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Rebecca and Steve on keeping players happy, plus a little bit of preaching


(NSW)Greybones
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Please lock this thread, moderators. I won’t have time to check and respond in it.

Came across this while looking for a video for a different post.

I think pretty much all of it is interesting, particularly a few key points:

- How long Rebecca thinks people can play Warframe, and what Steve’s intention is regarding frequency of play.

- Their impression of the new player experience and what they try to do for the older players.

- The bizarre nature of showing content versus releasing content.

- The value of PoE (I’m assuming Plains of Eidolon, and by extension the early game content) to a veteran player.

- How they felt about hiring people back once Warframe became more financially stable, after those people had been laid off in the early days.

- Whether they playtest the game.

- And how they handle criticism and negative feedback.

https://youtu.be/9j3JeGPVStI

Worth a watch. They seem like cool people.

 

And once you watch it, I hope some of you will consider a question I wish to put to certain readers.

Watched it?

Great. Cause I’m gonna attack you with words, though I’m not proud of it.

Can you please point out the exact moment those two desperately wanted to make your gameplay experience a living, boring, frustrating hell? Can you point out the indicators that they really respect demands made of them, or anyone working with them?

Feedback is fantastic. Constructive criticism is awesome and can be really helpfull!

But what I’ve seen, not only in some posts in this general forum board but pretty much anywhere people can voice their opinion, is Arrogance.

Those two questions above aren’t what I want answered. The question I want answered is something the reader has to ask of themselves; “Am I (the reader) arrogant?”.  

I’d expect that the knee-jerk response will be “No way. This dude is way up on his high horse, trying to tell me how to live my life, making all these assumptions about me”. That’s fine, and assumptions suck, I agree (even as I make assumptions about what’s going through your mind. Sorry).

But if you could give it just a little bit of thought, beyond “Nah, not arrogant”, and if that helps your next post to be more thoughtful constructive criticism or positive feedback (because that stuff’s valuable!) and less satisfaction demanding, that would be

AMAZING!

Thanks for reading this chunk of text from some stranger on the internet

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
Gotta give thanks for those who read this. Also, hope some stranger using their video to make a point isn’t too awkward
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3 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Inb4 thread lock because apparently constantly ripping on the game Is fine, negativity is fine, ripping on eachother is fine, but if you dare say anything about it its "meta complaining" and you'll have 30 million people tell you that before a mod locks your thread and tells you that. 

You make a valid point but, it is meta complaining.  

I do support advising players to employ introspection though.  So many discussions would go better if being right and having people acknowledge that wasnt so important to many.  

To the OP; am I arrogant?  Well, in this day and age people don't utilize common definitions for words or concepts, which makes that question hard to definitively answer, unless you use the definition. 

ar·ro·gant
/ˈerəɡənt/
adjective
  1. having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.
    "he's arrogant and opinionated"

Personally, going by definition, no.  I am not arrogant.  I'm very aware that I'm a vocal minority within a vocal minority, and maybe even a few more layers of that, and that my gaming abilities aren't anything to brag about.  

Sadly, yes, this will probably get locked because it's a meta complaint topic (complaining about ither players) but it doesn't mean it's not a good topic. 

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2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

The really interesting part is how you two posters either haven’t watched the video, or you’ve seen it and haven’t acknowledged it. That was the important part. The other stuff can be erased entirely

 

14 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

No. Stop that. Do not be someone else who attacks your fellow forum readers/posters

cardi b ok GIF by Pepsi

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That was nearly a year ago. Look at what they've done, or rather, haven't done, in that time. I'm not going to speak towards who is or isn't arrogant. All I'll say is that players who have been here for 6-7 years have reasons why they view DE in the ways that they do, whether positive or negative. You're new to that.

IMO, the whole problem with Warframe stems from stubbornness to listen to community perspectives that challenge DE's vision and an unfamiliarity/unwillingness to familiarize themselves with a broad selection of games that are actually similar to Warframe (i.e. third person action games/third person shooters), and not just other looter shooters and grind-heavy games but IPs like Battlefront, Assassin's Creed (Black Flag and Origins in particular), Shadow of War, and Destiny 2, to name a few. And when it comes to drawing inspiration from some of these games, like Shadow of Mordor/War, DE isn't willing to commit to implementing a system that bears all the hallmarks of that game. Ultimately, imo, DE is way too focused on using RNG and grind to keep players engaged instead of creating immersive experiences that envelop the player in the world, story, and associated gameplay that reinforces that world and story.

I think Warframe's focus should shift away from RNG and grind and more towards a roleplaying focus, where gameplay is about immersing the player in the story being told and where players join factions and continue their story along with that of different factions. If DE would focus more on the sustained gameplay experience instead of simply RNG grind for reward items, I believe they could make more players happy. That also includes improving core gameplay systems like core tileset missions and core movement, gun-holding, and melee animations.

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most people dont even bother with constructive criticism on the forums these days, it was helpful, seen and actioned back in 2013/early 14 but after DE became financially stable the opinions on the forums simply dont matter, many of us simply accept it and use the forums for what it is meant to be used for... us mortals venting, ie: screaming into the void.

So yeah, just do as the rest of us do, say our piece, let it all out and feel a bit better, but accept nothing we do or say matters or has any impact at all, ride those waves till the end and see what happens, in a few years they might release something fun again.

If you watch soem of DE's older vids regarding their beginnings and how they tried to get started its funny how the opinions of others that stated they were too small to do big scale long term expansions all turned out to be true once they tried to "go big", their old lego-tech was far better, its just a shame its been left for dead rather than enhanced, they could have even gone for a clever lego-open world system that wouldnt have been static and boring within a week and we wouldnt have all this forced timegated within timegate nonsense.

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2 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

most people dont even bother with constructive criticism on the forums these days, it was helpful, seen and actioned back in 2013/early 14 but after DE became financially stable the opinions on the forums simply dont matter, many of us simply accept it and use the forums for what it is meant to be used for... us mortals venting, ie: screaming into the void.

So yeah, just do as the rest of us do, say our piece, let it all out and feel a bit better, but accept nothing we do or say matters or has any impact at all, ride those waves till the end and see what happens, in a few years they might release something fun again.

If you watch soem of DE's older vids regarding their beginnings and how they tried to get started its funny how the opinions of others that stated they were too small to do big scale long term expansions all turned out to be true once they tried to "go big", their old lego-tech was far better, its just a shame its been left for dead rather than enhanced, they could have even gone for a clever lego-open world system that wouldnt have been static and boring within a week and we wouldnt have all this forced timegated within timegate nonsense.

That's what those of us who wanted a more open gameplay experience wanted: not open world but tilesets with more open-air tiles: the same tileset system, but with more space in each tile.

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Should I get rid of the later part? I sort of figured that those who it didn’t apply to would comment on the video, and those who it did apply to would post about it (the preaching), but so far the posts have been about the preaching instead of the video. 

Sure it’s only three out of four so far, but I’m wondering if I should nip it in the bud

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
Clarification for what “It” is
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30 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Sadly, yes, this will probably get locked because it's a meta complaint topic

"Sadly"?

Nah, you misspelled "Thankfully".

As I always say, meta-whiners are even worse than normal whiners.

Not only do they still complain, they also think they are somehow better/more worthy. Awful way to be.

Edited by HugintheCrow
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3 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

The really interesting part is how you two posters either haven’t watched the video, or you’ve seen it and haven’t acknowledged it. That was the important part. The other stuff can be erased entirely

The video is almost a year old, my friend. I think everyone who wanted to watch it has already watched it and discussed it. Nothing wrong with bringing up an old video, but I don't understand the reasoning behind it.

Honestly, I find the "arrogance and feedback" topic to be far more interesting to discuss, but since you mentioned it can all be erased entirely I won't derail your thread by talking about it.

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A perspective to keep in mind is that Warframe has outlived its original design brief. It’s grown wildly beyond what it ever was in the first few updates, to the point that it’s overtaken the wildest dreams of the devs from like eight years ago, and that’s really cool....But.

 

There’s a developmental price to be paid for eight years of iterative development, and that’s the cumulative clunk of system on system on system, of power creep on power creep on nerf on power creep, etc. There are ways that Warframe works now that were never intended, mechanical outcomes which aren’t good for the game but which are buried too deep to be fixed.

 

More and more, I’m coming to the conclusion that in terms of mechanics, modding, damage, enemy AI and responses, the game needs a total overhaul, of the kind that would inspire panic in the community. 
 

Notice how I’m not saying ‘hurr durr, DE dumb’, I’m saying that Warframe has grown into an unwieldy monster, like an aircraft that took off as a biplane and stayed in flight for eight years being rebuilt on the go and is now a fifty ton bomber that can’t ever land.

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7 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Should I get rid of the later part? I sort of figured that those who it didn’t apply to would comment on the video, and those who it did apply to would post about it (the preaching), but so far the posts have been about the preaching instead of the video. 

Sure it’s only three out of four so far, but I’m wondering if I should nip it in the bud

giphy.gif

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I've seen this video before.

You are correct in saying that there is nothing in this video that explains the current complaints and attacks. And you are also correct in assuming that neither Reb nor Steve wanted to make this game a 'living, boring, frustrating hell'. However, that is what is happening, whether through malice or incompetence, so that is what we are going to complain about.

Should anyone attack specific DE members? Unless that specific member did something individually, as a private person, and not as a part of the company, then no. Attack the company, complain about the company, but never target the individual for what they do for the company.

But we do have to ask the question; "How long can actions be written off as incompetence before malice must be assumed?"

And I am afraid that DE, as a whole, is getting close to that point.

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Just now, Amazerath said:

The video is almost a year old, my friend. I think everyone who wanted to watch it has already watched it and discussed it. Nothing wrong with bringing up an old video, but I don't understand the reasoning behind it.

Honestly, I find the "arrogance and feedback" topic to be far more interesting to discuss, but since you mentioned it can all be erased entirely I won't derail your thread by talking about it.

That’s pretty cool, thanks.

Yeah, old videos get watched. I actually sort of forgot that, haha.

I wasn’t even searching for it specifically, but after watching it I wanted to bring it up again cause I figured it was a pretty good look into what they’re thinking about with regards to an always-present idea; keeping players happy. The trigger for actually posting it was looking through some of the more recent forum posts, and I thought it’d be a good idea to bring up a refresher that it’s hard.

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3 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

I've seen this video before.

You are correct in saying that there is nothing in this video that explains the current complaints and attacks. And you are also correct in assuming that neither Reb nor Steve wanted to make this game a 'living, boring, frustrating hell'. However, that is what is happening, whether through malice or incompetence, so that is what we are going to complain about.

Should anyone attack specific DE members? Unless that specific member did something individually, as a private person, and not as a part of the company, then no. Attack the company, complain about the company, but never target the individual for what they do for the company.

But we do have to ask the question; "How long can actions be written off as incompetence before malice must be assumed?"

And I am afraid that DE, as a whole, is getting close to that point.

I think it’s worth serious consideration whether the game developers would take action with malice as its driving force. I do not think they would.

Where would it come from?

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16 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

A perspective to keep in mind is that Warframe has outlived its original design brief. It’s grown wildly beyond what it ever was in the first few updates, to the point that it’s overtaken the wildest dreams of the devs from like eight years ago, and that’s really cool....But.

 

There’s a developmental price to be paid for eight years of iterative development, and that’s the cumulative clunk of system on system on system, of power creep on power creep on nerf on power creep, etc. There are ways that Warframe works now that were never intended, mechanical outcomes which aren’t good for the game but which are buried too deep to be fixed.

 

More and more, I’m coming to the conclusion that in terms of mechanics, modding, damage, enemy AI and responses, the game needs a total overhaul, of the kind that would inspire panic in the community. 
 

Notice how I’m not saying ‘hurr durr, DE dumb’, I’m saying that Warframe has grown into an unwieldy monster, like an aircraft that took off as a biplane and stayed in flight for eight years being rebuilt on the go and is now a fifty ton bomber that can’t ever land.

I respect your point. I’ve had similar thoughts myself regarding a complete overhaul. 

What a risk that’d be, though it could be awesome too.

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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Going to keep this brief:

OP, people don't care, some will always think they're right about calling developers lazy, that they don't care about their game/community... 

It's easier to criticize someone's work without providing actual feedback

Part of the dev team work is to figure out what the community wants, and that means dealing/ignoring "DE you suck" threads, and this goes for every single game forum

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2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I think it’s worth serious consideration whether the game developers would take action with malice as its driving force. I do not think they would.

Where would it come from?

Malice can be indirect. One can desire something for themselves (money, fame, etc.) and that desire can lead to malice towards others, even if that malice is not the key force. Malice may also come from an external source that forces another to act with malice.

For example, one might desire a promotion, thus leading one to try to discredit all others who are also trying to get that promotion. You don't have malice towards the individuals, but rather towards what they represent.

To address your question more specifically, I believe that while the individual devs have no malice towards their players, they have a general ignorance and incompetence that the company as a whole (and its stockholders) are exploiting with malice for the purpose of greed. Thus we get things like insane resource grinds and pay-to-skip specifically made for that exact grind (railjack repair drones), or things done to inflate and destabilize the platinum market. The devs themselves do not have a high-level understanding of economics, so they don't see what it is that they are being made to do.

However, one can only claim ignorance and incompetence for so long before it turns into being complicit. I don't know if the devs are at that point yet. Sometimes they notice things and fix them (mod drop boosters, repair drones). Other times they let things go on for far too long. I'm just one player; I can't make this sort of determination by myself. It's the sort of thing that a players as a group must figure out.

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16 minutes ago, (XB1)Rylor Threev said:

Going to keep this brief:

OP, people don't care, some will always think they're right about calling developers lazy, that they don't care about their game/community... 

It's easier to criticize someone's work without providing actual feedback

Part of the dev team work is to figure out what the community wants, and that means dealing/ignoring "DE you suck" threads, and this goes for every single game forum

Sure, but can you imagine if everyone had good solid feedback to give? Well thought-out, with research into how other games handle problems and what works and what doesn’t. If we had knowledge of what DE are dealing with it could be really cool to have everyone posting thoughts that fit within what’s possible.

Not to mention this goes beyond just posting in forums, this is a social interaction thing that I’d love to see more of just in general. The concept artists and effects teams and everyone dealing with the creation of a thing has to be good with expressing their feedback so that everyone can be on the same page and work towards the same goal, right?

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
Less preachy
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32 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Malice can be indirect. One can desire something for themselves (money, fame, etc.) and that desire can lead to malice towards others, even if that malice is not the key force. Malice may also come from an external source that forces another to act with malice.

For example, one might desire a promotion, thus leading one to try to discredit all others who are also trying to get that promotion. You don't have malice towards the individuals, but rather towards what they represent.

To address your question more specifically, I believe that while the individual devs have no malice towards their players, they have a general ignorance and incompetence that the company as a whole (and its stockholders) are exploiting with malice for the purpose of greed. Thus we get things like insane resource grinds and pay-to-skip specifically made for that exact grind (railjack repair drones), or things done to inflate and destabilize the platinum market. The devs themselves do not have a high-level understanding of economics, so they don't see what it is that they are being made to do.

However, one can only claim ignorance and incompetence for so long before it turns into being complicit. I don't know if the devs are at that point yet. Sometimes they notice things and fix them (mod drop boosters, repair drones). Other times they let things go on for far too long. I'm just one player; I can't make this sort of determination by myself. It's the sort of thing that a players as a group must figure out.

I have a feeling (and correct me if I’m wrong) that you believe you know what’s going on in the minds of those working at DE? Or maybe you have knowledge I am not aware of?

If you’re going to figure anything out, I believe it’d have to be with some sort of communication with the developers at DE.

If you don’t have that, what knowledge about how they work and why they do what they do will you have?

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
Unreferencing players as a group. That feels like speaking for the entire player base, which I cannot do
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