About Self-Damage and opinions

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

oh, please. you talk as if you don't know that there are other Damage Multiplying Abilities in the game, and that our Stats are just really high in the first place.

No I don't. I aknowledged that in the last sentence.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Because as explained above, it is not just people spamming projectiles, there were legitimate issues beyond the player's control, no player has really that much power over DE and you know it, they have ignored player feedback when it suits them so much that it is almost a meme.

Ally collision is a legitimate concern, but it also applies to things which aren't self-damage. It's just a more immediate negative feedback than having your buddies obstruct your otherwise well-aimed shots and having to take another one to kill the intended target. Therefore, removing self-damage is not justified for this circumstance.

(Not that DE have had the best track record treating causes versus symptoms. Trinity Link meta comes to mind, where they could have stopped players and enemies alike from stacking 100% damage immunity through additive resistances. Enemies still can become immune to our damage arbitrarily, Trinity just can't self-damage through the link any more)

[VanFanel1980mx]

2 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Ally collision is a legitimate concern, but it also applies to things which aren't self-damage. It's just a more immediate negative feedback than having your buddies obstruct your otherwise well-aimed shots and having to take another one to kill the intended target. Therefore, removing self-damage is not justified for this circumstance.

(Not that DE have had the best track record treating causes versus symptoms. Trinity Link meta comes to mind, where they could have stopped players and enemies alike from stacking 100% damage immunity through additive resistances. Enemies still can become immune to our damage arbitrarily, Trinity just can't self-damage through the link any more)

That's the point.

[_Urakaze_]

1小时前 , TheLexiConArtist 说:

In the spirit of daytime television everywhere, here's one I prepared earlier!

 

Although some of that rarest actual intelligent discussion in a previous time I've brought it up did point out that it's not quite as simple as throwing that formula into the code block that hits the player with their damage. Because of Multishot, it has to be baked into the projectile in advance or the multishot would allow bypassing the diminishing return.

But it's still fairly simple to solve. Projectile multishot already does a similar function with crits - the gain from the critting projectiles actually spreads evenly across the non-critting projectiles as well, white and yellow numbers from the same single trigger pull appear to deal the same damage. In the same way, the 'total outgoing damage' on trigger-pull can be calculated and divided among the projectiles (possibly also over the damage events for triggered self-damage weapons like Penta, though this could be trickier in the spaghetticcode, and isn't strictly necessary).

hell you don't even need that. Just throw a percentage based damage and be done. like 50% of your max health as true damage for slow firing explosives, and something like 10% for automatics like acceltra

[_Urakaze_]

I bring gara to rad sorties for the sole purpose of sealing my teammates in molten glass

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 minute ago, _Urakaze_ said:

hell you don't even need that. Just throw a percentage based damage and be done. like 50% of your max health as true damage for slow firing explosives, and something like 10% for automatics like acceltra

Nope, that causes other problems. Unmodded Loki should be at a greater risk from an explosive at the feet than a 6000 health Inaros. You don't see bomb disposal squads rolling up in shorts and t-shirts, do you?

Cautious Shot could still exist (at a heavily nerfed level, because 99% would be colossal overkill after the scaling) for fine-tuning the result of the equation to fit a player's taste in frame, but realistically, if the numbers are in the right place for the downscaling, there's always a point of 'usable with non-fatal risk' as well as a reachable all-out 'fatal overkill' tier.

[Oldskinzz]

Everyone who's mad about being teamkilled in rad sorties clearly has forgotten Mesmer Skin exists.

[Aldain]

9 hours ago, Lion said:

The Wukong and Vauban reworks in particular made them so fun to use now

Or in Vauban's case "Actually worth using period".

[RunningChaos]

DE must just make Chroma work like Mirage. Have hie armor and damage ability be duration based.(With decent duration on damage and make it that you can recast his armor)

[TARINunit9]

21 hours ago, (PS4)iheartcampersz said:

Um guys. He was already reworked. He had his time, let him die respectably 

No he wasn't. He got a tweak to one power. That's not a rework

[TeTsuo1224]

I really like the play of chroma.

so if the new update make chroma cant get full power up by 3 ability immediately, i will be really upset 😭

[(PSN)robotwars7]

no thanks, Rad Sorties are bad enough. we don't need more ways to troll other players.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I think the changes are good, but they will also just have another thing for players to be annoyed at. instead of an outright suicide, you simply end up knocked back, staggered and otherwise compromised, allowing the enemy to attack you freely without you being able to retaliate until you recover. I can see the knockbacks still being annoying for players, and then there's a chance of being sent flying off a cliff or edge, respawning you but also taking away your active powers. self-damage will still be something of an issue, just not quite as bad as it is now. and we've all been in a scenario where we take a dive off a cliff, and respawn right in the path of a Bombard Rocket, Ballista, etc., and get downed before we even get a chance to react or even see what hit us.

I would be fine with self damage staying if all explosive weapons were truly insanely powerful, with armor bypassing and enough damage to easily kill above level 70 etc. then it really would be risk vs reward: overwhelming firepower at the cost of potential self harm. but of course DE would not allow Launchers to be this powerful. still, i think these changes will be a net positive for most.. at least until Mirage + Bramma becomes the new meta....

[White_Matter]

Or just rework the damn frame. Which should have been done ages ago. 

Hist 1st is meaningless(granted most 1st abilities are trash), and I don't recall having the need to use his 4. His 2nd and 3rd are the only abilities worth using, and honestly they should be merged anywyas.

Yeah, just rework Chroma. 

[oohshiny]

I am not blaming other players for the change, but the amount of toxicity the pro-remove crowd are bringing to the discussion (calling others idiots, crybabies etc) is really worrying. Anything which creates that violent a reaction amongst the playerbase should give DE massive concern.

[Aldain]

Self damage can rot in the same dumpster as the unavoidable Lich backbreaker revive tax.

I don't care what anyone says, anything that kills or can kill a player instantly for reasons that outside of a players control or ability to predict (allies running in front of you and RNG Requiems respectively) deserves to die a brutal Doom-level death.

[TeTsuo1224]

talk me about chroma, how to play it without selfdamage?

[TheLexiConArtist]

8 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Self damage can rot in the same dumpster as the unavoidable Lich backbreaker revive tax.

I don't care what anyone says, anything that kills or can kill a player instantly for reasons that outside of a players control or ability to predict (allies running in front of you and RNG Requiems respectively) deserves to die a brutal Doom-level death.

So remove the ally collision, not the self-damage? Everything else is objectively within your capability to predict and control, and allies getting in the way is annoying for everything else without a reason to connect with them, not just the things which explode instantly upon doing so. Even the majority of self-damage sources either don't explode or give you time to react if an ally crosses the pipe. Stupid to remove self-damage wholesale from that argument.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Stupid to remove self-damage wholesale from that argument.

You're trying to convince the wrong person, my heels are dug so deep into the dirt that a tornado wouldn't move me on that subject.

I won't argue the point, because all that does is create a big flame war and/or derail the thread, my stance is my stance, you're free to disagree and I won't begrudge you your choice to.

[Cubewano]

22 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Self damage can rot in the same dumpster as the unavoidable Lich backbreaker revive tax.

I don't care what anyone says, anything that kills or can kill a player instantly for reasons that outside of a players control or ability to predict (allies running in front of you and RNG Requiems respectively) deserves to die a brutal Doom-level death.

By that logic enemies should be removed from the game, their spawns, accuracy, locations, priority order, unit type, etc are all relatively rng aspects than can result in an instant death should the instance fit, just like self damage weapons. Everything in a game can't be hyper safe and without risk/failure elements, or well I suppose it can but I wouldn't think that the best design decision to go for. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Cubewano

[VanFanel1980mx]

1 hour ago, oohshiny said:

but the amount of toxicity the pro-remove crowd are bringing to the discussion

I see exactly the same from the "keep-sd" crowd as well, some people saying difficulty will be forever gone.

 

19 minutes ago, TeTsuo1224 said:

talk me about chroma, how to play it without selfdamage?

By letting the enemy hit you while you keep an eye on your health, at least that's how I do it.

[TeTsuo1224]

1分钟前 , VanFanel1980mx 说:

我从“ keep-sd”人群中也看到了完全相同的情况，有人说困难将永远消失。

 

在保持您的健康的同时，让敌人击中您，至少我是这样做的。

 

archwing will cancel the 3 ability,that means chroma need stand there and wait to get damage each eidolon. maybe increase 1- 2mins for each one.

then, how can it make 5*3 eidolon hunt?

[Fallen77]

It's a good thing that it was removed.

For those "so good at the game", it won't change a thing for you right ? Since you can predict at all time when your kavat is gonna TP / jump in front of you right ?

For the oh so poor chroma mains that will have to actually play Chroma's kit as intended during hunts, get over yourself. Getting such armor and damage boost by simply shooting once at your feet was ridiculous and you know it. No ability that works around taking damage should work by simply shooting yourself, that defits the purpose of managing threat/reward.

What is left ? People wondering about realism in a space robot zombie ninja with magic powers video game... Need I say more.

So yes, it's a very good change, no reason to cling onto selfdamage, no reason to barther for keeping some selfdamage, appart for those that previously went high and beyond to prove how pivotal it is to WF gameplay loop (spoiler, it's not).

[VanFanel1980mx]

2 minutes ago, TeTsuo1224 said:

 

archwing will cancel the 3 ability,that means chroma need stand there and wait to get damage each eidolon. maybe increase 1- 2mins for each one.

then, how can it make 5*3 eidolon hunt?

That's why you use K-Drive instead.

[Cubewano]

5 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

It's a good thing that it was removed.

For those "so good at the game", it won't change a thing for you right ? Since you can predict at all time when your kavat is gonna TP / jump in front of you right ?

For the oh so poor chroma mains that will have to actually play Chroma's kit as intended during hunts, get over yourself. Getting such armor and damage boost by simply shooting once at your feet was ridiculous and you know it. No ability that works around taking damage should work by simply shooting yourself, that defits the purpose of managing threat/reward.

What is left ? People wondering about realism in a space robot zombie ninja with magic powers video game... Need I say more.

So yes, it's a very good change, no reason to cling onto selfdamage, no reason to barther for keeping some selfdamage, appart for those that previously went high and beyond to prove how pivotal it is to WF gameplay loop (spoiler, it's not).

Interesting that you decide to argue with a fictional strawman for your defense instead of addressing some of the actual arguments being made in this thread. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Cubewano