2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh.

[Steel_Rook]

Question, because the explanation of Shotgun status is confusing: Will we be seeing and modding Status chance per pellet with shotguns with the next mainline? Right now, what we mod is an "at least one Status proc" metric that Status chance per pellet is back-calculated from. Can someone confirm that this entire calculation is being binned and shotguns simply show their Status chance per pellet? Or is this just a display change? The problem with shotguns and Status is that the formula used to calculate per-pellet Status chance spikes heavily towards 100%, more heavily the more pellets your shotgun has.

Question about shields: There was talk on one of the Dev Streams about changing shield recharge delay, potentially down to 0. I see player shield recharge delay is dropped for partially-damaged shields (you should consider upping shield recharge rate across the board, as well), but does this apply to the Corpus, as well? They really need better shield protection, and just giving them minor resistance to Slash isn't going to cut it.

Question about Arcane Grace: The list of Arcane changes shows it not being able to retrigger while the effect is active. This is a drastic change from how it works right now. Is this an intended nerf to Arcane Grace? If so, can we get a reason why this decision was made? Not saying it's bad, just I feel it's worth addressing considering how significant an effect that's going to have across the board.

Question about the self-stagger on self-damage change: Will the new animations apply to all sources of stagger (so enemy knockdowns and knockbacks) or ONLY to self-stagger from our own weapons. What the video showed looked really good and felt a lot more "space ninja" than our current "fall flat on your ass and struggle back to your feet" animation we have right now. You could could probably get away with adding more knockback into the game if our default knockdown animation weren't so long and didn't make us look so clumsy.

Question about FoV: Have you considered letting us pull our camera back a little. Right now, FoV is our only way of pulling the camera a bit farther away from our shoulders so our Warframes don't eat up a full third of our screen space. Would it be reasonable to add the ability to move the camera at least BACK a little bit?

[green94337]

2 hours ago, The364thOnion said:

Genuinely amazed you thought some of these changes were a good idea 

I understand the idea behind status becoming more unified with greater than 100% status being implemented but the current system of status for pellet based shotguns already provides a greater version of what you're suggesting making this a huge nerf.

With regards to arcanes increasing ranks on the dmg type resistances to allow for 100% is a fantastic idea. However when it comes to the grind unless the drop tables for eidolons become multiple arcanes at once this will be a huge increase in grind for new players and regardless of that will force existing vets to grind out the same arcanes they already own multiple sets of. The cooldown sounds like an excuse to nerf the more popular arcanes rather than establish a more diverse meta, as certain utility will always be more useful than other effects.

These changes seem to go directly against the statement that you want to maintain the power fantasy and follow the trend of the past 3 years of nerfing the meta rather than creating content to allow other builds to shine. 

I hope you revert these plans.

 

Dear Sir, Ma'am, Other,

I fear you missed the line where it said that you would be able to dissolve ranked arcanes back to their original individual unranked ones. So then you could use the ones you just dissolved to rank your duplicate up to rank 5.

Just wanted to help calm your panic.

Cheers

[whothehellisnico]

If you really want to kill arcane Energize, then plase fix Exodia Brave to give energy on a Kill even if it's from a Slash proc of that heavy attack.

 

[Ham_Grenabe]

5 minutes ago, UNO168 said:

Ur literally nerfing arcanes. e.g. aegis and guardian 

STOP lying to us about changes. U R Rerfing Arcanes, not changes. I don't see u getting rid of p2w rivens am I correct?

Maybe they’ll get rid of rivens next. If they do, arcanes would be a small price to pay. 
 

We can only hope. 

Edited February 28, 2020 by Ham_Grenabe
Typo

[sightjacker]

6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Damage-Type Changes:

• Slash Status now does not bypass Shields and instead deals damage over time to Shields. Slash Status still bypasses Armor. 

Edited February 28, 2020 by sightjacker
facepalm intesified

[Jarriaga]

Thank for the update. Overall, I do like the changes and the direction they are heading. There's one that sorely sticks out though:

6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Arcane Guardian
On Rank 5: On Damaged:
15% chance for +600 Armor for 30s

This is the only Arcane that looks objectively nerfed without compensation, and hard. Unless that's a typo, not only will you not get the 50% stacking compensation (For 900 total armor in this case), but it will also have a lower proc chance than the current Rank 3 version (15% vs 20%). Sure it will last longer, but you'll be taking a lot more damage. This will be a death blow to my Umbra, which is squishy enough as is even with Umbral Fiber. Any special reasoning as to why this defensive Arcane is being nerfed so hard? Shield gating will not compensate the survivability loss in melee frames that will be taking more damage in the frontlines (Again, Excalibur).

 

[FrolicM]

Arcane Guardian should have at least +900 armor. If its like a 1.5 improvement, making it +600 is a nosense, considering that arcane tanker goes up to 1800. Save the frames who used to run two of those, please!

Edited February 28, 2020 by FrolicM

[Sarmok]

21 minutes ago, green94337 said:

Dear Sir, Ma'am, Other,

I fear you missed the line where it said that you would be able to dissolve ranked arcanes back to their original individual unranked ones. So then you could use the ones you just dissolved to rank your duplicate up to rank 5.

Just wanted to help calm your panic.

Cheers

Please read his message again. What you are saying is true but it does not change anything about what he is saying. Example: Currently you own one rank 3 Arcane Energize, so you have one maxed Energize. After the update you will have one rank 3 out of 5 Energize with no spares to feed, which will actually be less potent than the old iteration. Therefore you are forced to get 11 copies of it again (which is more than you needed to even get it to rank 3 originally) to get it to its max rank, which will still be worse than what rank 3 used to be.

edit: I seem to have missed he did mention duplicates. Sorry for that, though then again, it still does not change anything for people that only have one maxed set

Edited February 28, 2020 by Sarmok

[(NSW)MarulArifin]

So, how many arcanes will it take to level it up to level 5? 20? 

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

Good lord. This is a lot stuff I've said in the past! The Vindication!!! Feels so gooooooood!

On that note, it'll be great to play Warframe with all these kinks hammered out. To see a beautiful game brought back up to its glory is truly a wonderful thing to see and feel.

[kuryux]

6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Arcane Guardian
On Rank 5: On Damaged:
15% chance for +600 Armor for 30s

Today is 20% for 600 armor. How is this an upgrade?

[Danguy217]

Heck of an update! but I will not able to [angstrun] self damage Vex Armor Chroma Prime Anymore TT

[IggySnow]

I love all of these changes except for the shotgun status chance changes.

There's no arguing that if you actually do the math with any shotgun that reaches 100% status chance (which are the only shotguns anyone uses) it's a substantial nerf.

If you guys really don't want to nerf shotguns like you said, wouldn't the obvious answer just be to make the current displayed status chance the chance per pellet? That way 100% status chance shotguns go unchanged, and it makes it so that shotguns that cant reach 100% are now viable.

[Ham_Grenabe]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)MarulArifin said:

So, how many arcanes will it take to level it up to level 5? 20? 

21, it seems. Unless that’s only for combining two R3 arcanes. 

[anfuerudo]

  Well, I like the majority of changes that will come in the next Mainline, but... Here comes the axe:

6 часов назад, [DE]Rebecca сказал:

Arcane Changes
- Increasing the maximum Rank of Warframe and Operator Arcanes to 5, up from 3. Arcane Revives are a bonus that begins on Rank 3. 
- Adjusting the power of Arcanes at Rank 5 to generally behave as if you had 1.5 equipped, list as follows:

- Removing the ability to Equip two of the same Arcane simultaneously. 

This is bad. Current arcane upgrade system is based on arithmetic progression. Which means that for R4 we'll need 5 R0 arcanes and for R5 we'll need 6 R0 arcanes. So that'll be 21 R0 arcane to get only 50% increase, whereas currently we get 100% increase for 20 R0 arcanes. This is huge nerf number one.

This first nerf also contains second nerf - inability to doublestack. Currently we can double stack arcanes and get increased percentage of them proccing. For example, two Trickery arcanes will give you 19% of invisibility proc. While upcoming changes not only will increase it's cost from 20 to 21(unless you do something with it, like decreasing number of arcanes needed to get to R5), but also decrease its proc chance to 15%. And since we won't be able to doublestack them that's a straight 4% nerf. For increased cost! And that's on arcane that has rather decent chance to proc. Arcanes with less than 10% proc chance will get decimated even more.

And second nerf contains third one - cooldowns. Well, this is absolute "u wot m8?". Not only you straight up nerfing the amount of bonuses we get, not only you increase he price we have to pay to get at least somewhat comparable bonuses, you also add cooldowns that will prevent arcanes from refreshing their proc or from proccing again?

To summarize: this proposed change to arcanes will be a grindfest regardless of what @[DE]Steve said. It will be a grindfest either during Op. Scarlet Spear or Eidolons later, when said Operation will end. And all that in the name of "diversity"? This is not "diversity", this is straight up nerf of arcane system with its simultaneous grindification past its current state, which is already ridiculous, and which won't make us use some utterly useless arcanes like Arcane Deflection(especially since we're gonna get shield gating).

For crying out loud, this is riven situation all over again - nerfing something will not force people to switch from it, if the alternative is even more useless.

 

NB And here I was thinking that I maybe will be able to play Op.Scarlet Spear at my leisure. Fat chance now, it's grindfest time!

Edited February 28, 2020 by anfuerudo

[MELTIX]

I'm still worried about that deferred rendering, i really hope that does not hurt current low end of mid end players

[MunsuLight]

Arcane Aegis: 
On Rank 5: On Shield Damaged:
3% chance for +30% Shield Recharge for 12s.

 

Isnt it worse than what it was unless it is a flat % of shield, because  shield recharge is generally trash compared to +flat shield per second, at least for gara (90%Dr on shield) and hildryn..  ??

[Kontrollo]

There are some interesting changes in all of that, but I don't feel like giving positive feedback on that, seeing as the overarching theme is yet again: "let's dumb things down even more".

 

• Armor Health Shield Changes: Sure, exponential growth of armour isn't the best thing, but the game is already so easy that at least things would get tough if you spent enough time in an endless mission. What now?
• Shield Gating: (Friendlies version) Yet another band-aid that can and will be abused with the right combination of mods. You know it, we know it.
• Self damage changes:
  • Hundreds of weapons without self damage to pick from.
  • Individual multipliers to tweak on every weapon that deals self damage has been a thing since I can remember.
  • Self damage has its use not only in terms of gameplay (risk/reward) but also in combination with certain frames and abilities.
  • A mod that reduces self damage which could've been adjusted or Primed or whatever suits your fancy.
  • But you decide -- yet again -- to dumb things down even more.
• Plus a few other changes that make it clear you want to make this as simple as it can possibly get.

 

As if the game wasn't shallow and easy enough already. How about you release a Warframe Classic from somewhen between 2015 to before around the release of Rivens so I can play something that isn't downright boring or jarring in its lack of balance? Because it looks like these days this studio just wants to provide the 3D equivalent of Cow Clicker and a farm simulator, not an actually entertaining gameplay experience.

The consequence of that is clear, too: instead of creating an interesting core gameplay loop, you're just going to make it about total time spent instead. Grind is the name of the game.

 

And it's been four months since the Old Blood has messed up Conclave and maybe just as much time -- who knows for sure -- since you silently removed Void nodes from the Fissure rotation.

 

These are the kind of things that have made me stop recommending this game to others (I would've in case of Railjack if it wasn't such a bug-ridden mess for months).

Edited February 28, 2020 by Kontrollo
typos/clarification

[Ham_Grenabe]

1 minute ago, anfuerudo said:

 

For crying out loud, this is riven situation all over again - nerfing something will not force people to switch from it, if the alternative is even more useless.

What I see is that DE’s priority is placed on making the meta stuff less powerful, not in making people use something else. If you use something else, that’s just gravy  

A lot of people are expressing some perplexity at these decisions but, IMO, they’re pretty clear: “those things need to be less good.”

[kuryux]

6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Why: Self Damage had a lot of drawbacks for weapons, resulting in flow-disrupting death.This Stagger replacement system favours agility with a less harsh consequence, while allowing some of the most powerful weapons in the game to remain that way due to their unique consequence. Weapons with self-damage will be converted to this new system and as a result, Self Damage is removed from Warframe. 

We all know its just to ruin our fun nerfing chroma, but nice try

[BlackLightZer0]

I do really love most of this changes. With the removal of self damage i wont be killing myself with the acceltra the instant i do a bullet jump while shooting forward (you won't believe how often it happens) and the recovery animations are really cool. The status chance rework will bring a lot of weapons back to the front line and give a lot of changes to the community overall. The scaling of healt and shields of the excavators has been really needed for a while and are well recieved. The sharing sentinel mods, grenade markers, and FOV improvements will not change a lot but are part of those little things that differentiates a good game from other good looking but bad games overall. So, in general, i think is a really good rework and i'm exited to see what brings the new "biggest opperation of warframe's history", buuuuuut, i have a few things that i don't feel right.

_First is the arcanes rework, while i think is truly great to have more ranks, the inability to put two of the same would result in a significant nerf for a lot of work. Right now to get to the max rank, one needs 10 of the same, while with the new system there would be if i'm not wrong 11 extra arcanes needed, making a total of 21 for a bonus of around %50. Thats why i think there should be a greater bonus or the same ability as now of using both at the same time. BTW, the arcane guardian is almost nerfed at rank 5 compared to the actual rank 3 and there are 2 arcanes listed that do the same ("Resistance" and "Detoxifier").

_Second is the Shield Gating, on the warframe side i think it would make a couple of hyldrin abilities useless unless she gets buffed, and on the enemy side it would negatively affect the flow of normal gameplay against corpus for the invulnerability phase they would recieve after shields depletion (specially for new and low rank players). Thats why for me there should be no invulnerability or this should be balanced with real care. And a quick question, that phase would make them inmune to status effects? i mean slash for example, it would overflow to health or have a time while it does nothing?

_And third, i'm not sure about this because there is a lot to think, but doesn't feel ringht to have slash "bleed" status effect afecting shields before life. It just sounds antinatural because of how a real bleed would work, and while i get there are a lot of changes coming that may affect how this works, right now slash is the only useful status effect of all physical damage types, so i would really like to not have that change. The toxin one is fine for me btw, because right now it is mostly for corpus and nothing more, and that would stay like that.

Have a nice day and thanks for bringing so much content to this great game 😄

 

[anfuerudo]

Только что, Ham_Grenabe сказал:

What I see is that DE’s priority is placed on making the meta stuff less powerful, not in making people use something else. If you use something else, that’s just gravy  

A lot of people are expressing some perplexity at these decisions but, IMO, they’re pretty clear: “those things need to be less good.”

You're right, no denying that. But that's just another band aid in this patchwork of a game. And even if we leave aside band aid nature of this proposal, a question "what's wrong with being good?" still remains. Nothing is wrong with being good. But DE thinks otherwise.

[-CG-ImMrBloo]

These are all absolutely brilliant changes from the top of the thread to the bottom of the thread. Good job Digital Extremes! Actually so much new potential in builds and frame usages it's going to be a lot of fun! 

[ciTiger]

6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Arcane Aegis: 
On Rank 5: On Shield Damaged:
3% chance for +30% Shield Recharge for 12s.

Current Rank 3:

6% chance for  60 shields for 20s.

We already have arcane barrier for 

6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Arcane Barrier
On Rank 5: On Shield Damaged:
6% chance to instantly restore all Shields.

So that would defeat the purpose of using aegis altogether since we have mods with 60% Shield Recharge and more.

So according to your 1.5 times stronger shouldn't Arcane Aegis be something like:

 9% chance for 90 shields for 30s.

 

It seems more like a nerf to arcanes than anything else.

One would think you learned about misleading your users after what happened with liches and railjack but I guess not.

The rest of the changes seem nice but I have lost my faith in DE since for a while what you say is not what you do.

Cheers

Edited February 28, 2020 by ciTiger

[BlackLightZer0]

hace 9 minutos, HerpDerpy dijo:

I love all of these changes except for the shotgun status chance changes.

There's no arguing that if you actually do the math with any shotgun that reaches 100% status chance (which are the only shotguns anyone uses) it's a substantial nerf.

If you guys really don't want to nerf shotguns like you said, wouldn't the obvious answer just be to make the current displayed status chance the chance per pellet? That way 100% status chance shotguns go unchanged, and it makes it so that shotguns that cant reach 100% are now viable.

If i'm getting it right, the status chance changes aren't a nerf but a buff, because it would work like crits, putting more stats on the same shot the higher from %100 one is.