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2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh.


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2 hours ago, Ash_L said:

can't double stack is already a BIG nerf. 

in the current ver., double stack basically translating to around 80% chance of getting small amount of extra energy, 20% ish chance of getting large amount of extra energy. ( I didn't work the math, someone did calculation and I recall the number is like that.)

After the update, no matter what the CD is, now you only can get at most 60% chance of getting small energy boost. No more big energy boost and now gotta deal with extra CD. 

Basically nerfing the arcane to the dust.  They might just as well as removing other operator focus trees because they becomes pointless, as everyone who cares about operator had to spam VD to get energy back.

I'd quit if this change gets through and made zenurik a must on the operator again.

I usually only run one Energize and that is enough that I don't always feel like I need Zenurik.
Nerfing Energize actually give me less options in operator schools 😞

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@DE

Tenno having a unique health/armor/shield type is a great idea, but why start it off with all neutral values?

1) Leave the modifiers the way they were for the initial release. Change them later based on gameplay feedback.

2) Create a separate class of tenno health/shield/armor just for Conclave. Tenno_PvE vs Tenno_PvP. This way you can balance the two separately over time.

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2 hours ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

Exactly which part of "it would takes LITERALLY MONTHS for them to properly test all this" are you not understanding? Again... your attitude here proves that you've never actually worked QA before. I have. They're pumping out content because if they took the months it would take them to pay a team to test everything (and it's still impossible to squish every bug before release anyway), you people would be crying about content droughts more than you already do. It's simply more efficient to release something when you think it's ready to go, then patch it after people find the random junk that would otherwise take, and I emphasize this again, MONTHS... to fix. And I don't mean an extra month. I mean, if they were still trying to test Railjack to your standards, it wouldn't be out. Liches likely wouldn't be out yet. Fortuna would have probably released last year instead of 2018.

You don't have any idea what you're talking about here. Period.
 

 

Nightwave allows players to perform the actions they want to perform, when they want to perform them, and establish their own goals and achievements. Alerts required you to monitor them regularly, or join a discord or something that would notify you of the items you wanted, and then you'd have to manage your time to be available during the time those alerts were available. Nightwave is an objectively better system because it gives the player more power over the objectives they complete, when they play, and what rewards they get. On top of that, it introduces new cosmetics, gives players a way to get otherwise paid items (like slots) for free, and even introduces some new enemies, mechanics, and bits of lore.

Now please, oh wise one... explain to me the objective ways in which you think Nightwave is somehow inferior to Alerts. And no, "they could have done it this other way that I think I'd like more" is not a valid argument or criticism.

 

If you go back and read my initial response to you, you'd see that I very clearly stated that most of the most-played games on Steam at any given moment have an esports angle or are otherwise PvP focused.

There is no shifting of goalposts. No one cares about the Conclave. No one watches Warframe on Twitch because of the Conclave. For all intents and purposes, Warframe is an exclusively PvE game, while all of the other popular games that maintain high numbers of players on any given day (with the exception of extremely new releases, for as long as those last) are heavily embedded within esports and PvP. People play Ark because it's an open-world multiplayer survival game with a heavy PvP slant. People play GTA5 because of GTAO, which is heavily focused on PvP. People play TF2 because of the PvP. Destiny 2 also has a very strong PvP component in the Crucible and Iron Banner.

Most games require a PvP element in order to maintain high player numbers over the course of years. Do you disagree with this statement? If not, why do you think it's somehow a mark against Warframe, a game that relies almost exclusively on PvE content, which has been around for over 6 years now, to only be in the bottom portion of the top most-played games on steam for any given day? 99.9% of PvE-focused games don't maintain numbers like that. Period.

 

Why should they remove Plat discounts from daily rewards? Just so that you stop complaining about not being able to buy Tennogen stuff for Plat? What is the actual argument for this other than "I want to be able to trade for these things instead of having to buy them"? You complain about DE wanting you to spend money on a game that you claim is "broken", yet you whine about not wanting to actually buy stuff.

You have no idea what I'm saying.  I'm not talking a completely bug free release, that's what you've decided that I mean.  I'm talking the kind of bugs that show up within minutes.  If you'd like to highlight specific examples, let's check out the 27.0.2 release, the second after 27.0.  December 13th, and the list of critical fixes causing crashes is huge.

You seem to think I expect 100% right releases...and that's wrong.  I expect visual bugs, texture issues, and even the occasional game breaker.  I don't expect logging into the game and discovering that I can die because I used my powers.

You seem to believe in the superiority of your experience.  If that makes you happy, power to you.  I want something stable enough to play.  I want to have an update and not worry that I'm suddenly not going to be able to use a warframe because their powers crash the system, or the act of doing a mission will simply teleport you into a void, or even that a capture target can literally fall through the world and fail you a mission because of issues.

 

Calling me wise is interesting.  You finally showed me what your objective standards are, and it's nothing.  "I can choose not to participate" is not a reward.  Your argument is the same as alerts.  To get everything possible from Nightwave you have to grind out things, like 30 minute kuva survivals.  That isn't player choice, it's hiding rewards behind forcing players to do content they otherwise wouldn't.  As an example, if I want Nitain I now have to go out and forma items, kills silver grove specters, and do 30 minute survivals.  I have to do enough to earn 75 points, offered in 15 point increments for 10,000 standing.  My choice is to spend money or grind, it's no different from the alerts with the exception that the time frame is weekly rather than much shorter.

The "wise one" schtick is old, and your arguments are parroting what DE said at the start.  The problem is that your math is bad, and you're trying to fit everyone from newbies to veterans into the same mold.  It doesn't work.  Newbies can't power up, veterans see grind for stuff they don't need, and the underlying math is such that DE is driving people to grind a bit more for points because it's not a 1:1 reward payout.  My remaining 10, 5, and 10 credits for the previous waves confirms this.

 

 

Most games are e-sports or PvP.  Please stop.  You're basically trying to justify that only games heavy on PvP or e-sports have a community.  I'll suggest that you then have to explain Monster Hunter World, but justify that as an outlier.  One whose entire gimick is the exact same as Warframe but you have to purchase it at full price.  No, you can ignore that one.  It's not changing the goalposts to suggest Warframe is devoid of PvP, and making up the numbers (99.9% of single player games not in the top 10 is as accurate as 99.9% of PvP not there either).  I implore you, justify that statement.  Also, justify how Conclave doesn't exist, how Monster Hunter World is not reasonable to consider in a sample size of 10, and exactly why a decline of 51k peak users is not a concern despite recently releasing two huge updates.

While you do that, I'd like to propose an alternative.  You like Warframe, and it hurts to see someone rip on it.  There are plenty of worse games out there, and my poison is not as bad as their poison.  That may not be you, but it's what I see often.  Once you realize that this game will eventually die, and you'll go on living, it's easier to detach.  It's easier to see that it, like all games, is imperfect.  That people pointing out these imperfections don't hate you, or the game.  They see what is broken, and are trying to point it out so it can be fixed.

Ironically, pointing out what is broken is trying to get it fixed.  It's easy to mistake this for hate, but it's far more difficult to be able to see and articulate what is wrong while still loving the thing.  I hate decisions DE makes, I hate that they don't listen.  I don't hate their game, or they themselves.  Grasping that is often times difficult because people invest themselves into the game and it's hard to separate its criticism from personal ones.

 

Regarding your final point....sigh.  Think it through.  On consoles they don't have platinum discounts.  You buy platinum, you get something that could be used to buy anything.  You play on PC, and you buy platinum.  The second Tennogen comes out you then have to plink down more real money, because you can't use that platinum to buy it.  Mirror consoles, who have no discount, and you can use the stuff you already paid for to buy a digital item.  

The removal of discounts isn't what I desire, it's the ability for platinum to be used to buy all goods.  If losing discounts is necessary for this, then I'm fine with that.  You somehow missed the fact that I spent money already, want to use it, and am unwilling to spend more because I can't use what I already paid for to get what I want.  If you'd like to misinterpret, let's use an example.  I walk into a Chuck-E-Cheese, and buy $20 worth of tokens.  I can use them to then trade directly for prizes.  That is until the last case.  That case has prices in USD for items, and the tokens are no good.  I cannot convert the tokens back to USD, and the reason for this is that sometimes they offer a 50% discount on the USD to token transaction.

 

 

 

I'm looking forward to these words being twisted.  I'd recommend that you attack what a 100% bug free experience is.  That's the easiest to misinterpret.  It's also pretty reasonable to blame all of this on disparate hardware configurations, because DE doesn't have infinite money to test everything.  That would be a valid point, but again this is patching critical issue within 24 hours of a release, which should have been delayed those 24 extra hours.

I'd also suggest attacking the PvP.  It's nebulous to claim games with long standing are all e-sports of PvP focused.  It's really ironic when you consider that Starcraft 2 is still being played and it can be 100% PvE, or interpreted as an e-sport, just like PUBG, despite sharing literally nothing in common.  When you define something so vaguely it's silly easy to simply change scope and tell other people that they're wrong because you changed what shade of interpretation you're using.  By the same logic Warframe is in fact a mobile game because Happy Zephyr and Frame Fighter are present.  It's really frustrating that those things exist, isn't it?  It's almost like you've suggested a 1st or 3rd person perspective game is always going to be 9 of the top 10 games at a minimum, because the amount of 2nd person perspective games is negligible (I can only think of the animated novel games myself, but I'm sure something else exists out there).

Please, this is fun.  Continue.  It's infinitely better than the hours and hours of Eidolon fights to get 5 arcane barriers.  167 captures and 52 kills of the Hydrolyst, and 5 barriers are all I have to show. 

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2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

The devaluation of time is stated as a function of grinding the game like a job versus working a minimum wage job.  I'm going to hit the highlights here, but:

RNG drops mean that you can never tell how long something takes, only what percentage is likely to have the drop.

A 5% drop, with 3 chances every several hours, means an effective 10 hour day of grinding would offer about 12 drop chances.

50% of the population would have to get the drop at about 96% likelihood for us to have 50% of players have 21 arcanes (one single fully ranked rare).

This amounts to 223 days of play at 3 captures a day in order to get 50% of players with a fully ranked arcane (56 days playing 10 hours a day), which is not a bit of money for less grind.  It's paying someone else to grind for you or engaging with the grind longer than most people will care to play the game.  In short, pay to win.

If you wanted the math; 10 hours/day, $7.50 per hour, 56 days, is $4200.  Three max ranked arcanes for 50% of the player base is worth $4200 (way more because I'm assuming 10 hours a day at 7 days a week, my previous math built this in and I have not here). 

There's my objective devaluation of player time.  DE is stating that spending a couple thousand in platinum, or about $80 for a prime access pack, is worth $4200 in raw labor time to grind the content. Payers objectively win because grinders literally need to spend a full time job earning items which offer measurable power.

So to you Warframe (at least it's "grinding for stuff"-parts) is like working a minimum wage job for money? And "the payment" for this "job" are the drops, and thus it disturbs you that the drops are randomized? And you also equalize made-up digital stuff in an online game to money (real or plat)?

I am going to quote myself here: The key word is "perspective". Or call it assumption, hypothesis or something else. But in this case you are applying your own personal assumptions to other players (all of them in fact) in a multiplayer online game, then you multiply this further by applying your own monetary logic to the game components. So when you are pissed because your "salary" is both random and affected by the game developers' decisions making the game more interesting to play for "everyone" (which affects the monetary value of your time in the game by affecting the loot) you assume that you are speaking for everyone. But you are not.

You are of course free to think and play whatever way you like. I know for a fact that you are not alone, I have friends grinding stuff for plat. In it's own way it is an accolade for Warframe as a game (environment), that in addition to everything else it even allows "grinding for salary" to become the main thing for those so inclined. I play Warframe only for fun, and I'm pretty sure that is (much) more fun than playing for plat. While having fun I've still managed to gather all double R3 of all the arcanes (I think I am at 30+ Energize) and while there are some grinds where I've had bad luck (58 Marduk runs for Bullet Dance), not once have I felt that I am grinding for "salary" or that I would want a "salary" for grinding.

Maybe it would surprise you that my guess is that most players actually play Warframe for fun? And with "most" I really mean the overwhelming majority of players. When it isn't fun anymore players stop playing, some leave forever while others take a break and come back. Experienced Tenno that have "been there and done that" also adapt the amount they play according to the amount of fun available, so many reduce their playing time when there is little of interest to do and increase it when new things arrive. You'll see a noticeable increase of high-MRs after the mainline drops, and even more with Scarlet Spear. Because they suspect or hope that it will be fun again.

An important point concerning random drops and drop chances: whether it is a fun (and free) lottery or a horrible grind is simply down to your own expectations, and to these expectations only. All the rest is just math, and everything in Warframe is voluntary, even the lotteries. 

So, to sum it up. To me it seems you first apply your own personal assumptions to the game, then you project this onto all players ("the population"), and then you criticize the upcoming changes from this perspective. But since it is not really about all players or the "whole population", instead mostly about yourself and how you play, why not say so instead? Making it to be about everyone doesn't strengthen the arguments, rather the opposite.

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From what I have read about the upcoming patch. I like the changes. I am a relatively new player to the game, So I dont have the invested time to the arcanes as others do. So to me this choice is not so bad. as for the self damage removal .. I think that is a good change. yes it breaks Chroma but from what i have read about Chroma. That frame has been in need of a rework for some time. I have seen far to many deaths due to Kuva Brama weapons since i have played. be it the companion/pet / Players moving or jumping in front / Enemies teleporting around due to lag / or even hitting things like Ivara's wires somehow. I have seen far to many people Die from RNG than someone shooting too close to themselves . as for the status changes . I look forward to this. the previous calculations looked broken and made a lot of status shotguns look really bad. I am looking forward to how this change because it will give more options for players. but being newer to the game i really don't understand a lot of the salt going on in this thread. there seems to be a lot of people mad because some youtuber or some twitch streamer got mad. I can't wait for this update to go live ( with out being a buggy mess) these changes look like they will add more to the game play than take away from it . 

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While alot of the fixed are good, I still think overall this update annoys me more that it pleases me.

It was already a huge , almost impossible chore to get 10 of the same arcanes legit, now we need 20. Alot of the best arcanes are getting nerfed, and our beloved shotguns are getting murdered. There's small fixes here and there, but nothing that dramatically improves the main game (quality of life improvements doesn't equal play time).

It's been three and a half months since RJ dropped and it hasn't received any content. 1/5th of 2020 is already gone with the team only fixing stuff that should have shipped in a playable state like Liches and RJ.. And the content drought is as real as it's ever been (already maxed my intrinsics, got most RJ avionics and top tier part). It's back to logging in only for the logging rewards for me.

Scarlett Spear and Nightwave S3 are long overdue imho. Games live or die by their content, and I feel we only get 2-3 medium content drops a year in WF lately, not enough for sustainable playtime through the year.

Edited by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra
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40 minutes ago, kerellian said:

From what I have read about the upcoming patch. I like the changes. I am a relatively new player to the game, So I dont have the invested time to the arcanes as others do. So to me this choice is not so bad. as for the self damage removal .. I think that is a good change. yes it breaks Chroma but from what i have read about Chroma. That frame has been in need of a rework for some time. I have seen far to many deaths due to Kuva Brama weapons since i have played. be it the companion/pet / Players moving or jumping in front / Enemies teleporting around due to lag / or even hitting things like Ivara's wires somehow. I have seen far to many people Die from RNG than someone shooting too close to themselves . as for the status changes . I look forward to this. the previous calculations looked broken and made a lot of status shotguns look really bad. I am looking forward to how this change because it will give more options for players. but being newer to the game i really don't understand a lot of the salt going on in this thread. there seems to be a lot of people mad because some youtuber or some twitch streamer got mad. I can't wait for this update to go live ( with out being a buggy mess) these changes look like they will add more to the game play than take away from it . 

Playing about three years straight. I do like these changes, too!

However, given previous experience, I do expect some bugs at the start. On the other hand, I'm a programmer and I do know a lot about bugs, believe me. Even Linux (the thing is developed by thousands of very qualified programmers and tested by millions of fans) contains bugs. And even windows does (the thing is developed by extremely big company with extremely good QA wing). It's just the scale and probabilities. It's possible to math-prove the code is bug-free, only the costs is... well, nuclear plants can afford that, military and space can too... and all others just count their money and envy them and bear with the bugs somehow. 😉 

Just for reference: there was a KNOWN bug in Oracle DBMS that lasted, inclusively, from version 7 to 11 (and after that it became irrelevant to me, so I didn't monitor it any further). That's some 20 years. And warframe is just a game... 😉 

Edited by daktfi
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5 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Well, maybe you should have done the math. Maybe all should do some math. If you have two R3 Energize equipped, the chance of both not triggering is 0.6 x 0.6, or 36%. Which means that at least one of them triggering is 64%.

Using one new R5 Energize the chance of it triggering is 60%. So the "huge nerfing into dust" of Energize is a measly 4% difference. That's what you give up, and what you win is the ability to equip an additional R5 arcane.

The actual effects are still not known, so it isn't possible to do a complete calculation, but at least regarding the chance to trigger: a "huge nerf" it isn't.

It's a free to play game. Most players can't even link 2 dots with a straight line. 

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On 2020-03-01 at 7:14 PM, Galadh said:

But that's exactly what makes the game fun: striving to proceed further, to trying to think of ways how to make the credit gain more quick and reliable - how to get to Index for example. The thrill of waiting for like "ahh, then I will finally will be able to..." -

Dude, you like torturing yourself? There is a limit to what is satisfying, and you literally have to grind the index for quite some hours to get all the credits needed. Like with everything, having to do anything for so long gets boring real quick.

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On 2020-03-01 at 7:14 PM, Galadh said:

- it gave me a reason to try harder, go further, learn more, try to figure out everything what I needed to know...

And PS. do you know how long you have to run with weapons that are really S#&$ to get to the good guns? To be able to participate in everything in the game you have to be mr. 16, rivens, kuva weapons etc. Do you know how painfully slow the road to get there is? Most my friends are burned out at mr 8 because the grind is so out of wack. I only made it, back in the day, because im more patient than most people.

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On 2020-03-01 at 7:14 PM, Galadh said:

But that's the whole point to go on, to beat all hardships and uneven odds. Kinda... Space-ninja like, Id' say. Struggle to go on, to better yourself.

All im actually trying to say is

1. 2000 credit rewards for ```endgame``` Sedna are really bullS#&$

and

2. This is a video game, not a day job. People have jobs to go to, or genarally have things to do in their lives, and then coming home to do the same missions over and over and over isnt remotely fun or rewarding.

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1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

Regarding your final point....sigh.  Think it through.  On consoles they don't have platinum discounts.  You buy platinum, you get something that could be used to buy anything.  You play on PC, and you buy platinum.  The second Tennogen comes out you then have to plink down more real money, because you can't use that platinum to buy it.  Mirror consoles, who have no discount, and you can use the stuff you already paid for to buy a digital item.  

The removal of discounts isn't what I desire, it's the ability for platinum to be used to buy all goods.  If losing discounts is necessary for this, then I'm fine with that.  You somehow missed the fact that I spent money already, want to use it, and am unwilling to spend more because I can't use what I already paid for to get what I want.  If you'd like to misinterpret, let's use an example.  I walk into a Chuck-E-Cheese, and buy $20 worth of tokens.  I can use them to then trade directly for prizes.  That is until the last case.  That case has prices in USD for items, and the tokens are no good.  I cannot convert the tokens back to USD, and the reason for this is that sometimes they offer a 50% discount on the USD to token transaction.

I agree with the this. I would really like to buy Tennogen with Plat so I have something to spend my plat on. I have thousands of plat (not trying to flex here) but nothing to spend it on. All cosmetics I can buy with plat that I actually like I own.

Rivens are basically dead to me since the one time I invested a catalyst, 5 forma and specifically bought a riven for a weapon I really like only to have DE nerf the weapon just one week later... ouch.

Have more reactors, catalysts and forma then I even need. Same for resources and slots.

Give it away to friends? All my friends have left Warframe basically lol.

Would be nice to have something to spend it on. Especially once I heard that you can buy Tennogen on consule with plat... Feelsbadman. And no I don't buy plat with money. I don't really see the point.

I also see no reason to spend actual money that I can use to buy food lol on little points of data in a video game that will die eventually. Now if the game would keep going even after DE decided lets shut it down? Sure why not spend some money to look cool. But yeah I don't see that happening.

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On 2020-03-01 at 1:12 AM, SordidDreams said:

No, it won't. It will only cause your lich to gain anger and possibly spawn in mission nodes it doesn't own. It's not going to magically complete its mission nodes that you didn't go to, and I have no idea why you'd think it would.

If you're going to go through the effort of forcing your lich to retreat every time without making attempts on them sure. 

 

On 2020-03-01 at 1:12 AM, SordidDreams said:

Again, I agree. That is, again, why I didn't suggest it.

The change you are suggesting, or at least supporting (i.e. lich aggroes outside of its territory), is one that would change how the whole player base would have to deal with lichs. If they implemented that change, but did not also change it so that lichs would then start lvling on forced retreats too, then it could work. 

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3 minutes ago, baoyouming said:

If you're going to go through the effort of forcing your lich to retreat every time without making attempts on them sure. 

Again, their health bar disappears in one shot of my Redeemer, and you said you didn't have any trouble with them either. I can understand not having to deal with a high-rank lich, that can be a PITA if you're undergeared, but you claim not to be, so pressing a button three times is hardly worth all this fuss you're making about it.

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3 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Again, their health bar disappears in one shot of my Redeemer, and you said you didn't have any trouble with them either. I can understand not having to deal with a high-rank lich, that can be a PITA if you're undergeared, but you claim not to be, so pressing a button three times is hardly worth all this fuss you're making about it.

And again, it's not for me, it's for the undergeared players who can actually do the lich system the way it is designed now. I could go back to farming solo if I wanted to, but since these aren't eidolons or PT I don't see any reason to make it arbitrarily harder for less progressed players. If I pug into an eidolon hunt without a trinity I nope TF out of there. If I pug into a lich with an MR 6 Idgaf because they can actually contribute without slowing us down or interfering with the mission progress. 

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52 minutes ago, daktfi said:

Playing about three years straight. I do like these changes, too!

However, given previous experience, I do expect some bugs at the start. On the other hand, I'm a programmer and I do know a lot about bugs, believe me. Even Linux (the thing is developed by thousands of very qualified programmers and tested by millions of fans) contains bugs. And even windows does (the thing is developed by extremely big company with extremely good QA wing). It's just the scale and probabilities. It's possible to math-prove the code is bug-free, only the costs is... well, nuclear plants can afford that, military and space can too... and all others just count their money and envy them and bear with the bugs somehow. 😉 

Just for reference: there was a KNOWN bug in Oracle DBMS that lasted, inclusively, from version 7 to 11 (and after that it became irrelevant to me, so I didn't monitor it any further). That's some 20 years. And warframe is just a game... 😉 

I have done QA and many years of IT. I do understand that there are things well beyond their control or what they can test inhouse. doesn't mean i can't hope for a not so buggy release.

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On 2020-03-02 at 4:06 AM, Svenarx said:

It LL be hard to make ESO missions with an arcane energize nerfed..  (No gear in this mode). In game players will say :

"Dps !!! Use your 4 on Saryn"

"Wait, take your time..  I'm waiting the cooldown from arcane energize, Just 10 sec..."

5sec after...

"Sorry, ennemies kill us"

Thumbs Up (or down) for DE

You know that's why focus farm metas run EV trin right? There are many reasons to hate the arcane nerf but this isn't one of them.

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Removing self-damage and making explosive weapons relevant again had just brought in so much positive feedback, only for you to spit right back in our faces and add 90% damage fall-off. Why does there always have to be a catch to stuff like this? It's like this game cant have a single change in gameplay without the fun-police busting in and gimping it right at the last second. Atleast be reasonable about it and make it 50% or something. Come on man...

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1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

You have no idea what I'm saying.  I'm not talking a completely bug free release, that's what you've decided that I mean.  I'm talking the kind of bugs that show up within minutes.  If you'd like to highlight specific examples, let's check out the 27.0.2 release, the second after 27.0.  December 13th, and the list of critical fixes causing crashes is huge.

Not everyone experiences those. It's a minority of players. Which is part of what makes stuff like that so difficult to test.

You're right, I'm leaning heavily on my experiences as a tester. I know that no matter how many hours you put in, stuff is always going to slip through the cracks, and then people like yourself are going to whine about it and act like you didn't do your job. And the developers are going to have to patch all the crap you couldn't find later anyway. What you want is simply not feasible. You claim you're not arguing for a 100% bug-free release, yet you ignore the fact that bugs are squished before launch of all of these updates anyway. You ignore the fact that to find everything with a limited number of people would take months. You ignore the fact that tens of thousands of people playing a game for a day are going to find more bugs than any number of testers you could hire.

 

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

No, you can ignore that one.  It's not changing the goalposts to suggest Warframe is devoid of PvP, and making up the numbers (99.9% of single player games not in the top 10 is as accurate as 99.9% of PvP not there either).  I implore you, justify that statement. 

I can't justify something that is complete nonsense... which is exactly what it is with the way you stated it. I have no idea what garbage you're trying to put in my mouth here, but let's break it down into some really simple terms...

The top fifteen games on Steam currently are as follows...

CSGO: PvP/esports
DOTA2: PvP/esports
PUBG: PvP/esports
Siege: PvP/esports
Ark: Survival/PvP
GTA5: Sandbox/PvP (there's a reason Rockstar only makes multiplayer DLC now, you know)
Football Manager: multiplayer fantasy football game
Rocket League: PvP/esports
TF2: PvP
Destiny 2: Shooter looter with a heavy PvP angle
Monster Hunter World: RGP
Rust: Survival/PvP
Warframe: PvE shooter looter
BDO: MMO
MCC: PvP

Are you capable of noticing the pattern here? Why is it so difficult to understand that games that aren't focused on PvP are rarely left with numbers as high as those Warframe is maintaining? PvP games always have more regular players than PvE games... and yet Warframe is still up there in popularity. The fact that players have dropped since the hype of Fortuna's release isn't relevant. And no matter how many times you want to act like The Old Blood and Railjack are as big as Fortuna was... they're not. They were never going to be. There is no anomaly here. Warframe is doing very well despite being almost exclusively PvE, and not having a major content release like the Plains and Fortuna in over a year and a half.
 

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Calling me wise is interesting.  You finally showed me what your objective standards are, and it's nothing.  "I can choose not to participate" is not a reward.  Your argument is the same as alerts.

No, you're not forced to do any of those specific things. You can do them if you wish and end up with plenty of creds to buy whatever bits and pieces you need, and if you do just want creds, they've even weighted them to the front of the drop list, and you get nothing BUT creds after you hit 30. None of the objectives in Nightwave are difficult to do. The few that are geared more toward veteran players can easily be skipped. New players aren't even relevant when comparing to alerts because you needed to have the nodes the alerts were on unlocked before you could play them anyway, which locked many new players out unless they got sherpa'd to them, and if they could get sherpa'd to alerts, they can get sherpa'd through Nightwave objectives.

None of what you said refutes anything I said about Nightwave. Explain how it's not a player choice when you're given a currency that you can spend on whatever you need? Explain how it's not a player choice to give you a series of objectives you don't need to complete in order to get what you want. Explain how it's not a player choice to give you an entire week to complete the objectives instead of restricting you to a couple of hours. Explain how nightwave having lore, enemies, and mechanics that aren't seen in the normal game is not superior to alerts which were just normal missions and had none of that.

You say my examples of objectivity are nothing, yet you don't have a SINGLE ONE to prove that alerts are somehow better. Not a single one. You claim Nightwave is hiding points behind things players wouldn't otherwise do... so were alerts. I certainly didn't want to play two waves of Interception of Pluto at midnight on a Tuesday just to get some Nitain.

Nightwave IS objectively superior... which is probably why you're basically the only person still whining about it. The only other people complaining are wondering where the next season is.
 

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

The removal of discounts isn't what I desire, it's the ability for platinum to be used to buy all goods.  If losing discounts is necessary for this, then I'm fine with that.

Well I'm not, and I'm quite certain a lot of other people aren't either. Paying a static price to buy something is such a non-issue, it's not even funny. You're literally just whining because you can't use some in-game currency to buy something you don't need. What's really amusing is the fact that just a few paragraphs before, you were whining about mismatched in-game nightwave currencies...

Make up your mind, dude.
 

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

That would be a valid point, but again this is patching critical issue within 24 hours of a release, which should have been delayed those 24 extra hours.

And you know that these vague and nebulous issues would have been discovered in a reasonable time period by however many testers DE employs? Compared to tens of thousands of players? All of them? Enough to satisfy whatever your own arbitrary definition of "not broken" is?

Go get a job testing software. Maybe then you won't be so ignorant about it.
 

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

It's really ironic when you consider that Starcraft 2 is still being played and it can be 100% PvE

Yeah, go look on twitch and tell me how many people are watching and playing Starcraft 2 for the PvE...

Man, what a dumb argument. SMH

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34 minutes ago, baoyouming said:

it's not for me

Quit getting offended on other people's behalf. They're perfectly capable of speaking for themselves.

34 minutes ago, baoyouming said:

it's for the undergeared players who can actually do the lich system the way it is designed now

And again, they will continue to be able to do so.

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46 minutes ago, EighthGear said:

Removing self-damage and making explosive weapons relevant again had just brought in so much positive feedback, only for you to spit right back in our faces and add 90% damage fall-off. Why does there always have to be a catch to stuff like this? It's like this game cant have a single change in gameplay without the fun-police busting in and gimping it right at the last second. Atleast be reasonable about it and make it 50% or something. Come on man...

If it’s awful, then DE says they’ll make it less punishing up until they’re happy with it.

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3 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Calling me wise is interesting.  You finally showed me what your objective standards are, and it's nothing.  "I can choose not to participate" is not a reward.  Your argument is the same as alerts.  To get everything possible from Nightwave you have to grind out things, like 30 minute kuva survivals.  That isn't player choice, it's hiding rewards behind forcing players to do content they otherwise wouldn't.  As an example, if I want Nitain I now have to go out and forma items, kills silver grove specters, and do 30 minute survivals.  I have to do enough to earn 75 points, offered in 15 point increments for 10,000 standing.  My choice is to spend money or grind, it's no different from the alerts with the exception that the time frame is weekly rather than much shorter.

The "wise one" schtick is old, and your arguments are parroting what DE said at the start.  The problem is that your math is bad, and you're trying to fit everyone from newbies to veterans into the same mold.  It doesn't work.  Newbies can't power up, veterans see grind for stuff they don't need, and the underlying math is such that DE is driving people to grind a bit more for points because it's not a 1:1 reward payout.  My remaining 10, 5, and 10 credits for the previous waves confirms this.

Man I remember falling asleep on Earth defense just for that one stupid unit of Nitain. Or that Volt helmet. That sure was “player choice.”

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1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

So to you Warframe (at least it's "grinding for stuff"-parts) is like working a minimum wage job for money? And "the payment" for this "job" are the drops, and thus it disturbs you that the drops are randomized? And you also equalize made-up digital stuff in an online game to money (real or plat)?

I am going to quote myself here: The key word is "perspective". Or call it assumption, hypothesis or something else. But in this case you are applying your own personal assumptions to other players (all of them in fact) in a multiplayer online game, then you multiply this further by applying your own monetary logic to the game components. So when you are pissed because your "salary" is both random and affected by the game developers' decisions making the game more interesting to play for "everyone" (which affects the monetary value of your time in the game by affecting the loot) you assume that you are speaking for everyone. But you are not.

You are of course free to think and play whatever way you like. I know for a fact that you are not alone, I have friends grinding stuff for plat. In it's own way it is an accolade for Warframe as a game (environment), that in addition to everything else it even allows "grinding for salary" to become the main thing for those so inclined. I play Warframe only for fun, and I'm pretty sure that is (much) more fun than playing for plat. While having fun I've still managed to gather all double R3 of all the arcanes (I think I am at 30+ Energize) and while there are some grinds where I've had bad luck (58 Marduk runs for Bullet Dance), not once have I felt that I am grinding for "salary" or that I would want a "salary" for grinding.

Maybe it would surprise you that my guess is that most players actually play Warframe for fun? And with "most" I really mean the overwhelming majority of players. When it isn't fun anymore players stop playing, some leave forever while others take a break and come back. Experienced Tenno that have "been there and done that" also adapt the amount they play according to the amount of fun available, so many reduce their playing time when there is little of interest to do and increase it when new things arrive. You'll see a noticeable increase of high-MRs after the mainline drops, and even more with Scarlet Spear. Because they suspect or hope that it will be fun again.

An important point concerning random drops and drop chances: whether it is a fun (and free) lottery or a horrible grind is simply down to your own expectations, and to these expectations only. All the rest is just math, and everything in Warframe is voluntary, even the lotteries. 

So, to sum it up. To me it seems you first apply your own personal assumptions to the game, then you project this onto all players ("the population"), and then you criticize the upcoming changes from this perspective. But since it is not really about all players or the "whole population", instead mostly about yourself and how you play, why not say so instead? Making it to be about everyone doesn't strengthen the arguments, rather the opposite.

Stop.  Please.  Your statement was what is my metric.  You follow up with a huge statement that platinum value for what drops is not an objective standard.  Fine, I'll bite.  I never suggested as such, but I'm not going to just tell you that you are trying to make me a straw man.  Can you please at least attack a point I've made?

 

What I'm telling you objectively is that Warframe can be compared to a minimum wage job, and you can get the amount of money you would receive working versus the item costs.  This is basic math, and it's a way to standardize costs of a virtual currency versus a real world standard for time invested.  If you have issues with this because it's a game, stop playing free to play and just buy a full priced game.  I know Mass Effect was $60, and I could choose how many side missions I played to get a variable cost per hour of game.  Warframe is the opposite, where expenditure to platinum should match hours of grind skipped.

 

The math here is that the average player gets a single rare arcane drop.  They have to weigh selling it for platinum against the time it would take to earn a full set, and the math is so insanely weighted to not pursuing the content it isn't funny.  This would be OK if the thing was something cosmetic.  You show your dedication to grind or money, and it's not game influencing.  The catch is arcanes are not.  Arcanes are a direct means of power, and the insane new grind values player time at 4200:80 for a minimum wage job.  If you get something actually livable it's likely 10000+:80.  That's an insult, and DE should be made aware that we know it.

 

Regarding terminology, wow.  Statistics man, statistics.  Given that this is an RNG based loot system, an individual would have to experience a heck of a lot to be relevant in any way.  I know there are people out there with multiple rare arcanes now maxed, that have run less than I did.  There are also people who could run twice as many as I did and get worse.  You can't talk about the player, but the population because the rewards are not controlled.

If this somehow escapes you, let me ask you to play the lottery.  The odds are printed as 1 in 20 wins.  There are 200 tickets, so you figure out that there are 10 winners.  You buy 40 tickets, and don't win.  Your friend buys 10, and wins three times.  You buy another 100, and only win twice.  The remaining tickets are sold to a third person who wins 5 times.  You bought 140 tickets and won twice.  Your friend bought 10 and wins three times. The third person bought 50 and won 5 times.  200 sold, 10 wins, so the RNG math is good.  The thing is you're not having fun because that reward hit at a ratio of 2:140 while the happiest soul won at a 3:10 ratio. 

Regarding the fun side...come on.  Getting a good reward is fun.  The rare arcanes are good rewards.  It's nice to get one, and frustrating to run for weeks at a time getting nothing more than the commons.  Saying the gameplay in itself is a reward is so fundamentally wrong.  If you just want to play the game, and don't care, I'd suggest a virtual slot machine game that that doesn't actually require payments.  A slot machine is largely what this game is, and the consolation prize is if you don't get something good you may have fun.   

 

 

I'd also like to comment on the term perspective.  You seem to believe that my objective analysis of the RNG is not valid because your subjective perspective is that fun is had.  Fine, but talking about someone's subjective perspective is useless.  There are people who subjectively like standing in line at the DMV, but objectively a two hour wait is unreasonable and they should probably increase their headcount if that's their standard waiting time 80% of their active hours.  Note that what I did there is not RNG waiting, and that system is largely designed to obscure and lengthen grind in Warframe.  

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