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(Old) Damage 2.0 vs (Upcoming) Tenno Damage 3.0


Triplinster
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Warframe Revised: Hotfix 27.2.1 Edit 2:
I have now returned with actual calculations of Old IPS vs New IPS Damage calculations. So here's what happened.
Surprisingly, some of the things I predicted in the original post (which I will now cross out but not delete) turned out to be false. 

First of all, the Neutralization of Strengths/Weaknesses for Tenno did not carry over to PvP, nor did the 25% Shield Damage Reduction.


Instead, we got Shield Gate which was predicted but with an unexpectedly high ThroughShield/ShieldBreak Damage invulnerability time of 1 SECOND. Yes. 1 SECOND of Invulnerability after ShieldBreak.

But well, the Average HTK and Average TTK increased more than expected. (Note that my calculations take place with Stock Excalibur 145 Shield, 110 HP 110 Arm)
Old AVG HTK: 6.71 Old AVG TTK: 1.01
New ACTUAL AVG HTK: 13.5 New ACTUAL TTK: 2.08

Aside from that there have been complaints of Elemental statuses doing abnormal for conclave stuff, which I haven't focus nor will I in this post right now.

I will leave you with Old vs New ACTUAL damage comparison sheet as of "Warframe Revised: Hotfix 27.2.1":
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hZ7-CengF7EF1fLwYPg1Ia9TNAQMUBcdjNmRIoZpVDE/edit#gid=0

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As some of you may have heard, DE is planning to roll out new changes to how Tenno receive damage.

In short, DE is making all multipliers (weakness or strengths) neutral (to 0), adding shield gating and a small invulnerability timer after shield gating (Null/zero HP damage at Shield Break)

And well, assuming these changes will "unintentionally" carry over from PvE like many past updates without any corrective balance measures. It will significantly affect the HitsToKill and TimeToKill of almost all weapons. Nearly all the changes are significant increases in HitsToKill and TimeToKill.

To understand how it affects weapons in their current state, I've created a calculator (google sheets) which you can copy and use. It shows comparison of Old vs New damage system. It does not include all IPS or any elemental weapons. It's just to get an idea of the potential upcoming changes.

You can just take a look without needing to change anything to understand what's going on. The current EHP setup is for stock Excalibur and IPS conversion is also set at stock.

The "Player Invulin Time" value (0.160) is simply my guess of what I think DE might set it at. I took this by simply setting my damage block target of, blocking 3 heavy gunner bullets at shield break.

So that's (1/12.50) * 2.

You can change this value anytime, preferably when we find out what value DE is settling on.

Link to Doc (Ctrl + F to find weapons you're interested in): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eNo2nnk7VT4_VSl-7owMPrmnm6bVRwKgyeG9L4u8V6c/edit?usp=sharing

Let me know if I messed up somewhere in the calcs.

Edited by Triplinster
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The Shield gating they suggested for enemies sounds perfect in conclave. No more 1 shot cheese weapons like the daikyu and duel swords. Finally rewarding skilled players with 1 shot kills if they land a headshot.

This would ultimately help make weapon balancing a lot more easy and remove the puncture weapon meta we had before the duel sword and bramma cheese we currently have

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On 2020-02-29 at 3:46 PM, Triplinster said:

And well, assuming these changes will "unintentionally" carry over from PvE like many past updates without any corrective balance measures. It will significantly affect the HitsToKill and TimeToKill of almost all weapons. Nearly all the changes are significant increases in HitsToKill and TimeToKill.

I litterially woke up because it just suddenly hit me. As soon as Tenno armor becomes "Neutral" all the damage types become irrelevant. In my opinion it would wreck the balance of the conclave.

 

13 hours ago, (PS4)Xx-Ribbium-xX said:

No more 1 shot cheese weapons like the daikyu and duel swords. Finally rewarding skilled players with 1 shot kills if they land a headshot.

It's "Tenno shield gate" not "Enemy shield gate". The 1 shot kill thing doesn't happen period with Tennos.

If you're talking about someone doing slide spam it doesn't prevent it, basically you're still going to be hit twice. What it does is prevent (ish) slide spam from heavier non-dual sword weapons and attacks.

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2 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

In my opinion it would wreck the balance of the conclave.

Have you seen the linked old vs new comparison doc? It definitely does wreck the balance.

Average TTK vs Mobility/Movement Speed balance is one aspect of the game that needs to stay balanced

If new changes spilled without change it'll tip the scale towards Mobility/Movement speed.

Edited by Triplinster
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3 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

I litterially woke up because it just suddenly hit me. As soon as Tenno armor becomes "Neutral" all the damage types become irrelevant. In my opinion it would wreck the balance of the conclave.

 

It's "Tenno shield gate" not "Enemy shield gate". The 1 shot kill thing doesn't happen period with Tennos.

If you're talking about someone doing slide spam it doesn't prevent it, basically you're still going to be hit twice. What it does is prevent (ish) slide spam from heavier non-dual sword weapons and attacks.

Well we dont know if it will even be in conclave is why i brought up the enemy shield gating. If they are going to add it i would prefer it to work the same was as demonstrated 

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5 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

If you're talking about someone doing slide spam it doesn't prevent it, basically you're still going to be hit twice. What it does is prevent (ish) slide spam from heavier non-dual sword weapons and attacks.

There is planned to be a brief window where health is invulnerable after shields deplete. "...also triggers a brief time where your Health is protected." I would imagine, if things are to bleed over that badly (we can hope they won't, but...), the invul time is long enough to cover the dual-sword multihit. Not that it fixes the underlying issue, but it probably does make them a little less obscene.

Personally, I like the idea of things being a touch simpler in terms of damage types. I like how Latron and Lex feel, but their IPS distribution makes them irrevocably anti-health. That kinda blows. It also saves a fair bit of headache calculating damage types and the like. Conclave's a fast-paced action game, I don't want to sit there doing math for it. That's for PvE.

I also wonder if the shield-gating could be leveraged as a "newb-helper" mechanic, activating when on the ground but only on the ground. Keeps from breaking the TTK + mobility balance, I think?

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1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

There is planned to be a brief window where health is invulnerable after shields deplete. "...also triggers a brief time where your Health is protected." I would imagine, if things are to bleed over that badly (we can hope they won't, but...), the invul time is long enough to cover the dual-sword multihit. Not that it fixes the underlying issue, but it probably does make them a little less obscene.

I doubt DE will make the invulnerability time long enough. I believe the purpose for this invulnerability is to give the average player a window of time to react against high HitsToKill but high fire rate damage, like Heavy Gunner with full fire rate.

So Shield Gate will help with Low HitsToKill but very high damage shots, while invulnerability will help with High HitsToKill but also high fire rate damage. Idea is to give the player some time to react. I doubt DE will make the invulnerability time long. I suspect 0.5 seconds at max but my guess is something like 0.160 seconds.

 

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6 hours ago, Triplinster said:

Have you seen the linked old vs new comparison doc? It definitely does wreck the balance.

Average TTK vs Mobility/Movement Speed balance is one aspect of the game that needs to stay balanced

If new changes spilled without change it'll tip the scale towards Mobility/Movement speed.

Oh yes, I do believe you. It's going to be terrible.

However one more thing to consider that isn't expressed on the table is that Rad and (to an extent) high-Puncture weapons I feel are the big reasons why people don't regularly use high armor frames. As it is currently their health/armor is treated paper thin against radiation (1.75x damage w/ 1/4 of the armor calced for damage reduction), after the new mechanics becomes 1 and 1 (after shields of course).

Because High armor wont have a threat, combined with shield damage reduction and gating, that might be just as effective.

 

EDIT: either way it's going to make things MUCH slower and we haven't even taken shield regen into account yet. It's going to be a new game 😕 ... A new slow game...

Edited by SpringRocker
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10 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

However one more thing to consider that isn't expressed on the table is that Rad and (to an extent) high-Puncture weapons I feel are the big reasons why people don't regularly use high armor frames. As it is currently their health/armor is treated paper thin against radiation (1.75x damage w/ 1/4 of the armor calced for damage reduction), after the new mechanics becomes 1 and 1 (after shields of course).

Tenno use Ferrite Armor which has no weakness against Radiation. Only Toxin (25%) Puncture (50%) and Corrosive (75%). From experience people did use high EHP frames and what you describe was not much of an issue. Like there aren't many corrosive weapons. Also Impact and Puncture seem reasonably balanced against one another against current Health/Armor setups, like Puncture alone isn't really superior. And for the longest time this is what DE got right with Conclave before it started going downhill with balance.

The difference was 1 to 2 HTK between high EHP and medium/low HP which was alright. But my issue is with some lower mobility classes (mostly 1.1 mobility) not fitting in more closely like other classes. Also Mobility seems to accelerate speed as it goes up but same doesn't happen for EHP loss or gain as well. But that's whole another topic which needs discussion.

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20 minutes ago, Triplinster said:

Tenno use Ferrite Armor which has no weakness against Radiation. Only Toxin (25%) Puncture (50%) and Corrosive (75%). From experience people did use high EHP frames and what you describe was not much of an issue. Like there aren't many corrosive weapons. Also Impact and Puncture seem reasonably balanced against one another against current Health/Armor setups, like Puncture alone isn't really superior. And for the longest time this is what DE got right with Conclave before it started going downhill with balance.

The difference was 1 to 2 HTK between high EHP and medium/low HP which was alright. But my issue is with some lower mobility classes (mostly 1.1 mobility) not fitting in more closely like other classes. Also Mobility seems to accelerate speed as it goes up but same doesn't happen for EHP loss or gain as well. But that's whole another topic which needs discussion.

Hmm... It seems that I was indeed mistaken, that's actually kind of embarassing. (I really thought Tenno armor was Alloy for years)

Whelp I thought I had something to add, but I guess not. You're right about there not really being to many corrosive weapons, that and having a puncture weakness of 50% isn't nearly as steep a 75% (when it comes to armor)... Looks like I'll need to switch around and update my setups, they're built for Alloy instead of Ferrite right now... Well, actually geared back to neutral if the changes go to conclave 😞 ...

20 minutes ago, Triplinster said:

Also Mobility seems to accelerate speed as it goes up but same doesn't happen for EHP loss or gain as well. But that's whole another topic which needs discussion.

The topic of mobility is a good one to talk about, it's not really explained anywhere.

Edited by SpringRocker
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From what i have heard unfortunately, some of the "rebalanced" status effects have spilled over to conclave.

The shield gate has created a bigger skill gap for me, since if i have to basically constantly "tap heads" with sniper rifle, to negate the effect of shield gate, it is so huge unconvinience for a new player like me, that i can't really do much to counteract high mobility system. Most experienced people utilize it and still can shoot me. On another note it might provide more time to escape from previously lost situations.

A good one is nerf to spin2win tactics in there. And because of shield gate working on melee, 1hko slams will not happen i think.

All in all i think meta shift will undeniably happen, heard about Staticor acting weird, but that is not damage related.

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40 minutes ago, Neuroszima said:

"tap heads" with sniper rifle, to negate the effect of shield gate

Just to be clear on this: headshots negate the shield gate in Conclave? I know it's supposed to work that way for Corpus but...that'd explain why I get knocked down to ~90 health (from 120) immediately after losing my shield.

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On 2020-02-29 at 3:46 PM, Triplinster said:

It seems like the Shield Gate Invulin is 1 second

Oof. I also take it that it's 4 seconds before it starts charging again?

 

Well, atleast:

5 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Significantly reduced the damage of slide attacks for dual swords in the Conclave.

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3 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Just to be clear on this: headshots negate the shield gate in Conclave? I know it's supposed to work that way for Corpus but...that'd explain why I get knocked down to ~90 health (from 120) immediately after losing my shield.

yes, you bypass shieldgate by headshotting enemies. it takes away shields and bit of health, or all the health if target is squishy

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1 hour ago, Triplinster said:

Edited Original post with new findings and calculations.

Thanks for the date.

I think it's going to be a week or so before I even look at the conclave, it's just more frustrating than anything else.

... Actually I might just take a break from the game for a week anyway, I'm so tired of seeing whole squads running around blasting with a Bramma.

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