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Explain to me the fuss about railjack.


Matheoryon
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8 minutes ago, Matheoryon said:

I like it. So what are people complaining about exactly? Its all a little nausiating to look at to get a clear picture.

Theres alot of stuff to go over so i guess ill try to poke out a dozen of them:

  1. Railjack was released way too quickly and had loads of problems with it, even more bugs then likely what the first 2 open worlds had.
  2. New shared ammo system with a tedious forge system.
  3. Really absurdly high rng-sus values on especially the capacity cost for engines, till they got it somewhat more manageable.
  4. Straight up making the intrinstic grind unbearable by making every rank double its cost so it went like 1/2/4/8/16/32/64/128/256/512. Plus a great deal of intrinstics are literally unusable or just not worth the costs they are tied with. Where the first 6 or so ranks are fine but then the costs get silly past that point, especially since some intrinstics are even worst then the lower ones.
  5. Fact flight controls are a nutty mess and aiming at ships that are hundreds of times more durable then archwing mission ones and we have to deal with a new damage type system with annoying to memorize elements when we already have an annoying 12 or so elemental table to deal with already to memorize, not even counting memorizing what health/armor types get damage boons/nerfs against what damage types.
  6. The fact that every single god damn railjack mission is just exterminate, with 8ish on each planet and there aint even any differences in loot tables besides different planets.
  7. A progression system where can be entirely skipped by just getting a ride to the veil and get MKIII parts easily with giving zero fks about MK I & II parts and even the sigma series.
  8. Fact Titanium costs are still absurd as fk if you do not have rush repair drones to skip the entire process, Which is not fun when you get a better rng-sus part and have to fund or use another drone to max that one next.
  9. The fact outside of 3 kind of MEH weapons, since one is just a tenno Supra Vandal, another is just us finally getting a 2nd Zanbato (since how else can you describe a giant katana as not being a freaking horse slaying katana) and a very glitchie gun, There is literally no reason to farm things in railjack since it has nothing to take from it besides getting more loot to just improve your railjack, and NO i do not call selling railjack salvage or avionics for plat, something to take out from it.
  10. The fact plenty of functions that were promised but instead got split from railjack entirely or never got added at all or got turned into much more inferior versions. Reason im salty on the fact we can`t do any solid upgrades to the forge or tungska cannon and are forced to use a much more terrible modding system if we want to improve those 2 in any way.
  11. The fact just farming resources LIKE FREAKING TITANIUM, takes much damn longer then actually killing all the enemies, even if your playing solo, in a veil mission, where the difference of scraping the loot in the Veil, is not really any different then scraping the loot on earth, besides stuff that fighters drop and inside the side-objective parts.
  12. Not to mention the fact that the thing stuck with the same matchmaking system as normal, because having so many freaking nodes, mean its impossible to get a public group going, its not a simple process when a host changes since you end up usually stuck in a unmodded ship even if it could be still using the same guns at the host who left and because the missions take so much longer, It makes losing all the resources with all the time taken for the mission, even more frustrating.

 

Few extra bonus ones include the Controls being rather GLITCHIE, such as you cant use dashes or move downward while in operator mode for the pilot seat and the dreaded glitch of perputally going downwards like something is wrong with your controller when your in the pilot seat but its clearly not the controller`s fault when you changed controllers and such a issue is not happening in other content.

 

Plenty of others i could say but i think that gives a basic idea but you can honestly check any video on the topic about railjack and likely get a good explanation on why it was so hated and likely still would be for a while even if D.E. by some miracle, were to fix all the issues on railjack and make it an enjoyable experience, such as this person`s video.

 

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39 minutes ago, Avienas said:

such as this person`s video.

 

Oh yes, THIS video again.

Please realise Shy is a sarcastic, negative youtuber, and consequently, her paycheck relies on finding the most negative perspective? Whether she realises it or not, she's distorting her viewpoints to what profits her. That's human nature, everyone does that to some extent. And it shows in this video. Ironically, the very same 'false advertising, always double-check what companies say' philosophy (admittedly a very good philosophy) applies to the very video it's being preached in.

Most of the points are either A: from an incredibly early demo (2018) where unlike No Mans Sky or Anthem they aren't saying anything like 'this is exactly what the final product will look like' B: the devs addressed why they changed it and/or it's in the game, just not in the way Shy seems to have interpreted it or  C : in the game entirely, and Shy is outright lying i.e. capital ship battles which she points out three times, which are in the game to the same or similar extent as they are in both demos, i.e. the actual ship is a point of interest just sitting there with a couple small cannons strapped to it.

Are there good points in the video? Of course, Shy's not stupid - in particular, the 'island' complaint, which for all intents and purposes it is, for the time being. And there aren't other factions and circumstances. Yet. Even then, note the time-dependency on those statements, since squad link is literally coming in a matter of weeks, and DE outright said that the release wasn't going to be all at once pre-launch. But all that is besides the point, being that I am slowly growing to hate this particular video of hers because people are putting it in threads and treating it as 'yeah Railjack sucks, Shy said so here'. 

 

Empyrean's absolutely not the shining star it could have been, but I still have to agree with OP. I like it - it's fun. I was expecting to not get it all at once since that's been DE's modus operandi of late due to just how their holistic releases have historically been. Was it launched too early? Probably. Was I somewhat disappointed with how much wasn't in the first phase? Absolutely, particularly in the mission variety front, likely a consequence of the previous point. Is it worth time to continue to release it in phases? In my opinion, without a shadow of a doubt.

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12 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Oh yes, THIS video again.

Please realise Shy is a sarcastic, negative youtuber, and consequently, her paycheck relies on finding the most negative perspective? Whether she realises it or not, she's distorting her viewpoints to what profits her. That's human nature, everyone does that to some extent. And it shows in this video. Ironically, the very same 'false advertising, always double-check what companies say' philosophy (admittedly a very good philosophy) applies to the very video it's being preached in.

What’s the point of someone criticizing something if people like you just set out to discredit them due to their line of work?

 

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1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

What’s the point of someone criticizing something if people like you just set out to discredit them due to their line of work?

 

Considering that their line of work directly affects their ability to criticise something? Yes, that's entirely reasonable. It's Critical Thinking 101 - does this person stand to gain from this interaction, and therefore, should I consider that they may, knowingly or otherwise, move to maximise said gains?

Exact same message that the video is trying to get across, I'd like to re-iterate.

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As of right now it's not tied in with the rest of Warframe, but it is fun to play. After this update with Squad Link, it could be what brings two different game modes together. Crossing fingers. 

The biggest problem I have is if Im doing my Railjack mission what about the rest of the game? Once this is addressed Ill be happy. You have Liches, Frame farming, Arbatration, Index, Weapon farming, Sorties, Nightwave, Prime farming, the list goes on...... Too much to do if you're not on for more then 2hours/day.

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3 hours ago, Avienas said:

[snip]

[Shy's Video]

 

 

Let's not turn this thread into just about Shy's video. Some points she exaggerated for comedic effect / hate boner amusement, but overall the the idea that all of what was promised has not 'yet' been delivered and probably won't for a long time. 

That out of the way, Avienas in the [snip] has  alot of good points about the current perception of Railjack among people who dislike it at this point.

I'm personally indifferent, because it's not close to being a finished product yet, so I don't care that much. Same reason I don't bother with archwing and haven't for the past 3-4 years until they actually flesh it out like they did the main game.

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On 2020-03-01 at 9:22 PM, Loza03 said:

Considering that their line of work directly affects their ability to criticise something? Yes, that's entirely reasonable. It's Critical Thinking 101 - does this person stand to gain from this interaction, and therefore, should I consider that they may, knowingly or otherwise, move to maximise said gains?

Exact same message that the video is trying to get across, I'd like to re-iterate.

Except it doesn’t. Shy is literally the least shy person when it comes to being honest about bad content.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Except it doesn’t. Shy is literally the least shy person when it comes to being honest about bad content.

Would you ask a carpet salesman for a suggestion on what the best place to buy carpets is, and not expect them to shill their own shop?

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It just wasn't very fun to play out the gate, and after having Liches (which I also didn't care for much) and the grind/"quest" to unlock the railjack I felt rather sour about even giving it any more time past the first packet of extermination missions.

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Would you ask a carpet salesman for a suggestion on what the best place to buy carpets is, and not expect them to shill their own shop?

Irrelevant comparison. It's a video, you watch it for free, possible advertiser money is had, that is the exchange. Nothing about watching one review on a topic prevents a person from having another, also for free. Shy has a style the same way any other game "reviewer" online does. Is Angry Joe untrustworthy because he likes to go on massive name-appropriate rants on tons of games that make him 'angry'?

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considering the context of <<<<WARFRAME>>>>>, railjack was a waste of a firework storm because it didnt had a story quest to give it a soul, thats pretty much what is wrong with it, they shouldnt have released railjack as a end of year excuse, they should have just delayed it

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21 minutes ago, KochDerFrettchen said:

Irrelevant comparison. It's a video, you watch it for free, possible advertiser money is had, that is the exchange. Nothing about watching one review on a topic prevents a person from having another, also for free. Shy has a style the same way any other game "reviewer" online does. Is Angry Joe untrustworthy because he likes to go on massive name-appropriate rants on tons of games that make him 'angry'?

 

25 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Shy doesn’t have her own game that’s competing with Warframe tho. So your logic falls apart.

Because Shy is explicitly sarcastic and satirical. Joe is not. If anything, Shy parodies played-straight review channels, given the fact she's basically the antithesis to a typical youtuber in that respect - that's her persona. Consider how many of her videos explicitly use the whole 'copy the build from the youtuber' mentality as the punchline of the joke. 

Besides, it's besides the point - like you said, advertiser money and she's also got a Patreon. If Shy suddenly dropped her sarcastic schtick and became a typical 'angry reviewer more like Angry Joe, do you think she'd keep entire her viewer base? Do you think everyone on her Patreon would keep donating to it? The answer is, unfortunately, no. She'd suffer a significant loss of revenue, because people go to Quiette Shy because they want to watch entertainment videos about a sarcastic person using text-to-speech hyperbolically ripping into things and calling her viewers scum. That is, in effect, her 'product'. Of course she's going to sell that product, that's human nature. It's also human nature to, when rewarded for a behaviour, to replicate it - and Shy is rewarded for finding the worst about everything she plays. She's going to draw a worst-case-scenario in her videos because that's what makes her money.

What I hate about that video is that people play it straight. They take the video, of which I've already pointed out the actual flaws with it as a point of criticism, and then post it to legitimise their own criticism, as the person I was originally responding to was. The video is bad criticism. Shy does not produce good criticism. Is that some stain on her character? NO. Because that's not the point of the channel.

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2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

 

Because Shy is explicitly sarcastic and satirical. Joe is not. If anything, Shy parodies played-straight review channels, given the fact she's basically the antithesis to a typical youtuber in that respect - that's her persona. Consider how many of her videos explicitly use the whole 'copy the build from the youtuber' mentality as the punchline of the joke. 

Besides, it's besides the point - like you said, advertiser money and she's also got a Patreon. If Shy suddenly dropped her sarcastic schtick and became a typical 'angry reviewer more like Angry Joe, do you think she'd keep entire her viewer base? Do you think everyone on her Patreon would keep donating to it? The answer is, unfortunately, no. She'd suffer a significant loss of revenue, because people go to Quiette Shy because they want to watch entertainment videos about a sarcastic person using text-to-speech hyperbolically ripping into things and calling her viewers scum. That is, in effect, her 'product'. Of course she's going to sell that product, that's human nature. It's also human nature to, when rewarded for a behaviour, to replicate it - and Shy is rewarded for finding the worst about everything she plays. She's going to draw a worst-case-scenario in her videos because that's what makes her money.

What I hate about that video is that people play it straight. They take the video, of which I've already pointed out the actual flaws with it as a point of criticism, and then post it to legitimise their own criticism, as the person I was originally responding to was. The video is bad criticism. Shy does not produce good criticism. Is that some stain on her character? NO. Because that's not the point of the channel.

Bad criticism? Answer this question: Are the things Shy pointed as not being in the game....are they in the game? 

By the way, here's H3adsh0t arguing the same thing 

 

Edited by (PS4)DoctorWho_90250
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1 minute ago, (PS4)DoctorWho_90250 said:

Bad criticism? Answer this question: Are the things Shy pointed as not being in the game....are they in the game? 

By the way, here's H3adsh0t arguing the same thing 

 

Several of them? Actually, yes. Like, seriously, capital ship battles are in the game to the same extent they are in the demos, neither Galleon or Cruiser does anything or flies anywhere. Most of the others are A: already addressed as to why they're cut or B: DE was forthcoming about it being a phased release.

I addressed this in the original reply. All of it. Even Railjacks evident problems and my own disappointments.

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1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Several of them? Actually, yes. Like, seriously, capital ship battles are in the game to the same extent they are in the demos, neither Galleon or Cruiser does anything or flies anywhere. Most of the others are A: already addressed as to why they're cut or B: DE was forthcoming about it being a phased release.

One of the most annoying things someone can do by releasing a vid to promote a new piece of content, yet once its actually released, its in such a poor state and practically next to nothing that was promoted, was even present except what feels like a sand box level, bare-bones level of it.

Its like the same gag as the No Mans Sky meme or Fallout 76 one, so many promises, major disappointment since it clearly was jailbait. If they were only going to release grineer stuff first, then the P.V. should of only showed grineer stuff and then have the next big convention, once they had the stuff ready, to promote the CORPUS part of stuff. Plus lets not even go over the fact on the whole promotion of the plains of diviri which if you take a good look at the content table, will likely never get released till next year, when they have the corpus expansion, the new war and likely tons of other things they especially NOW need to address such as fixes in warframe. Which at best, if they rush the New war release, when some remember them talking about a whole new region, specifically for the sentients, aka the sentient outpost as some called it, would be the sentient equilvency of the kuva fortress. Which  we got some sparse bits of a rather meh kind of structure with the sentient ship.

 

Ultimately, If D.E. plans to promote content, i would expect them to make sure said content would come out within the next half a year or so at the very most, since no one is a fan of the waiting game especially since the content looks alot more promising then what it actually would be. Aka the what we expect and the what we actually get trope

Just to further add to the point, we have not really seen anything about CORPUS railjack missions or ADDITIONAL missions past what was teased with scarlet spear, aka squad link & sentient focused combat and chattered about the corpus ship revamps. Me haps wants to wonder if D.E. plans to narrow down the current railjack mission count to preferably 2 per planet for the exterminates and include a new mode for each planet for a different type of mission like a main objective focused on RAIDING a large galleon/capital-ship maybe???? :/

Edited by Avienas
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1 minute ago, Avienas said:

One of the most annoying things someone can do by releasing a vid to promote a new piece of content, yet once its actually released, its in such a poor state and practically next to nothing that was promoted, was even present except what feels like a sand box level, bare-bones level of it.

Its like the same gag as the No Mans Sky meme or Fallout 76 one, so many promises, major disappointment since it clearly was jailbait. If they were only going to release grineer stuff first, then the P.V. should of only showed grineer stuff and then have the next big convention, once they had the stuff ready, to promote the CORPUS part of stuff. Plus lets not even go over the fact on the whole promotion of the plains of diviri which if you take a good look at the content table, will likely never get released till next year, when they have the corpus expansion, the new war and likely tons of other things they especially NOW need to address such as fixes in warframe. Which at best, if they rush the New war release, when some remember them talking about a whole new region, specifically for the sentients, aka the sentient outpost as some called it, would be the sentient equilvency of the kuva fortress. Which  we got some sparse bits of a rather meh kind of structure with the sentient ship.

 

Ultimately, If D.E. plans to promote content, i would expect them to make sure said content would come out within the next half a year or so at the very most, since no one is a fan of the waiting game especially since the content looks alot more promising then what it actually would be. Aka the what we expect and the what we actually get trope

Just to further add to the point, we have not really seen anything about CORPUS railjack missions or ADDITIONAL missions past what was teased with scarlet spear, aka squad link & sentient focused combat and chattered about the corpus ship revamps. Me haps wants to wonder if D.E. plans to narrow down the current railjack mission count to preferably 2 per planet for the exterminates and include a new mode for each planet for a different type of mission like a main objective focused on RAIDING a large galleon/capital-ship maybe???? 😕

 

On 2020-03-02 at 3:04 AM, Loza03 said:

Was it launched too early? Probably. Was I somewhat disappointed with how much wasn't in the first phase? Absolutely, particularly in the mission variety front, likely a consequence of the previous point. Is it worth time to continue to release it in phases? In my opinion, without a shadow of a doubt.

 

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On 2020-03-01 at 7:33 PM, Matheoryon said:

I like it. So what are people complaining about exactly?

Here's a small summary of some of the issues (glad to hear you like it by the way, I enjoy it in concept but not execution myself):

  1. Generally speaking it has a high time/resource investment which caused a limited section of the playerbase to take part it in (hence the lowering of costs coming Soontm).
  2. The difficulty curve is very confusing due to a basic modless Railjack being less durable in the starter Earth missions than a modless Mag is at comparable levels.
  3. MK1 and MK2 components are generally useless because of being very minor increases, they also have prices comparable to some MK3 research components which further devalued them.
  4. The complete lack of a tutorial causes no end of confusion for new players to the system, many not even knowing what Omni is because it is barely explained in am audio blip from Cy (onboarding is another thing coming Soontm).
  5. The lack of variety is a common point of contention as every mission remains same-y from start to finish.
  6. Titanium farming as an absolute [expletive deleted] and other resources also still suffer from severe grind issues.
  7. Solo options are mostly non-existent outside of parking your Railjack in a asteroid and doing everything in Archwing.

These are just 7 of the major highlights that come to mind, overall some people may have other issues as well, but this is just my knowledge of the major hot-button reasons.

Edited by Aldain
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Honestly the variety is what kills it for me. 

Don't get me wrong I love the system, even though it has major flaws.

 

1) Misson variation is the major downfall for me, every mission is the same with increasing difficulty via level and enemy count. 

We need to have missions other than extermination with the odd assassinate an elite in a ship while the rest of the team is messing about with crewships and stupid bloody fighters. 

Sabotages where we have to knock out a ships defences from the outside while a tenno goes in and blows the reactor or weapons would be awesome. 

Defences where a tenno is on a point of interest defending (even a mobile) against waves of ground troops while the crew is in space halting reinforcement boarders and such. 

These are what we were led to believe would be coming with tennocon reveals these past two years. 

2) Enemy scaling is insane, it shouldn't make more sense to use amesha invulnerability to chesse the missions. 

The main ship needs more survivability especially early game. 

3) Mod management is silly, with the reactors requiring insane rng for even a reasonable amount of usable points... And even then you are limited. 

4) The weapons themselves have uses but they all go back to enemy scaling, they all seem a bit anemic. 

I don't mind the grind and the farm, I just wish folk couldn't mess up my farm by going back to dojo from my own railjack while I'm getting resources. 

5) And that leads me to the final flaw in the system we have, there is no clear/simple way to leave post mission if you are not the host. Yes you can leave on mission success screen but it feels so scummy and nasty. 

 

Again I love the idea and I can see the potential, it just seems like it fails to deliver even basic functionality 60% of the time, with folk not wanting to be efficient crew helping with fires and boarding teams as well as being  gunners, engineers or away crew. 

God elp us all when we have sentient boarders in coming update. 

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Simply put, the content of empyrean doesn't have much connection to the "main part" of warframe. Anything gained inside RJ stays in RJ, except rank8 intrinsic which affects the performance of archwing.

The frustrating amount of resources required toroll RNG also sinks most people motivation to grind for the best gear available.

This is why once you are done with empyrean, there is pretty much no reason to go back.

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