DO NOT remove self damage. It is a legitimate drawback and a niche some players welcome.

[MobyTheDuck]

You need to be some sort of masochist to enjoy self damage that much and make an argument about risk/reward. What is my risk of getting my Ignis/Mesa and just destroy the entire map?

Its not a vocal minority, most people do hate it, pretty much everyone in my clan/alliance hates it, people on global chat hate it, pretty much the entire chat on the stream was "finally" when they said it was going to be removed, with some going "BUT ABOUT MUH EASY CHROMA STACKS" (which they said, it was one versus all the other frames).

You can live without it, its not like its going to..... hurt.

[TheLexiConArtist]

24 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Think of it as an opportunity to push for Self Damage an opt-in mechanic. For instance, 

Reckless Shot: Weapons with Stagger gain +150% damage, +20% explosion radius.  Stagger now causes Self Damage.

While amusing for memes, it'd have to be multiplicative (like Primed Chamber) to be slot-worth. Also that wouldn't resolve the problem with it being improperly balanced regardless the mod.

[Tiltskillet]

1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

While amusing for memes, it'd have to be multiplicative (like Primed Chamber) to be slot-worth. Also that wouldn't resolve the problem with it being improperly balanced regardless the mod.

The numbers and attributes are placeholder, of course.  And while it shouldn't be overtuned, undertuning a bit is safe.  The primary purpose is to give something back to people who enjoy the danger of blowing themselves to smithereens.

[GPrime96]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Because with a risk there is usually a reward. What exactly is the current reward with explosive weapons when I can just crashdown into the enemy with my melee and wipe the group out the same way an Ogris does but faster and without a risk?

Which is why Kuva Bramma is used more than other Explosives like Ogris. The Reward outside of Kuva Bramma or maybe Zarr is not high enough for the Risk.

[Lone_Dude]

DE should add an exilus mod that adds 100% damage and grants 100% self-damage. Enjoy exploding yourself because your cat or dolt of a teammate ran in front of you, leave sane people alone. Cheers.

It's incredibly hilarious to me to see that some try-hards defend self damage by using "skill" as an argument, while also stating that to avoid death you just have to jump. Not everyone is as "hardcore" as you are, Johnny, not everyone wants to jump every time they shoot just to prove to themselves that they have a "skill" in a non-competitive PvE game lmao. Reminds me of that Ninja guy with his tough talk on "Its just a game" argument, meanwhile all he does is play Fortnite. What a #*!%ing meme.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Lone_Dude

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Two in the same update. The shield gate thing is basically the same as a Mesmer Skin charge. 

But yeah, all the self-damage fights have been done over and over again, no one has anything new to say about it, I will not miss it.

Also, the decrease in enemy armor means frame damage abilities scale even further, so Revenant has to wait even long for Reave to be the only option left for killing enemies.

[Miyabi-sama]

One step closer to boring casuality.

Soon there will be only one challenge - to find a living enemy.

[SneakyErvin]

9 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Two in the same update. The shield gate thing is basically the same as a Mesmer Skin charge. 

But yeah, all the self-damage fights have been done over and over again, no one has anything new to say about it, I will not miss it.

Actually the shield gate will only make me play Rev even more, since I'll be able to be even extra lazy with refreshes of MS.

Nezha and Rev will likely be my go-to frames for anything endless after shield gate comes around.

As Manowar would put it "In our eyes you're immortal, in our eyes you'll live forever".

[CopperBezel]

Nezha's already my choice for anything that requires taking much damage. I depend on taking health damage for Hunter Adrenaline, though, so the main change to shields I'm looking forward to there is the fact that I don't have to take damage quite so often to keep them broken.

1 hour ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Soon there will be only one challenge - to find a living enemy.

Have you played ESO with a good Saryn?

[Miyabi-sama]

4 минуты назад, CopperBezel сказал:

Have you played ESO with a good Saryn?

The question implying I lack experience so much that I spew blatant false.

I advocated against proposals to nerf Saryn from people who stated they have zero gameplay and nothing to shoot with Saryn in their team. Posted screenshots to prove my point.

Thing is you all have been blessed with extreme levels of mobility in this game. Move your arse.

Wanna snatch some kills? Move faster than that Inaros with his Plasmor, faster than Saryn's DoT.

Wanna be safe from self damage? Move your butt away from the point of impact. Teammates hopping in your crosshairs? Move upwards and play hippity-hoppity, 99% of warframe playerbase must have never heard about 'map verticality', hard to blame casuals. Saw that comment from a guy saying "Do I have to BJ every time I need to shoot bomb?"? Oh my, what a drama, hope your spacebar survives one additional tap.

People complaining about Gauss killing himself with Acceltra when running. Have they ever considered running... different direction? Nah, blasphemy. Let's just rant about bad game design.

You might outright disagree with me because your opinion is different. You might play in a very different way. Hence I always say It all boils down to your playstyle. You might agree to disagree, which still doesn't stop people like that toddler several comments earlier saying "reeeeeeee i want mah ogris penta shooty point blank". Well, here you are, Tonkor 1.0 is back again.

This is so obvious fault in the game direction that I'm staggered I have to explain it here. And I'm certain in the fact I just wasted a bunch of my time proving obvious stuff that won't change anything.

[CopperBezel]

2 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Thing is you all have been blessed with extreme levels of mobility in this game. Move your arse.

Wanna snatch some kills? Move faster than that Inaros with his Plasmor, faster than Saryn's DoT.

I do, in the sense that I can stay ahead of a slim majority of the Saryns I run into with my Khora. There are nonetheless people who know how to play Saryn, and those people can obliterate ESO, because it happens to be a game mode that's very well tuned to her already very good ability kit. 

5 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

This is so obvious fault in the game direction that I'm staggered I have to explain it here. And I'm certain in the fact I just wasted a bunch of my time proving obvious stuff that won't change anything.

That's a very typical attitude and one you share with quite a lot of people who disagree with you. They're all staggered, too, and all equally certain of their "proof". But this is a self-damage topic. You don't have to explain anything. It's all been explained endlessly. The other guys have tried to explain it to you, too.

[Miyabi-sama]

15 минут назад, CopperBezel сказал:

That's a very typical attitude and one you share with quite a lot of people who disagree with you. They're all staggered, too, and all equally certain of their "proof". But this is a self-damage topic. You don't have to explain anything. It's all been explained endlessly. The other guys have tried to explain it to you, too.

Does it matter what attitude I have? If it does then let me get it straight: yes, scrubs, toddlers, noobs, weekend warriors, avocados are ruining my cool perfect game with their dream of "powah fantazee".

But regardless of my approach on this matter, you are right. This issue been brought to attention a million times. Yet each time there were tips about how to remedy the issue. Answers like: "the problem is solved without removing the source, it is not a cancer case, just be careful where, when and what you shoot with". Simply put: if you like to play with a jump rope and sometimes slap your nape with rope or it gets tangled in your feet, how do you manage that? I doubt you will cut the rope in two and continue jumping, beats the point of using the thing anymore.

For me playing bomb guns in warframe was similar to playing with jump rope. It was a part of fun to lose in this game. People calling it masochism are just mental.

[TheLexiConArtist]

@Miyabi-sama we may agree to disagree on Saryn's current oppressiveness level but when it comes to self-damage, you're right.

 

I'm going to throw more numbers out here. Forgive me if I missed something while scanning the list but it's illustrative of the point regardless.

Net gain for removing self damage:
  8 / 242 (~3.3%) completely dumb-firing explosives become no challenge to use.
12 / 242 (~4.9%) triggered / delayed / distance-arming explosives become even more trivial. _{(I think it's 12? Counting things like the Zhuge Prime and from what I vaguely recall, the Corinth alt fire having arm-distance self-damage.)}

Less than 10% of the primary+secondary weapons in the game get any sort of benefit. Less than 4% were 'unforgiving' to begin with.

Net gain for keeping self damage:
8 / 8 (100%) of high-risk weapons keep their high-risk playstyle for players who wish to engage with it.
12 / 12 (100%) of mid-risk, more forgiving weapons keep their middle-ground playstyle for players who like a little spice with a safety net.
222/242 (91.7%) of weapons without associated personal risk stay available for players who DO NOT like putting themselves at risk.

 

Why should greed for <10% of the available weapons remove 100% of the risky player's gameplay?

[CopperBezel]

1 hour ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Does it matter what attitude I have?

Well, only when it's reflective of the source of the reasoning too. Like I'm saying, you can insult people all you like, but they've "proved" you wrong just as much as you've "proved" yourself right. There's nothing behind it, and as far as DE's concerned, you lost the argument. 

[Miyabi-sama]

40 минут назад, TheLexiConArtist сказал:

Why should greed for <10% of the available weapons remove 100% of the risky player's gameplay?

 

36 минут назад, CopperBezel сказал:

There's nothing behind it, and as far as DE's concerned, you lost the argument.

Yep. Here we are. DE chose to shut up those who are disturbed with simpliest move.

Can't do much about that.

[Argentum_Oculi]

I might have limited knowledge compared to others, when it comes to the game and game-design, as I've only been around for the past 390+ days in Warframe.

I agree with, the original poster - and here's my views in full:

(*1) = Mechanical notes and personal experience. (further down)

However, unlike what might be considered an unpopular opinion... I will admit that, consequences is needed - if we all went on full auto-pilot every single time we went into a mission, then what?

- Is it okay for all of you, to let loose without a thought in the world ...or your surroundings? ... is it alright to simply, ignore physics in a video game, logic on a scale slightly bigger than a Cetus wisp?! ... I'm sorry, but that would simply ruin play-styles and immersion(bleed).

- So I take it that it is okay to send a full bombardment down a hallway... killing everything that hauled itself up there? But thinking a bit before letting the armed oversized metal-rod with explosives strapped onto it... that has probably shrapnel like loads within... that blows up when it detonates/collides with target or surface - to harm the person back, because of the distance of the blast!? Is suddenly one of the big red flags for people?! If anything this blows my mind. 

All we needed was the Kuva Bramma... to kill off a mechanic that should remain in the game to teach us all - new and veteran alike that there is a reason and logic behind it all. Big Boom, equals big damage, that was crystal clear... but to those of you who wanted to maximize the bow but keep the aggro heavy playstyle... didn't think for a second that higher damage, might lead to heavier impacts ... included on the return, if the projectile either split up ... got reflected or otherwise caused splash-damage? In conclusion, it wouldn't require much field testing to see that, it caused bigger cluster-rain (with the Kuva Bramma in mind), that ultimately spread out... and blew up, thus... creating death-zones for both enemy and warframe who wielded said bow!  (though even so, the lich who held it prior, got past every shot unscathed, which by the way didn't bother me one bit.) - Yet for some of you out there, it seemed not to have occurred that, it requires some more strategy... checking your environment... changing weapons depending on situations... and perhaps, just maybe... not giving something with that high of potential to rain down, more multishot! Ogris, Kuva Ogris, Angstrum, Lenz, Castanas, Sancti-Castanas, Most if not all Glaives, any bow with mods that carries explosive damage chance, kunai with it's own augments... Komorex, Acceltra, Zarr, Kuva Ayanga, Grattler even! (in close proximity, with it as your heavy weapon), Akarius, Zhuge Prime, Phantasma, Javlok?... right, right... did I forget anything that came prior to Kuva Bramma then? ... My point is - It makes perfect sense, why it is this way and why it should harm the user - most of these have explosive components!

• - Cautious shot, is a mod for bows, as far as I understood - for other weapons ... drop fulmination, drop any sort of spread, or additional multishot (I will repeat this until it sinks in... if its understood is one thing... but it'll only be alright once it has been accepted as a fact, despite being liked or not.). There's a reason we got mods such as Adaptation, Rolling Guard, Shield-regeneration type mods, invulnerability type ability augment mods, damage mitigation. And more.
• If I died because of impatience, that is on me - If I died because of a newly spawned enemy unit (nullifiers in fissures for example, air drops from ships with units on corpus tiles ... or the plains with Grineer.), that is still acceptable. If my death was caused by a rescue target/defense target... so be it... frustrating, you bet, but not unfair or soul crushing.
• When it comes to fellow players, then try to co-ordinate - and do not for a second, dare to tell me... that you don't know of collision, or that your fellow player shouldn't have collision at all.. when you fire rocket after rocket into them! ... I'm sorry, but that would be a paperthin argument... one that simply won't cut it. If an explosive can wound you, then it will... As well as going as far as being able to kill you.

(*1) COME ON, THINK FOR A SECOND PEOPLE!!! It really baffles me that so many players, decides to not strategize ... without needing to alter 1 entire weapon, or one whole mechanic - would it hurt everyone so badly, to actually think this through past the argument of whats personally comfortable... over what is reasonably understandable and logical? Please, realize that, I'm speaking of the mechanic ... not the Chroma-Vex armor set-up... not any mod effects such as Rage or Hunter Adrenaline that makes it beneficial (mainly as the latter, seems to work most reliably with input from enemies rather than Glaives, explosive fire-arms and bows.) or any Arcanes. As a player who often plays Vauban and Oberon, sometimes Nyx, Khora, Volt... frames that doesn't benefit from self-damage or direct damage unless you count Nyx's Absorb... - I've learned that there's limits.

- I'm not the 8k hp Inaros with maxed out adaptation and augments to boot... with Arcanes that would make it impossible to make a scratch in me. - this is for the sake of any interjections about perspective - in regards of frame of choice. Be it Inaros(4th ability + modding... including his resurrection mechanic), Nidus(Mutation Stacks "Undying"), Wukong(Passive/Defy/Cloudwalker), Valkyr (Hysteria), Revenant (Mesmerskin)... all of these will help you, heck, we could even go as far as mention augments here and there - or hp-locks with operators' Vazarin healing dash at 3 pips or above. - THINK, please. - oh and limbos rift might help too I suppose, right?.

I'm done listing up, this is simply what I think of the whole situation as a whole. ... not for the changes we would alter it with, but work with what we currently have.

... Ultimately, this is not going to be a welcoming change - I for one want Consequences for my actions, be it from my projectiles or be it from the environment I'm in!    

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Argentum_Oculi

[CopperBezel]

39 minutes ago, Argentum_Oculi said:

However, unlike what might be considered an unpopular opinion... I will admit that, consequences is needed - if we all went on full auto-pilot every single time we went into a mission, then what?

- Is it okay for all of you, to let loose without a thought in the world ...or your surroundings? ... is it alright to simply, ignore physics in a video game, logic on a scale slightly bigger than a Cetus wisp?! ... I'm sorry, but that would simply ruin play-styles and immersion(bleed).

There's nothing wrong with a game where every explosion hurts everyone. It's just a different kind of game. When other explosive weapons and all explosive abilities damage only enemies, you have to ask why the ones that damage the player who uses them (but not others, of course) are special. And that's really its own kind of immersion break. You can't create the sense of the world working realistically with something that's ultimately completely optional. 

The other side to that is the "who's it hurting?" argument others have repeated, that when it's just a few weapons with a fun mechanic that kills you, players might as well be able to choose that. I don't find that very compelling, but I think it's a more realistic case for what the game was actually offering, or rather, is until the update. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

52 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

There's nothing wrong with a game where every explosion hurts everyone. It's just a different kind of game. When other explosive weapons and all explosive abilities damage only enemies, you have to ask why the ones that damage the player who uses them (but not others, of course) are special. And that's really its own kind of immersion break. You can't create the sense of the world working realistically with something that's ultimately completely optional. 

It's not actually inconsistent. You're making an over-generous grouping if you think it is.

Radial AOE damage != explosives. Blast damage-type != explosives.

An EMP shockwave, a concussive shockwave, an explosion.. all different sorts of effects with potentially different consequences.

When you look at things that are thematically conventional chemically-reactive explosions:

• Rocket weapons (Ogris, Angstrum, etc)
• Grenade weapons (Tonkor*, Penta, etc)
• Small attached explosive payloads (Talons, Zhuge Prime, Concealed Explosives mod, Thunderbolt mod)

You see that, big and small, these all had self-damage. With the obvious exception at the time of release - the Tonkor. Which was a big mistake, as we all discovered.

Now you look at what's definitely not a conventional explosive:

• Quanta cubes, despite dealing blast damage, are some.. sort of energy shockwave?
• Simulor, with a special mention because mechanically it would hit the player too often to permit self-damaging anyway
• Sonicor (concussive), Staticor (some sort of energy-wave pulse)
• Warframe 'void magic' abilities of various kinds

You find many things doing no self damage.

There are middle-ground cases like the Castanas, which can be explained as more of an indiscriminate tesla-zapping, and the Lenz dealing self-damage with its ill-explained payload.

But the standard style of explosive is absolutely consistent.

 

[CopperBezel]

I think for what @Argentum_Oculi is describing to be applicable, explosions that affect enemies in the same way would need to affect players in the same way, too. And I'm aware that the Staticor charge shot had self-damage for a day once, and it's the only really obvious outlier where the only distinction is that the projectile is not a physical explosive device of some kind. 

I don't know, I would think that for fans of the self-damage, I'd think you'd want it to be implemented a lot more broadly and in a way that was mechanically rather than just cosmetically consistent. I feel like where self-damage is as of now before the update, it's in a pretty awkward middle position that would naturally want to resolve in one direction or the other.

[TheLexiConArtist]

9 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

I think for what @Argentum_Oculi is describing to be applicable, explosions that affect enemies in the same way would need to affect players in the same way, too. And I'm aware that the Staticor charge shot had self-damage for a day once, and it's the only really obvious outlier where the only distinction is that the projectile is not a physical explosive device of some kind. 

I don't know, I would think that for fans of the self-damage, I'd think you'd want it to be implemented a lot more broadly and in a way that was mechanically rather than just cosmetically consistent. I feel like where self-damage is as of now before the update, it's in a pretty awkward middle position that would naturally want to resolve in one direction or the other.

It's a blurry line, but applying it more broadly would need a lot of those circumstantial judgement calls such as Simulor and Cyanex where the gameplay rule has to take precedence over consistency. Predictable, avoidable self-damage is okay, randomly murdering yourself with things moving arbitrarily or naturally happening at risky borderline proximity is not. It's like those Operator scaffolds that can damage the Operator themselves - you just get hit all the time unless you max the explosion distance and backpedal constantly. (Put elemental arcanes on one of those amps and you'll see the difference - I'm fairly sure kiddos have heavy resistance to Void damage.)

I'm not against the alternatives existing. In fact, the alternatives existing, provided that balance is maintained in some other way, only makes the argument against wholesale self-damage removal stronger.

I don't want people to 'git gud' with self-damaging explosives. That's not the same thing as saying that it is possible to 'git gud' if you choose to travel that path. If a player doesn't like the process of getting good at not blowing themselves up, that is fine too, we welcome you to just use things you like instead. 
None of us - not players who want to keep self-damage, not DE with the game itself - are telling you that you have to engage in personal-risk weapons. There's no 'rockets only' Sortie modifier.

[Silescere]

Don't like all these changes either. Be it the upcoming self-damage or the already cancelled "Lich snapping me in two". For the first you'd need some caution,  modding and maybe a different frame (the game is all about "having the right weapons -frame included- for the right job". Not "everybody can do everything either way") and for the latter you needed to offer 1 out of your 5 revives. Big deal.

Edit: And the self damage actually was only that. No squad likes to be blown up, so I think the current implementation is fine.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Silescere

[Phernok]

Please read my entire message in order to understand my point of view since it can be misunderstood separately.

I personally hate self-inflicted damage, but the change they plan to make doesn't seem the most correct and seems negative for the game. Then I explain my point of view of the subject.

1. Why do I hate the current self-inflicted damage? I don't like it because it seems too high in comparison to the self-inflicted damage by these weapons. This self-inflicted damage is not balanced at all. (I do not understand why my Inaros with 9k of life does not hold a single shot).

2. Why don't I want it to disappear? It is a game mechanic, which has many other games and it seems good that there are weapons with risk. In addition, it is also a mechanism applicable to current warframes such as chroma or mirage, as well as to some future warframe.

3. How would I like the self-inflicted damage to be? The self-inflicted damage should be less, but enough that you have to play carefully. (Also in the risk factor we have to count on the weapon can put us Status Effect.)

4. There are currently mods in the game as a Cautious Shot that allows you to shoot yourself without causing any damage. But he has a big problem and he can't put himself in all arms. In addition to the problem of self-inflicted damage by melee weapons and Exodia Contagion. One idea I have is to put a Cautious Shot Warframe Exilus Mod, which reduces the damage of all weapons with self-inflicted damage equipped in exchange for not receiving any damage with it.

In any case, we will have to wait, perhaps Digital Extremes surprises us and adds the mechanics of self-inflicted damage by mods. Although I personally believe that it would be better to leave the self-inflicted damage and the players have a variety of tools to avoid it with their disadvantages.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

The fabled excuse of "high risk, high rewards" just didn't make to me. There's certainly a lot of risk, but the rewards stay consistently the same regardless of whatever weapon you've used. Self damage in Warframe never quite found that much utility outside of specific builds for Warframes like Trinity, and even that was nerfed to the ground. You couldn't exactly use the Ogris for rocket jumps or any other mobility technique, but your corpse sure got yeeted halfway across the room if you weren't out of the detonation radius. Enemies weren't even affected by their own AOE weapons, leaving players at a distinct disadvantage. A change like this is suitable for Warframe, it'll help resurrect appreciation for weapons otherwise deemed too dangerous to bring to every occasion. While there is a risk of stunning yourself & leaving yourself open enough to be picked off by enemies at a higher level, at least you don't have to worry about the Kuva Bramma doing a better job at killing you than Stalker, even with a bow-specific Cautious Shot or not.

[CopperBezel]

22 minutes ago, Phernok said:

3. How would I like the self-inflicted damage to be? The self-inflicted damage should be less, but enough that you have to play carefully. (Also in the risk factor we have to count on the weapon can put us Status Effect.)

Well, to make actual self-damage work as opposed to self-instant-kill, you'd need to either do, or avoid, some funky math. Right now, player and enemy health are on completely different scales. You can see that by comparing the health values of enemies at a given level from the wiki with player health, by radiation proccing some enemies and waiting a week for them to deal any visible damage to each other, or by inviting a friend to the Simulacrum and covertly turning on friendly fire at the simulation terminal. This is because mods affect particular values on the player side in different ways in progression than leveling affects the scaling of enemy damage and effective health. The only thing that matters for balance and challenge at any point in the progression is that player damage talks the same language as enemy durability at the same stage that player durability talks the same language as enemy damage.

Since players and enemies start with very similar numbers that diverge as they respectively progress, there's also no simple multiplier or formula to translate between player durability and damage dealing.

So there's no percentage of a weapon's damage that's going to more often than not translate to "injure but don't kill". And it can't be just a percentage of the player's health, either, because we want an Inaros to be able to shoot himself in the face and shrug it off more easily than an Ember, and Excalibur somewhere in between the two. What you might do is just give the weapon a raw damage number in a neutral damage type - health numbers don't change very drastically as we advance, most frames only tripling or so from where they started unmodded, we just gain resistances and regeneration in various forms. I suppose one possibility is to deal True damage, but I think I'd want to at least insert some kind of scaling based on the frame's base, unmodded armor. If DR and built armor abilities resist a flat-value self-damage, then it'll start lethal and end trivial and we still don't have a persistent influence on gameplay.

A status effect would be much simpler, so long as it circumvented any resistance or immunity on the frame. I've been a fan of knockdown, since it would expose players to enemy damage and is therefore a penalty that's inherently on-level and also neatly makes intuitive sense for an explosive weapon. What we're getting is a little bit like that, but I don't think it looks like it'll make us vulnerable enough to make a real difference.

[Phernok]

Sorry, my way of explaining myself was not correct, the solution to this problem is much easier, the self-inflicted damage should not be the damage of the reduced weapon but an independent damage created specifically for this purpose that increases as the damage of the weapon increase but without having a direct relationship with it. In this way this would be controlled damage. (Also that the state effects are applied to the player, except those that are not currently accepted as is radiation).

Maybe it's something difficult to do, I just hope that in the end we have the best for everyone without eliminating game mechanics

Edited March 1, 2020 by Phernok