2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh.

[DeLawrence]

I will give a little piece of my mind and say that I am 100% supporting these changes, even if some of them are nerfs.Nerfs are needed, for the sake of a bit of balance, otherwise you end up with severe powercreep that is really, really hard to rectify.

I like however how several posts here take things out of context and blow them out of proportion...

• Let's start with the biggest debate here, arcanes.
  Spoiler

  Yes, I agree with removing double stacking while increasing their power to about 1.5x. Yes, I am aware that some might have been nerfed more than they needed to. Energize and Guardian are two of them.
  I have the feeling that Guardian's text was a typo or an oversight and that the armor value should be 900 instead of 600.
  
  However...Have you checked Arcane Tanker? That one gives, EVERY TIME, 1800armor for 24s. My impression with the phrasing "Cooldown added (cannot retrigger while active)" is that the cooldown is the actual duration of 24s...meaning that, yes, when it gets disabled, you will have a small window of vulnerability. However, archguns, if you don't fire any shot are immediately available if you just pop them and then get them back into the gear wheel, meaning you'll have 1800 armor at command with a downtime of about 1-2s if you're paying attention to the buff bar(which btw could use some improvements). Also...you could even go as far as looking on the minimap, seeing there's a bunch of enemies behind a door and beefing up before entering...weird, right?
  
  Hmm...so technically 600(or 900 if it was a typo) for basically doing nothing but getting shot at vs triple/double that for actually doing something extra, maybe even incorporating the archgun into a strategy...hmm it almost sounds like....balance? Reward for extra play? Preposterous...how dare DE make me use my brain a bit and watch my well being?
  
  Energize is a bit of an odd one, I'll admit, if it's turned into an energy over-time buff and will not work with channeled abilities, then it's pretty much unusable for frames that have energy drains.However, this was again blown out of proportion by some people saying "Oberon, Ember, Titania and Excalibur" are dead because they always think they're surrounded at point blank by 15000 enemies and God forbid they take 5s to get into cover and regenerate some energy if the need arises.
  
  Oberon: 2 Umbrals, Hunter Adrenaline,Adaptation, 100HP/s 500 armor from 3 and 2, 100% eff, a bit of range and Duration to actually be able to use my other spells? What's this sorcery? Arbi survival as long as 1hr 40m (before I got bored) and Kuva Survival of 1hr(+ fissure), no problems.
  Ember: Max Eff, 168 STR, 145 RAN, 105DUR, Primed Flow,Adaptation, AC Consequence and Guardian for some extra tankiness when casting 3 to cool down. Some people seem to think Ember's 2 was made to go up to 90 and stay there draining energy and replenishing it with 2 Energizes. I mean...it works, I guess, but it's the kind of braindead playstyle facilitated by powercreeped arcanes.
  
  I could continue with Excal and Titania, but I think I've made my point. I will however urge DE to not modify the way energize works, a.k.a. instant energy on pickup, and instead just tone down the effectiveness, something like 30% chance at 125-150 energy with a cooldown of 5s. That's enough IMO to not destroy its purpose, while still being convenient enough to use.
  
  The bigger point I'm seeing with some complaints though is that people seem to be upset that braindead tactics which require no input from the player are starting to get replaced/ made an option to more rewarding effects based on player actions...and what's worse is that these are likely the same players that yell "We want more difficulty"...guys...here it is, one step of it, difficulty can also be achieved by variety and finding new ways to match and use your equipment.
  
  Another point is that "You're nerfing something I grinded for". Yeah...and what's the problem here? If statistics say that some items powercreep others or are WAY more efficient than others, to the point of being the sole choice, they should never be balanced because you grinded for it? What kind of dumb mentality is that? You haven't paid for them, you have given your time voluntarily, and by legal terms, DE could decide tomorrow to shut down the game and you couldn't do anything about it other than cry. Yes, I don't agree with some changes, I give my preliminary feedback about those in a fashionable manner,test the version that goes live and then, if I decide the changes are not on my liking give my full feedback with reasoning. That's all I can do as a user.

  P.S. If you've already farmed 20 arcanes for the double stacks, you can distill the second into simple arcanes in order to upgrade the R3 into an R5.
  
  And again...some people take things out of context and yell "REEE you're just adding more grind", although it was explicitly stated arcanes would join the reward pool in the upcoming operation and they seemed to be SELECTABLE IN A TOKEN EXCHANGE SYSTEM, instead of RNG drops...but that's none of my business.
  
  Thre's people here threatening to leave the game if DE goes through with these changes. By all means, it's your time, your choice, your enjoyment. It almost sounds like "DE, I'm suing you for nerfing my arcanes, see you in court sucker.". Let's see how that goes. Anyway, moving on...

   

• Self damage and the death of Chroma
  Spoiler

  Removal of self damage is a welcome addition from my point of view and an even bigger joy that it gets replaced with a mechanic that requires an actual input on my side. The main frustration I've had with self damage stemmed from the deaths caused by the high-octane nature of the game. Several times I've had projectiles from the Ogris, Tonkor, Bramma blocked by a jumping ally or some enemy that simply popped out of nowhere. Yes, I know there's the Punchtrhough solution, I've used it, but my counter argument to that was...why should I die from an Ogris shot from my weapon, but not an Ogris shot from an enemy? It made no sense how I could survive multiple explosions from an enemy as Inaros but not one of mine and simply alter my build to solve a problem that should not have existed in the first place.
  
  As for Chroma...again...blown out of proportion and taken out of context. The only place Chroma will be affected is Eidolons. And even then...with little adjustments to play style(that's called meta, ever heard of it?), it might still work. Plus, we've got new contenders for DPSing, Oberon, Gauss, Mirage, Rhino, Ivara. Are they on Chroma's level? No. Are they that much worse? Don't think so.We'll wait, test and see.
  As for normal gameplay...at low levels, enemies won't deal enough damage to fully proc the Vex...but you won't even need it, while at high levels it will likely require you standing still and getting shot for 3s to fully activate the buffs. Wow...such dead, much nerf. 
  Also, finally, our secondary weapon slot is free of the "Curse of the Hikou". Rejoice...no more stat stick useless weapon, but an actual weapon.
  If anything, this change shows us how badly designed Chroma is overall and might actually put him on a list for an upcoming rework. 

  
   
• Excavation scaling - Great
   
• Armor scaling,shield gating and slash/toxin interaction
  Spoiler

  Armor has been a problem in the game for a long time, glad to see it's mostly fixed, the S curve will definitely allow for us to use weaker frames( less survivability) to better act like glass cannons and kill enemies before they kill us. 
  Shield gating is another interesting mechanic, and a very welcome one, both for us and for enemies.
  I actually like that slash is finally not going to be the go-to damage type for everything,at least on paper... I like that I need to sort my loadout before going into a mission and choose weapons/elements accordingly instead of just throwing Crit/Hunter Munitions on everything(that had crit) or 100% Status on shotguns and be done with it. Still...until further testing...I fear that this is still going to remain meta for the most part...but then again, I need to see the changes myself before I pull the trigger on any conclusion here.

  
   
• Shotgun "nerf" and status changes
  Spoiler

  I have always asked myself...if there are crit tiers which basically make 100%+ crit chance mean something, why isn't there something similar for status, like an amplified or special effect. Lo and behold, the collective hivemind at DE seems to have thought the same for a while. I can't wait to test different weapons and see how they react to these changes, how the new double procs interact with the game.
  As for the shotguns, I want to...again...se how they actually perform. Something tells me that they won't feel nerfed at all. Pre level 75 enemies and even beyond were shredded anyway by shotguns, "problems" started appearing at 100-120+ when the 100% status shotguns woul obliterate such targets due to the 100% status chance on every pellet proccing viral/corrosive and slew of slashes.

  
   
• 100x Blueprints  - Cool, nothing to add here, other than maybe "About damn time..."
   
• Railjack building cost reduction
  Pretty straight forward, a good incentive for newer players, as an older player the costs of Rising Tide never bothered me(maybe the time gate, that could've been shortened with this pass honestly, but still), but I could see how newer players were discouraged by them. Also the refund was expected of DE, but still nice too see that, props.
   
• Railjack Bugfixes - Awaiting the list
   
• Vauban and Titania
  Spoiler

  Titania's changes look solid, they're mostly QoL changes on an otherwise pretty good kit that was mostly ruined by RNG, I'll try her and see how she is
  Vauban on the other hand concerns me...200 armor is nice, allows for some build modifications now that we have better base. However...I had some input in a YT comment that I'll post here, regarding Vaubs:

  • Tesla Bank/Photon Strike damage difference. Is it weird if I say that I'm kind of fine with Bank being stronger than Photon Strike?
    I agree that the difference needs to be adjusted, but Photon Strike should not outright deal more damage than Bank (and it technically never could, as bank scales better) IMO.
    Here's my thought process: Tesla Bank requires a mod slot and a bit of setup, waiting for the Nervos to latch onto something, shooting at it, making sure enemies are caught by the blast etc. Photon Strike is...throw - boom - damage(respectable). So, in this situation, I would expect to be rewarded with higher damage by performing a more complex move set/setup.
    However, that's not to say that I can set up bank every time, and that in the heat of the battle I can afford to do it. Thus...even though it deals a crap ton of damage, I've opted it not to use it in my build.
    My playstyle with Vauban revolves around AoE weapons(Whoa Bramma) Bastille/Vortex + a slew of tether coils / flechettes holding far entrances so that I don't get one shot from that bombard at the other end of the hallway. Usually, the weapons I use have self-damage, so in order to mitigate that, if the Vortex collapses in my proximity I use a Heavy Attack melee build(lately the Pennant as I like the Two Handed Nikana HA animation) to decimate close targets if need be. The secondary is usually the precision weapon for nullies and other stuff (a kitgun or Pyrana). So far, the build has been working fine in Kuva Survival Fissures, Lich hunting with higher levels Grineer mobs. Yeah, he still needs some more tankiness as I would take quite a bit of damage if my flow was somehow interrupted, but I did not die as much as I thought I would.
     
  • Vector pad is a waste of an ability
    Solution: Remove it, change it to something else(more on that later)
     
  • Overdriver is sloppy to use
    I don't like that you need to throw it, it has no indicative range so you sometimes end up spamming it 4 times to buff one of your allies. Solution: Make it a radius beacon, instead of throwing it on the ground, throw it up in the air, it buffs damage in a 25m radius let's say. EZ.
     
  • He.Just.Dies. There is no raw defensive/panic stuff for him to use
    Bastille has an animation which is long enough for you to get killed at level 60.
    90-100 becomes Super Mario, you just jump and throw stuff to try and avoid damage. Sometimes, you don't, and you are greeted by an Ogris bomb from a Bombard and die.
    Solution(s):

  1. The Vector pad mine could be changed to something similar to Baptiste's E from Overwatch. You throw a mine with a 5-10m radius in which nothing drops below an HP threshold. This can be fixed at say 100 or scalable with mods(kinda tricky, may spawn some exploit builds that are useless for everything else, thus boring)
  2. Make his passive a stackable DR buff. Say 15% per stack, stacking 5 times for a grand total of 75%. Stacks would come from successfully CCing enemies with different abilities. So...you throw down a Tesla, it sticks, one stack, throw down a Tether Coil, 1 stack per enemy caught (This could be the main source as you already spam it to lock down some areas)  Each bastille gets one stack. At 5 stacks you become overcharged receiving an additional 15% DR, totaling 90%. Stacks hold for 15 and they decay up to the third one...meaning ,if you have 5 and 15s pass, you now have 4(and 60%DR, -15% from the lost stack, and -15% from losing the overcharged status), but if another 15s pass, the entire passive drops. This would reinforce his theme as an engineer CC powerhouse.

 

• Infested damage increase  - At first glance, kinda needed to up their difficulty a tad. Let's see how this pans out
   
• AI Aimbots - I have noticed it sometimes, getting one tapped without even being able to react, especially by boarding parties in railjack. Again, I need to see how it performs live, but overall, good intentions.
   
• Rewards cleanup
  Spoiler

  Not gonna lie, it's a nice little change, but the entire reward system needs a revamp and scaling, now that you've toned down enemy scaling and are confortable sending people to higher level enemies without them coming to complain about how tough thy are, I guess it's time for at least another set of difficulty nodes(same nodes, just another selectable instance with levels starting from...say 75, since it's the magic number all the balance changes have revolved around). Start testing with quantity, then maybe with quality (vaulted relics, warframe parts, weapon blueprints or even built weapon drops etc.

• UI QoL - Good stuff
   
• Sentinel mods sharing  - Good change, same "About damn time" category as Blueprints x100
   
• Liches and murmurs
  Spoiler

  The system still has a lot of issues. The biggest one is the fact that it's still disconnected from the main game. While this remains true, no amount of changes and balance will make it more appealing.
  I once again call for at least death squads of 5-10 Thralls that come and bug you in normal missions, even special ones, maybe apart from sorties. At least that. 
  Further reasoning for that is the fact that you've made Liches Opt-In. As long as you opted in...I find it natural for the Lich to bug you and annoy you in any way it sees fit. Stealing stuff was a decent idea...but you know how pissed I am when they steal 13 endo while I have a pile of about 50k in my deposit? Really...really pissed. /s

  
  
  This is, good and bad, my feedback on the changes and on the feedback/issues some people take before trying the changes. I hope I offended everybody :).

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by DeLawrence

[reinforcers]

On 2020-03-01 at 5:51 PM, GruntBlender said:

You'll be able to break down ranked arcanes into their R0 components.

Great! can't wait to see the updates then 👍😍👍

[Circle_of_Psi]

9 hours ago, eboomer said:

MR9 test isn't hard.  The enemies move slowly in exactly the same predictable routes, and it's not that big of a map.  Just go into practice and work out a route through trial and error.  Took me maybe 5 trial runs to work it out (as Frost).

I do agree with the overall sentiment though that the game doesn't really have robust stealth mechanics (I don't count 'press a button to be invisible' in that category), so they shouldn't try to force stealth gameplay.

Yeah, simple to do but for others I worry, due to MR9 and MR19 where never this difficult before, I think the stealth gameplay messed the MR tests an little. I think that's what OP was worried about, still stuck on MR19 myself XD

[Graavarg]

16 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

I find it interesting that I point out a potential contradiction, counter it, and you can't even cite an example.  It's great not having to justify anything, but being able to dismiss something you don't agree with.  It's such a very safe space to be in.  Poking aside, if you have problems cite them.  I'm happy to explain my internal logic and consistencies, as often a different perspective is needed.

I think you mention the main thing here, and then misses it. The key word is "perspective".

In an earlier post you claimed that DE is devaluing the time of your investment. But this is a game, the general idea being that you play it for "fun", whatever that "fun" is for anyone. Anyone playing a game they truly dislike should have their head examined, don't you agree? Then there is a sort of paradox contained in the fact that something that was fun or meaningful in the past cannot be changed in the present, if you had fun doing something it might seem less fun now but you can't go back in time and "unfun" it. Done is done.

It is not uncommon to base arguments on assumptions (happens everywhere all the time), but since you use words like logic, consistency and perspective I assume that applies to the whole shebang, including the underlying hypothesis (assumption) at the basis of your arguments.

So back to the idea of "value of investment of time", and logic. There is no general value-metric available in Warframe (and please don't claim that the value of players time in the game should be measured in plat), so both the way that "value" is measured and how you measure it has to be distinctly personal. Which is logical, as it is anyone's personal time, fun and Warframe experience. What is illogical is the assumption on your part that DE in any way should be able to know and measure these millions of personal values, and that DE then should somehow use this data to make the game fit everyone's "values". That has to be based on an assumption that all players, or at least the majority of players, even use such a "value-metric" as a reason to play the game. That is, one that could be generalized in the form of game concepts affecting all. To further complicate this, in-game players value quite different stuff at different phases, which adds another dimension of fuzziness to the idea of some general value-metric (as an example: for some players at some point getting their first Smeeta Kavat is THE most important thing and the "value" they are currently experiencing and enjoying).

As to the arcane changes your central assumption (hypothesis) seems to be that it is an important goal of all or most players (or at least the players using arcanes) to have rank 5 arcanes, and additionally that their goal is to achieve this max level as quickly as possible. I don't dispute that this is the goal for some players (grinded doubles myself after all), but my guess would be that the players currently having and using double arcanes is a small fraction of the playerbase. These are the only ones being affected by the "arcane nerf", it has absolutely no effect on the majority of players (many of whom don't care about arcanes at all).

To sum it up your views then actually represent a part (the ones measuring their investment in time) of a part (the ones "not liking the arcane change") of a small part of the playerbase (those caring a lot about getting double R3 platinum arcanes). That is no problem, but it could be considered fair to include this determination as a background to your views, just to avoid a perception that you either claim to represent "the community/playerbase" or is just projecting your own views on huge numbers of Warframe players.

As to the comparisons to No Man's Sky, those are (logically speaking) a non-starter. You can't prove apples with pears, it's a formal logic fallacy.

You also make some other claims:

"The stats we do have indicate that DE doesn't know how to play their own game." - Which stats are those? And who are "we", coming to that conclusion?

"I'm angry that DE seems to not value the time of the free players, who support whales with content.  You need both, but this screams to me that DE actively hates people who don't spend money." - Why does Warframe "need whales"? And where is the proof that DE actively hates people who don't spend money? (tip: yes, of course DE needs money, but Warframe is a really and truly a F2P game)

"I hate the arcanes being devalued, but Primed Chamber being devalued is OK. This is a simple question of a mod with no real game changing potential being devalued by not being unique, versus game changing effects being hidden behind a huge grind wall." - Which "game changing effects" are those (concerning arcanes)? And what "value" is being devalued?

"It's just silly to have to spend money, spend money to buy platinum to spend money, and to be asked to buy prime packs 8 times a year now." - I don't understand the "have to spend money"?

"Refer back to my math.  DE has set this up for a year of constant grind to get arcanes." - As far as I know the drop chances are still the same, and you need 1 more arcane to reach the new rank 5 than to get double rank 3's (21 vs 20), so what is the math behind "a year of constant grind"?

"Between November 2018 (absolute peak players 132k) and today (71k peak in February) we've lost 61k people.  To lose effectively half of the player base after two large updates is..." - How exactly (math-wise) do you arrive at the conclusion of "losing half the player base" by measuring the amount of players online within a certain timeframe?

 - - -

And believe it or not, I am not "defending DE" or any such nonsense. I totally support your right to vent your anger (and your inherent right to be seriously pissed off), or to try to whip up animosity towards DE and Warframe (if that is what it is). I don't agree with all of your conclusions, but this is more about reaching those conclusions than about what they are. In this age of populism, "fake news"-idiocy and with the rising power of false information (or general stupidity of humanity, take your pick) I think it is important to draw some lines, even in a Warframe forum 🙂. And in all fairness I think you are aware of this, since you clearly declares your anger as a main driving force. Personally I'm more excited and interested in the changes, mainly because I believe I will get new opportunities to play around with builds, arcanes and shotguns (just to name a few things), and that ticks my own personal "value"-box.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Graavarg

[IwOwnage]

I understand that arcane changes are a big game-changer now. Not only because of their rank increase, in wich some arcanes will gain and some will loose with their usefullness, but also because you'll need to agonally farm for at least another set to max them out (except those who already had 2 max sets and double-stacked them).  BUT when I see people whining about how their builds are dead because of grace/energize nerf, because they don't have efficiency in their build etc., there's a newsflash: Arcanes are NOT main build tool. Mods are. And if your builds relies solely on arcanes, and can't do anything without them, you do it wrong. Change my mind.

Edited March 4, 2020 by IwOwnage

[SpringRocker]

33 minutes ago, IwOwnage said:

Arcanes are NOT main build tool. Mods are. And if your builds depends solly on arcanes, and can't do anything without them, you do it wrong. Change my mind.

Not trying to get into a fight, but getting +80% melee attack speed without using mods is a big one.

[master_of_destiny]

10 hours ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

Dude, you've clearly never done software QA.

The game is in perpetual beta on PC for a reason. PC players are the guinea pigs that test content before it's released to other platforms, and are given that content early as a consolation prize. 

Deal with it.

The problem with so many people is that they want their content and they want it now, but they're unwilling to accept the consequences of that. If DE waited until now to release Railjack, people like yourself would claim they were breaking their promises there as well. "It was supposed to release last year!" People like yourself also like to complain about content droughts.

With the NMS comparison... it has taken that small team years just to deliver on the promises that were made before the original launch, AND they didn't bother telling most people that those things weren't in the game before they put it up for sale. I think that's far more egregious than DE taking longer than expected to churn out free content they mentioned months or even years ago but haven't been able to properly tune yet.

Some of y'all need to realize that nobody is forcing you to buy anything, and nobody is forcing you to bumrush every new content drop, only to turn around complaining about how DE isn't releasing stuff quickly enough, or how what they've released isn't working quite right for you. Go play something else, or go do something else in the game. It won't kill you to let them hammer it out. You're not paying for it anyway.

And before you try to argue that "go play something else isn't a valid argument because player numbers have dropped from peak blah blah blah"... player numbers peaked so high because DE was releasing "open" maps that looked great and got a lot of attention from streamers and youtubers. They're still trying to deliver on the promises they made at Tennocon 2018, and a lot of people are content to sit back and wait for it. There are thousands of games out there. If you think player counts won't spike again when DE releases their next huge thing, you're fooling yourself. 51k people playing is damn good. That's better than most other non-esport or otherwise PvP-focused titles out there.

Oh, and a little side note about platinum for Tennogen... I'm quite certain that the reason you can't use Plat to buy Tennogen stuff is because it would be a pain to convert plat that was traded or sold at a discount into money that could be distributed to creators. Just saying.

Dude, you don't understand time.

 

Stopping for a moment here, if there were deadlines which DE didn't develop, I'd agree.  Content being promised by a certain date would necessitate that certain compromises were made, and thus the QA team missing bugs would be understandable.  The thing is, the only time they've given us dates is shortly before releases, and even then a lot of them come like our current windows of "Early March" and "April."  They release stuff to test on the PC so we can do basic bug fixing, and they can then go through the more rigorous QA checks for the consoles.  That's not an acceptable way to do QA, it's the minimum effort way.

 

DE can't produce content is a bad joke.  I used to say this, but DE themselves have cut this response off.  Why, Nightwave.  They decided to compete with Fortnite, and didn't make sure they had the resources.  Despite this being an inherently suicidal idea, we've now got an intermission that won't end and more intermissions than "seasons" of content.  Despite this, they're plowing on forward like everything is fine.  They decided to do this, because they decided the alert system should be thrown out rather than retooled.

 

I don't even know where to begin addressing your statements about player counts.  November 2018 was a peak due to the release of PoE and the media blitz.  Stopping one more time, the numbers we are experiencing now are pre-PoE levels, and that was not having any content for months in the lead-up to PoE.  Now we've got Railjack, Old Blood, and two events which are coming but still have such low numbers of players.  That's the flag here, huge content recently released and still not having people come back.  I don't care about e-sports, but the top 10 list from steam includes Ark, GTA 5, Monster Hunter World, Team Fortress 2, and Destiny 2.  Not many of those are e-sports, and Destiny 2 is something DE directly invites comparison against by virtue of their own marketing.

 

The Tennogen connundrum is simple.  DE sets prices on goods through their virtual currency.  They discount it at their whim.  They already have platinum purchases of tennogen on consoles, so what's the problem with that on PC?  Well, that's because they'd have to balance out the market and create a direct platinum to dollars conversion.  It seems like they've got that on consoles, but not PC.  I won't conjecture as to why, but saying this is impossible is pretty foolish when 3/4 platforms already do.  What makes PC special?

[(XBOX)ENA 34]

I think my favorite part is the shield gating on foes. I always thought of corpus as a push over of the other factions, all they had were nulls, but now I feel like it will be a bigger threat. Corpus are my favorite and I can't wait to have a good brawl with them for once.

[HomicidalGrouse]

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

Stopping for a moment here, if there were deadlines which DE didn't develop, I'd agree.  Content being promised by a certain date would necessitate that certain compromises were made, and thus the QA team missing bugs would be understandable.  The thing is, the only time they've given us dates is shortly before releases, and even then a lot of them come like our current windows of "Early March" and "April."  They release stuff to test on the PC so we can do basic bug fixing, and they can then go through the more rigorous QA checks for the consoles.  That's not an acceptable way to do QA, it's the minimum effort way.

It's perfectly acceptable for an indie developer making a f2p game to release content when they deem it finished and then patch it later. The game is huge. You really don't have an understanding of what it takes to test every aspect of a game like this, do you? If they had a full team of testers working 10 hour days on this content, it would take months of testing before any given update was "ready"... and there would STILL be bugs for you to whine about. Your expectations aren't even close to being realistic.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

DE can't produce content is a bad joke.  I used to say this, but DE themselves have cut this response off.  Why, Nightwave.  They decided to compete with Fortnite, and didn't make sure they had the resources.  Despite this being an inherently suicidal idea, we've now got an intermission that won't end and more intermissions than "seasons" of content.  Despite this, they're plowing on forward like everything is fine.  They decided to do this, because they decided the alert system should be thrown out rather than retooled.

Nightwave is objectively better than the old alert system, and it has nothing to do with Fortnite. It's a method of delivering existing content to players with more regularity, as well as providing some new lore stories and characters here and there. Also, we're on the second intermission, and have had two content nightwaves, so the statement about there being more intermissions than new lore editions is just blatantly untrue.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

I don't even know where to begin addressing your statements about player counts.  November 2018 was a peak due to the release of PoE and the media blitz.  Stopping one more time, the numbers we are experiencing now are pre-PoE levels, and that was not having any content for months in the lead-up to PoE.  Now we've got Railjack, Old Blood, and two events which are coming but still have such low numbers of players.  That's the flag here, huge content recently released and still not having people come back.  I don't care about e-sports, but the top 10 list from steam includes Ark, GTA 5, Monster Hunter World, Team Fortress 2, and Destiny 2.  Not many of those are e-sports, and Destiny 2 is something DE directly invites comparison against by virtue of their own marketing.

The only game in that list that doesn't have any focus on PvP is Monster Hunter World. All of the others either focus on PvP, or it's a huge aspect of their gameplay, and PvP is always going to be more popular than games with little to no focus on PvP, especially when the games without PvP have been around for 6 years. Nobody is playing or watching Warframe for the Conclave. The staying power of a game that is pretty much entirely PvE and has been around for the better part of a decade is impressive. Beyond that, acting like The Old Blood and Railjack are the same scope as something like PoE and Fortuna is just foolish. The Old Blood and Railjack are essentially unfinished parts of Fortuna. That's when they were revealed. Also, the Plains of Eidolon was released in 2017, not 2018. The peak numbers are from the launch of Fortuna, which promised to be PoE but bigger and better, and largely delivered on that promise. Once again, the release of a massive open world location with tons of new content being promoted by tons of youtubers and streamers is always going to be incredibly popular. I'm not sure why you think misrepresenting the size and scope of adding Liches to the game or even Railjack is helping you get your point across.

And yeah, let's compare Warframe to Destiny 2... which charges you for every major content release, charges you for loot boxes, charges you for cosmetics, and charges you for season passes... lol

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

The Tennogen connundrum is simple.  DE sets prices on goods through their virtual currency.  They discount it at their whim.  They already have platinum purchases of tennogen on consoles, so what's the problem with that on PC?  Well, that's because they'd have to balance out the market and create a direct platinum to dollars conversion.  It seems like they've got that on consoles, but not PC.  I won't conjecture as to why, but saying this is impossible is pretty foolish when 3/4 platforms already do.  What makes PC special?

Platinum works differently on consoles. They don't get Platinum at discounted prices. The price of Plat on consoles is static. What they get are discounts on individual purchases. That's a big difference, and it's probably one of the bigger issues facing the much-demanded cross-save implementation (along with the timing of updates in general). Because the price of Platinum of static, it's probably far easier to implement Tennogen items for Plat on consoles... just as easy as it is to implement static prices for Tennogen items on PC. This is a non-issue.

Edited March 4, 2020 by HomicidalGrouse

[thesyndrome]

"early next week"

so I guess this means we won't get scarlet spear for another 3 months, and the new war sometime in 2022

[Ash_L]

On 2020-02-28 at 4:02 PM, Nasair said:

``Arcane Energize:
On Rank 5: On Energy Pickup
60% chance to replenish Energy to nearby Allies
Added duration and Cooldown added (cannot re-trigger while active).``
Hopefully that cooldown isn't a big nerf.

can't double stack is already a BIG nerf. 

in the current ver., double stack basically translating to around 80% chance of getting small amount of extra energy, 20% ish chance of getting large amount of extra energy. ( I didn't work the math, someone did calculation and I recall the number is like that.)

After the update, no matter what the CD is, now you only can get at most 60% chance of getting small energy boost. No more big energy boost and now gotta deal with extra CD. 

Basically nerfing the arcane to the dust.  They might just as well as removing other operator focus trees because they becomes pointless, as everyone who cares about operator had to spam VD to get energy back.

I'd quit if this change gets through and made zenurik a must on the operator again.

[Animma]

So, anyone that’s done Railjack and/or Kuva litch farm just gets spat in the face as the content is now over 10 times faster to complete and 0 compensation to the people that played it prior to the dumb down patch. these changes might be great for the casual community but anyone that plays it for the sense of progression might as well gtfo. at least I know I won’t be playing any new content released until 6 month after the patch that is if I still remember this game exists.

[Mickey33]

il y a 4 minutes, Animma a dit :

So, anyone that’s done Railjack and/or Kuva litch farm just gets spat in the face as the content is now over 10 times faster to complete and 0 compensation to the people that played it prior to the dumb down patch. these changes might be great for the casual community but anyone that plays it for the sense of progression might as well gtfo. at least I know I won’t be playing any new content released until 6 month after the patch that is if I still remember this game exists.

K. bye. Good lord entitled Kids these days need a slap of reality.
Just go get some fresh air and leave the adults alone.

[Ash_L]

4 minutes ago, Animma said:

So, anyone that’s done Railjack and/or Kuva litch farm just gets spat in the face as the content is now over 10 times faster to complete and 0 compensation to the people that played it prior to the dumb down patch. these changes might be great for the casual community but anyone that plays it for the sense of progression might as well gtfo. at least I know I won’t be playing any new content released until 6 month after the patch that is if I still remember this game exists.

When focus tree first came out, it was super easy to grind and many players almost capped it or had mostly completed.

Then they add daily cap and made it harder to get focus exp.

There was no adjustment.

[Graavarg]

9 minutes ago, Ash_L said:

can't double stack is already a BIG nerf. 

in the current ver., double stack basically translating to around 80% chance of getting small amount of extra energy, 20% ish chance of getting large amount of extra energy. ( I didn't work the math, someone did calculation and I recall the number is like that.)

After the update, no matter what the CD is, now you only can get at most 60% chance of getting small energy boost. No more big energy boost and now gotta deal with extra CD. 

Basically nerfing the arcane to the dust.  They might just as well as removing other operator focus trees because they becomes pointless, as everyone who cares about operator had to spam VD to get energy back.

I'd quit if this change gets through and made zenurik a must on the operator again.

Well, maybe you should have done the math. Maybe all should do some math. If you have two R3 Energize equipped, the chance of both not triggering is 0.6 x 0.6, or 36%. Which means that at least one of them triggering is 64%.

Using one new R5 Energize the chance of it triggering is 60%. So the "huge nerfing into dust" of Energize is a measly 4% difference. That's what you give up, and what you win is the ability to equip an additional R5 arcane.

The actual effects are still not known, so it isn't possible to do a complete calculation, but at least regarding the chance to trigger: a "huge nerf" it isn't.

[XideBeast]

None of these things is important rn. The most important thing atm is when the updates drop.

[Ash_L]

2 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

Well, maybe you should have done the math. Maybe all should do some math. If you have two R3 Energize equipped, the chance of both not triggering is 0.6 x 0.6, or 36%. Which means that at least one of them triggering is 64%.

Using one new R5 Energize the chance of it triggering is 60%. So the "huge nerfing into dust" of Energize is a measly 4% difference. That's what you give up, and what you win is the ability to equip an additional R5 arcane.

The actual effects are still not known, so it isn't possible to do a complete calculation, but at least regarding the chance to trigger: a "huge nerf" it isn't.

If u double stack, u have a chance of proc double energizers, and that sustains most energy use. Equipping only one energizer will not have the same effect. Chance to trigger isn't yielding the same energy reward. 

 

 

 

[master_of_destiny]

55 minutes ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

It's perfectly acceptable for an indie developer making a f2p game to release content when they deem it finished and then patch it later. The game is huge. You really don't have an understanding of what it takes to test every aspect of a game like this, do you? If they had a full team of testers working 10 hour days on this content, it would take months of testing before any given update was "ready"... and there would STILL be bugs for you to whine about. Your expectations aren't even close to being realistic.

Nightwave is objectively better than the old alert system, and it has nothing to do with Fortnite. It's a method of delivering existing content to players with more regularity, as well as providing some new lore stories and characters here and there. Also, we're on the second intermission, and have had two content nightwaves, so the statement about there being more intermissions than new lore editions is just blatantly untrue.

The only game in that list that doesn't have any focus on PvP is Monster Hunter World. All of the others either focus on PvP, or it's a huge aspect of their gameplay, and PvP is always going to be more popular than games with little to no focus on PvP, especially when the games without PvP have been around for 6 years. Nobody is playing or watching Warframe for the Conclave. The staying power of a game that is pretty much entirely PvE and has been around for the better part of a decade is impressive. Beyond that, acting like The Old Blood and Railjack are the same scope as something like PoE and Fortuna is just foolish. The Old Blood and Railjack are essentially unfinished parts of Fortuna. That's when they were revealed. Also, the Plains of Eidolon was released in 2017, not 2018. The peak numbers are from the launch of Fortuna, which promised to be PoE but bigger and better, and largely delivered on that promise. Once again, the release of a massive open world location with tons of new content being promoted by tons of youtubers and streamers is always going to be incredibly popular. I'm not sure why you think misrepresenting the size and scope of adding Liches to the game or even Railjack is helping you get your point across.

And yeah, let's compare Warframe to Destiny 2... which charges you for every major content release, charges you for loot boxes, charges you for cosmetics, and charges you for season passes... lol

Platinum works differently on consoles. They don't get Platinum at discounted prices. The price of Plat on consoles is static. What they get are discounts on individual purchases. That's a big difference, and it's probably one of the bigger issues facing the much-demanded cross-save implementation (along with the timing of updates in general). Because the price of Platinum of static, it's probably far easier to implement Tennogen items for Plat on consoles... just as easy as it is to implement static prices for Tennogen items on PC. This is a non-issue.

Amazing.   You're managing to take my words, twist them, and get something completely wrong that fits your own agenda.

 

DE sets release.  That means when they release something broken it's their choice to do so.  You somehow justify this as it being acceptable to do so, where my point is they could have not released, done the bug fixing, and when the thing came out it could be good.  Somehow you've justified them releasing broken content, and it's acceptable.  Yeah, no.  If you don't have deadlines, the goal is to set a feature requirement and work towards it.  Once those features are done and tested you release.  That's basic QA.  You don't release something broken and buggy, based upon nebulous desires.  If DE was transparent about a constant release cycle, and some of the features were buggy, it'd be understandable.  Instead we have a release, less than 24 hours later a bunch of hotfixes, and I'm sat here asking why.

The argument is you ship something Wednesday, listen to bug fixes, and by Friday have everything working. The counter to that argument is that some of these hotfixes are pushed out literally hours after implementation, indicating that basic QA was skipped.  You can't have it both ways, but DE somehow deserves it both ways?  Again, no.  They're delivering a product they want us to spend money on.

 

Nightwave is objectively better than alerts?  What.  Define the objective standards.  From where I sit the goal here is to deliver more consistent rewards, with the consequences being that less rewards are on offer.  That's great for a veteran player, with dozens of each aura, nitain out the ears, and enough of the cosmetics that they never have to spend money.  If you're a new player it's placing necessary component behind a time gated wall.  Again, define your objective standards.

The alternative solution to this was simple.  Instead of alerts every couple of hours, for paltry rewards, you upped the rewards and make them last much longer.  Instead of a reward being 2000 credits you make it 20000 and have the mission run for 3-6 hours.  There's a cache of 3 cosmetic helmets on offer, but they only show up every 8-12 hours and run for 6 hours.  Minimum effort, with more rewards, that last long enough that people aren't angry they missed the 20 minutes at 1:30am local time where something dropped.  Instead, they copied someone else who was popular.  Bad move.  Objectively this system is bad for incoming players, good for people who have resources and cosmetics but still need reactors/catalysts, and mildly good for those of us who are looking at a few cosmetics but otherwise our primary reward for the grind is a couple of mods which may be useful and an umbra forma.  

Argue what you'd like here, but objectively better without objective qualifiers is useless.  Additionally, for each objective know that the old system may be better depending upon your own quantity of resources.

 

It's interesting that PvP is what you got from this.  Interesting in that you started by citing e-sports and changed once I gave examples.  As an aside, if PvP is somehow what your qualifier is then Warframe is PvP for conclave, and multiplayer required for things like Railjack.  You can continue to move the goal here, but once you settle on one thing please let me know.  I'll gladly either agree or disagree, but without boundaries this discussion is useless.

 

Platinum.  Sigh.  The two word answer here is "Market Discounts."  The larger answer is that DE can carve out the discounts from daily rewards, to harmonize the system.  They choose not to.  I would conjecture that the point here is that they generate sales with FOMO by having random platinum discounts.  What I'd also say is that I seem to get discounts far more often around holidays, though I don't have the math to demonstrate this is a thing.  Choosing not to harmonize is something on DE, not a limitation set about by some outside source.

[Grey_Star_Rival_Defender]

Remove double stacking, rebalance arcanes to be about 1.5x as powerful, don’t change the ranks and the grind DE.

[Grey_Star_Rival_Defender]

19 minutes ago, XideBeast said:

None of these things is important rn. The most important thing atm is when the updates drop.

All of these are much more important than Empyrean 2: Status Immune Boogaloo.

[AskForMercy]

В 28.02.2020 в 19:21, [DE]Rebecca сказал:

We are targeting a release early next week on PC.

[master_of_destiny]

4 hours ago, Graavarg said:

I think you mention the main thing here, and then misses it. The key word is "perspective".

In an earlier post you claimed that DE is devaluing the time of your investment. But this is a game, the general idea being that you play it for "fun", whatever that "fun" is for anyone. Anyone playing a game they truly dislike should have their head examined, don't you agree? Then there is a sort of paradox contained in the fact that something that was fun or meaningful in the past cannot be changed in the present, if you had fun doing something it might seem less fun now but you can't go back in time and "unfun" it. Done is done.

It is not uncommon to base arguments on assumptions (happens everywhere all the time), but since you use words like logic, consistency and perspective I assume that applies to the whole shebang, including the underlying hypothesis (assumption) at the basis of your arguments.

So back to the idea of "value of investment of time", and logic. There is no general value-metric available in Warframe (and please don't claim that the value of players time in the game should be measured in plat), so both the way that "value" is measured and how you measure it has to be distinctly personal. Which is logical, as it is anyone's personal time, fun and Warframe experience. What is illogical is the assumption on your part that DE in any way should be able to know and measure these millions of personal values, and that DE then should somehow use this data to make the game fit everyone's "values". That has to be based on an assumption that all players, or at least the majority of players, even use such a "value-metric" as a reason to play the game. That is, one that could be generalized in the form of game concepts affecting all. To further complicate this, in-game players value quite different stuff at different phases, which adds another dimension of fuzziness to the idea of some general value-metric (as an example: for some players at some point getting their first Smeeta Kavat is THE most important thing and the "value" they are currently experiencing and enjoying).

As to the arcane changes your central assumption (hypothesis) seems to be that it is an important goal of all or most players (or at least the players using arcanes) to have rank 5 arcanes, and additionally that their goal is to achieve this max level as quickly as possible. I don't dispute that this is the goal for some players (grinded doubles myself after all), but my guess would be that the players currently having and using double arcanes is a small fraction of the playerbase. These are the only ones being affected by the "arcane nerf", it has absolutely no effect on the majority of players (many of whom don't care about arcanes at all).

To sum it up your views then actually represent a part (the ones measuring their investment in time) of a part (the ones "not liking the arcane change") of a small part of the playerbase (those caring a lot about getting double R3 platinum arcanes). That is no problem, but it could be considered fair to include this determination as a background to your views, just to avoid a perception that you either claim to represent "the community/playerbase" or is just projecting your own views on huge numbers of Warframe players.

As to the comparisons to No Man's Sky, those are (logically speaking) a non-starter. You can't prove apples with pears, it's a formal logic fallacy.

You also make some other claims:

"The stats we do have indicate that DE doesn't know how to play their own game." - Which stats are those? And who are "we", coming to that conclusion?

"I'm angry that DE seems to not value the time of the free players, who support whales with content.  You need both, but this screams to me that DE actively hates people who don't spend money." - Why does Warframe "need whales"? And where is the proof that DE actively hates people who don't spend money? (tip: yes, of course DE needs money, but Warframe is a really and truly a F2P game)

"I hate the arcanes being devalued, but Primed Chamber being devalued is OK. This is a simple question of a mod with no real game changing potential being devalued by not being unique, versus game changing effects being hidden behind a huge grind wall." - Which "game changing effects" are those (concerning arcanes)? And what "value" is being devalued?

"It's just silly to have to spend money, spend money to buy platinum to spend money, and to be asked to buy prime packs 8 times a year now." - I don't understand the "have to spend money"?

"Refer back to my math.  DE has set this up for a year of constant grind to get arcanes." - As far as I know the drop chances are still the same, and you need 1 more arcane to reach the new rank 5 than to get double rank 3's (21 vs 20), so what is the math behind "a year of constant grind"?

"Between November 2018 (absolute peak players 132k) and today (71k peak in February) we've lost 61k people.  To lose effectively half of the player base after two large updates is..." - How exactly (math-wise) do you arrive at the conclusion of "losing half the player base" by measuring the amount of players online within a certain timeframe?

 - - -

And believe it or not, I am not "defending DE" or any such nonsense. I totally support your right to vent your anger (and your inherent right to be seriously pissed off), or to try to whip up animosity towards DE and Warframe (if that is what it is). I don't agree with all of your conclusions, but this is more about reaching those conclusions than about what they are. In this age of populism, "fake news"-idiocy and with the rising power of false information (or general stupidity of humanity, take your pick) I think it is important to draw some lines, even in a Warframe forum 🙂. And in all fairness I think you are aware of this, since you clearly declares your anger as a main driving force. Personally I'm more excited and interested in the changes, mainly because I believe I will get new opportunities to play around with builds, arcanes and shotguns (just to name a few things), and that ticks my own personal "value"-box.

I'm going to be real here, after sentence three your point breaks down.  I'd agree with you, but I stated my point clearly.  To recap from the older stuff

 

The devaluation of time is stated as a function of grinding the game like a job versus working a minimum wage job.  I'm going to hit the highlights here, but:

RNG drops mean that you can never tell how long something takes, only what percentage is likely to have the drop.

A 5% drop, with 3 chances every several hours, means an effective 10 hour day of grinding would offer about 12 drop chances.

50% of the population would have to get the drop at about 96% likelihood for us to have 50% of players have 21 arcanes (one single fully ranked rare).

This amounts to 223 days of play at 3 captures a day in order to get 50% of players with a fully ranked arcane (56 days playing 10 hours a day), which is not a bit of money for less grind.  It's paying someone else to grind for you or engaging with the grind longer than most people will care to play the game.  In short, pay to win.

If you wanted the math; 10 hours/day, $7.50 per hour, 56 days, is $4200.  Three max ranked arcanes for 50% of the player base is worth $4200 (way more because I'm assuming 10 hours a day at 7 days a week, my previous math built this in and I have not here). 

 

There's my objective devaluation of player time.  DE is stating that spending a couple thousand in platinum, or about $80 for a prime access pack, is worth $4200 in raw labor time to grind the content. Payers objectively win because grinders literally need to spend a full time job earning items which offer measurable power.

 

 

I'm not inclined to jump up and down to praise DE when they do something right.  There are already bunches of people that do this, and if you need examples go to their twitter.  I think there are plenty of people praising them, so I'd like to provide what is needed.  What is needed is somebody showing them what is broken, so they can address it and keep going on.  Most people don't invest that kind of time, and just leave when things suck.  My friends list is proof positive of this, and their feedback is what I try to focus on.  If this is offensive to you, and you believe it's intended to drive animosity for DE, then you're missing the point.

I don't care to say that DE sucks, and have not.  I have stated time and again that their decisions are stupid.  I also generally follow this up with why.  It's to try and articulate what the players should feel and understand.  If you disagree, fine.  Give me a fact and not feels reason.  I'd accept something like doing the math on shield gating, and showing that frames like Vauban and Hildryn would now be able to curb stomp enemies via their regeneration, but what is delivered is a picture of an s-curve and some general statements of the feels.  That's not something I can work with, so I'm not going to be excited until numbers come out.  

If it helps, the last thing I was excited for in Warframe was Ember.  The rework was weird, changed her from a trash burner into a niche burner, and when combined with heat proc armor stripping was interesting.  This all came about because the changes to heat were explained, the changes to her mechanics were explained, and whether I liked it or not it was fun to see.  The last time I laughed with Warframe was Primed Chamber.  It was a mod whose viability was single shot snipers, which the game hasn't focused on since the Vectis.  The math on both of these was easy to follow through, and I didn't have to call in the feels.  I look forward to when we see the math on shield gating, the  new drops on arcanes, and some other stuff.  Right now though, they have only shown things which are a net negative.  That's why I'm angry about arcanes, but don't show positivity to what may be excellent for shotguns and shields.

[warmastercain]

Well early next week has come and gone its half way through already sooo de where's our de layed update 

[HomicidalGrouse]

33 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

DE sets release.  That means when they release something broken it's their choice to do so.  You somehow justify this as it being acceptable to do so, where my point is they could have not released, done the bug fixing, and when the thing came out it could be good.

Exactly which part of "it would takes LITERALLY MONTHS for them to properly test all this" are you not understanding? Again... your attitude here proves that you've never actually worked QA before. I have. They're pumping out content because if they took the months it would take them to pay a team to test everything (and it's still impossible to squish every bug before release anyway), you people would be crying about content droughts more than you already do. It's simply more efficient to release something when you think it's ready to go, then patch it after people find the random junk that would otherwise take, and I emphasize this again, MONTHS... to fix. And I don't mean an extra month. I mean, if they were still trying to test Railjack to your standards, it wouldn't be out. Liches likely wouldn't be out yet. Fortuna would have probably released last year instead of 2018.

You don't have any idea what you're talking about here. Period.
 

 

37 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Nightwave is objectively better than alerts?  What.  Define the objective standards.  From where I sit the goal here is to deliver more consistent rewards, with the consequences being that less rewards are on offer.  That's great for a veteran player, with dozens of each aura, nitain out the ears, and enough of the cosmetics that they never have to spend money.  If you're a new player it's placing necessary component behind a time gated wall.  Again, define your objective standards.

Nightwave allows players to perform the actions they want to perform, when they want to perform them, and establish their own goals and achievements. Alerts required you to monitor them regularly, or join a discord or something that would notify you of the items you wanted, and then you'd have to manage your time to be available during the time those alerts were available. Nightwave is an objectively better system because it gives the player more power over the objectives they complete, when they play, and what rewards they get. On top of that, it introduces new cosmetics, gives players a way to get otherwise paid items (like slots) for free, and even introduces some new enemies, mechanics, and bits of lore.

Now please, oh wise one... explain to me the objective ways in which you think Nightwave is somehow inferior to Alerts. And no, "they could have done it this other way that I think I'd like more" is not a valid argument or criticism.

 

41 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

It's interesting that PvP is what you got from this.  Interesting in that you started by citing e-sports and changed once I gave examples.  As an aside, if PvP is somehow what your qualifier is then Warframe is PvP for conclave, and multiplayer required for things like Railjack.  You can continue to move the goal here, but once you settle on one thing please let me know.  I'll gladly either agree or disagree, but without boundaries this discussion is useless.

If you go back and read my initial response to you, you'd see that I very clearly stated that most of the most-played games on Steam at any given moment have an esports angle or are otherwise PvP focused.

There is no shifting of goalposts. No one cares about the Conclave. No one watches Warframe on Twitch because of the Conclave. For all intents and purposes, Warframe is an exclusively PvE game, while all of the other popular games that maintain high numbers of players on any given day (with the exception of extremely new releases, for as long as those last) are heavily embedded within esports and PvP. People play Ark because it's an open-world multiplayer survival game with a heavy PvP slant. People play GTA5 because of GTAO, which is heavily focused on PvP. People play TF2 because of the PvP. Destiny 2 also has a very strong PvP component in the Crucible and Iron Banner.

Most games require a PvP element in order to maintain high player numbers over the course of years. Do you disagree with this statement? If not, why do you think it's somehow a mark against Warframe, a game that relies almost exclusively on PvE content, which has been around for over 6 years now, to only be in the bottom portion of the top most-played games on steam for any given day? 99.9% of PvE-focused games don't maintain numbers like that. Period.

 

47 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Platinum.  Sigh.  The two word answer here is "Market Discounts."  The larger answer is that DE can carve out the discounts from daily rewards, to harmonize the system.  They choose not to.  I would conjecture that the point here is that they generate sales with FOMO by having random platinum discounts.  What I'd also say is that I seem to get discounts far more often around holidays, though I don't have the math to demonstrate this is a thing.  Choosing not to harmonize is something on DE, not a limitation set about by some outside source.

Why should they remove Plat discounts from daily rewards? Just so that you stop complaining about not being able to buy Tennogen stuff for Plat? What is the actual argument for this other than "I want to be able to trade for these things instead of having to buy them"? You complain about DE wanting you to spend money on a game that you claim is "broken", yet you whine about not wanting to actually buy stuff.

[Upright1]

Isn’t arcane detoxifier just arcane resistance?