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Rework Self-Damage instead


-ViperStrike-
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Edited: I'm glad people replied to me with good points, but I'm not here trying to please specific individuals or to annoy. This is something that can ultimately impact the gameplay, it is important. It is complex, the origins of it are too, so it requires words to express.

I'm 100% against self-damage being removed from the game but I won't ask the same as hundred others did already. At first it sounds logical. There is no friendly fire on a game like this except for when radiation kicks in, but you guys are not considering how ugly it will look. Talking about difficulty. I'm not a hard game lover trying to humiliate people, but I do love when the game tries to stop me.

But It just seems like I already have all the advantages over the enemies with overpowered guns and frames and incredible dumb enemy AI that has zero self-preservation instincts. As if it wasn't enough, Abitration got easier, Kuva Fortress challenge got easier, Liches got easier, everything is now easier and now the dangers of explosive weapons as well? Oh my...

I see the enemies trying to take cover behind shields and walls when I can just press 4 and kill the entire room. That's best example of how ugly it looks regardless of the effect it is causing. I'm not just asking a mono-dimensional wish like ''please don't remove the self-damage" I'm asking DE to improve self-damage instead. Do something else with "Cautious Shot" instead of knock downs , do broader effects or more mods for weapon's Exilus slot to contain self damage, something smart for that matter instead of just plucking it off. Anything like that would please everyone.

I think I would rather have something like other games that only a couple characters or guns can have it instead of a full removal of it.

Edited by ------.Queen-of-Blades
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10 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

you could have just said you don't know why they are removing it and are afraid of change. would have saved you a bunch of words

Except that doesnt seem to be his case. His point is that every 9 out of 10 changes DE makes is to dumb down, trivialize and make an already easy game even easier. 

I like the enemy shield changes and I like the meta arcane "nerfs". Dumbing down self dmg and enemy ehp scaling...meh.

To OP: it's a lost cause. WF is possibly the most casual live service game (outside of the initial learning curve). DE will continue to cater to that. 

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4 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Except that doesnt seem to be his case. His point is that every 9 out of 10 changes DE makes is to dumb down, trivialize and make an already easy game even easier. 

Trimming needless complexity which exists solely for the sake of complexity - especially when it's the result of old design decisions which no longer apply - is not "dumbing down" the game. Just because something is "complex" doesn't make it good. It's why our guns don't jam, we don't take fall damage and we don't die or even lose health by falling out of bounds.

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I'm against the removal of self-damage too.
Self OS is a thing to avoid but completely remove it delete the "be careful" part of AoE weapons which is what balance them.

Instead of completely removing self-damage, it shoud simply affect the player differently. Something like a % of max HP depending one the weapon and distance of the explosition. If it's a percentage of max health, it could be interesting and make shield focused frame a bit more viable.
Let imagine Bramma is 90% max health per shot while weapon like Kulstar is only 20%. It would also make an interesting stat to tweak on weapon variant, imagine if a Kuva Kulstar has same stats but much bigger explosion radius and 0% self-damage to make it unique.

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il y a 5 minutes, Steel_Rook a dit :

Trimming needless complexity which exists solely for the sake of complexity - especially when it's the result of old design decisions which no longer apply - is not "dumbing down" the game. Just because something is "complex" doesn't make it good. It's why our guns don't jam, we don't take fall damage and we don't die or even lose health by falling out of bounds.

It's true, but if the said complexity add something unique that lead to gameplay choice or dilemma, and in a game like warframe where we seek for more power, any risk-and-reward kind of gameplay style is a good addition to the game.

In the case of self-damage, you are getting more mass killing capabilities at the cost of risking to kill your self if you're not careful enough. It mean you have to play at a safe distance or take the the risk, play at the closer distance and count on your parkour skill to survive. You are getting a better damage output on a risky playstyle that get no drawbacks if you're skillful enough. Risky but rewarding.
Another exemple of this ingame is the Mecha set and specifically Mecha Pulse. The set let your Kubrow mark an enemy every 15s and the Mecha Pulse give +60% for 20s per enemies in a 30m radius when you kill the marked enemy. It mean if you have at least 3 enemies around (the target is counted), and do it during the 5s after the target is market, you outperform a fully maxed Umbra Fiber, but if you fail to kill the marked target, you have no defense at all. Again, risky but rewarding.

About fall damage, we already have a huge drawback when falling without rolling or aim-gliding, which is the ~1s recovery animation which is a big loss in movement speed when you're moving around, there is a drawback for falling and you want to avoid it but in the case of the new self damage, it's not a drawback at all, just a dodge animation that can help you move in some specific situations if your jumping behind enemies and shoots so you go backward but actually in the direction you want.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb ------.Queen-of-Blades:

I'm 100% against self-damage being removed from the game but I won't ask the same as hundred others did already. At first it sounds logical. There is no friendly friendly fire on a game like this except for when radiation kicks in, (meaning self-damage can still kill you when rad is taking effect) but you guys are not considering how ugly it will look. Talking about difficulty. No I'm not a hard game lover trying to humiliate ppl that doesn't like it, but I do love what a GAME truly represents - trying to stop me.

But It just seems like I already have all the advantages over the enemies with overpowered guns and frames and incredible dumb enemy AI that has zero self-preservation instincts. As if it wasn't enough, Abitration got easier, Kuva Fortress challenge got easier, Liches got easier, everything is now easier and now the dangers of explosive weapons as well? Oh my...

I see the enemies trying to take cover behind shields and walls when I can just press 4 and kill the entire room. That's best example of how ugly it looks regardless of the effect it is causing. I'm not just asking a mono-dimensional wish like ''please don't remove the self-damage" I'm asking DE to improve self-damage instead. Do something with "Cautious Shot" instead, broader effects or more mods for weapon's Exilus slot, something smart instead of plucking it off. Anything like that would please everyone.

Let's hope that DE is going to realise their mistake, before the update is done. Otherwise there will be enough salt for the rest of the year.

Which is a win win situation for me. I like salted chips.

vor 39 Minuten schrieb lukinu_u:

Instead of completely removing self-damage, it shoud simply affect the player differently. Something like a % of max HP depending one the weapon and distance of the explosition. If it's a percentage of max health, it could be interesting and make shield focused frame a bit more viable.
Let imagine Bramma is 90% max health per shot while weapon like Kulstar is only 20%. It would also make an interesting stat to tweak on weapon variant, imagine if a Kuva Kulstar has same stats but much bigger explosion radius and 0% self-damage to make it unique.

Inaros would like to talk with you about this idea. He isn't happy that Loki get just a tenth of the damage he receives. 

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6 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

Let's hope that DE is going to realise their mistake, before the update is done. Otherwise there will be enough salt for the rest of the year.

Which is a win win situation for me. I like salted chips.

Inaros would like to talk with you about this idea. He isn't happy that Loki get just a tenth of the damage he receives. 

Inaros should be content to still have exactly 10x Loki's health after each instance of self damage though. 😉

Although personally I always thought making it a function of both total health and remaining health would have worked well.  Oh well.

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56 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

In the case of self-damage, you are getting more mass killing capabilities at the cost of risking to kill your self if you're not careful enough. It mean you have to play at a safe distance or take the the risk, play at the closer distance and count on your parkour skill to survive. You are getting a better damage output on a risky playstyle that get no drawbacks if you're skillful enough. Risky but rewarding.

Exactly this. It's basically a fun, niche playstyle, that is more mechanically engaging for those who enjoy it. 

For those who do NOT enjoy it, you could either use an immortal frame that ignores self dmg (like revenant) or choose one of the hundreds upon hundreds of other weapons available in the game. But no, gotta have it all in WF.

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5 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

Let's hope that DE is going to realise their mistake, before the update is done. Otherwise there will be enough salt for the rest of the year.

Which is a win win situation for me. I like salted chips.

Inaros would like to talk with you about this idea. He isn't happy that Loki get just a tenth of the damage he receives. 

Me too exactly my thoughts. They usually listen to the community with care, but I'm afraid anything that makes it harder has the risk of getting ditched.

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)deathwolfclaw666 said:

Lol they're removing self damage. Welp for me that means 

I'll have one less issue with frost players

But

It'll make Chroma less usefull for me and I'll the lose the risk/reward explosive weapons have of which I tend to avoid games without it.

I'm fully bored of Eidolon hunt but hey, I still use the dragon against the Orb. Luckily I don't need Kulstar in there.

 

6 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Except that doesnt seem to be his case. His point is that every 9 out of 10 changes DE makes is to dumb down, trivialize and make an already easy game even easier.

I would never ''save words'' to please specific readers but ''dumbing down'' is a word I could have used on my original text lol
It is exactly what is happening on Warframe. When was the last time we got something buffed to hell instead of dumbed down the orbit in there?

Edited by ------.Queen-of-Blades
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1 hour ago, ------.Queen-of-Blades said:

I'm fully bored of Eidolon hunt but hey, I still use the dragon against the Orb. Luckily I don't need Kulstar in there.

I use him from time to time alongside Spira Prime. I find the chaos of trying to keep an eye on my buffs, enemy range and health while using a weapon that is slowly killing me most of the time, fun.

What sucks most is that they could've just created a mod (along with others) that removed self damage which you would install in the weapon's extra slot (I forget the name, I just don't use the slot).  

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)deathwolfclaw666 said:

I use him from time to time alongside Spira Prime. I find the chaos of trying to keep an eye on my buffs, enemy range and health while using a weapon that is slowly killing me most of the time, fun.

What sucks most is that they could've just created a mod (along with others) that removed self damage which you would install in the weapon's extra slot (I forget the name, I just don't use the slot).  

What I have heard is that Cautious Shot will help you get less knock-downs... knocking is irritating but it isn't the same as the threat of self damage. It is really sad. Not even impact status will count if I'm correct. I suggested what you just said, maybe something new for the entirety of the exilus mods not just a single mod.

There is another thing, not related to Chroma but made me even more sad... hit-kill will also be removed. Reworked maybe. Even if the enemy has enough power to do it, he will have to take shields down first... regardless of his stats and yours. It is the end of classic bigger threats on Warframe coming soon.

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6 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

you could have just said you don't know why they are removing it and are afraid of change. would have saved you a bunch of words

Agreeing with everything DE does with asinine comments isn't really supporting them nor the community, just so you know. It was more complex than that, so I'm sure not adapting my ways to please you.

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