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DO NOT remove self damage. It is a legitimate drawback and a niche some players welcome.


TheLexiConArtist
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Obligatory seed from the workshop thread:

3 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

DO NOT REMOVE SELF DAMAGE. It CAN and SHOULD exist.

Remember the Tonkor.

 

INCREASED REWARD comes with balancing DRAWBACKS. Personal risk is a legitimate and even enjoyable drawback if you care to master it.

Please. Don't let the whiners make you cave and steal away niche fun from the players who actually liked it and didn't mind putting themselves on their back from time to time because it was their own fault, and they accepted that.

Alternatives exist. Nobody is forced to use self-damage weaponry. Not all weaponry has to work in every situation. 

 

Let us wield a REAL risk if we choose to do so. If you're going to address the self-damage, do it by changing the formula, not the mechanics.

 

That's the long and the short of it, up there. But as can be traced back quite easily in my post history, I've had a long history of preserving and defending the role of self-damage in Warframe.

Who thought this was a good solution?

Oh, that's right. The vocal player minority who don't actually like explosives. Because explosives, naturally, come with the drawback of putting yourself at some risk.

 

What about the players who like that? Who see that they had all the information necessary to not hit themselves when they triggered that explosion? Who accept that they died because of their own judgement?

Why are they not allowed to have their weapon niche when Warframe is all about developing wide variety over tall progression depth?

 

The ONLY problems with self damage lie in three factors:

  1. When you do not have the information to predict where the damage event will happen. 
    1. Cyanex homing projectiles could not be properly predicted. Self-damage was appropriately removed for gameplay purposes in this case.
    2. It could be argued that lingering triggered explosives (Penta etc.) exhibit this factor. Supplying small UI marker elements on your (limited number of) lingering explosive payloads could solve this.
  2. When your allies' hitboxes get in the way.
    1. Due to Warframe's general pacing, this cannot be allowed. It also interferes with non-self-damage gameplay. Ally collision should simply be removed unless there is a use case for it, e.g. sticking bombs to buddies you can trigger later.
  3. A distorted scaling of risk and reward.
    1. This is the BIG one but it is one that can be SOLVED by simply using a formula. The problem is that, for enemy health which scales up rapidly while player health scales finitely, having a linear link between modding output and increasing self-damage cannot adequately keep the risk/reward ratio in line.

 

Resolving self-damage scaling:

We do not use flat damage values, as these become irrelevant depending on your warframe or buffs. Irrelevant (or zero, obviously) cannot be allowed as this breaks the risk/reward connection.

We do not use percentage damage values, as these defy build mitigation. Tank frames (person in bomb-protective suit) should, obviously, be more resilient to their own explosive's damage as compared to a paper frame (person in shorts and t-shirt).

 

We need to apply a diminishing return factor. An elastic bond between output and self-damage that stretches with modding output so that it can scale to fatal levels but doesn't do so until the output (reward) is also as significant.

I am just an armchair mathematician, but some time ago I suggested the equation thus:

* ( 1 - ( X / ( ^ ( Y / D ) ) )

Where D = DAMAGEX = DIMINISHING FACTOR; Y = DIMINISH THRESHOLD.

Tweaking X and in that formula can squash and stretch the damage progression drastically.

Example:

Y = 100; X = 1

D(500) = 355 self-damage (appx 71%)

D(5000) = 783 self-damage (appx 15.7%)

D(1000000) = 1380 self-damage (appx 0.14%)

At the maximum diminishing factor of 1, we can see that massive outputs are still 'survivable'.

Y = 100; X = 0.99

D(500) = 357 self-damage (appx 71.4%)

D(5000) = 825 self-damage (appx 16.5%)

D(1000000) = 11366 self-damage (appx 1.14%)

Reducing the rate of diminish allows fatal self-damage to scale down into higher accessible levels.

Y = 30; X = 0.99

D(500) = 159 self-damage (appx 32%)

D(5000) = 296 self-damage (appx 6%)

D(1000000) = 10410 self-damage (appx 1.04%)

Reducing the point of diminishment lowers the floor of reduced damage at small values, while preserving most of the upper-boundary risk (depending on rate) at higher values.

 

I'm not saying that's a perfect formula. But it's a proof of concept.

Self damage can be kept mechanically intact, and at most, only needs formulaic fixing to correct risk-to-reward.

 

Keep self damage.

 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Can't wait to see it gone.

Plus, the vocal minority that wants self damage gone is only as big as the vocal minority that wants in in-game. That's a moot point.

Indeed. I can't count the number of times I blew myself up because a Nullifier deflected it back at me or a teammate jumped in front of me.

Edited by Duality52
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2 minutes ago, Duality52 said:

Indeed. I can't count the number of times I blew myself up because a Nullifier deflected it back at me or a teammate jumped in front of me.

Teammates, as I said, are a legitimate criticism that affects other things (it's just more of an immediate negative response than just having your shots intercepted from killing enemies all the time).

Nullifiers are a very visible and known factor. You might blow yourself up as a result of them, but they're something you have the capacity to anticipate. It's not self-damage's fault if we as players make a bad judgement call.

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Explosives have no place in the close quarters faced past fighting of raiding a ship anyway. If this game had more emphasis on slow pacing and room clearing like other games then explosives would be fine, as it is you're more likely going to kill yourself on accident at least once if you bring an explosive weapon. I know someone that doesn't use frags in other games because of the risk of blowing yourself up. I personally love explosives in games due to the ability of ending long fights very quickly by either destroying enemies in cover or flushing them out and eliminating them. 

 

I was on the fence with self damage, it has a place to prevent people being trigger happy with explosive weapons but at the same time it heavily punishes one class of weapon that is situational at best and a hazard at worst. 

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Just now, TheLexiConArtist said:

It's not self-damage's fault if we as players make a bad judgement call.

Self-damage was suppose to be a "high-risk, high reward". So far, the Kuva Bramma fulfills that, yet people prefer weapons that perform the same job with no self-damage whatsoever:

  • Staicor (Hildryn's Balefire Charger)
  • Arca Plasmor/Fulmin/Catchmoon
  • Amprex, Kuva Nukor, etc.

Removing self-damage in favor of a stagger gives these weapons a new chance to shine. Unlike being punished with death for self-damage, you are given a chance to recover from the stagger.

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13 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Who forced you to suffer from it? What makes your gain of 10-or-so weapons, out of several hundred, more relevant than removing an entire gameplay niche from players who don't mind, or even enjoy it?

If you enjoy dying so much spam radiation missions. A lot of people do not enjoy dying to self damage.

Do not try to defend suicide. STOP TO TROLLING. Self-damage to trolling. Just put it down, back of the yard and boom. Self-damage no more.

I enjoy my Ogris, my Penta, my Lenz. But the problem is self damage on them, and I really enjoy these three. Or I would IF THERE WERE NO SELF DAMAGE. So what forced me to suffer it? SELF-DAMAGE DID! Self-damage is suffery. "oh well if you don't like this or that... don't suffer it", just turn the other cheek on what you like because of a useless mechanic. You like self-damage? Good for you. Not for me. I want it gone and it will be gone. There is nothing you or other trolls like you can do to stop this. Next up, complaining that weapons do damage.

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9 minutes ago, Duality52 said:

Self-damage was suppose to be a "high-risk, high reward". So far, the Kuva Bramma fulfills that, yet people prefer weapons that perform the same job with no self-damage whatsoever:

  • Staicor (Hildryn's Balefire Charger)
  • Arca Plasmor/Fulmin/Catchmoon
  • Amprex, Kuva Nukor, etc.

Removing self-damage in favor of a stagger gives these weapons a new chance to shine. Unlike being punished with death for self-damage, you are given a chance to recover from the stagger.

The trouble is that people complaining about self-damage obstruct the weapons from getting power increases. Remember when Cautious was introduced? When it was improved? "GG I still kill myself". If you're trying to stem that sort of complaint, a power increase is only going to add more work for yourself.

The Arca/Fulmin/Catchmoon are similar to the old Tonkor. They take a weapon class and remove its core limitation, resulting in something busted. No self-damage made a busted 'explosive'. No pellet spread makes for busted 'shotguns'.

Continuous AOEs have different limitations. Ammo economy is rarely good. You have to wait for enemies to die, during which they can shoot you.

 

Now, these are all alternatives. And because they exist, does it really matter if preferences fall that way? Does it really require removing a set of gameplay options entirely? I had fun taking the risk when I was in a mood to do so. When I wasn't, I didn't use an explosive. What's wrong with that approach? Now I'll just have lifeless tools, not niches that shake up my gameplay noticeably.

1 minute ago, Acersecomic said:

If you enjoy dying so much spam radiation missions. A lot of people do not enjoy dying to self damage.

Do not try to defend suicide. STOP TO TROLLING. Self-damage to trolling. Just put it down, back of the yard and boom. Self-damage no more.

I enjoy my Ogris, my Penta, my Lenz. But the problem is self damage on them, and I really enjoy these three. Or I would IF THERE WERE NO SELF DAMAGE. So what forced me to suffer it? SELF-DAMAGE DID! Self-damage is suffery. "oh well if you don't like this or that... don't suffer it", just turn the other cheek on what you like because of a useless mechanic. You like self-damage? Good for you. Not for me. I want it gone and it will be gone. There is nothing you or other trolls like you can do to stop this. Next up, complaining that weapons do damage.

You didn't like the Ogris and Penta, because part and parcel of those weapons is the risk you run for the way they deal damage.

You wanted to have your cake and eat it too. The Staticor is waiting. Leave self-damage weapons alone and choose the alternatives that exist instead of calling everyone who doesn't share your ideals a 'troll'.

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Just now, TheLexiConArtist said:

You didn't like the Ogris and Penta, because part and parcel of those weapons is the risk you run for the way they deal damage.

You wanted to have your cake and eat it too. The Staticor is waiting. Leave self-damage weapons alone and choose the alternatives that exist instead of calling everyone who doesn't share your ideals a 'troll'.

No. I want my Ogris and Penta. I do not want self-damage that comes with them. I like and enjoy those two weapons, but they are tiresome to play when I have to be careful an ally doesn't run in front of me.

Should I say you don't like air because you have to breathe it otherwise you die? Go tell someone else they don't like something. Troll.

I will not chose an alternative. I want their looks, their projectiles, their stats, their sounds.

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3 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

The trouble is that people complaining about self-damage obstruct the weapons from getting power increases. Remember when Cautious was introduced? When it was improved? "GG I still kill myself". If you're trying to stem that sort of complaint, a power increase is only going to add more work for yourself.

The Arca/Fulmin/Catchmoon are similar to the old Tonkor. They take a weapon class and remove its core limitation, resulting in something busted. No self-damage made a busted 'explosive'. No pellet spread makes for busted 'shotguns'.

Continuous AOEs have different limitations. Ammo economy is rarely good. You have to wait for enemies to die, during which they can shoot you.

 

Now, these are all alternatives. And because they exist, does it really matter if preferences fall that way? Does it really require removing a set of gameplay options entirely? I had fun taking the risk when I was in a mood to do so. When I wasn't, I didn't use an explosive. What's wrong with that approach? Now I'll just have lifeless tools, not niches that shake up my gameplay noticeably.

You didn't like the Ogris and Penta, because part and parcel of those weapons is the risk you run for the way they deal damage.

You wanted to have your cake and eat it too. The Staticor is waiting. Leave self-damage weapons alone and choose the alternatives that exist instead of calling everyone who doesn't share your ideals a 'troll'.

The most logical thing I've heard against self damage is that it only effects one class of weapons that are already lacking since they have almost no ammo compared with more useful high damage weapons. So weapons with aoe had the downsides of self damage that other weapons don't have, and the weapon itself is only decent in most scenarios. As well as the fact that you can put blast on a weapon and never blow yourself up, in that case why ever use proper explosive weapons? 

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4 minutes ago, Acersecomic said:

No. I want my Ogris and Penta. I do not want self-damage that comes with them. I like and enjoy those two weapons, but they are tiresome to play when I have to be careful an ally doesn't run in front of me.

Should I say you don't like air because you have to breathe it otherwise you die? Go tell someone else they don't like something. Troll.

I will not chose an alternative. I want their looks, their projectiles, their stats, their sounds.

I see you didn't read the post then, because I agreed allies getting in the way has to go. But that doesn't mean you remove self-damage.

Their stats includes the ability to hit yourself with the explosion. Therefore, you either want that risk or you don't want the weapon.

If I used the Gorgon and I liked its fire rate and mag capacity, but felt it was 'tiresome' to reload, insisting that the reload speed and per-shot damage was brought up to the level of the Latron while keeping the mag capacity and fire rate, do you see how unreasonable this is?

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48 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Oh, that's right. The vocal player minority who don't actually like explosives. Because explosives, naturally, come with the drawback of putting yourself at some risk.

Let me ask you. What was the gain though?

Because with a risk there is usually a reward. What exactly is the current reward with explosive weapons when I can just crashdown into the enemy with my melee and wipe the group out the same way an Ogris does but faster and without a risk?

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6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Let me ask you. What was the gain though?

Because with a risk there is usually a reward. What exactly is the current reward with explosive weapons when I can just crashdown into the enemy with my melee and wipe the group out the same way an Ogris does but faster and without a risk?

exactly. while my orthos prime is wiping large areas with no worry of any kind. or staticor, or catchmoon, arca plasmor, fulmin, ignis, amprex. atomos etc.

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1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I see you didn't read the post then, because I agreed allies getting in the way has to go. But that doesn't mean you remove self-damage.

Their stats includes the ability to hit yourself with the explosion. Therefore, you either want that risk or you don't want the weapon.

If I used the Gorgon and I liked its fire rate and mag capacity, but felt it was 'tiresome' to reload, insisting that the reload speed and per-shot damage was brought up to the level of the Latron while keeping the mag capacity and fire rate, do you see how unreasonable this is?

Wanting damage of Tiberon with a Gorgon's fire rate and magazine would be unreasonable, not blowing yourself up is a fair desire when using a weapon. 

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I am extremely excited that they finally went with self-incapacitation instead of self-damage (I, among a few others, have been suggesting this repeatedly). Self-incapacitation works much better in line with the game's high pace and its general "risk-reward" system. The current self-damage system has always felt massively out of place since they went more and more towards making the game a chaotic hordeshooter, rather than a tactical-esque shooter.

Edited by Azamagon
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Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Let me ask you. What was the gain though?

Because with a risk there is usually a reward. What exactly is the current reward with explosive weapons when I can just crashdown into the enemy with my melee and wipe the group out the same way an Ogris does but faster and without a risk?

5 minutes ago, (XB1)Red Dough Boy said:

The most logical thing I've heard against self damage is that it only effects one class of weapons that are already lacking since they have almost no ammo compared with more useful high damage weapons. So weapons with aoe had the downsides of self damage that other weapons don't have, and the weapon itself is only decent in most scenarios. As well as the fact that you can put blast on a weapon and never blow yourself up, in that case why ever use proper explosive weapons? 

Some of this is rooted in what I've already mentioned with the backlash DE risk from the complainer crowd for buffing them to where they ostensibly should be. The "already killed myself, GG" portion who disregard the actual comparison of risk and reward. Maybe DE was looking for the sweet spot where they could make the risk dangerous but not deadly as early.

Radial damage is more reliable to hit groups than trying to line up for solid punch-through. No damage falloff. You could, and of course should be at a safe distance from the target. You could go in for melee, eat a knockdown, and get flattened. 

I've obviously not said the risk/reward ratio was perfectly balanced for numbers, but that doesn't mean it can't be - that the mechanical risk/reward factors don't match up close enough in potential.

 

As a side-note, damage types can be somewhat abstract. Blast damage doesn't have to come from a conventional piece of ordnance. Quanta cubes come to mind. That's some energy shenanigan producing blast damage. I wouldn't call that inconsistent in theme.

1 minute ago, (XB1)Red Dough Boy said:

Wanting damage of Tiberon with a Gorgon's fire rate and magazine would be unreasonable, not blowing yourself up is a fair desire when using a weapon. 

I can use a Kulstar in my Frost's not-Overextended snowglobe, right now, without killing myself if I play well. Sometimes I don't play well enough, but I chose to use it in tight quarters. That risk is still there, I just operated around it instead of needing a Cautious Shot, in much the same way you'd have the choice of putting more damage into your Gorgon's mods instead of using Fast Hands for reload times to get the overall output you want.

4 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

I am extremely excited that they finally went with self-incapacitation instead of self-damage (I, among a few others, have been suggesting this repeatedly). Self-incapacitation works much better in line with the game's high pace and its general "risk-reward" system. The current self-damage system has always felt massively out of place since they went more and more towards making the game a hordeshooter, rather than a tactical-esque shooter.

One of the biggest problems with incapacitating yourself is that, if the damage of the explosive is where it should be, most everything around your impact point is liable to be dead and not shooting you. Maybe knocked down as well, pending Blast proc. So you've.. mildly inconvenienced yourself. Not really risked anything.

That's also ignoring the ability to mod away the negligible-risk even further. Handspring. Primed Sure Footed. Basically no drawback then.

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1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

One of the biggest problems with incapacitating yourself is that, if the damage of the explosive is where it should be, most everything around your impact point is liable to be dead and not shooting you. Maybe knocked down as well, pending Blast proc. So you've.. mildly inconvenienced yourself. Not really risked anything.

That's also ignoring the ability to mod away the negligible-risk even further. Handspring. Primed Sure Footed. Basically no drawback then.

Ummm... enemies are dispersed all around you, they are definitely not always just all in the same spot. Being knocked down by a shot means you'll be exposed to gunfire from enemies from other locations. And that is still assuming the enemies you shot at are killed / incapacitated in the first place, which might not alway be the case.

And being to mod away from it is fine by me, as you're sacrificing a valuable modslot for a nice utility, as it should be.

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2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Ummm... enemies are dispersed all around you, they are definitely not always just all in the same spot. Being knocked down by a shot means you'll be exposed to gunfire from enemies from other locations. And that is still assuming the enemies you shot at are killed / incapacitated in the first place, which might not alway be the case.

And being to mod away from it is fine by me, as you're sacrificing a valuable modslot for a nice utility, as it should be.

Not much of a 'sacrificed' mod-slot when it's so useful for other knockdown annoyances (and as I understand, IS used by a large proportion of players?). Of course, since Weapon Exilus, neither was Cautious, really. But it's still cutting a heavy portion of an already far too heavily removed balancing drawback.

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

This is why we can’t get anything done. Because any major change that’s actually a benefit people crawl out of the woodwork to protect it over redundant niche things.

It's not a benefit to anything but laziness and imbalance. I'm not going to appeal-to-purity and say you can't have an opinion if you didn't see the days of Old Tonkor, but let me assure you, it wasn't good.

It's a mistake of the past that should not be repeated.

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29 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

It's not a benefit to anything but laziness and imbalance. I'm not going to appeal-to-purity and say you can't have an opinion if you didn't see the days of Old Tonkor, but let me assure you, it wasn't good.

It's a mistake of the past that should not be repeated.

It gives players one less reason to ever consider using Revenant. Putting him that much closer to a rework. How that isn’t a benefit is beyond me.

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51 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It gives players one less reason to ever consider using Revenant. Putting him that much closer to a rework. How that isn’t a benefit is beyond me.

Two in the same update. The shield gate thing is basically the same as a Mesmer Skin charge. 

But yeah, all the self-damage fights have been done over and over again, no one has anything new to say about it, I will not miss it.

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