more often then you think.

 

  • The very paultry B.slaps to what basically made the kuva liches, the freaking kuva. Which feels like it should of been the main attraction of taking down a kuva lich, getting a large amount of kuva for the huge time sink it takes to take down a lich, but even with the improvements, the amount you get is rather abyssmal. Which almost makes me feel like that even if thralls gave out a bit of kuva also, it still would be not worth-while.

 

  • Not to mention the fact that Kuva liches pilfering your resources makes NO DAMN SENSE, because they make no use of it, nor due they get any other stockpile of resources from other locations. Where its just them having a cheap excuse to harass you, when even with the pilfering of loot, they amount to jack sheet on being annoyances, especially when even before all these improvements, it was quite easy to avoid them to begin with. Which is why i kept poking the idea of the lich should atleast pile up resources other then yours or multiply what it took from you, based on its own rank, when you finally defeat them for good.

Plus do not even get me started on the whole kuva lich `coming to your rescue gag` or the fact we can`t bring them on to the railjack to serve as minor distractions against boarding parties, have them man turrets, help with ship repairs or even restock the forge when ammo gets low.

Edited by Avienas
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il y a 10 minutes, Avienas a dit :

Try to think about how much coding they would have to setup especially for situations that might cause bugs like Enemies being killed by warframe abilities, pets, allies, arch-guns, installments, specters or even a ordis turret.

Nothing complicated, the game already track what weapon category you used to kill an enemy since somes arcanes use it as a condition.
About kills not made by a weapon, it would just lead to a 100% random weapon, which would give a reliable way to farm for a Kuva weapon if you own no weapon of its category.
 

il y a 13 minutes, Avienas a dit :

The best way was a method i suggested too many times in many threads. JUST SPLIT THEM UP TO BE PLANET SPECIFIC TABLES. This would be the easiest way for them to split them into groups of about 3 to 5 weapons, without needing to make it unnecessarily complicated,

It would be a simple solution sure, but not a good one.
The idea of basing weapon drop on weapon that killed the larvling make it intuitive and easy to remember. If you are a new player and see you got 3 shotguns after killing 3 larvlings with shotgun, you will rapidely understand why this happened and may try other categories to figure out it work this way.

If you tie the weapons to specific planet like you suggest, it just has no specific pattern or logic you can remember, so you will just end up brainlessly search for drop locations on wiki instead of playing the game.
The same already happen with the current elemental bonus on Lich. It's obvious that Saryn is toxin, Volt electricity or Rhino impact, but nothing really explain why Khora is toxin, Valkyr electricity, even worst, Oberon is toxin while his kit is around radiation... It just have been decided this way and there is no specific logic you can remember.
 

il y a 19 minutes, Avienas a dit :

(Which we all know how much people love the void trace system)

I dont know if it's irony, but Void Traces is definitely one the best system in the game, it's how the requiem system work, and that's how everything in the game should work.
You start with RNG based stuff, can drop what you want with low chances but for each try you gather a specific resource that let you reduce/delete the RNG and get what you want after a specific amount of time.

Overall, it's a sort of progression based system to avoid frustration low drop rates can provide, but you still can be surprised by the rare drop which can come earlier, it got benefit of both systems.

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2 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

Nothing complicated, the game already track what weapon category you used to kill an enemy since somes arcanes use it as a condition.
About kills not made by a weapon, it would just lead to a 100% random weapon, which would give a reliable way to farm for a Kuva weapon if you own no weapon of its category.

Because of D.E.`s track record on getting stuff done. This is why i rather they keep things bare bones simple to reduce the time it takes for them to get it actually done and the possibility of them having dozens of bugs to occur.

  • Weapon pool gets decided by what faction is the planet of. Plain and simple, nothing complex and allows some rng-sus to stay without having unfair results based on weapon pool types.
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It would be a simple solution sure, but not a good one.
The idea of basing weapon drop on weapon that killed the larvling make it intuitive and easy to remember. If you are a new player and see you got 3 shotguns after killing 3 larvlings with shotgun, you will rapidely understand why this happened and may try other categories to figure out it work this way.

Need i REMIND how easy it is for them to fk up the most simple of things like the FACT they could not put cautious shot to work on lenz & bramma and they up and declared that they were just going to make a entirely new mod instead of taking the simple approach of just tacking the weapons on the list OR a more proper way todo it, simply use a explosive affix category for explosive weapons to be what cautious shot determines what it can be equipped on and what it cannot?

I mean i still do not even get why the fk Ignis even counts as a explosive weapon, despite it being a beam weapon.

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If you tie the weapons to specific planet like you suggest, it just has no specific pattern or logic you can remember, so you will just end up brainlessly search for drop locations on wiki instead of playing the game.

It is alot easier to work with since how many times do they add planets VS how many times do they add new weapons? Every time they add new weapons, they would have to do additional checks to make sure that weapon would apply the category checks for kuva thrall kill designations. Which with planets it is atleast more fixed and D.E. is already a piece of crap at forcing us to use wikias to search for info since they do not really put any tutorial systems in.

Expecting D.E. to put in a tutorial system for every new mode they introduce is the same as expecting them to ship an update without any bugs, its a fking quintuple miracle when it occurs and its better to have D.E. keep to a more static approach and have people follow the same logic. Plus Kuva Liches is not some low level content, so players should already be expected to be well-versed in actually reading up on things, just like how you need to READ UP on what kind of warframe family group does specific elemental types.

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The same already happen with the current elemental bonus on Lich. It's obvious that Saryn is toxin, Volt electricity or Rhino impact, but nothing really explain why Khora is toxin, Valkyr electricity, even worst, Oberon is toxin while his kit is around radiation... It just have been decided this way and there is no specific logic you can remember.

Lets avoid getting into this mad-ness of discussion piece, since there is still the issue on why Slash, Puncture, Blast, Corrosive, Gas & Viral are not any types at all either. Which honestly i would say D.E. needs to remove impact, Radiation & Magnetic and just have Kuva liches only focus on being the 4 single elemental types to keep things less complex then it already is.

Sadly with the presence of the ephemeras for those 3 types now present, D.E. would need to put those in some other way and then the mess of providing people with some kind of voucher to re-select thar kuva weapons to one of the 4 remaining types to remove the magnetic/radiation/impact type kuva lich bonus elemental weapons.

Quote

I dont know if it's irony, but Void Traces is definitely one the best system in the game, it's how the requiem system work, and that's how everything in the game should work.

For FKs sake be glad you are not in the same room as i am, because I would of gave you back slap to the face HARD for such a comment. Void traces is an additional layer of grind to influence a still obvious bad drop rate system and the gain speed of void traces is so abysmal without purposely using boosters to jump it to a respectable level. But what is quite literally a 1 in 25 dice roll between the 6~30 value it can roll per rotation is bad in general.

If a game has to lean heavily to rng-sus system, it needs better modifiers such as the level of the fissure, the tier of the relic, the refinement of the relic and how deep have you gone on actually for farming it. I could easily link once again a certain video which points out that D.E. needs to make rewards actually scale, but clearly your in a delusion on a poorly designed system is fine, just like the same b.s. as people keep trying to defend market chat which is in some need of improvements that can be as simple as splitting it up into several sub-channels to regulate into more manageable sections such as one for rivens, one for prime parts/sets, one for arcanes and one for everything else.

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You start with RNG based stuff, can drop what you want with low chances but for each try you gather a specific resource that let you reduce/delete the RNG and get what you want after a specific amount of time.

If we were actually gathering said `resources` at a respectable pace, then that would not be an issue. But considering the going speed it takes to get enough traces for just popping a SINGLE radiant relic is between 4 to 16.6666~ rounds. Its kind of stupid to expect people to spam that many rounds when barely want to even go past 1-2 rounds and sometimes 4 in rare cases, excluding people who intentionally are running farming parties. Void Trace system in its current functionality incentizes people to do long runs, but no one fking wants to do long runs, which makes it a contradictory system.

This is why, before D.E. ever released the relic system, i would of rather they never of brought in relic share and void traces, so people would not of been spoiled by such things. With it now, i would rather D.E. scrap the relic share system and replace it with people getting 3 rolls on thar own relic that can have up to 2 of the same pick but never 3 of the same pick, in order to get rid of this need for 4 man parties. It has no respect to if 2 or 3 people want to continue going when one leaves or for just a single person who can do the endless mission by themself fine, when everyone else decided to leave early and miss out on better gain rates.

While also for the void trace system to have the number of people IN the party to straight up boost the void trace gain value for EVERYONE(which up to a +100% void trace gain rate for a full party would be extremely motivational), none of this, if someone picks yer relic, only you get a bonus b.s.,  If everyone benefits, then everyone will be motivated to continue playing then just see 4 common prime junk and then just want to peace out from that instant of frustration.

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Overall, it's a sort of progression based system to avoid frustration low drop rates can provide, but you still can be surprised by the rare drop which can come earlier, it got benefit of both systems.

Do you really think people want to deal tedious grinding, with gacha on top of gacha? NO! Take a look at railjack and can you say with a straight face that people enjoyed low drop rate railjack salvage, that had a random chance of a certain perk on top of a random % value for its MKIII modifier? Its obvious no one enjoyed that sheet, just as much as people did not like the fact that kuva lich weapons had a random modifier bonus tied to a piece of content that takes quite a few hours just to down a single lich in the best case scenario of grinding them.

A proper progression system at its best is simple: Get resources in some way, invest them in a category and you permanently unlock said category. Whether its to gain a stat bonus, access to making a item that could be useful for you or leads into unlocking an even more powerful item in the process. Drop rates and RNG-sus values should never be a defining factor in progression systems, At best they are a side benefit that only work when the drop rates of said goods are common enough or its actually possible to heavily modify the odds of said goods dropping, Use Borderlands 3 as a good reference to this, We do not really have any of that since warframe itself has pretty much skirted by and ignored putting in improvements it should of gotten long ago before people started getting sick of the game.

 

It took quite a bit of time for some more tolerable improvements to be put into kuva liches, but you have to remember they tried to skirt by with kuva lich trading, valence `transfer` and scrapping a lich once in a while. Where fusion is still honestly not that good of a system since once again, the core gameplay loop of kuva liches is still a tedious mess, Since D.E. decided to clearly scrap the idea of Kuva Liches being an actual god damn nemesis, when now they are just simply a RE-vengeance bully because you pushed them down to take thar lunch money a single time. So instead they are literally just some creepy stalker troll of a bully who harasses you.

Edited by Avienas
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il y a 15 minutes, Avienas a dit :

Because of D.E.`s track record on getting stuff done. This is why i rather they keep things bare bones simple to reduce the time it takes for them to get it actually done and the possibility of them having dozens of bugs to occur.

  • Weapon pool gets decided by what faction is the planet of. Plain and simple, nothing complex and allows some rng-sus to stay without having unfair results based on weapon pool types.

Need i REMIND how easy it is for them to fk up the most simple of things like the FACT they could not put cautious shot to work on lenz & bramma and they up and declared that they were just going to make a entirely new mod instead of taking the simple approach of just tacking the weapons on the list OR a more proper way todo it, simply use a explosive affix category for explosive weapons to be what cautious shot determines what it can be equipped on and what it cannot?

It's not a valid argument, you can't say something simple can't happen because devs can't do simple things (plus it's insulting for them).
 

il y a 16 minutes, Avienas a dit :

I mean i still do not even get why the fk Ignis even counts as a explosive weapon, despite it being a beam weapon.

The only reason you could consider it count as an explosive weapon is because you can equip Firestorm on it. And the reason it can equip the said mod is because it has a blast radius to increase, not because it count as an explosive weapon, like Opticor does.
The real question is why Simulor, Phatasma and Shedu can't use the mod too ?
 

il y a 23 minutes, Avienas a dit :

It is alot easier to work with since how many times do they add planets VS how many times do they add new weapons? Every time they add new weapons, they would have to do additional checks to make sure that weapon would apply the category checks for kuva thrall kill designations. Which with planets it is atleast more fixed and D.E. is already a piece of crap at forcing us to use wikias to search for info since they do not really put any tutorial systems in.

Expecting D.E. to put in a tutorial system for every new mode they introduce is the same as expecting them to ship an update without any bugs, its a fking quintuple miracle when it occurs and its better to have D.E. keep to a more static approach and have people follow the same logic. Plus Kuva Liches is not some low level content, so players should already be expected to be well-versed in actually reading up on things, just like how you need to READ UP on what kind of warframe family group does specific elemental types.

It's the total opposite.
Since weapons are already classed by categories (we see this in modding and sortie modifiers), there is absolutely nothing more to do, while a planet based system would need the whole drop table to change every time a Kuva weapon is added.
Also, the weapon category based system avoid the need of a tutorial, since it's simple and intuitive stuff you can figure out yourself.
 

il y a 26 minutes, Avienas a dit :

Lets avoid getting into this mad-ness of discussion piece, since there is still the issue on why Slash, Puncture, Blast, Corrosive, Gas & Viral are not any types at all either. Which honestly i would say D.E. needs to remove impact, Radiation & Magnetic and just have Kuva liches only focus on being the 4 single elemental types to keep things less complex then it already is.

Sadly with the presence of the ephemeras for those 3 types now present, D.E. would need to put those in some other way and then the mess of providing people with some kind of voucher to re-select thar kuva weapons to one of the 4 remaining types to remove the magnetic/radiation/impact type kuva lich bonus elemental weapons.

It's for balance and build diversity.

  • Slash, corrosive, gas and viral would be too strong since they are already the most used elements.
  • Magnetic and rad are the least useful combined element status, so allow them as base damage for 3 elements on the same weapon could be interesting.
  • Impact is the least wanted physical damage but can sometime be good for free stun on high status full elemental weapons like Nukor, but mess up with the status distribution because it weight more than blast (which is probably not there for this reason).

Overall, you have the choice between :

  • Regular element for more damage and any "normal" elemental combination
  • Magnetic and rad, which are not super good combined element but allow for some unique elemental combinations
  • Impact if you want free stun on high status weapons which don't already have impact.
     
il y a 36 minutes, Avienas a dit :

For FKs sake be glad you are not in the same room as i am because you would of got a back slap to the face HARD for such a comment. Void traces is an additional layer of grind to influence a still obvious bad drop rate system and the gain speed of void traces is so abyssmal without purposely using boosters to jump it to a respectable level. But what is quite literally a 1 in 25 dice roll between the 6~30 value it can roll per rotation is bad in general.

If a game has to lean heavily to rng-sus system, it needs better modifiers such as the level of the fissure, the tier of the relic, the refinement of the relic and how deep have you gone on actually for farming it. I could easily link once again a certain video which points out that D.E. needs to make rewards actually scale, but clearly your in a delusion on a poorly designed system is fine, just like the same b.s. as people keep trying to defend market chat which is in some need of improvements that can be as simple as spliting it up into several sub-channels to regulate into more managable sections such as one for rivens, one for prime parts/sets, one for arcanes and one for everything else.

If we were actually gathering said `resources` at a respectable pace, then that would not be an issue. But considering the going speed it takes to get enough traces for just popping a SINGLE radiant relic is between 4 to 16.6666~ rounds. Its kind of stupid to expect people to spam that many rounds when barely want to even go past 1-2 rounds and sometimes 4 in rare cases, excluding people who intentionally are running farming parties. Void Trace system in its current functionality incentizes people to do long runs, but no one fking wants to do long runs, which makes it a contradictory system.

This is why, before D.E. ever released the relic system, i would of rather they never of brought in relic share and void traces, so people would not of been spoiled by such things. With it now, i would rather D.E. scrap the relic share system and replace it with people getting 3 rolls on thar own relic that can have up to 2 of the same pick but never 3 of the same pick, in order to get rid of this need for 4 man parties. It has no respect to if 2 or 3 people want to continue going when one leaves or for just a single person who can do the endless mission by themself fine, when everyone else decided to leave early and miss out on better gain rates.

While also for the void trace system to have the number of people IN the party to straight up boost the void trace gain value for EVERYONE(which up to a +100% void trace gain rate for a full party would be extremely motivational), none of this, if someone picks yer relic, only you get a bonus b.s.,  If everyone benefits, then everyone will be motivated to continue playing then just see 4 common prime junk and then just want to peace out from that instant of frustration.

Do you really think people want to deal tedious grinding, with gacha on top of gacha? NO! Take a look at railjack and can you say with a straight face that people enjoyed low drop rate railjack salvage, that had a random chance of a certain perk on top of a random % value for its MKIII modifier? Its obvious no one enjoyed that sheet, just as much as people did not like the fact that kuva lich weapons had a random modifier bonus tied to a piece of content that takes quite a few hours just to down a single lich in the best case scenario of grinding them.

I understand your point and how you see a lot of RNG, but that's not really true.

Right now, you have a 2% base drop chance for rare parts, but each relic also give a resource you can use later if you want to increase the rare drop chance of a relic to 10%. Also you can play with a squad and share relic, so you can further increase the chance of getting the item you want if all the squad have the same relic.
So it's a not so bad RNG system, but if you are unlucky you can increase the drop chance by a lot with a resource you get from opening relics. In the case you are the least possible luck, you will get enough resources for a radiant relic after 17 runs, and then if you're playing in squad, be able the refine 4 relics for a 34.39% chance to obtain what you want, so 1/3 chances. If you are fast enough, you can run a capture mission in less than 80s (40s play time, 10s choosing reward, 30s of loading and restart mission), so considering you would get it after the 3rd drop, it would take approximately 1h and 4min to farm a single rare item in the worst scenario.


So it's a RNG based system that can turn in a progression based one if you are really unlucky, and for the most unlucky, it's only about 1h to get their rare reward, which is definitely ok. 
 

il y a 59 minutes, Avienas a dit :

A proper progression system at its best is simple: Get resources in some way, invest them in a category and you permanently unlock said category. Whether its to gain a stat bonus, access to making a item that could be useful for you or leads into unlocking an even more powerful item in the process. Drop rates and RNG-sus values should never be a defining factor in progression systems, At best they are a side benefit that only work when the drop rates of said goods are common enough or its actually possible to heavily modify the odds of said goods dropping, Use Borderlands 3 as a good reference to this, We do not really have any of that since warframe itself has pretty much skirted by and ignored putting in improvements it should of gotten long ago before people started getting sick of the game.

Actually this is what Void Traces and Lich systems are, a progression based system, but it's a matter of point of view here. What you see is a layers of RNG which lead in a super long process if you are unlucky, while you could see a progression based system that can be interrupted earlier if you are luck and drop what you want.
With this system, you can also speed up the process by being better/faster in non-endless missions like extermination/capture, or in Disruption.

Also, Borderlands 3 is exactly one the example where increasing the difficulty for better loot just doesn't work. The game is not difficult on Mayhem 4 but still increase the drop, so you just spend less time farming at the cost of most tanky enemies, but it still doesn't provide more difficulty. You just trade time wasted farming legendaries for time wasted shooting at tanky enemies, instead of getting a more difficult game.

 

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33 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

It's for balance and build diversity.

  • Slash, corrosive, gas and viral would be too strong since they are already the most used elements.
  • Magnetic and rad are the least useful combined element status, so allow them as base damage for 3 elements on the same weapon could be interesting.
  • Impact is the least wanted physical damage but can sometime be good for free stun on high status full elemental weapons like Nukor, but mess up with the status distribution because it weight more than blast (which is probably not there for this reason).

When the fk has Warframe ever been about balance? Its a full on PvE game that has left conclave in to rot like a piece of crap. Plus i rather try avoiding go over every single element that literally gives a middle finger to the idea of balance when Geneva convention might as well be broken dozens of times over between frames like Saryn, Mesa, Vauban(kind of) and in the opposite direction we got situations with Banshee and Ember 2.0 got its 4th utterly destroyed only to end up getitng some of her 1.0 kit back and now turning into a new kind of monster with her 3.0 version.

Its just a matter of time for Equinox and similar frames to get gutted if D.E. continues to aim for `balance.`

Either way the fact puncture did not did not even get accounted for despite the fact its the physical type that is suppose to be good against grineer, is kind of a idiotic call to pull off the balance card for how piss poor kuva liches were designed.

THE REAL FACT IS THEY ONLY MADE EPHEMERA FOR THOSE ELEMENTS AND DECIDED TO RUSH KUVA LICHES OUT THE DOOR JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH RAILJACK. That is the most logical explanation then pulling the balance is B.S. card and you can expect that to easily be corrected if all of a sudden `corpus liches` introduce some of those missing damage types.

But lets be honest, only Electric & Toxin matter. Because everyone knows the only 2 dual elementals that are useful in any way are Corrosive & Viral. All other elementals have piss-poor status proc effects or do not even stack with procs and ones like Gas seem good to make a DoT cloud but that tends to take too long when you can just rip the armor off of bulky enemies and anything without a shield is going to take neutral damage anyway(since damage penalties have more of an impact then getting bonus damage on weapons that likely can YEET most enemies due to crits already), While anything that gives its health cut in half, is a better form of status proc when the enemy is NOT straight up immune to it, when Bullsheet levels of damage reduction to armor is not in the way at all.

 

Not to mention Impact AND puncture are usually IPS values that people purposely rather have NEGATIVE riven mods for because slash procs true damage and stacks, which beats out piss-poor rag doll and making enemies deal less damage. Which once again, matters little when you have easy ways to C.C. the enemies, move fast enough where thar DPS does not matter or you kill them before they can do any real DPS on you. Which pretty much means unless puncture procs can massively reduce bombard or similar missile B.S. damage, its still likely going to matter little at all, cause even 10% of a bombard`s overpowered missile will still yeet anything without super durability measures to NOPE.avi that crap.

33 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Overall, you have the choice between :

  • Regular element for more damage and any "normal" elemental combination
  • Magnetic and rad, which are not super good combined element but allow for some unique elemental combinations
  • Impact if you want free stun on high status weapons which don't already have impact.

Again, there is no choice. Builds dic-tate the most efficient setups to do said missions and Corrosive & Viral will pretty much trump any other setup in literally 99.999% of the situations ,with only situations like Sortie, where you might run into enemies with b.s. like enhanced shields to be absurd on so many levels. But even in that .001%, you can just use slash focus guns or hunter munitions or just straight up bring a Mag or Hildryn or similar frame that YEET drains shields to utterly negate the excuse that would make you not bring viral to YEET the corpus.

People can say they want to go with a particular element, but since mods will always mix with any extra-element present on a weapon unless its more of a gimmick then a stat on the weapon page (which is usually quite useless in those moments), you literally are forced to mix it with the first elemental mod you use and everyone knows running a weapon without elemental is just as bad of a gimping yourself as doing Grendel part farming missions are without some very cheesie setup to YEET the fact you are forced to use no mods at all for those missions.

33 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

I understand your point and how you see a lot of RNG, but that's not really true.

Stacks of Rng-sus on top of rngsus is always b.s. especially when said rng-sus is not in the same system(or more specifically the same mission itself for kuva liches). No one fking enjoys going to siphons with a chance of a relic to drop and then be forced to always run the flood variants for guranteed SINGLE. RELIC. DROPS. Which it was only made KIND of tolerable to get those relics when the thralls started dropping them, Which effectively negated the reason to do siphons/floods for kuva relics to begin with, since you can simply start a kuva lich whenever and start farming the relics from them at any time.

Then we have to go to an entirely different game mode of FISSURES just to farm one particular set of items just to ENABLE us to make attempts to kill the lich, which the only reason we would attempt to Do so early on is to get those murmur boosts of 10x or so since just getting 10 thrall kills is a pain in the arse where it can take between 1 to 3 missions and you have to do it half a dozen or a few dozens of times depending on your luck on what is a 1 in 8, then 1 in 7 and 1 in 6 chance in the most bog-standard odds on how to just be done with a lich. Plus the odds if you luck out on the revealed kill mods is the first one or not which you honestly do NOT want it to be the first one to negate any wheel spinning for the next few slots to save some time.

33 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:


Right now, you have a 2% base drop chance for rare parts, but each relic also give a resource you can use later if you want to increase the rare drop chance of a relic to 10%.

1 in 10 chance might as well be in the same meaning as 1 in 50. Its a piece of garbage odds and i think i already made my point that the amount of trace gain rating needs to be between a 2 to 5 rounds to get enough to radiant one relic, since no one cares about tier 2 or tier 3 refinement. its either INTACT (tier 1) for commons or RADIANT (tier 4) for everything else. taking between 4 to 17 rounds without using boosters is a b.s. time length and we all know its going to average more around 10 to 14 since you have to remember its a dice roll for traces themselves since your not boosting the minimum trace amount with resource boosters, your simply upping the number without changing the dice itself.

33 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Also you can play with a squad and share relic, so you can further increase the chance of getting the item you want if all the squad have the same relic.

Thats not en-abling better drop rates. Its  stacking B.S. with B.S. Because everyone has to bring a copy of the same relic as you do to ENABLE the odds of having extra dice rolls for the exact same item(Remember how Void key system where you only needed to bring one key to chase after multiple drops in a single run? Wink Wink???)Which funfact, the drop rates for specific relics tend to be b.s. which EN-ABLEs people to be even more lazy to NOT farm stacks of the same relic which is KIND OF IMPORTANT when chasing after drops that have 2%~10% drop rates. 

I mean for frock`s sake the chances to get a specific relic in the best way to farm is not that impressive and its only cause people can rush said content per round in 2-3 minutes or even less with a well-coordinated group. Seriously fact check the disruption reward table, 5% to 16% on pretty much every relic and it has the ADVANTAGE where you can get back-to-back of the same tier of relic over and over without needing to go thru an entire 4 rotations to reach the roll again.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Disruption

33 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

So it's a not so bad RNG system, but if you are unlucky you can increase the drop chance by a lot with a resource you get from opening relics. In the case you are the least possible luck, you will get enough resources for a radiant relic after 17 runs, and then if you're playing in squad, be able the refine 4 relics for a 34.39% chance to obtain what you want, so 1/3 chances. If you are fast enough, you can run a capture mission in less than 80s (40s play time, 10s choosing reward, 30s of loading and restart mission), so considering you would get it after the 3rd drop, it would take approximately 1h and 4min to farm a single rare item in the worst scenario.

Yanno whats a GOOD pity system? The ability to where you do something so many god damn times you just straight up exchange your tissues for the item you want. Aka something like how Final Fantasy 14 lets you straight up get the Extreme-difficulty, low drop rate mounts, if you fail to acquire it after 99 clears of the fight.

Now here`s another prime example of how many games make gear that can drop from hard content, a whole lot bearable: The fact you can just use crafting materials you ALWAYS get from the fight, to just straight up craft the items from the materials, instead of relying on a low-drop chance on a piece of content.

Also dont you dare FROCKING use capture as an example to speed run relics or fissures since fissures rotate on a entirely random basis, where you could end up with situations where only 2 fissures are up or other times where fissures will have no endless missions up or no non-endless up. Which means even MORE retarded rng-sus that will       dic-tate if you will have the optimal fissure farmings or not, regardless if you do it with randos or prepare a group. 

33 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

So it's a RNG based system that can turn in a progression based one if you are really unlucky, and for the most unlucky, it's only about 1h to get their rare reward, which is definitely ok. 

DROP systems are NOT progression systems. Items can drop which can improve your stats in a game, but in plenty of games you can just craft the items, enhance the items, apply runes/affixes/enchants/whatever. Gear thru a rng-sus system is just the same thing as resources in the rng-sus system, It just leads to the same b.s., when you have no other option to work with to improve your gear or a game company think its a swell idea to break the normal way people got gear, by frocking on building them or waiting for a hippie to return from deep-space to sell fancy items or those situations where events will reward you with the items or the parts are gotten as `loot rewards` or the parts (AKA basically resources) will drop to where you can actually assemble the dang things.

Drop systems can be linked to progression systems, but they are NEVER a progression system. Plus considering the average attention span of typical warframe players is a whole lot less then those that play games like Final fantasy 14, Destiny and so many other games that involve loot, its kind of expected that none of them would likely immerse themselves in a 1 hour long, non-stop tedious grind without blind hype on something that seems SO AMAZING to adrenalinate(yes i spelt it that way intentionally) themselves into it...

...Too bad expecting people to do that same amount of grind over and over as a ISLAND farm without anything SUBSTANTIAL to get from it like progressing to higher quality gear or minimizing the grind on the current system so it goes extremely faster or get alot of OTHER things to compliment it kind of ruins that `Island Grind`.

Especially when there is nothing like amazing sound tracks, actually exciting gameplay while doing the farm and fights that actually feel engaging instead of playing a lawn mowing simulator blind-folded.

33 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:


Actually this is what Void Traces and Lich systems are, a progression based system, but it's a matter of point of view here. What you see is a layers of RNG which lead in a super long process if you are unlucky, while you could see a progression based system that can be interrupted earlier if you are luck and drop what you want.
With this system, you can also speed up the process by being better/faster in non-endless missions like extermination/capture, or in Disruption.

Already answered the point, Both are island systems(void traces & R.Relic farming) on top of island systems (relic farming & R.Mod farming) on top of island systems (Ducat or prime set farming & Murmur farming) on top of some of some more island farming (Farming plat to get specific parts cause fk rngsus system & Lich farming) which all require repetition with no real end cause they will constantly demand you to do more cause of badly designed systems.

Get the frock outta here with your White knight b.s. if you cant even realize on how many island stacks are even present.

33 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Also, Borderlands 3 is exactly one the example where increasing the difficulty for better loot just doesn't work.

  • Mayhem mode.
  • Guardian rank, such as the +luck % stat
  • Loaded Dice artifact equip
  • Optimizing loot gain using features like offline mode
  • Optimizing speed of gaining loot by settting up customized builds.
  • Actually giving zero fks about perfect % roll stuff and settling for stuff that achieves the base minimum of what you need to YEET stuff with.

There is so many factors i could put in and you need to remember borderlands 3 is a proper looter game which gives you MANY MANY MAAAAAANY guns and its only when you are at the very frocking end then you need to straight up focus on farming for those specific weapon types rolls for your low-drop rate legendary guns which if you been payig attention to day 1 of borderlands 3, many frocking ways were possible with the loot and now Gearbox put alot of that loot straight up into more specific boss pools so people do not need to rely on world-drop rates. Which basically means unlike something like Warframe, you could still get specific drops from almost any boss as long as they are on the world drop table. Which basically means your not ISLANDED to one specific boss if you just wanna have fun and enjoy when you do something like the Handsome jackpot DLC and end up running into about 4 to 5 copies of the new legendary class mods for both Amara & FL4K EACH in the early parts of the game, without mayhem mode on at all.

 

33 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

The game is not difficult on Mayhem 4 but still increase the drop, so you just spend less time farming at the cost of most tanky enemies, but it still doesn't provide more difficulty. You just trade time wasted farming legendaries for time wasted shooting at tanky enemies, instead of getting a more difficult game.

The game is quite difficult in mayhem mode 4 if you do not have very durable setups and lets not forget its MAYHEM mode 3 that you want for the good drop rates, Mayhem mode 4 is a more generalized diffculty with less B.S. modifiers and enemies being more absurdly tankie to deal with and unique loot present on it. But kind of ends up with not as good rates for the usual stuff.

Plus there is a difference between content that is actually difficult and makes you really use your builds especially when more absurdly powerful stuff like Annoited enemies show up and plenty of bad-a22 type enemies. With warframe, all your really getting for higher level enemies is more difficult enemies doing the same exact jack SHEET, with maybe a moderate increase in the amount of credits & affinity they give. The drop rates for anything they drop at level 2 does not really change at all, when they are at level 200.

Anyway A certain Better Name Pending just posted a very interesting video literally just yesterday and i find it as a fine example that i might as well be reminded that bickering about this has no point, just as you bickering your white knight-delusion that Warframe`s systems are completely fine:

 

The ultimate point is, it doesn't frocking matter either way cause D.E. is just going to do whatever the frock they want and till a threat major enough that could screw them over a whole lot approaches, then they will just keep doing whatever the frock they want, regardless of how many times we flip that lever to point out issues. Because it took outrages over how pissed people were at over Kuva liches & Railjack, that caused them to do a bunch of fixes and now we are just getting a dev stream that seems FOCUSED on talking about fixes they plan to bring to warframe, but we all know that until D.E. commits some serious time to said fixes, we cannot be putting that knife away on the threat of more and more people leaving, to help prove the point that a player base freaking matters and if D.E. continues to just do what the frock they want without a care, then of course people will just leave for other looter games, even if said looter games have price tags on them or despite not having being released for global yet, would rather be tempted to make foreign accounts and use a unofficial translation service, to play a game like Phantasy Star online 2.

 

And yes i could easily quit warframe, but stockholm syndrome will not let me go till i have fully wheen myself away from the game, despite the fact i care about it as a long-time fan of it, especially with how long it has gone on and i would rather while i still care about it, that i would rather it not be some game that just gets abandoned because of b.s.ery kept occurring, that has been going on for years with said game.

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vor 8 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Erudite Prime:

You can trade for them you know

nice solution 👍

also think we should get more rng in the game for the normal weapons and warframes, i mean you can buy them, you not even have to find a trader, they can be bougth right out of the ingame store. mutch easier so it must be even better.

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1 hour ago, woisen said:

nice solution 👍

also think we should get more rng in the game for the normal weapons and warframes, i mean you can buy them, you not even have to find a trader, they can be bougth right out of the ingame store. mutch easier so it must be even better.

I genuinely don't see the big problem. There's tons of other things with even lower drop rates, like a lot of really important mods. Nobody complains about them because you can just trade for them if you're too lazy to play the game. What makes Larvlings different? 

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

I genuinely don't see the big problem. There's tons of other things with even lower drop rates, like a lot of really important mods. Nobody complains about them because you can just trade for them if you're too lazy to play the game. What makes Larvlings different? 

Most of those lower drop rates under 1% come from enemies that spawn multiple times in a mission or involve items that should realistically only drop once for a player. 

Anecdotal Math time: I have been trying to get a larvling to spawn with the specific weapon I want. This will be the same for every player once they are within 2 or 3 weapons left in the lich system, but in my case I am trying to get a Kuva Ayanga with cold. I'd say this is a very good combo, specifically for railjack, but doesn't seem to be a popular one where many players are going to convert that lich and wait for a buyer.

16 possibly weapons (this number will keep increasing) means a 6.25% chance for the larvling to spawn with that weapon (Technically 6.667 now that they shouldn't spawn duplicates back to back, and that number will keep decreasing as they add more kuva weapons). Cassini, Saturn Capture only takes a couple minutes to run through so the idea of farming for a certain weapon seems pretty straightforward and achievable, right? Not so far IMO. That 6.25-6.67% drop chance per mission equals about a 90% chance your weapon will spawn after ~36 missions and 99% after ~71 missions. Over the last few days I am currently up to 85+ missions with no Kuva Ayanga spawn...

H3dsh0t, a warframe content creator on YT, had a nice video recently explaining a tangental idea to this issue that really should be implemented more throughout warframe.. As much RNG as there is in warframe, there needs to be more safeguards to stop situations like mine above where a player may run the estimated amount of runs to produce an item, but the reality of probability is that there is also a chance it just does not spawn in a reasonable amount of tries because a 6.25% drop chance technically does not increase. The chance that you get a drop over the course of several missions increases your chance overall chance, but here I am at 85+ runs. Yay probability! The point H3dsh0t made was a basic way to counter this is give players tokens for each number of runs at a mission or reward, and make the item available for a token price relative to a reasonable capped number of tries. 

While an average of 36-71 runs to get a certain kuva weapon is already too high IMO, rewarding a player with that weapon at ~80 tries for example, would keep RNG in check.

Link to H3dsh0t's video I mentioned 

edit: I forgot to expand my point to trading, but basically while that is an alternative, it shouldn't be viewed as a true substitute just because the drop rates are too high. Players should have a realistic shot at getting something themselves without having to run one mission 100 times to get 1 kuva weapon for them. 

Edited by (PS4)d1771Hd
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vor einer Stunde schrieb (XB1)Erudite Prime:

I genuinely don't see the big problem. There's tons of other things with even lower drop rates, like a lot of really important mods. Nobody complains about them because you can just trade for them if you're too lazy to play the game. What makes Larvlings different? 

I would love to see that the kuva weapons from larvlings are like mods to farm, they can even be harder to get then imo, but you know if i get a larvling i can get everything from 25%-60% rng elemantal bonus on this weapon. and when i got it, there is still a 2-3h grind to get the weapon i maybe not want at all.

I also have to say, that i not see how trading help such a unfair system? Its like rivens, you can buy a good roll or you can play for it sure. But with bad luck in mind, you are always better off grinding the plat, the time investement to lvl up a 25% weapon with other low rolled weapons are just to high.

Edited by woisen
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49 minutes ago, woisen said:

I would love to see that the kuva weapons from larvlings are like mods to farm, they can even be harder to get then imo, but you know if i get a larvling i can get everything from 25%-60% rng elemantal bonus on this weapon. and when i got it, there is still a 2-3h grind to get the weapon i maybe not want at all.

I would honestly not mind if the kuva lich straight up starts at level 100+, as a trade off for it having much higher guranteed elemental bonus & maybe ephemera drop chances, since its not the difficulty of the lich that causes the annoyance, its the multi-layer island grind that only adding a display to the larvling at the start just acts as another minor island of repeats till you hit what you want. Its still annoying as H3adSh0t`s video explained, so many tedious elements that it makes it tiresome, especially the fact that Kuva lich is getting triple form durability aka:

  • Ferrite armor or standard grineer durability
  • Resistance/Immunity to certain elements which we all know how fun it is when it lands on Corrosive or elements you want to use to take down grineer
  • And of course being straight up immune to armor stripping and C.C. outside of things that proc slow in a semi-indirect fashion. Namely Rhino & Zenurik`s void blast slow as two prime ways to coax with lich b.s.

But that is taken care of with the good old forms of cheese. People use limbo to YEET interception & Thermia fracture. People use Volt shields, Quick-escape on k-drives and power spec`d harrow to YEET eidolons and people used Amesha invul & slow to YEET railjack fighters, with all the b.s. durability and free stack-able heal regen buff aura controversy. 

So until D.E. learns to make content with smart-ness, instead of just straight up making stuff have a bunch of immunity or damage resistance, then we are just going to yeet whatever we can to cut as many corners thru the content as possible. Whether its content taking way too long for a standard approach or abusing exploits to make things more manageable so it feels more like content instead of time wasting torture for not even half a penny in value.

Quote

I also have to say, that i not see how trading help such a unfair system? Its like rivens, you can buy a good roll or you can play for it sure. But with bad luck in mind, you are always better off grinding the plat, the time investement to lvl up a 25% weapon with other low rolled weapons are just to high.

Exactly, I am gotten to the point that any content that gets resolved thru TRADING for things, is an automatic fail because its relying on the monkey making shakespeare logic, You want people to be able to earn what is from the content, not have a single person out of a million monkeys manage to get close to writing shakespeare.

HELL, because of this whole valence fusion system, i feel like D.E. needs to bring the same system over for regular weapons and variant weapons. Because i find it extremely resource wasteful to be forced to dump all the potatoes, forma & adapters i had to put in a regular warframe & weapon to replace it with a prime/vandal/etc. when it is quite literally a direct upgrade in most cases. But thats just me pointing out that D.E. just made a system for a minor issue that most likely would never bring up that often since warframe never really relied on us getting duplicates of the same weapon, outside of making dual-wielding gun variants, which did not require forma investments before hand.

 

Never the less, its better to just peel up the plat to get a guranteed copy of an item over constantly shaking that cup full of dice to land on that one specific digit. Since just like with crafting gear and improving it into a OP master-piece, It will always beat out trying to waste your time chasing after a so-called super powerful sword, that you can only get as a drop. Which certainly the latter could be further ruined if it has bad durability, cannot be upgraded at all in any way, if it requires special materials for repairs and as repeated, when just straight up crafting a better weapon from common materials could yield a more controlled and stronger result, that could lead into eventually being able to make a even better weapon.

Sorry for that rantie kind of chunk of text, but its just me pointing out how warframe`s forma grind feels and how i see kuva lich weapon system spits on the grind to acquire good weapons, still demands you have to slap a bunch of grinding (5 forma, 1 potato & a exilus adapter) and still would be far from perfect due to the elemental % bonus.

Edited by Avienas
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