Impact shouldn't cause AoE knockdown

[shut]

First off: I absolutely LOVE nearly everything about DE's "Review, Revise, Refresh" plans. These are major steps in improving the long-term health of the game, and I'm glad they're finally happening! There were only a few gripes that I had with DE's improvements.
This:

10 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

In addition to being able to achieve two Status Effects on a single shot, we are also adding new meaning if you get a duplicate Status Effect on an enemy. For example, AOE knockdown would occur on a second Impact Status on an enemy already inflicted with one!

was one of them.

 

~~~~~~~~~~ THE PROBLEM ~~~~~~~~~~
A lot of you might remember this from a while back, but DE once planned to change Impact procs to ragdoll enemies. Players hated this idea, since:
- it could push enemies to safety
- it would make weak points nearly impossible to repeatedly hit
- it's unavoidable on most weapons, since the majority of guns/melees have at least a bit of Impact in them

DE's current plan for Impact double-procs (shown above) is a less-extreme version of this same problem. Enemies falling over all the time means that their heads become hard to hit.
Blast procs already have this problem too, but you can at least opt out of Blast simply by not equipping it. Most weapons don't exactly have that option for Impact.

 

~~~~~~~~~ MY SUGGESTION ~~~~~~~~~
Impact double-procs now "stun" the enemy for 2 seconds. Stunned enemies stand still and have a dizzy appearance, leaving their head exposed and easy to hit. Stunned enemies will receive Stealth Bonus Damage from melee weapons, and will be open to Finishers.
(Below: Example "stunned" pose from Team Fortress 2. Dizzy stars optional.)

What this does:
- Gives players a reason to use Impact on ranged weapons, as headshots become drastically easier to land
- Gives players a reason to use Impact on melee weapons, as it now provides a damage incentive (especially for pure-Status builds, as Stealth Bonus Damage does not stack strongly with crits)
- Still provides a bit of CC if the player does not care about melee or headshots

 

That is all.

Edited February 29, 2020 by SortaRandom

[Wyrmius_Prime]

Knockdown would be such an stupid idea to implement. Having the enemies standing still doing nothing to make hitting weakspots easier would make impact damage WAY more valuable.

[--END--Rikutatis]

I mean, you'd think they'd have learned that lesson after the feedback fiasco of damage 2.0.... and yet, two years later here we are again. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Wait, are they seriously going to implement parts of damage 2.5 into the double status mechanic? Ugh. Literally none of those changes were going to be good.

[shut]

Bumping this now that it's a weekday and DE is back at work. Hopefully one of them sees this.

[AreeSoothsayer]

Upvoted and Bumping for Notice!

[Educated_Beast]

Agree!  Would make this a useful physical damage type.  Even if it does not open up to finisher or stun duration reduced to 1 sec, this is useful.  

I never equip blast for that reason, it makes me waste ammo with missed shots, and missed headshots.  It will suck if I have to intentionally keep status low to avoid impact procs!

[Tyreaus]

Don't personally mind knockdown, but stepping on the toes of Blast procs is kind of...ehhhhh...

Also the idea of dizzying enemies thematically fits. So +1.

[BR31]

I'm  only waiting for a toggle in settings : " enable your own ragdolling status effects, like impact and blast " ,
some ppl like it, but for me it's a negative and helpful for the enemy not for me or my team. 

Your suggestion is good   as well , upvoted . 

[Tsukinoki]

Fully agree with this.

Having double-impact be a knockdown will just cause a lot of problems...least of which is basically invalidating Blast even more.  After all if Impact can do what Blast is supposed to do then why would you ever mod for blast?

Really all this change would do is make impact even less desirable than it currently is for the reasons you stated, and make any "-impact" rivens better.  I mean imagine trying to take down a high level Nox and you keep knocking it over meaning that you cant hit its head.....
Meanwhile a brief stun effect?  That would go along with its slight stagger that it does now, and give it a CC niche that keeps it useful and actually makes it not terrible to have.  I would much rather enemies get stunned for a short duration so I could hammer that weakpoint.  That would actually make me reconsider a -impact riven....

[Tyreaus]

Giving this a bump as the Pt 2 mainline still proposes a ragdoll.

EDIT: I should also point out that this contravenes the enemy shield gating concept: Impact is effective against shields, and headshots / weakpoint shots are meant to bypass the shield gating. So the status that is effective against shields has a proc that makes an anti-shield tactic much more difficult. It doesn't mesh. Something like stunning them in place (and thereby exposing their heads) is much more appropriate.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Tyreaus

[Redfeather75]

what if ragdolled enemies count as weakspot no matter where you hit them. 😵

[LordPantaloonsthe3rd]

I agree, this would make weapons like the boar prime, sobek and Quartakk absolutely obnoxious to use, knockdown is a big bad. stun is a good idea though.

[Tsukinoki]

1 hour ago, Redfeather75 said:

what if ragdolled enemies count as weakspot no matter where you hit them. 😵

While that would somewhat help to mitigate the issue it doesn't solve it completely, nor do I see DE going for it.
I mean do you honestly see DE going "You know those special weakpoints we applied to Bursa and Nox?  Or how the shield rework on enemies and their shieldgating rewards hitting weakpoints?  Well if you ragdoll them you can ignore all of that!"

Further it doesn't solve the problem of "Ok the nox/healer ancient/toxic ancient/etc was just yeeted across the room....time to find him again and hope that he isn't stuck under something in such a way that prevents killing him!"
Instead of just being able to, you know, shoot and kill the enemy you're now busy chasing the bodies as they go flying around randomly with absolutely no control on your end except to just avoid using any impact based weaponry at all.

I can also see this leading to massive problems in open world bounties:
You know the bounty missions that require you to kill a specific enemy for a drop they give that continues the mission?  What if you just happened to knock said enemy under an object or down a mountain...meaning you can't continue the objective meaning you're now likely to just fail that mission!  And all because you just happened to have a weapon that procced impact twice in a row!

Or imagine how annoying this will be with thralls as you knock them around into unreachable spaces meaning you can't stab them for murmur progress!

Edited March 4, 2020 by Tsukinoki

[Lythael]

Agree this change to impact looks horrible and will make majority of precision weapons annoying to use.

[Thrymm]

Adding another voice---knockdown is a bad idea.

Blast is a relatively unpopular damage type, primarily because it does exactly this.  Moving enemies to the floor isn't beneficial in warframe, as a general rule.  Unpopular enough that many weapons that could easily be corrosive/blast are modded corrosive/heat/virtually anything but blast instead, and the primary reason is to avoid the knockdown proc effect. 

Adding the potential to do this to virtually every IPS weapon in the game is just not a good idea.

[Tsukinoki]

Looks like DE listened to us, again, about impact and it causing ragdolls:

7 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Impact

Repeat single-target Impact Status Effects will escalate the efficacy of the Impact Status (from Stagger to full Ragdoll).
EDIT: We are reviewing how Ragdoll feels and may change pending feedback. EXPECT AN UPDATE TODAY ON THIS NOTE! EDIT 2: No more Ragdoll!

I'm just hoping that the next time DE decides to look at damage types again they don't start asking "How about impact causing ragdoll?"
It should be pretty clear from the two times they brought it up and the communities reaction that its a bad idea.

It may sound good on paper...but in implementation it would be horrible.

[FireSegment]

On 2020-02-29 at 8:34 AM, SortaRandom said:

Impact double-procs now "stun" the enemy for 2 seconds. Stunned enemies stand still and have a dizzy appearance, leaving their head exposed and easy to hit. Stunned enemies will receive Stealth Bonus Damage from melee weapons, and will be open to Finishers.

can you elaborate on how that "stun" would be different from the electric prod, or the stagger animation, or how Inaros's 1st skill open up enemy for finisher (or excal blind)  we already have? i'm kinda against using the same effect on different prod in ways that make them indistinguishable (which DE's double impact knockdown also cover, as it's the same as a blast prod)

and if u version of impact prod can do the same as inaros 1st then it's too imba imo

 

[shut]

1 hour ago, Thrymm said:

Blast is a relatively unpopular damage type, primarily because it does exactly this.

It won't after the mainline. They're changing Blast to an AoE accuracy debuff.

... yeah.

 

29 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

can you elaborate on how that "stun" would be different from the electric prod, or the stagger animation, or how Inaros's 1st skill open up enemy for finisher (or excal blind)  we already have? i'm kinda against using the same effect on different prod in ways that make them indistinguishable (which DE's double impact knockdown also cover, as it's the same as a blast prod)

and if u version of impact prod can do the same as inaros 1st then it's too imba imo

Ideally, it would be very similar to Electric procs in terms of keeping enemies' heads still, but without the AoE damage on every proc. The main idea in terms of gunplay is to just get the enemy to hold its head still (as opposed to the fire-proc or "blind" animation, which has the enemy flailing wildly and covering its face with its arms).

Melee is a different story, though, since most of them can't reliably score headshots. The "+stealth damage on melee" is largely so that Impact isn't completely useless on melee weapons (as it is now). It's not as overpowered as it sounds, since most melee weapons have very high crit multipliers that dominate the stealth damage bonuses anyways, and the rest of melee weapons (i.e. pure-status builds, especially those with high Impact weighting) are in dire need of a buff in the first place.

 

My suggestion does overlap with Inaros/Excal/Baruuk's roles a bit, but that's kinda like saying that Electric procs overlap with Volt's role a bit. If Inaros/Excal/Baruuk/etc players love stealth damage but don't want their Blinding/Sleeping abilities to feel redundant, then they can simply forgo Impact builds in favour of something that actually stacks with their Blinding abilities. No harm done.

[tarfeef101]

I have no idea why you feel melee needs to have such insane power compared to other weapons, it'd be fine as is. Melee is already better than guns by a mile. They don't need to just have constant, free finishers without even having to be daggers with stinging thorn. 

But the overall sentiment of having impact not make headshots harder is good, so DE yes pls make that happen.

[.DemonGuard.]

Of the 3 physical damage types, impact is supposed to be the anti-shield one. How about making its status effect relevant to the shields and the new shield gating, instead of the stagger effect?

The idea: Impact damage can cause an interference/disturbance to the shields making them temporarily more vulnerable. So an impact status effect would increase the damage that bypass the enemy shield gating from 5% to 25% for 6 seconds. Subsequent impact status effects add +5% for a total of 70% at 10 stacks (numbers would need testing of course).
To still give an incentive to go for the weak spot, hitting that spot with 10 active stacks would increase the damage that bypass the shield gating by 70% (effectivly doing 170% to the target).

That would make impact the equivalent to what is corrosive to the grineer.

Edited March 5, 2020 by .DemonGuard.

[Shaburanigud]

I'd just have impact damage have a completely new functionality. Initial Impact proc shall reduce enemies status resistance by 1% with stagger, allowing subsequent attacks to apply status procs other than impact more easily. Caps at 15% and each followed proc adds  1.5%. Lasts for 6 seconds.

Initial puncture can go similar with its proc reducing enemies critical resistance by 1% allowing subsequent attacks to get crits moreeasily. Caps at 10% and each followed proc adds  1%. Lasts for 6 seconds.

[8faiNt]

I dont like the FORCED KNOCKDOWN on enemies. Blast was acceptable cuz It was your choice to go with knockdown.
But considering like literally EVERY WEAPON HAS IMPACT, IT'S UNACCEPTABLE. They MUST find a new gimmick to it.

[Aliothale]

The knockdown effect is god awful. It's ruined so many weapons. I don't know what they were thinking with this. Akstiletto Prime are basically useless now alongside any other impact focused automatic weapon.

Impact should stagger, then stun.

+1 for OP.

This is legit the only thing that made me mad about today's update.