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2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh.


[DE]Rebecca
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This is amazing. Honestly, the best devstream in a long time imo. One thing not mentioned in the stream that I think many players want to be voiced: Exalted weapons after melee 3.0. Most, if not all exalted weapons are worse than many basic melee weapons, and are currently seen as a waste of an ability slot (Iron Staff and Exalted Blade are examples of ones hit the hardest). Exalted weapons should be special, and should have unique incentive to be used, alongside generally higher power. For example, Iron Staff could have an effect where it draws in enemies, alongside higher slash and generally higher base damage. Exalted Blade could greatly boost Excalibur's movement and parkour velocity to make him a truly agile swordsman (just examples, I know they're not very good ones but they get the point across and I just returned home from work). Melee 3.0 has not only made Exalted weapons obsolete, but it's made them feel underwhelming and undeserving of being special or "exalted." This definitely needs to be a priority.

Again, this stream is what we've all wanted and I loved every bit of it, but I also thought it necessary to add in this tidbit. Thanks, DE.

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5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh. 

Self Damage Changes:
We are getting rid of Self Damage and replacing it with something else: instead of Self Damage, it’s now ‘Stagger’. This change completely removes the chance of killing yourself, and instead now creates scenarios where you will interrupt yourself - or ‘Stagger’ - to varying degrees if you aren’t careful. 
The degrees of Self-Interrupt start with a small stumble all the way to full knockdown depending on how close you are to the center of explosion. Any Mods referring to Self Damage will be converted to acknowledge Stagger.

With this Self-Interrupt system, we have added dozens of new recovery animations that harness a ninja-like recovery experience. 

Here is a Dev-build video of this in action:


In addition to this change, some of the more powerful AOE weapons without Self Damage presently will have the Stagger added, but it should only be noticeable in cases of extreme inaccuracy on the player’s part. 

As a result of this overall systemic change, Weapons with Stagger will be getting approximately a 20% buff in Damage, with any weapons with AOE receiving a 50% Radial Damage Falloff from central impact.
 

Why: Self Damage had a lot of drawbacks for weapons, resulting in flow-disrupting death.This Stagger replacement system favours agility with a less harsh consequence, while allowing some of the most powerful weapons in the game to remain that way due to their unique consequence. Weapons with self-damage will be converted to this new system and as a result, Self Damage is removed from Warframe. 

 

DO NOT REMOVE SELF DAMAGE. It CAN and SHOULD exist.

Remember the Tonkor.

 

INCREASED REWARD comes with balancing DRAWBACKS. Personal risk is a legitimate and even enjoyable drawback if you care to master it.

Please. Don't let the whiners make you cave and steal away niche fun from the players who actually liked it and didn't mind putting themselves on their back from time to time because it was their own fault, and they accepted that.

Alternatives exist. Nobody is forced to use self-damage weaponry. Not all weaponry has to work in every situation. 

 

Let us wield a REAL risk if we choose to do so. If you're going to address the self-damage, do it by changing the formula, not the mechanics.

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1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

DO NOT REMOVE SELF DAMAGE. It CAN and SHOULD exist.

Remember the Tonkor.

 

INCREASED REWARD comes with balancing DRAWBACKS. Personal risk is a legitimate and even enjoyable drawback if you care to master it.

Please. Don't let the whiners make you cave and steal away niche fun from the players who actually liked it and didn't mind putting themselves on their back from time to time because it was their own fault, and they accepted that.

Alternatives exist. Nobody is forced to use self-damage weaponry. Not all weaponry has to work in every situation. 

 

Let us wield a REAL risk if we choose to do so. If you're going to address the self-damage, do it by changing the formula, not the mechanics.

Amen

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)Quantaminum said:

As expected, self-damage has been removed and explosive weapons' AoE nerfed to appease randumbs who like shooting carelessly and with no trigger discipline. Effing great.

 

Oh no, you're actually going to have to aim your weapons to do damage. The horror, how dare they.

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Very happy with a lot of the changes going on here, I'm sure its been a lot of work and communication coming, and I can only imagine how easy it was to work through all this with the reaction to Liches and Empyrean. Loved the devstream and all the info, and thank you all!

As a console player though, two things that still bother me:

The button to force mission timers is too easy to hit on consoles, and due to lag, controller problems, or a slow-to-update UI element, people can very easily double press and force the timer, which is frustrating at best while you're modding, to downright mission-ending if its a relic run and 1-2 of the players didn't get to choose a relic. I would ask to at the least make it a held button, if not an option hidden in a drop-down menu - thus leaving the possibility of forcing a mission if a player isnt given a prompt, or in the case of a coordinated squad which is trying to move quicker through loads

Ignis Wraith is still not tradeable on Switch. Due to the event, other platforms effectively have the weapon available for free by typing in trade chat, on switch we have to grind ducats for it, no matter what (you can argue it's not DE's design that makes Ignis Wraith freely available on other platforms, but their own partners are giving it away and promoting not to pay for it, why are they charging for it, or not communicating that such is a problem?) I understand holding the cards close to the chest and wanting to release the clan design again through an event or something, but can we on switch at least have the courtesy of sharing our ducats with friends or stream viewers through Ignis Wraith in the meantime? 

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The QoL changes are always nice took longer than it should.

The status chance for weapons with lower status is good for those that had high status it doesnt look that way will have to wait and see.

The arcanes are taking a HUGE hit in terms of not only are the stats getting nerfed but the grind to get them to lvl 5 is going to be horrible thats what 21? arcanes just to get 1 to lvl 5 with worse stats than a lvl 3 current arcane rip arcanes and market for them.

Liches roll back is good can we also get the lichs rage gauge to fill no matter on which lichs planet the squad is and the third requiem murmur count can use a bit of a bumb down.

RJ valens fusion type system when 

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1 hour ago, The364thOnion said:

Genuinely amazed you thought some of these changes were a good idea 

I understand the idea behind status becoming more unified with greater than 100% status being implemented but the current system of status for pellet based shotguns already provides a greater version of what you're suggesting making this a huge nerf.

With regards to arcanes increasing ranks on the dmg type resistances to allow for 100% is a fantastic idea. However when it comes to the grind unless the drop tables for eidolons become multiple arcanes at once this will be a huge increase in grind for new players and regardless of that will force existing vets to grind out the same arcanes they already own multiple sets of. The cooldown sounds like an excuse to nerf the more popular arcanes rather than establish a more diverse meta, as certain utility will always be more useful than other effects.

These changes seem to go directly against the statement that you want to maintain the power fantasy and follow the trend of the past 3 years of nerfing the meta rather than creating content to allow other builds to shine. 

I hope you revert these plans.

 

it's not a nerf! change is good regardless.

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Most of these sounds nice, a little worried on the rendering and it effecting consoles, will HDR work on console's that have an HDR tv? 

Shield gating, worried on my Chroma.. because at times it is nice to instantly get armor and damage from vex right away but I also have been one shotted in super high level range. Just dont want where I'm losing time while gating is going and vex is on. The corpus version.. what if they are at a high level and our damages are 3% versus shields or in elite sanctuary would be losing time while a lot of gated enemies are running around. Can corpus abuse gating if a shield osprey or guardian is present or moves away and comes back?

Will double status actually be an alternative for weapons that have status chance vs critical? Will crit damage come in play of double status? Will tatsu perform as well as pennant? Will syndicates status auras get buffed?  

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Despite the upcoming mini tweaks to Titania, im still incredibly disappointed the vacuum range of razorwing has yet to be ackowledged. As is using it in any indoor tileset barring the rare tall rooms, results in wasted energy. And not all of us, depite the time we put in, have arcane energizes to vaguely counteract that wasted energy. And even those dont fix the issue. 

It could be solved by reducing the vacuum range of JUST energy orbs to be slightly smaller like 5 or 6 meters, or tie it to whether we have vacuum equipped on a companion. It would mean less wasted energy because players arent forced to sit in the ceiling of most rooms out of vacuum range. Its a game of baby sitting. Im getting low, theres no orbs. So let me stop what im doing and zenurik or pizza back up. Wait around for it and back to the action. It disrupts the pace of a game meant on moving fast. 

 

Its not fun playing Titania when it becames a nuisance to manage her energy. Its why i dont play her. Its why some others dont play her. I like her kit, i want to play her, buts its just not fun having to baby sit her. This isnt an issue on any other channeled frame either, precisely because on those frames i can decide if i want vacuum or not with the simple switch of a mod on my pet or sentinel. Titania doesnt get that option. And you guys promote how much choice players get, and you continue to promote choice like with the new armor scaling to curb the need for CP over other auras. Please just give us that option for her already. 

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Nice. While you're at it nerf saryn yeah? Nukes have their place but they can be pulled off way too frequently for teammates to have fun. Best way would be to fix energy economy.

As a new player it's practically impossible to maintain caster frames throughout missions, as a high level player you're spamming maim & miasma every half second. middle ground might be nice. higher passive recharge for low end, cap on regen arcanes & such for the high?

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1 hour ago, baoyouming said:

I sincerely hope they don't change this. Not aggroing your own lich is one of the main reasons I switched from solo to group murmur farming. Even with a full squad, having to deal with max lvl enemies and lichs in every mission because you kept aggroing and lvling up your lich (since the only way not to level them is to ignore them until the mission finishes) gets real annoying real fast. Because of this feature, I've never had to max lvl a lich before killing it when I didn't want to. Now I realize some people prefer to aggro and attempt their lich as many times as possible, but I think both options should still be available as options, rather than forcing everyone to have to aggro and deal with their lich constantly.

I was going to say you just need to git stronk, but looking at your profile, you should already be. I'm not sure what the problem is, I think you need to change your approach to them. For liches, use Redeemer Prime with a crit corrosive build, Corrupt Charge, Killing Blow, and either a riven or Primed Smite Grineer, and just keep doing heavy attacks. If necessary, use Nova to slow them down and make them take double damage. For extra superduper tryhard, equip Detect Vulnerability on your Helios and hope the weak spot appears on the head.

1 hour ago, baoyouming said:

As for the players who want to constantly aggro their lich and group farm murmurs? They can do what I've already seen done in the groups I've been in: host, declare in recruit chat which planets you're doing/want to do murmurs on, or just ask the host if they can select their missions for the group.

That doesn't help at all if you want to play with specific friends and your respective lich territories don't happen to overlap. If you just want to group farm with randoms, you don't need to look for a group, you can simply leave squad after every mission and join a new random pub squad on the mission you want to do.

Joining a mission in progress also has the added benefit of giving you all the murmurs that had been gained since its start, so if you join a survival with 1 minute remaining, you get 4 minutes worth of free murmurs. That by itself makes this kind of farming much quicker than playing in any kind of premade group, and it's the main reason to level up your lich as much as possible, in order for them to acquire more territory and give you access to more missions that can be joined in progress. That's how you tryhard the murmur farm. But I'd be willing to take the efficiency hit and play with friends if I was getting some progress on the lich at least (aside from the actual murmurs, you do gain those, but those are meaningless if the lich never spawns).

Edited by SordidDreams
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1 minute ago, Ramflare said:

Nice. While you're at it nerf saryn yeah? Nukes have their place but they can be pulled off way too frequently for teammates to have fun. Best way would be to fix energy economy.

As a new player it's practically impossible to maintain caster frames throughout missions, as a high level player you're spamming maim & miasma every half second. middle ground might be nice. higher passive recharge for low end, cap on regen arcanes & such for the high?

That's good advice across the board. Boost base stats and lower the top, compress the range, make skill rather than big numbers be the deciding factor. Adding passive energy regen would be nice too, somewhere around Energy Siphon levels would do, with mods and arcanes that can boost it.

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You're nerfing Arcane Energize.  I no longer care about any of the other changes you've made.  This is a prime example of a "no fun allowed" nerf and you've already done so many of them in the last few months.  Nerf nerf nerf, over and over again.  Every player buff comes with nerfs.  Every update and hotfix comes with a nerf.  I'm so completely over it at this point. 

Instead of buffing the other arcanes and changing their effects to make them worth using over the top arcanes to provide some incentive for picking something else, you're just nerfing the top down so the trash on the bottom looks better like you always do.

I'm done.  I'm flat out over it.  You keep this kind of crap up and you're going to keep bleeding players.  I'm not leaving over an arcane.  I'm leaving over the mentality that fun needs to keep being nerfed.  Energy economy is a barrier to warframe abilities which are one of the only things that separates this from any other generic shooter.  You're going to screw over endgame energy economy and that's a direct nerf to ability use which is just another nerf to fun.

Go ahead and hit me with your toxic af laugh reacts because you enjoy another player being angry, because other player's lack of enjoyment is fun for you.  It speaks volumes about this community that I know they're coming.  I won't see them anyway.

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Am 28.2.2020 um 22:43 schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

DO NOT REMOVE SELF DAMAGE. It CAN and SHOULD exist.

Remember the Tonkor.

 

INCREASED REWARD comes with balancing DRAWBACKS. Personal risk is a legitimate and even enjoyable drawback if you care to master it.

Please. Don't let the whiners make you cave and steal away niche fun from the players who actually liked it and didn't mind putting themselves on their back from time to time because it was their own fault, and they accepted that.

Alternatives exist. Nobody is forced to use self-damage weaponry. Not all weaponry has to work in every situation. 

 

Let us wield a REAL risk if we choose to do so. If you're going to address the self-damage, do it by changing the formula, not the mechanics.

just so true, it would be enoth to surv with 10hp, there must be a risk to it

edit:

changed my mid, i played 2 days now with only self dmg weapons, there a thing in the game you can not out play, sometimes you blow you self up just by a door that is closed but still seems open, or a grineer barrier that is displayed as destroyed but isn't. still i would prefer to get rid of all these bugs, but i think its easyer to kill the self dmg. 

Edited by woisen
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I'd like to mention that part 14) Arcane Changes could use another small change beyond the standard arcanes. The kitgun/zaw arcanes (Exodia and Pax) have many wonderful effects that are definitely powerful and fun to use. But they can only be used on a very limited selection of weapons. While kitguns and zaws start out with an arcane slot, I'd love to see an item to unlock/make an arcane slot in our standard applicable weaponry. 

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The change to arcane enerzige is something that will kill a LOT of builds. Everybody uses Arcane Energize to be able to have an Energy regeneration for frames with toggledrain abilities (like Oberon). This way those frames are unplayable at a high level because the energy drain is killing the whole energy pool really fast.

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