DO NOT remove self damage. It is a legitimate drawback and a niche some players welcome.

[Rankii]

This is exactly what I was thinking. It's stupid that because a bunch of bad players blew themselves up with the bramma, that the risk/reward of explosive weapons has to die. There's already a band-aid for players that can't aim anyways called Cautious Shot. Just make it affect the new bow and let me keep my strong explosive weapon that could potentially blow me  up.

And now, with a lot of area damage with no drawbacks, every explosive weapon is going to get nerfed to hell because a few S#&$ty players couldn't take a second to aim the rocket at somewhere other than their feet. Thanks, you insufferable twats.

[Sylonus]

I'm extremely happy that self-damage is gone.
Chroma doesn't even have to be a loser for it, could leave self damage on Concealed Explosives and Thunderbolt alone, the damage from those mods never scale to an unhealthy point, so I see no reason not to leave them in for Chroma to have a self damage tool.

That said, if they're insistent on removing all or none, I give that up gleefully to be able to use explosive weapons without killing myself. (Or being relegated to playing Revenant or Nyx only for them.)

Self damage just feels woefully out of place with the pace and styling of this game. And the risk was not remotely worth the reward. (except perhaps in the case of the Bramma, which I do likely expect to get nerfed, sadly, after this change.) But for all the other weapons, I'm very, very happy for the changes.

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Well, to make actual self-damage work as opposed to self-instant-kill, you'd need to either do, or avoid, some funky math. Right now, player and enemy health are on completely different scales.

Since players and enemies start with very similar numbers that diverge as they respectively progress, there's also no simple multiplier or formula to translate between player durability and damage dealing.

So there's no percentage of a weapon's damage that's going to more often than not translate to "injure but don't kill". And it can't be just a percentage of the player's health, either, because we want an Inaros to be able to shoot himself in the face and shrug it off more easily than an Ember, and Excalibur somewhere in between the two.

Actually, there are simple formulae that do the job. See the examples I gave using my own with differing control-number variables? You're right that no flat percentage works, and Cautious only pushes a decimal point over a couple places, but with something that's not entirely unlike a derivative from the classic sort of 'diminishing return' formula you see on Armour effectiveness, you can effectively and flexibly create a progression from High proportion, Survivable damage while learning a weapon up to Low proportion, (eventually) still fatal damage for a fully modded and presumably player-mastered weapon.

16 minutes ago, Sylonus said:

I'm extremely happy that self-damage is gone.
Chroma doesn't even have to be a loser for it, could leave self damage on Concealed Explosives and Thunderbolt alone, the damage from those mods never scale to an unhealthy point, so I see no reason not to leave them in for Chroma to have a self damage tool.

That said, if they're insistent on removing all or none, I give that up gleefully to be able to use explosive weapons without killing myself. (Or being relegated to playing Revenant or Nyx only for them.)

Self damage just feels woefully out of place with the pace and styling of this game. And the risk was not remotely worth the reward. (except perhaps in the case of the Bramma, which I do likely expect to get nerfed, sadly, after this change.) But for all the other weapons, I'm very, very happy for the changes.

See the post containing 'net gain' counts? Less than 10% of weapons benefit from axing self-damage for the sake of people who don't care to use them (and that's fine, you can get good, but nobody's saying you have to). Less than half of that for outright 'unforgiving', dumbfire explosives. That's not a significant proportion of the weapon pile to warrant, 1) putting the game at risk of imbalance i.e. old Tonkor/Mirage-Simulor meta, and 2) removing the real risk playstyle niche from those of us who don't mind it as is or actively enjoy it in a way that mere mildly annoying staggers would not provide.

[Shy0]

one shot self kills should not be a thing. the self stagger/knockdown that they are adding should be enough to discourage people from releasing explosives in their own face in serious gameplay due to the vulnerability to enemy fire. i've loved explosive weapons from the start (always liked the penta and angstrum and seeing things go flying into space) but 90% of the times i kill myself, it is because of dodgy hitboxes or something jumping in front of me i.e. a teammate or stupid pet.

if you want to retain some existing drawback(s), either keep status procs or make self damage only a percentage of your frame's hp/shields. i use castanas to trigger eclipse on my night time mirage for eidolons, so keeping status procs would mean i don't have to retire a build (and radiation procs are still a risk to the team). taking a portion of hp/shields off per self damage hit is fine with me; you can still eventually kill yourself if you're careless but what i don't like is instantly dying because some dumb dog jumps in your face in the middle of combat.

[TheLexiConArtist]

9 minutes ago, Shy0 said:

one shot self kills should not be a thing. the self stagger/knockdown that they are adding should be enough to discourage people from releasing explosives in their own face in serious gameplay due to the vulnerability to enemy fire. i've loved explosive weapons from the start (always liked the penta and angstrum and seeing things go flying into space) but 90% of the times i kill myself, it is because of dodgy hitboxes or something jumping in front of me i.e. a teammate or stupid pet.

if you want to retain some existing drawback(s), either keep status procs or make self damage only a percentage of your frame's hp/shields. i use castanas to trigger eclipse on my night time mirage for eidolons, so keeping status procs would mean i don't have to retire a build (and radiation procs are still a risk to the team). taking a portion of hp/shields off per self damage hit is fine with me; you can still eventually kill yourself if you're careless but what i don't like is instantly dying because some dumb dog jumps in your face in the middle of combat.

I have already stated that ally collision can be considered a problem and addressed (without removing self-damage as it applies to more than just self-damage. Hate teammates eating any projectile).

'Dodgy hitboxes' are probably on you, though. You're taking a risky shot if you're in too enclosed a space for hitboxes to possibly interfere in general, or you're deliberately trying to skirt your payload just around an obstruction. That's still your own judgement call. The inert box of level geometry didn't jump out into the path, and doors.. you know can close and are proximity based. Don't shoot in a doorway you're not holding open yourself.

Percentage caps don't work because then an unmodded Loki survives as many rockets to the feet as a full tank Inaros, and that's just ridiculous. Guy in bomb suit can survive, guy in shorts and a t-shirt almost certainly dies. Pretty sensible.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Did not read. I disagree with the title. Reward is toonlow, explosive weapons are not so great in terms of damage to have a drawback. They already have low magazines.

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

Did not read. I disagree with the title. Reward is toonlow, explosive weapons are not so great in terms of damage to have a drawback. They already have low magazines.

If you actually read you'd see a whole host of details.

Like addressing the scaling problem.
Like addressing allied collision problems.
Like observing how improving reward has been generally disinclined due to backlash complaints of people who don't actually care to engage the playstyle at all (see Cautious Shot, 'lol gg I still kill myself')

[InvaderZee]

I'm just glad i'll be able to use my stug 🙂(doesn't kill enemies, kills you in a single shot)

[(NSW)StoneGhost]

4 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Actually, there are simple formulae that do the job. See the examples I gave using my own with differing control-number variables? You're right that no flat percentage works, and Cautious only pushes a decimal point over a couple places, but with something that's not entirely unlike a derivative from the classic sort of 'diminishing return' formula you see on Armour effectiveness, you can effectively and flexibly create a progression from High proportion, Survivable damage while learning a weapon up to Low proportion, (eventually) still fatal damage for a fully modded and presumably player-mastered weapon.

See the post containing 'net gain' counts? Less than 10% of weapons benefit from axing self-damage for the sake of people who don't care to use them (and that's fine, you can get good, but nobody's saying you have to). Less than half of that for outright 'unforgiving', dumbfire explosives. That's not a significant proportion of the weapon pile to warrant, 1) putting the game at risk of imbalance i.e. old Tonkor/Mirage-Simulor meta, and 2) removing the real risk playstyle niche from those of us who don't mind it as is or actively enjoy it in a way that mere mildly annoying staggers would not provide.

Classify me as one of the "masochists" I guess, since I actually enjoyed having to think when using a weapon. I was excited to get Bramma but probably wont before they get rid of self damage. Not really as excited anymore. 

I believe lots of people who are demanding this change are entitled. I can sympathize with people saying it isnt done properly, or isnt a good fit for hallways, or is inconsistent, BUT:

1) dying doesnt mean S#&$ in this game, why are you all so mad that you died?

2) it's already hard as hell to die as it is, that was the biggest risk in the game and I liked it (it made sense to me too since I'm ostensibly this world-beater super warrior)

3) there are already plenty of alternative weapons and a plethora frames/strategies that could overcome self-damage. Nyx, Revenant, Wukong, and Limbo's abilities all spring to mind as viable workarounds. This was an enjoyable strategic nuance and it felt like I was finding ways to harness a power that resisted simplicity. DE could've just developed a mod for it to add yet another workaround to the list of options if just HAD to use THESE weapons on your favorite frame

4) This relegates certain frames that could make great use of these niche weapons to obselecense for no justifiable reason.

5) It white washes the experience.  you could always elect to use your brain-numbing ignis in those tight corridors where Bramma kept killing you and saved Bramma for the PoE/Vallis. Why does everything have to be perfect for everywhere and scenario?

Hopefully they at least leave mods that ADD self damage unmolested, but I'm not feeling hopeful

Edited March 1, 2020 by (NSW)StoneGhost
Reformat for readability

[CaptainCandle]

+1, difficulty other than the scaling levels of the enemy are meaningful features of the game that contribute to the overall feel. I don't think self damage weapons in general meet the pay-off for it, but as a mechanic, I think it contributes quite a lot to the feel of the game.

[CaptainCandle]

40 minutes ago, (NSW)StoneGhost said:

Classify me as one of the "masochists" I guess, since I actually enjoyed having to think when using a weapon. I was excited to get Bramma but probably wont before they get rid of self damage. Not really as excited anymore. 

I believe lots of people who are demanding this change are entitled. I can sympathize with people saying it isnt done properly, or isnt a good fit for hallways, or is inconsistent, BUT:

1) dying doesnt mean S#&$ in this game, why are you all so mad that you died?

2) it's already hard as hell to die as it is, that was the biggest risk in the game and I liked it (it made sense to me too since I'm ostensibly this world-beater super warrior)

3) there are already plenty of alternatives and workarounds (Nyx, Revenant, Wukong's Twin, and Limbo spring to mind and it was an enjoyable strategic nuance, it felt like I discovered a way to harness a power that resisted a simplicity), DE could've just developed a mod for it to add yet another workaround to the menu

4) This relegates certain frames that could make great use of these niche weapons to obselecense for no justifiable reason. Hopefully they at least leave mods that ADD self damage unmolested, but I'm not feeling hopeful

5) If you insisted on using a frame that couldnt offset the self damage, you could still use your brain-numbing ignis in those tight corridors where Bramma kept killing you and saved Bramma for the PoE/Vallis. Why does everything have to be perfect for everywhere and scenario? It white washes the experience. 

 

I think the issues stems from the interaction of the weapon damage against scaling enemies, and the non-scaling health the player has. A level 100 bombard is going to walk through tonkor rounds, even with crits, but a kitted tonkor would kill a player 5 times over if they got hit. Add to this most weapons in this category seem to suffer from the problem of high risk-medium/low reward after putting in the effort of formas, etc. I can see why players interpret the idea as the mechanic itself is the problem, not other mechanics within the game and how the interact with the player experience.

Edited March 1, 2020 by CaptainCandle
Spelling

[(NSW)StoneGhost]

6 minutes ago, CaptainCandle said:

I think the issues stems from the interaction of the weapon damage against scaling enemies, and the non-scaling health the player has. A level 100 bombard is going to walk through tonkor rounds, even with crits, but a kitted tonkor would kill a player 5 times over if they got hit. Add to this most weapons in this category seem to suffer from the problem of high risk-medium/low reward after putting in the effort of formas, etc. I can see why players interpret the idea as the mechanic itself is the problem, not other mechanics within the game and how the interact with the player experience.

Well put. I agree. Eliminating self-damage treats the symptom, not the cause. The cause is that there are massive imbalances between players and enemies; enemies have way more health than players, but a player's weapons deal way more damage than the enemies'. This imbalance causes lots of issues (for example, enemies tickle each other when dominated/irradiated), while self-damage became the lightning rod. 

Edited March 1, 2020 by (NSW)StoneGhost

[Sharkgoblin]

19 minutes ago, CaptainCandle said:

+1, difficulty other than the scaling levels of the enemy are meaningful features of the game that contribute to the overall feel. I don't think self damage weapons in general meet the pay-off for it, but as a mechanic, I think it contributes quite a lot to the feel of the game.

your average warframe player is a player that complain about x being to hard and instead of getting good, starts to complain and making lists of reasons of why x should get nerfed

for example scaling health on excavators is because people refuse to play defensive frames

everyone play stuff like wukong or nukers but instead of realizing "mh this mission requires a defensive frame i could play frost or vauban or limbo or khora, maybe equinox with that slow augment in night form"

every excavation mission i play im the only person with a cc frame, and even then the other players manages to activate a random excavator far away from me and 2 seconds later the excavator is gone

 i hope the stagger lasts like 5-10 seconds and cannot be reduced by any mean

if i was de i would make blast damage a better damage type, nullify self damage if a pet or a teamate near you get hit (also the damage get nullified as well) and thats it

Edited March 1, 2020 by Sharkgoblin

[BloodyEy3]

Am 28.2.2020 um 23:33 schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

We need to apply a diminishing return factor. An elastic bond between output and self-damage that stretches with modding output so that it can scale to fatal levels but doesn't do so until the output (reward) is also as significant.

I am just an armchair mathematician, but some time ago I suggested the equation thus:

D * ( 1 - ( X / ( D ^ ( Y / D ) ) )

Where D = DAMAGE; X = DIMINISHING FACTOR; Y = DIMINISH THRESHOLD.

Tweaking X and Y in that formula can squash and stretch the damage progression drastically.

i think its a good formula, if they still go for the removal of self dmg, id like to see sth along the lines of self dmg through status.

So that while u may not get killed by the initial proc, it can proc the status effect (and apply it with the knock back animation they showed). That way people would still need play around factor x (being the chance that they selfinflect a status proc), since the dmg status procs are all dots it should still give you enough time to "react". This also keeps selfdmg for warframes intacts (it will be more difficult but atleast its an option). I think with that change they could also take a look back on how "dmg redirecting/absorbing" abilites work. so that the self infelcted status proc is redirected/absorbed (i think the only warframes having "redirection" abiliites are tirnity and revenant, and the dmg absorb being rhino,nezha)

example:

• chroma: uses bramma to proc heat on himself --> heat proc = dmg --> works for ability
• trinity, revenant (only with 4+2 active): bramma procs status --> gets redirected through link / 4 beams
• rhino, nezha,: dmg taken from self inflected status proc is "absorbed" for their armor value
• nyx (this one is new): her 4 doesnt absorb friendly fire anymore (drain per dmg absored is removed), gets a dmg amp on absorbed dmg. inflicting self dmg status proc changes half of absorbed dmg to that dmg --> smiliar to zephyr tornados, but differnt (if more then one its 25/25, ...)

this sounds like an aboslute win.

People wanting self dmg, get this "fun downside" that they can play around. Chroma mains can smile again for the first time in 3 days. Trinity players are a bit more happy now since they have a bit more dmg now, revenants "buff" will be nearly unnoticed. Nyx players are also happy (i would think atleast, same dmg for less energy drain --> nyx absord shuffle still not possible again thought)

Edited March 1, 2020 by BloodyEy3

[BloodyEy3]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Scar.brother.help.me:

Did not read. I disagree with the title. Reward is toonlow, explosive weapons are not so great in terms of damage to have a drawback. They already have low magazines.

makes aboslutly 0 sense !!  why do 90% run around with acceltra and bramma (before that cornith and lenz), before that tonkor for a long time. (other examples while not explosives are ignis and amprex)

Aoe weapons already for the most part absolutly outshine every other weapon. (which is why they are used !!). It is the same reason why melee is extremely strong and always will be super strong aslong as its innate punchthrough and range is kept.

In a game where alot of enemies swarm towards you in (semi-) closed corridors the efficienty of aoe weapons will always be above single shot. ingis and amprex atleast majorly fall down in later enemy lvl as their base dmg is not that high. Thats the opposite to aoe weapons. I am pretty sure they have next to snipers (which also have slow firetate) the 2nd highest base dmg while aswell having more often then not high crit and high status chance. --> seems like a pretty good reason to have drawbacks if you ask me.

That they went for dmg fall off is a good start, but i think the right way to go for it would be make crit dmg the dmg amp at cencter and the cc the factor of how drastic it fall of is --> 100% cc no fall off dmg. (so with high cc and cd it just has a dmg amp and barely no dmg fall off --> but cannot crit --> rip explosives abusing hunters muntion !!!!!!!)

Edited March 1, 2020 by BloodyEy3

[BloodyEy3]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Sharkgoblin:

for example scaling health on excavators is because people refuse to play defensive frames

thats probably the worst example you could have taken.

Every other defensive type mission has the target hp/shield scale from starting lvl of mission, it just made actually no sense to have it always same hp. i can agree that they should be more fragile then other targets since the mission doesnt fail on its destruction, but a bit more doesnt hurt anyone, will be outscaled by enemy lvl and their dmg growth respectivly quickly anyway

[CopperBezel]

6 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Actually, there are simple formulae that do the job. See the examples I gave using my own with differing control-number variables? You're right that no flat percentage works, and Cautious only pushes a decimal point over a couple places, but with something that's not entirely unlike a derivative from the classic sort of 'diminishing return' formula you see on Armour effectiveness, you can effectively and flexibly create a progression from High proportion, Survivable damage while learning a weapon up to Low proportion, (eventually) still fatal damage for a fully modded and presumably player-mastered weapon.

Well, that wasn't quite what we were talking about, though. I'm not assuming that scaling up to one-shot damage is the desired mechanic. It's mechanically flat if it doesn't become more risky depending on your situation, and if the endgame mechanic is for all explosive weapons to be instantly lethal for all frames in all situations, as @Phernok was saying. My own opinion playing the game has been that only the Lenz and Bramma really make sense as self-kill weapons, because their mechanics otherwise already reward careful positioning and placement and the instant kill seems consistently proportionate with a weapon that is mostly going to be a one-shot kill for trash mobs regardless of the situation, but what Phernok was proposing seemed to be a mechanically consistent penalty that's more in line with what most games refer to as self-damage and that's the possibility I was trying to look into there. 

[Scar.brother.help.me]

1 hour ago, BloodyEy3 said:

makes aboslutly 0 sense !!  why do 90% run around with acceltra and bramma (before that cornith and lenz), before that tonkor for a long time. (other examples while not explosives are ignis and amprex)

Aoe weapons already for the most part absolutly outshine every other weapon. (which is why they are used !!). It is the same reason why melee is extremely strong and always will be super strong aslong as its innate punchthrough and range is kept.

In a game where alot of enemies swarm towards you in (semi-) closed corridors the efficienty of aoe weapons will always be above single shot. ingis and amprex atleast majorly fall down in later enemy lvl as their base dmg is not that high. Thats the opposite to aoe weapons. I am pretty sure they have next to snipers (which also have slow firetate) the 2nd highest base dmg while aswell having more often then not high crit and high status chance. --> seems like a pretty good reason to have drawbacks if you ask me.

That they went for dmg fall off is a good start, but i think the right way to go for it would be make crit dmg the dmg amp at cencter and the cc the factor of how drastic it fall of is --> 100% cc no fall off dmg. (so with high cc and cd it just has a dmg amp and barely no dmg fall off --> but cannot crit --> rip explosives abusing hunters muntion !!!!!!!)

I barely see folks with self-damaging explosives. I do see a lot of Ignis/Kuva Nukors/Catchmoons/Fulmins/Amprexes/Shotguns and so on, whatever deals with crowds with no risk, and they do their job much better. Even since Cautious Shot appeared, still no tonkors, ogrises around. I do own Ogris with a pretty good riven, and still it becomes a barely OK weapon. It is good, does low to mid lvl missions. It can become good with a specific build for specific enemies. But that's it. It can't compete with Ignis and such meta aoe. Even without self-damage they will become fun but barely good. Somewhere at the level of Bows after last boost - playable, fun to yourself but no big contribution into a team work.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Scar.brother.help.me

[BloodyEy3]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb Scar.brother.help.me:

I barely see folks with self-damaging explosives.

i think they get more and more the higher content you play, especially because of huntersmunition (slash beign best status). Kinda also the reason why the fulmin, amprex,... tend to fall off after a certain point (which is heavly influenced by riven stats).

making hunter munition not equiable on those weapons types (held and lauchner) would "fix" that aswell. (maybe its time to nerf a good old iginis wraith to some degree aswell --> atleast amprex is kinda amo consumption heavy)

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

I barely see folks with self-damaging explosives. I do see a lot of Ignis/Kuva Nukors/Catchmoons/Fulmins/Amprexes/Shotguns and so on, whatever deals with crowds with no risk, and they do their job much better. Even since Cautious Shot appeared, still no tonkors, ogrises around. I do own Ogris with a pretty good riven, and still it becomes a barely OK weapon. It is good, does low to mid lvl missions. It can become good with a specific build for specific enemies. But that's it. It can't compete with Ignis and such meta aoe. Even without self-damage they will become fun but barely good. Somewhere at the level of Bows after last boost - playable, fun to yourself but no big contribution into a team work.

Not every weapon has to be usable in every situation. Thinking about those conventional bows, for instance. Do you see them all that much more often than explosives in your public matchmaking?

Visual presence is not a black and white thing either. There are other factors, other potential explanations. I might exhibit high Saryn usage but that's just because I solo ESO with her. People have their 'busywork' loadouts - see Ember before she was gutted and frankensteined over her multitude of rewaorking - and their casual enjoyment loadouts. Obviously, the chaining weapons and the Ignis take over when the task is just to push through a wave of enemies and players might not be in a 'challenge me' mood.

Then there's the ally collision quandary. I'm a primarily solo player anyway myself, so I can't judge much anecdotally, but what if others who do use risky explosives just choose to do it when they're not matchmade? Can't hit an ally if you're the only one in the squad, right? _{Moas, kavats and kubrows notwithstanding.}

Edited March 1, 2020 by TheLexiConArtist

[kwlingo]

If we keep self-damage, I would like Nuking abilities to change and have self-damage within Nuking radius. This will balance thinking twice before spamming nuking abilities. If you want to Nuke you have to lower your range build so you don't fall into your own explosive traps. This game change will make nuking a LOS/ AOE and will make players more aware of how to play nuke frames vs now spam it whenever possible.

[CopperBezel]

17 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Not every weapon has to be usable in every situation. Thinking about those conventional bows, for instance. Do you see them all that much more often than explosives in your public matchmaking?

Plus, whether you like self-kill weapons or not, there's still the question of the "reward" side of the risk-reward tangle. We got the Kuva Tonkor and Kuva Ogris at the same time. One has significantly higher crit and significantly lower odds of killing you, and the other has ... er, fashionframe potential, I guess? So self-kill as a mechanic could be perfectly fine, and people might still avoid those weapons because there's no practical benefit to offset the chance of embarrassing themselves and needing someone to take the time to revive them.

So yeah, what we see in usage may not be a fair reflection of whether or not self-kill weapons are a good concept. Again, to be clear, I'm saying that as someone who happens to think they aren't, but that doesn't mean that everyone else is avoiding it for the same reasons.

Edited March 1, 2020 by CopperBezel

[Sharkgoblin]

4 hours ago, BloodyEy3 said:

thats probably the worst example you could have taken.

its not an example its a sad reality

 

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

For me it's less about frames and self damage but more about risk/reward. 

They could always create an exilus mod that removes self damage among other mods.

[SpringRocker]

Keep self-damage.

Changing it to a stagger (with a recover button) removes any drawback or reason not to use massive explosive AOE weapons at point blank.

Edited March 1, 2020 by SpringRocker